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Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
#351575
06/17/12 08:23 AM
06/17/12 08:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,004 Millbrook, AL
leroyb
OP
8 point
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OP
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OK so I copied the following from the Alabama Hunting and fishing digest, Hunting and Fishing Regulations $ Info page under Prohibited meathods of hunting. It is illegal to: 22.Hunt using poison, explosives or chemicals to include deer blocks, molasses blocks, mineral blocks, chemical licks, and similar products. Deer may be hunted over plain salt licks containing no other minerals or chemicals. There have been may threads on here about using Di-Cal / Trace mineral salt / feed salt for salt lick sites and I know most hunting clubs around use some variation of this mixture. So is it legal to hunt in the "Area" of these licks? I know there will still be traces of the mineral and Di-cal in the ground once season is in and I would hate to see someone get a ticket for it.
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: leroyb]
#351593
06/17/12 08:49 AM
06/17/12 08:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 31,681 Slidell, La
perchjerker
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
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Posts: 31,681
Slidell, La
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Most put the licks out to benefit the deer and not hunt over. Since deer use salt most in hotter months there is very little activety during hunting season. You need to direct the legality question to B'ham Fred. I doubt you'd get a ticket for hunting 50 yds from an inactive lick. I always put mine near a food plot and never had any problems.
Thomas Jefferson. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Life is too short to only hunt and fish on weekends!
If being a dumbass was fatal some of you would be on your death bed!
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: leroyb]
#351595
06/17/12 08:55 AM
06/17/12 08:55 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,159 alabama
BhamFred
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
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alabama
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First rule Leroy....do not rely on the "digest" for info on laws/regs. Go to the real laws/regs....
I've never heard of anyone getting a ticket for hunting near an established "salt" lick that had Di-Cal/minerals/salt in it. Technically it would be illegal but I would see no problem with a watered-in lick.
A lick in Nov/DecJan fails to meet the definition of bait because it is not an attractant to deer in those months.
I never did write any bait tickets for hunting over a red mineral block in the years I worked.
Now a "molasses/corn" block was a different story, I wrote tickets for them if near the stand.
Eddie will disagree with most of what I've said...
troy
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: leroyb]
#351596
06/17/12 08:57 AM
06/17/12 08:57 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,407 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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OK so I copied the following from the Alabama Hunting and fishing digest, Hunting and Fishing Regulations $ Info page under Prohibited meathods of hunting. It is illegal to: 22.Hunt using poison, explosives or chemicals to include deer blocks, molasses blocks, mineral blocks, chemical licks, and similar products. Deer may be hunted over plain salt licks containing no other minerals or chemicals. There have been may threads on here about using Di-Cal / Trace mineral salt / feed salt for salt lick sites and I know most hunting clubs around use some variation of this mixture. So is it legal to hunt in the "Area" of these licks? I know there will still be traces of the mineral and Di-cal in the ground once season is in and I would hate to see someone get a ticket for it. The Law in the Alabama code states you CAN NOT hunt over plain salt. For years the DCNR has condoned hunting over plain salt. Last year they OKd hunting over Trophy Rocks. Not by law or reg just Comish's word. Trophy Rock is a weak version of di-cal and trace mineral mix. I guess all we gotta do to be legal is throw a Trophy Rock in our di-cal/ trace mineral hole and we're legal. The salt in all cases is the attractent. Someone gets caught hunting over it with deep pockets and GW and courts push it, can you say "winning" in Alabama Supreme Court. 49er 'll have lot's to say on this and I'll say he's right on this one.
Last edited by 2Dogs; 06/17/12 09:34 AM.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: leroyb]
#351612
06/17/12 09:45 AM
06/17/12 09:45 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
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Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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leroyb, So is it legal to hunt in the "Area" of these licks? First, let me reiterate what troy told you. If you rely on the Hunter's Digest, your ignorance of the law may get you in trouble, but, then again, it's vaguness and conflict with the law could even help your case if you get a ticket. So what is the definition of an "area"? Is it two feet or 20 miles? The legislature cannot agree on a defintion, and the DCNR can't do it either. Both have tried more than once, and both have failed more than once. It's my opinion that both our legislators and the DCNR know that 9-11-244 and 9-11-245 are unconstitutionally vague as currently enforced. Neither wants to bear the blame for allowing hunting over bait. Both know that the courts are bound to strike such vague laws down if they are challenged with competent legal representation. In that case, the courts will take the blame for allowing hunting over bait. That's what they prefer, IMO. In the mean time, the DCNR will continue to collect hunter's paychecks. There is no incentive for them to clear this up. If you want to read our game and fish laws and the Regulation Book for yourself, let me know and I'll post the links for you.
