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Changing ph without liming agent? #3501956
10/05/21 09:21 PM
10/05/21 09:21 PM
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blount county alabama
jwalker77 Online confused OP
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Is it possible? Is there anything you can do to or plant on a piece of property to balance the ph without adding lime or another liming agent?

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3502016
10/05/21 10:22 PM
10/05/21 10:22 PM
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Athens, AL
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By balancing I assume you mean raise the PH. Legumes fix nitrogen but I've never heard of a planting that would raise PH.

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3502151
10/06/21 08:17 AM
10/06/21 08:17 AM
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My field that I’m always showing was a horse pasture when we first bought the place that hadn’t had any horses on it in a number of years. The first time I ever planted it as a food plot I sent in a test and the pH showed 6.8…….After several years of planting it the traditional way I sent in another sample and my pH was at 5.1………I look back now and know that what occurred was that I burnt up the OM layer……

What was occurring back then and what is occurring again now that I manage it differently is that a new soil layer has built up on the surface of rich decomposed organic matter……The layer I have now is around a foot deep…….Now, you can take a soil sample from that OM layer and compare it to the layer below that it has been built on top of and the pH will still be drastically different even today…….Basically I have a layer of soil on top with a pH of 6.8 again while the subsoil underneath it is still a harsh 5.0…….I suspect this is likely the case for many folks.

I say all of that as a round about way of getting to your question……pH is not just all about lime and CA……..It’s a balance of all the + and – ions………I think it will take some time but I do believe you can change pH overtime without lime in that top layer of organic soil I’m talking about…….I think what is occurring is that the plants are mining positively charged nutrients from the soil through their roots and bringing to the surface via plant material……This OM layer has a high holding capacity for these nutrients so they are caught and stored in this layer as the plant material decomposes and they build over time……I think the building of these nutrients is likely gonna effect the pH of that layer……

That being said......I still brought in lime and that seems like the quickest way of fixing pH

Last edited by CNC; 10/06/21 08:20 AM.

"As to methods, there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods.”— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: chillinhunt] #3502507
10/06/21 03:12 PM
10/06/21 03:12 PM
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blount county alabama
jwalker77 Online confused OP
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Originally Posted by chillinhunt
By balancing I assume you mean raise the PH. Legumes fix nitrogen but I've never heard of a planting that would raise PH.

I mean most plants prefer around 6.5-7, which is balanced, neither acidic or base.

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3502512
10/06/21 03:16 PM
10/06/21 03:16 PM
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blount county alabama
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CNC, i think you could build the soil and make it better naturally. It would take several years. Then you would have to be selective about what you planted in order to keep it that way. I guess my thoughts were that if a soils history is what causes it to be poor soil or fertile soil, acid or base, one could change that over time. Might not be a very productive way to do it.

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3502520
10/06/21 03:38 PM
10/06/21 03:38 PM
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Macon Co
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We all start off with a base soil type determined by things like the type of rock that’s deep in the soil profile or things like south Alabama being under the ocean millions of years ago……glaciers, etc…….That base soil type cannot be changed…….It is what it is……It’s some combination of sand, silt, and/or clay…….

Now, these soils regardless of sand or clay are all meant to be a two part recipe of “parent material” from below combined with decomposing organic material from above…… Where we can have the most impact is with how we manage the organic matter portion of this two-part recipe. Most people’s fields are broken down to nothing but the parent material.


"As to methods, there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods.”— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3506424
10/12/21 12:36 PM
10/12/21 12:36 PM
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Auburn, AL
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CNC is right!

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3506588
10/12/21 04:43 PM
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I learned something this year with the fields that I planted last fall, that weren't disked last fall or this spring, but rather I just broadcast seed out on top. When I got into them with the subsoiler, guess what I found? Earthworms. That is the only time I have found earthworms in soil out there.

What I have heard Dr. Grant Woods say over and over is disking is an earthworm killer, and worm casings are some of the best fertilizer there is. His rotation is to plant soybeans in the spring, and then cereal grains and brassica's in the fall, using a drill. He doesn't disk.

So that is what I have been working on, and that is precisely why I bought a flail mower. I can run out and broadcast seed into standing anything, then run over it with the flail mower and cover the seed with a layer of mulch. The more mulch, the better it grows. And if you leave it, you have a really nice root structure in the ground.

And on my lease, what I have also noticed is down in a creek bottom the soil is nice, dark and rich, but the further you get away from it, the more rocky and crappy it gets.

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3506601
10/12/21 04:59 PM
10/12/21 04:59 PM
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What is that method called Lockjaw?

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3506603
10/12/21 05:04 PM
10/12/21 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jwalker77
What is that method called Lockjaw?

Throw n mow 🤣


They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Ben Franklin
Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jb20] #3506620
10/12/21 05:40 PM
10/12/21 05:40 PM
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blount county alabama
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Originally Posted by jb20
Originally Posted by jwalker77
What is that method called Lockjaw?

