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Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350337
06/14/12 11:14 AM
06/14/12 11:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,092
alabama
BhamFred Offline
Freak of Nature
BhamFred  Offline
Freak of Nature
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alabama
I have NO problems with the CAB.....as it was INTENDED to be.....a sounding board for the hunters and citizens of Alabama to make their voices heard by the Dept of Conservation.

I do have a problem with allowing POLITICALLY APPOINTED folks with (usually) no wildlife qualifications to MAKE AND PASS regulations that have the force of law, especially when those regulations are in opposition to what the professionals at the Dept of Conservation find to be needed.

Can em!!!!

troy


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: Speaking of data [Re: Clem] #350349
06/14/12 11:28 AM
06/14/12 11:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
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Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: Clem
And the Legislature doesn't have special interests?

Would you rather have your toe stepped on or be beaten with concrete blocks?

Enduring a small amount of something, while not wholly palatable, is far better than being bludgeoned.


That's it in a nutshell.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350354
06/14/12 11:33 AM
06/14/12 11:33 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
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B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
When it comes to setting hunting regulations, I will certainly take political appointees that have some financial/personal interest in maintaining good hunting over an elected State Legislature, but financial links to the hunting industry do pose some problems too.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: BhamFred] #350358
06/14/12 11:39 AM
06/14/12 11:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
Booner
49er  Offline OP
Booner
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Warrior River Country
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
I have NO problems with the CAB.....as it was INTENDED to be.....a sounding board for the hunters and citizens of Alabama to make their voices heard by the Dept of Conservation.

I do have a problem with allowing POLITICALLY APPOINTED folks with (usually) no wildlife qualifications to MAKE AND PASS regulations that have the force of law, especially when those regulations are in opposition to what the professionals at the Dept of Conservation find to be needed.

Can em!!!!

troy


How about our exclusion from the " minimum procedural code for the operation of all state agencies when they take action affecting the rights and duties of the public" which is the stated purpose of the AAPA?

We're talking about the power to destroy a right recognized by our Constitution. Yet we don't even have the "minimum protection" afforded by law short of mounting a criminal defense if we dare to challenge an infringement on that right.

The procedures outlined for passing bills in our legislature by our Constitution are completely avoided when these rules that have "the force and effect of law" are written without any legislative or public review whatsoever.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: Clem] #350389
06/14/12 12:28 PM
06/14/12 12:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter Offline
10 point
NightHunter  Offline
10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
Originally Posted By: Clem
And the Legislature doesn't have special interests?

Would you rather have your toe stepped on or be beaten with concrete blocks?

Enduring a small amount of something, while not wholly palatable, is far better than being bludgeoned.



Yep, but we vote those idiots in. This political conjecture is not going to go anywhere, so I will just say that it the CAB worked as intended it would be fine. What we have is an extension of our legislature as a CAB. They are political appointees, I didn't figure that was too hard to follow confused Political appointees push the same views as those who appointed them, therefore a simple extension into the system, that's why they were appointed.

Last edited by NightHunter; 06/14/12 12:35 PM.
Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350430
06/14/12 01:54 PM
06/14/12 01:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
C
Clem Offline
Mildly Quirky
Clem  Offline
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C
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Over Yonder
I'd really, really love to see some "common man" appointees to the board.

I doubt if many could handle the stress and aggravation, though.


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
Re: Speaking of data [Re: NightHunter] #350515
06/14/12 04:55 PM
06/14/12 04:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
Booner
49er  Offline OP
Booner
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Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
Nighthunter,
Quote:
... What we have is an extension of our legislature as a CAB. They are political appointees, I didn't figure that was too hard to follow Political appointees push the same views as those who appointed them, therefore a simple extension into the system, that's why they were appointed.


The CAB members are appointed by the governor whenever a vacancy occurs on the Board. The CAB is a part of the executive branch, not the legislative branch. As thick as the rule book is now, they must think they are legislators, but they are not supposed to be. The Board is supposed to function as an advisory body, not a legislative body.

Vacancies are supposed to occur after six years by law. Some members seem to have been given life-time appointments in spite of the law.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350518
06/14/12 05:05 PM
06/14/12 05:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
C
Clem Offline
Mildly Quirky
Clem  Offline
Mildly Quirky
C
Joined: Dec 2002
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Over Yonder
Vacancies do occur after six years. Some members are asked, and agree, to serve another term.

Nothing illegal about that. Happens on many agencies.

If someone doesn't like the fact there are no term limits then work to get the language changed.


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
Re: Speaking of data [Re: Clem] #350559
06/14/12 06:29 PM
06/14/12 06:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
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Warrior River Country
Originally Posted By: Clem
*** You are ignoring this user ***
Toggle the display of this post


Some folks just don't get it do they?

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350562
06/14/12 06:32 PM
06/14/12 06:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
C
Clem Offline
Mildly Quirky
Clem  Offline
Mildly Quirky
C
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Over Yonder
You can choose to ignore anyone.