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: leroyb]
#351624
06/17/12 10:20 AM
06/17/12 10:20 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,407 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,407
Boxes Cove
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Already 4 good post on the subject. One on the fact that by law you're not supposed to hunt over salt and/or trophy rock,but DCNR says it's OK; one on the area aspect, and one from a retired GW. Should be crystal clear. NOT!
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: BhamFred]
#351641
06/17/12 10:47 AM
06/17/12 10:47 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
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Warrior River Country
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First rule Leroy....do not rely on the "digest" for info on laws/regs. Go to the real laws/regs....
I've never heard of anyone getting a ticket for hunting near an established "salt" lick that had Di-Cal/minerals/salt in it. Technically it would be illegal but I would see no problem with a watered-in lick.
A lick in Nov/DecJan fails to meet the definition of bait because it is not an attractant to deer in those months.
I never did write any bait tickets for hunting over a red mineral block in the years I worked.
Now a "molasses/corn" block was a different story, I wrote tickets for them if near the stand.
Eddie will disagree with most of what I've said...
troy I agree with a lot of what you said, but I also know that another game warden may come to a different conclusion. Laws that leave game wardens without clearly defined standards to enforce the law do not give fair notice to hunters who are supposed to be able to determine what is expected of them from the language of the law or rule without reliance on an enforcement officer's interpretation. The United States Supreme Court has stated the following about the void for vagueness challenge:
"It is a basic principle of due process that an enactment is void for vagueness if its prohibitions are not clearly defined. Vague laws offend several important values. First, because we assume that man is free to steer between lawful and unlawful conduct, we insist that laws give the person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable opportunity to know what is prohibited, so that he may act accordingly. Vague laws may trap the innocent by not providing fair warning. Second, if arbitrary and discriminatory enforcement is to be prevented, laws must provide explicit standards for those who apply them. A vague law impermissibly delegates basic policy matters to policemen, judges, and juries for resolution on an ad hoc and subjective basis, with the attendant dangers of arbitrary and discriminatory application. Third, but related, where a vague statute `abut[s] upon sensitive areas of basic First Amendment freedoms,' it `operates to inhibit the exercise of [those] freedoms.' Uncertain meanings inevitably lead citizens to `"steer far wider of the unlawful zone" ... than if the boundaries of the forbidden areas where clearly marked.'" Grayned v. City of Rockford, 408 U.S. 104, 108-09, 92 S.Ct. 2294, 2298-99, 33 L.Ed.2d 222 (1972), quoting, in part, Baggett v. Bullitt, 377 U.S. 360, 372, 84 S.Ct. 1316, 1323, 12 L.Ed.2d 377 (1964). See also United States v. Harriss, 347 U.S. 612, 617-18, 74 S.Ct. 808, 812, 98 L.Ed. 989 (1954). To withstand a challenge of vagueness, a statute must: 1) give a person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable opportunity to know what is prohibited, and, 2) provide explicit standards to those who apply the laws. Grayned. (emphasis added) Culbreath v. State, 667 So. 2d 156 - Ala: Court of Criminal Appeals 1995If leroyb is a person of ordinary intelligence, as I assume that he is, why does he need to ask these questions about what is required of him? The courts say he shouldn't have to ask if he has read the law and the rules.
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: joshm28]
#351725
06/17/12 03:12 PM
06/17/12 03:12 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,004 Millbrook, AL
leroyb
OP
8 point
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OP
8 point
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,004
Millbrook, AL
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I have never been accused of being ordinary. Not sure where my intelligence stacks up but I did gradjate from high school. Seriously, I never thought about it until I was telling someone what we used at our club and they told me that they thought that was illegal to hunt over anything except plain salt in Alabama. I figured I would get a wide range of answers to my question.
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: leroyb]
#351741
06/17/12 03:52 PM
06/17/12 03:52 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,407 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,407
Boxes Cove
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leroyb, I'm not good at posting links, but look up Alabama code 9-11-244. deals with hunting by means of bait. This is the law and not the CAB or Comish. You can see why there is so much confusion. It puts salt in the same catagory as hunting over a pile of corn.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: leroyb]
#351816
06/17/12 06:38 PM
06/17/12 06:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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People often overlook the fact that there are two laws that forbid hunting with the aid of bait. There are other methods of hunting that are forbidden by law in addition to baiting: Section 9-11-244 Taking, etc., of protected birds or animals by means of bait.