Throw n mow 🤣

Hmmm. Never heard of it.

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3506639
10/12/21 06:26 PM
10/12/21 06:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
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Between the coosa and cahaba
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I was thinking grant woods planted buckwheat in the spring .


ggg
Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3506746
10/12/21 08:04 PM
10/12/21 08:04 PM
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Orange Beach, AL
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Ma maaa sez grant woooz is the devil, cnc is the god of throoo annnn mo

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3506804
10/12/21 09:36 PM
10/12/21 09:36 PM
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"As to methods, there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods.”— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jb20] #3506897
10/13/21 08:00 AM
10/13/21 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by jb20
Originally Posted by jwalker77
What is that method called Lockjaw?

Throw n mow 🤣


I haven't heard it called that, except here, but thought you guys were referring to throw and grow evolved harvest seed. I will say I am the only one on here that seems to use a flail mower, and I figured the roller would act like a cultipacker to a certain degree. If I could figure out how to broadcast seed into 7 feet tall sunn hemp, I believe I would be golden. When I cut mine down this summer with the flail mower, I had a good inch of mulched up material with a ton of moisture in it sitting on top of the soil. And its evenly distributed.

Grant Woods plants eagle soybeans, The Whitetail Habitat solutions guy does buckwheat in the spring and is a heavy cereal rye user in the fall.

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: Lockjaw] #3506911
10/13/21 08:21 AM
10/13/21 08:21 AM
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k bush Offline
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Originally Posted by Lockjaw
Originally Posted by jb20
Originally Posted by jwalker77
What is that method called Lockjaw?

Throw n mow 🤣


I haven't heard it called that, except here, but thought you guys were referring to throw and grow evolved harvest seed. I will say I am the only one on here that seems to use a flail mower, and I figured the roller would act like a cultipacker to a certain degree. If I could figure out how to broadcast seed into 7 feet tall sunn hemp, I believe I would be golden. When I cut mine down this summer with the flail mower, I had a good inch of mulched up material with a ton of moisture in it sitting on top of the soil. And its evenly distributed.

Grant Woods plants eagle soybeans, The Whitetail Habitat solutions guy does buckwheat in the spring and is a heavy cereal rye user in the fall.



Pretty sure Throw and Mow originated on the old QDMA forums.


"Cull" is just another four letter word...
Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: k bush] #3506966
10/13/21 10:14 AM
10/13/21 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by k bush
Pretty sure Throw and Mow originated on the old QDMA forums.


Correct……..All of the stuff you see folks doing now began on the old QDMA forum with a guy that went by the handle dgallow back about 10-12 years ago……His name is either Doug Gallow or Doug Galloway and I believe he worked for the Noble Foundation or maybe the Oklahoma State extension services, something like that……He was and hopefully still is……let’s just say a really, really smart soils guy…….I know he came to Marshall Co a few years ago and gave a field day lecture on mob grazing

At the time Doug was posting a lot about his mob grazing cattle operation he was experimenting with and the great success he was having using it to manage for wildlife out in Oklahoma……..Most of his discussions were about soil and hardly anyone could understand much of it…..including me……because he talked about it like we were all in a class going for our PHD’s in soil science and it was all in these choppy sentence fragments with a bunch of periods between thoughts…….He said it made people have the think. lol

I’d been following along with his threads for a good while just trying to understand bits and pieces here and there…….He used to post a lot of videos and one day he posts the video “Undercover Famers” right about the same time I was having some epic failures here after getting my new tractor and spending a few seasons thinking……and I remember specifically saying this very thing to myself….maybe even out loud……”Woohoo, now I can do it the right way!!”

I had made beautiful seed beds that could go on a magazine cover…..all the stuff that I thought needed to be done to “do it right” but yet my plots were horrible and I was beyond frustrated and disgusted with it…….That’s when Doug posted that video about the Undercover Farmers and I remember in one part of it I believe they had flown on a cover of cereal rye onto some standing corn and then went back and harvested the corn….This machine they were using was basically just taking the stalks, grinding them up and blowing them out the back over the top of the seed they had flown on………

For whatever reason that was my “Ah ha!! moment” and it gave me the idea to start experimenting with……..I remember being squatted down beside my field thinking about how bad it sucked……..I went and bought a bag of milo and started a thread called “Testing in Progress”……….It started out with something like…….”Alright, here we go Doug……I don’t know how I’m gonna do it but I’m gonna figure out how I can plant that way too”

The early stages of it was just a bunch of experimenting and posting about in a series of spinoff threads that lasted for 2 or 3 years on the old QDMA forum with numerous people that started participating…….including blumsden that still posts here with us. A couple years into all of that someone said something one day about needing to give the method a name and jokingly said we’ll call it the CnC Method………I remember thinking about it for a minute and thinking how selfish sounding that was and didn’t want it to actually be called that even though he was just half joking about it.