Doesn't mean we have to stop posting anything.

It's obvious you don't get it.


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
Re: Speaking of data [Re: 2Dogs] #350644
06/14/12 09:27 PM
06/14/12 09:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
T
truedouble Offline
14 point
truedouble  Offline
14 point
T
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Originally Posted By: joshm28
Is there a bio on these individuals? Something that shows why the are members of the CAB


Here's the main bio for most of them : money and well connected politically. I'd still rather see them making rules and not the legislature.


And they all hunt and probably are all property owners as well...at least they have a dog in the fight, "biologist" or not. By degree none of them are as far as I know, BUT by experience I bet most of them know a lot more than the avg. politician about wildlife management. I know one for sure knows as much about it as just about anyone on this site. He didn't study it in school but when you have money you can afford to learn from the best and when you have thousands of acres and money at your disposal you tend to put the pieces together after years of working with biologists.

One of the things that disgusted me most about the baiting bill is it was written by a male and female politician, neither of which hunt or have ever hunted. They have no clue what they are proposing or the ramifications. Those idiots need to stay as far away from hunting regs. as possible.

Last edited by truedouble; 06/14/12 09:30 PM.
Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350694
06/14/12 10:22 PM
06/14/12 10:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,956
Hampton Cove
foldemup Offline
14 point
foldemup  Offline
14 point
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Posts: 9,956
Hampton Cove
Originally Posted By: 49er
Originally Posted By: Clem
*** You are ignoring this user ***
Toggle the display of this post


Some folks just don't get it do they?


If you are ignoring him, how do you even know he was talking to you? Oh, I forgot, you can't read this because you are ignoring me too! Carry on...


If you want to always win, never play anyone better than you!
Re: Speaking of data [Re: truedouble] #350747
06/15/12 05:30 AM
06/15/12 05:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
Freak of Nature
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Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: truedouble
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Originally Posted By: joshm28
Is there a bio on these individuals? Something that shows why the are members of the CAB


Here's the main bio for most of them : money and well connected politically. I'd still rather see them making rules and not the legislature.


And they all hunt and probably are all property owners as well...at least they have a dog in the fight, "biologist" or not. By degree none of them are as far as I know, BUT by experience I bet most of them know a lot more than the avg. politician about wildlife management. I know one for sure knows as much about it as just about anyone on this site. He didn't study it in school but when you have money you can afford to learn from the best and when you have thousands of acres and money at your disposal you tend to put the pieces together after years of working with biologists.

One of the things that disgusted me most about the baiting bill is it was written by a male and female politician, neither of which hunt or have ever hunted. They have no clue what they are proposing or the ramifications. Those idiots need to stay as far away from hunting regs. as possible.


I'm sure they all hunt and /or own property. And be careful, there are some on here that believe you MUST have a degree. I'm not one of them. Ray Jones is well qualified for the CAB, I have no problem with him. Lesser of 2 evils, I'd rather see the CAB making regs. It would be nice if there were more that were qualified as him on it. Not much would get done in the legislature, and then when it did, who knows. eek

Last edited by 2Dogs; 06/15/12 08:57 AM.


"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: Clem] #350761
06/15/12 07:01 AM
06/15/12 07:01 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
12 point
B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: Clem
If someone doesn't like the fact there are no term limits then work to get the language changed.


TN has a similar situation in that we have a Governor appointed Wildlife Commission that has the final say on all wildlife regulations. Luckily, they listen to the advice/recommendations of the Wildlife Agency's biologists most of the time, but the few problem members (those who used their position to personally benefit) were handled by doing exactly what Clem suggested--forcing term limits. That got rid of those Commission members who were using their position as a lifetime fiefdom.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: BSK] #351206
06/16/12 08:08 AM
06/16/12 08:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
Booner
49er  Offline OP
Booner
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Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: Clem
If someone doesn't like the fact there are no term limits then work to get the language changed.


TN has a similar situation in that we have a Governor appointed Wildlife Commission that has the final say on all wildlife regulations. Luckily, they listen to the advice/recommendations of the Wildlife Agency's biologists most of the time, but the few problem members (those who used their position to personally benefit) were handled by doing exactly what Clem suggested--forcing term limits. That got rid of those Commission members who were using their position as a lifetime fiefdom.


We've got term limits here, but our governors just ignore them:

Quote:
Section 9-2-14
Advisory Board of Conservation and Natural Resources - Created; composition; qualifications, appointment, terms of office, and compensation of members; residency requirements; meetings; record of meetings and proceedings; transitional members.

(a) There shall be an Advisory Board of Conservation and Natural Resources. The board shall consist of the Governor, the Commissioner of Agriculture and Industries, the Director of the Agricultural Extension System ex officio, and 10 other members to be appointed by the Governor, one of whom the Governor shall designate as chair of the Advisory Board of Conservation and Natural Resources. The appointed members of the board shall be selected with special reference to training and experience along one or more of the principal lines of activity vested in the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. The term of office of each appointed member of the board shall be six years. ...