No person at any time shall take, catch, kill or attempt to take, catch or kill any bird or animal protected by law or regulation of the State of Alabama by means, aid or use, directly or indirectly, of any bait such as shelled, shucked or unshucked corn or of wheat or other grain, salt or any other feed whatsoever that has been so deposited, placed, distributed or scattered as to constitute for such birds or animals a lure, attraction or enticement to, on or over the area where such hunter or hunters are attempting to kill or take them; provided, that such birds or animals may be taken under properly shocked corn and standing crops of corn, wheat or other grain or feed and grains scattered solely as a result of normal agricultural harvesting and provided further, migratory birds may be hunted under the most recent provisions established by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service or regulations promulgated by the Commissioner of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources within the limits of the federal regulations.
(Acts 1951, No. 1001, p. 1672, §1; Acts 1991, No. 91-591, p. 1093, §1.) Section 9-11-245 Unlawful methods of hunting birds or animals protected by law or regulation.
No person shall at any time make use of any pitfall, deadfall, baited field, cage, trap, net, pen, baited hook, snare, poison, explosive, or chemical for the purpose of injuring, capturing, or killing birds or animals protected by law or regulation of this state. This section shall not prevent the trapping of animals classified as fur-bearing animals by a duly licensed fur catcher. It shall be legal to use a scaffold for gun hunting of all legal game species except wild turkey and to use a scaffold for bow hunting of all legal game species.
(Acts 1951, No. 1001, p. 1672, §2; Acts 1975, No. 195, p. 681, §1; Acts 1995, No. 95-563, p. 1174, §1.) All of these animals are protected by law or regulation: ______________________________________________________________ 220-2-.06 Game Animals Designated
The following animals are hereby designated as game animals: Bear, Beaver, Coyote, Deer, Opossum, Rabbit, Raccoon, Squirrel, Nutria, Fox, Mountain Lion (Cougar), Groundhog, Bobcat, Red Wolf, Feral Swine (Wild Hog) ______________________________________________________________ 220-2-.04 Game Birds Designated
Resident Game Birds: Bobwhite Quail, Ruffed Grouse, Wild Turkey; Migratory Game Birds: Wild Duck, Wild Goose, Brant, Rail, Sora, Coot, (Poule d'Eau or Mud Hen), Jacksnipe (Wilson Snipe), Woodcock, Dove, Gallinule, and Merganser. ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: 2Dogs]
#351827
06/17/12 07:01 PM
06/17/12 07:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,004 Millbrook, AL
leroyb
OP
8 point
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OP
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Posts: 2,004
Millbrook, AL
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Below is the code 2Dogs referenced. Interesting that this code groups all birds and animals protected by law or regulation together. I remember years back a story of guys using rocksalt to get doves to go to a pond for water and supposidly getting a ticket for using it. (I don't know how or why I just remember the story) If that is true I can see where it would be and should be illegal, but I agree that putting out a salt lick for deer is much different since it is not an attractant during the legal hunting season and it sounds like at least by some comments that it is veiwed as such. It sounds to me like the code below was written more for the birds.
What a confusing mess!
Alabama code 9-11-244 No person at any time shall take, catch, kill or attempt to take, catch or kill any bird or animal protected by law or regulation of the State of Alabama by means, aid or use, directly or indirectly, of any bait such as shelled, shucked or unshucked corn or of wheat or other grain, salt or any other feed whatsoever that has been so deposited, placed, distributed or scattered as to constitute for such birds or animals a lure, attraction or enticement to, on or over the area where such hunter or hunters are attempting to kill or take them; provided, that such birds or animals may be taken under properly shocked corn and standing crops of corn, wheat or other grain or feed and grains scattered solely as a result of normal agricultural harvesting and provided further, migratory birds may be hunted under the most recent provisions established by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service or regulations promulgated by the Commissioner of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources within the limits of the federal regulations.
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: leroyb]
#351831
06/17/12 07:08 PM
06/17/12 07:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,004 Millbrook, AL
leroyb
OP
8 point
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OP
8 point
Joined: Nov 2004
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Millbrook, AL
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Wow 49er I like Section 9-11-245. I'm gonna go out and put me up some scaffolds. LOL I only saw that used one time on a lease we had in Coosa County a loooong time ago. I guess that code was written by someone that didn't know what an elevated shooting house or a treestand is.