So really without giving it a whole lot of thought and basing it off of how everything is commercialized…….I called it the Throw N’ Mow Method because I thought it sounded catchy and like something people bought off the shelves like throw and grow…….it rhymed more than anything……It’s so ironic to me now because the name couldn’t be any more cheesy and the commercialization of the concepts and such is what I roll my eyes at the most.

But that’s where it all originated from……There was a lot of well known folks in the hunting industry that participated openly on the old QDMA forum so I’m sure there were plenty that participated anonymously too. It’s funny to listen to some of the industry folks talk about it now like they’ve been doing since the 90’s and yada, yada…….Here lately I think back to that day when the guy said something about “The CnC Method” and even though he was half joking…..wish I would have made a different decision that day and took the opportunity to go full force marketing with it as the name……..Yeah, it would have been a selfish, dick move all about me……but that’s how things work in the real world if you want to be “somebody”……

This was the first experiment from back around 2010-2011 with milo…….you can see how poor my field was back then in comparison ……..

[Linked Image]


"As to methods, there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods.”— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3507091
10/13/21 01:50 PM
10/13/21 01:50 PM
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Well I arrived at what I do a little different. I watched what Grant Wood puts in his video's, but buying a drill plus a crimper is just out of my budget. When I started looking into flail mowers and watching how they worked, the idea occurred to me I could get better results with a flail than I could ever achieve with a bush hog. So last fall, to experiment, I broadcast seed into standing beans to see what happened. What I was trying to achieve was not going in and cutting down something the deer were eating (beans and peas) and letting the field sit there for a month while I waited on a spray, disk and reseed. I liked how that worked, I just broadcast grains and brassica's into standing peas and they took off. Then this spring, I went out, broadcast beans and peas into the standing cereal grains and mowed them with the flail mower. The one problem with that was I had area's in some of the fields that didn't have good germination no matter what I planted, so this year I started subsoiling those fields completely and starting over.

Now I switched gears and am working towards having a perennial (mainly clover or fusion or alfa rack) in all the fields, because none of mine are bigger than half an acre. And from what I have seen on my camera's, the deer hammer the clover mixes every bit as much as the beans, but so do the turkey's, which I wasn't seeing in beans. This gives me a crop that is there year round and I don't have to contend with the deer mowing down a small field of beans right out of the gate when they sprout.

I am essentially managing 24 "green fields" on 1100 acre's by myself. It would be different if I had 2 fields that were 5 acres each. But I don't. But with the flail mower and the 3 pt spreader, I can go cut them all and fertilize in 1 day, and then spray the next with my ATV. I have a couple new guys that are working with me to help identify the natural browse we can work on next. So I have started flagging persimmons. I am hoping when the timber company thins next spring, that will allow us to get down close to the SMZ that runs through the property and then maybe we can clear out around the white oaks some. We are supposed to get 2 more fields that are about half an acre when they thin.

So imagine a guy joins a hunting club, and starts planting using an ATV and a groundhog max. That was my first 2 seasons. Then I bought a subcompact tractor. So I have watched what has happened each time I planted, and watched how the deer reacted to it, and have adjusted off that. So while I will be 55 this year, my planting experience is only 4 years in the making. And it lets me have some control over what we do, versus being in a club that has a tractor but won't let me use it, and plants the same 3 grain mix in the fall, and clay peas on some of the fields in the spring, and never soil tests or limes and calls it good.

And I look at and listen to what you guys do as well.

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3508037
10/14/21 11:38 PM
10/14/21 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jwalker77
What is that method called Lockjaw?


Dr. Woods has called it the “Buffalo system” for years but is now calling it the “release process.” You can look his channel up on YouTube. It’s called GrowingDeer.tv. We haven’t been doing it long at our place but so far we like the results.

Re: Changing ph without liming agent? [Re: jwalker77] #3512278
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Yes that is what he calls it. He says that is how the great praries developed their soil over time. He has video's showing wha their soil looks like after doing this for a while. It's very rocky where his farm is.

What I discovered on my lease is the main fields that have been there forever had hardpan. Once I subsoiled them, the production improved a ton. So I really think that is the first step, at least where I am. Then you have to plant something that creates organic matter, and probably the best thing I have found is sunn hemp. The fields that I needed to subsoil but didn't disk this spring, had earthworms in them, which is a really good sign.

I don't do his system of beans in the spring and then cereal grains in the fall. I have moved towards clover, so all I do in the spring is mow, spray and fertilize, and then in the fall I come in and broadcast brassica's and cereal grains and fertilize. I am going to see how that does. I just don't have a field big enough to make planting beans worth it. They end up looking good until about August, and then they get mowed in 2 weeks. So I wind up with deer looking for food in the hottest month, and there isn't much. The clover seems to work a little better, they can't eat mow a half acre field in 2 weeks. And if you keep it fertilized and get any rain at all, it will pop.

So I am going to see what happens next spring. I have 24 green fields of varying size, none over half an acre. And I have some kind of clover on all of them!


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