If hunters interpreted the law like politicians do, there wouldn't be any need to have laws.

- Bag limit: kill the limit and then start another one
- Creel limit: catch the limit and then start another one
Reckon how that would work out??

But then they use a different standard:

Semi-annual: as many as you want to have
Salt: nothing but white salt and Trophy Rock Brand
Sunset: hunt 'til dark-thirty. We'll decide when dark-thirty is.
Game animal: feral hogs ... but hogs are a nuisance species and game laws don't apply... unless we decide they do
Antlerless deer season: depredation permits to kill and leave to rot
"Rules not in conflict with applicable statutes": do whatever we want to do
"Shall not be infringed": make rules restricting it anyhow

etc. etc.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #351232
06/16/12 09:01 AM
06/16/12 09:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,375
Jasper, AL
J
joshm28 Offline
14 point
joshm28  Offline
14 point
J
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,375
Jasper, AL
49r. It says the term is 6 years but doesn't say anything about multiple terms. If there were limits it would say that specifically.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: joshm28] #351299
06/16/12 01:08 PM
06/16/12 01:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
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Originally Posted By: joshm28
49r. It says the term is 6 years but doesn't say anything about multiple terms. If there were limits it would say that specifically.


This is exactly what the law says:

"... The term of office of each appointed member of the board shall be six years."

If the legislature had intended for a member to serve multiple terms, it would have stated that specifically. It did not.

Quote:
... we must give the words in a statute their plain, ordinary, and commonly understood meaning, and where plain language is used we must interpret it to mean exactly what it says.

Ex parte Shelby County Heath Care Auth., 850 So.2d 332 (Ala.2002)

Quote:
In determining the meaning of a statute, this Court looks to the plain meaning of the words as written by the legislature. As we have said:

"`Words used in a statute must be given their natural, plain, ordinary, and commonly understood meaning, and where plain language is used a court is bound to interpret that language to mean exactly what it says. If the language of the statute is unambiguous, then there is no room for judicial construction and the clearly expressed intent of the legislature must be given effect.'"

Blue Cross & Blue Shield v. Nielsen, 714 So.2d 293, 296 (Ala.1998) (quoting IMED Corp. v. Systems Eng'g Assocs. Corp., 602 276*276 So.2d 344, 346 (Ala.1992)); see also Tuscaloosa County Comm'n v. Deputy Sheriffs' Ass'n, 589 So.2d 687, 689 (Ala.1991); Coastal States Gas Transmission Co. v. Alabama Pub. Serv. Comm'n, 524 So.2d 357, 360 (Ala.1988); Alabama Farm Bureau Mut. Cas. Ins. Co. v. City of Hartselle, 460 So.2d 1219, 1223 (Ala. 1984); Dumas Bros. Mfg. Co. v. Southern Guar. Ins. Co., 431 So.2d 534, 536 (Ala.1983); Town of Loxley v. Rosinton Water, Sewer, & Fire Protection Auth., Inc., 376 So.2d 705, 708 (Ala.1979)

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #351390
06/16/12 05:56 PM
06/16/12 05:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,375
Jasper, AL
J
joshm28 Offline
14 point
joshm28  Offline
14 point
J
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,375
Jasper, AL
There is nothing stating they can't serve 2, 3 or 10 terms.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: joshm28] #351391
06/16/12 06:03 PM
06/16/12 06:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
Booner
49er  Offline OP
Booner
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Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
How do you get 12 yrs, 18 yrs or 60 yrs out of a 6 year term? You ignore the law.

The law clearly states that the term of each appointed member will be 6 years. If the legislature intended for the term to be unlimited thru re-appointment, why would it bother to define the term as 6 years?


Would you also argue that the governor can appoint as many members to the board as he wants as long as he appoints 10? The law doesn't state that he can't appoint more if he likes:
Quote:
Section 9-2-14
Advisory Board of Conservation and Natural Resources - Created; composition; qualifications, appointment, terms of office, and compensation of members; residency requirements; meetings; record of meetings and proceedings; transitional members.

(a) There shall be an Advisory Board of Conservation and Natural Resources. The board shall consist of the Governor, the Commissioner of Agriculture and Industries, the Director of the Agricultural Extension System ex officio, and 10 other members to be appointed by the Governor, one of whom the Governor shall designate as chair of the Advisory Board of Conservation and Natural Resources...

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #351394
06/16/12 06:27 PM
06/16/12 06:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,375
Jasper, AL
J
joshm28 Offline
14 point
joshm28  Offline
14 point
J
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,375
Jasper, AL
Eddie

Not gonna argue with you but there is absolutely nothing illegal about them serving more than one term. It would clearly say a term of six years and a maximum of BLANK terms

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