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: leroyb]
#351839
06/17/12 07:16 PM
06/17/12 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,407 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,407
Boxes Cove
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Below is the code 2Dogs referenced. Interesting that this code groups all birds and animals protected by law or regulation together. I remember years back a story of guys using rocksalt to get doves to go to a pond for water and supposidly getting a ticket for using it. (I don't know how or why I just remember the story) If that is true I can see where it would be and should be illegal, but I agree that putting out a salt lick for deer is much different since it is not an attractant during the legal hunting season and it sounds like at least by some comments that it is veiwed as such. It sounds to me like the code below was written more for the birds.
What a confusing mess!
Alabama code 9-11-244 No person at any time shall take, catch, kill or attempt to take, catch or kill any bird or animal protected by law or regulation of the State of Alabama by means, aid or use, directly or indirectly, of any bait such as shelled, shucked or unshucked corn or of wheat or other grain, salt or any other feed whatsoever that has been so deposited, placed, distributed or scattered as to constitute for such birds or animals a lure, attraction or enticement to, on or over the area where such hunter or hunters are attempting to kill or take them; provided, that such birds or animals may be taken under properly shocked corn and standing crops of corn, wheat or other grain or feed and grains scattered solely as a result of normal agricultural harvesting and provided further, migratory birds may be hunted under the most recent provisions established by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service or regulations promulgated by the Commissioner of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources within the limits of the federal regulations. You got it!^^^^ Now what about bushogging corn? I've heard you can't at all, the farmer only can, or anyone can bush hog standing crops and you can hunt over them. That what this says? Some say bushogging $7+ a bushel corn is "normal agricultural harvesting",when most of the field was harvested normally and removed for use away from the field. PLEASE! Anyone think harvesting and removing 75 acres of a 100 acre corn field, then BUSHOGGING the other 25 is NOT baiting, tell us why.
Last edited by 2Dogs; 06/17/12 08:34 PM.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: leroyb]
#351842
06/17/12 07:22 PM
06/17/12 07:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,004 Colbert County
Teacher One
14 point
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14 point
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Colbert County
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I'm 53 years old and I have never heard of anyone getting a ticket for hunting over a salt or a mineral lick. It may just be me, but I don't think this is what law enforcement is trying to govern. I don't think a mineral site would give a hunter an unfair advantage no matter what they put in it-mineral wise. Almost every club I know of has at least a few mineral licks to "help" the deer. I don't think I have ever saw a deer in a salt lick either while hunting.
I can't stand a thief.
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: 49er]
#351875
06/17/12 08:10 PM
06/17/12 08:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997 Warrior River Country
49er
Booner
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Booner
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Warrior River Country
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Since this thread is about baiting, some of you might be interested to know that DCNR officials had to shut down one of their own hunts due to baiting in recent years: Tuscaloosa News article, Sept, 2010 link: Officials: Dove shoot field in line with laws Here's some caselaw from Federal Court that might be interesting to some of you who dove hunt: link: US v Marston I wouldn't recommend using white salt to bait doves, btw.
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: 49er]
#351888
06/17/12 08:28 PM
06/17/12 08:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,407 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,407
Boxes Cove
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Since this thread is about baiting, some of you might be interested to know that DCNR officials had to shut down one of their own hunts due to baiting in recent years: Tuscaloosa News article, Sept, 2010 link: Officials: Dove shoot field in line with laws Here's some caselaw from Federal Court that might be interesting to some of you who dove hunt: link: US v Marston I wouldn't recommend using white salt to bait doves, btw. Well now...... Wonder why they don't shut down parts of management areas that have row crop land, when the biologist tells the farmer to open the screens up on the combines and shell the landowners (us) part of the crop onto the ground? Then it's hunted less than 10 days. I guess that's " normal agricultural harvest"
Last edited by 2Dogs; 06/17/12 08:38 PM.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Salt/Mineral Licks Legal?
[Re: 2Dogs]
#351962
06/17/12 10:46 PM
06/17/12 10:46 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,948 Round ‘bout there
Clem
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
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Round ‘bout there
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Wonder why they don't shut down parts of management areas that have row crop land, Because the federal agent with the reputed ax to grind who shut down the dove hunt hasn't gotten around to the WMAs yet.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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