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Re: Speaking of data [Re: teamduckdown] #350193
06/14/12 07:50 AM
06/14/12 07:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
Booner
49er  Offline OP
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
TDD,

Your question has been answered, you just didn't like my answer.

If you insist, I'll explain the difference in a rule and a law:

A law is an act of the elected representatives in our state house and senate. The act must be written in the form outlined in our constitution. It must be considered by in a standing committee and then it must be read multiple times as required before coming before the full house for a vote. If it passes one house, it must be considered by the other house before it goes to the governor for consideration of his approval. If he does not approve, the bill must be reconsidered by the legislare before being passed or or it fails. The act must conform to the provisions of our Constitution:
Quote:
Article III Distribution of Powers of Government.

Section 42 Legislative, executive and judicial departments established.

Section 43 Separation of powers.

Article IV Legislative Department.

Section

Section 44 Composition of legislature.

Section 45 Style of laws; division of laws; laws restricted to one subject; amendment or revival of laws by title only.

Section 46 Election and terms of office of senators and representatives; vacancies in office.

Section 47 Qualifications of senators and representatives.

Section 48 Time and place of meetings of legislature; maximum length of sessions.

Section 49 Compensation of members of legislature.

Section 50 Number of senators and representatives; apportionment of legislators.

Section 51 Election of president pro tem. of senate and speaker of house of representatives; temporary president and speaker; officers of each house; each house judge of election, returns and qualifications of members.

Section 52 Quorum in each house.

Section 53 Rules of proceedings of both houses; punishment for contempt or disorderly behavior; enforcement of process; protection of members from violence, bribes, etc.; expulsion of members.

Section 54 Expulsion for corruption bar to further service in legislature; punishment for contempt or disorderly behavior not bar to indictment for same offense.

Section 55 Journal of proceedings of each house.

Section 56 Immunity of legislators.

Section 57 Doors of each house to be open; exceptions; restrictions on admittance to floor.

Section 58 Adjournment or change of place of sitting by one house without consent of other house.

Section 59 Appointment of legislators to other offices during terms for which elected.

Section 60 Conviction of certain crimes bar to eligibility for legislature and to holding state office of trust or profit.

Section 61 Laws to be passed by bills; restrictions on amendments to bills.

Section 62 Referral of bills to standing committees.

Section 63 Number of readings for bills; recordation of votes on bills; majority vote required for passage of bills.

Section 64 Procedure for amendment of bills; adoption of reports of committees of conference.

Section 65 Lotteries and gift enterprises prohibited.

Section 66 Signature of bills by presiding officer of each house; reading of bills at length may be dispensed with.

Section 67 Number, duties and compensation of officers and employees of each house.

Section 68 Extra compensation not to be granted public officer, employee, contractor, etc., after service rendered or contract made; increase or decrease of compensation of officers during term of office.

Section 69 Stationery, printing, fuel, etc., to be furnished by lowest responsible bidder; conflicts of interest.

Section 70 Revenue bills to originate in House of Representatives; preparation of general revenue bill; amendments to revenue bills by Senate; time limit for passage of revenue bills.

Section 71 Restrictions on general appropriation bill...




A rule is an act of unelected political appointees of the executive branch who are forbidden by our constitution from assuming legislative powers. Our courts have allowed our legislature to delegate rule-making authority to these agencies under the common law principles of government in England.

There is no law that delegates authority to the Commissioner of the DCNR to mandate wildlife management on privately owned or leased lands without the consent of the landowner or leaseholders.


You can read the opinion in the link below if you want to learn more about agency rules and their constituionality:
Timmons v City of Montgomery

Quote:
The State argues that Rule 760-X-.17 cures any constitutional deficiencies of § 32-5-215(d). The appellant counters that Rule 760-X-.17 was an improper attempt to circumvent the legislative process. We must agree with the appellant.

"It is a fundamental rule of constitutional law that the lawmaking authority of the legislature may not be delegated to any other department or agency, either public or private. State v. Vaughan, 30 Ala.App. 201, 4 So.2d 5 (Ala.Ct.App.1941). Therefore, when certain legislative powers are delegated to administrative or quasi-administrative officials, it is a prerequisite that adequate standards be established by the legislature so that officials to whom the powers are delegated will not legislate but, rather, will carry out the legislative will. 1266*1266 See, Commission on Medical Discipline v. Stillman, 291 Md. 390, 435 A.2d 747 (1981).

". . . .

"As a general rule, the legislature may delegate to its own appointed administrative agencies the authority to make such minor rules and regulations as are necessary or appropriate for administration or enforcement of its general statutes. State v. State Board of Medical Examiners, 209 Ala. 9, 95 So. 295 (1923)."

Evers v. Board of Medical Examiners, 516 So.2d 650, 654-55 (Ala.Civ.App.1987).



Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350206
06/14/12 08:30 AM
06/14/12 08:30 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
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B
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Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
49er,

Do you really want the Legislature to be making the game/hunting rules?

Personally, I would rather wildlife professionals, whether I agree with all their opinions or not, making the game/hunting rules. At least they have the wildlife's and hunters' best interest in mind.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: BSK] #350215
06/14/12 08:57 AM
06/14/12 08:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
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Boxes Cove
Alabama Legislature making all game/ hunting rules, what a Titanic disaster that would be.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: BSK] #350217
06/14/12 08:57 AM
06/14/12 08:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
Booner
49er  Offline OP
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
Originally Posted By: BSK
49er,

Do you really want the Legislature to be making the game/hunting rules?

Personally, I would rather wildlife professionals, whether I agree with all their opinions or not, making the game/hunting rules. At least they have the wildlife's and hunters' best interest in mind.


I don't consider but one or possibly two of these people to be wildlife professionals:
Quote:
Dan L. Moultrie, Chairman
PO Box 188
Verbena, AL 36091
dmoultrie@dishmail.net
March 27, 2015
6

Austin Ainsworth PO Box 447
Guntersville, AL 35976
September 30, 2017
4

Grady Hartzog
PO Box 787
Eufaula, AL 36072
March 27, 2015
2

Bill Hatley
639 Estate Dr
Gulf Shores, AL 36542
September 30, 2017
1

T.J. Bunn
1904 University Blvd.
Tuscaloosa, AL 35401 March 27, 2015 7

Raymond Jones, Jr.
401 Franklin St
Huntsville, AL 35801
May 9, 2013
5

W. Grant Lynch, Jr.
PO Box 777
Talladega, AL 35161
May 9, 2013
3

Joseph Dobbs, Jr.
3601 Parkwood Rd. SE
Bessemer, AL 35022
March 28, 2015
6

Dr. Bob Shipp
University of South AL
Dept. of Marine Sciences
LSCB 25
Mobile, AL 36688 March 28, 2015
1

Dr. Warren Strickland
930 Franklin Street
Huntsville, AL 35801
September 30, 2017
5


Ex-officio Members

•Robert Bentley, Governor
•Dr. Gary Lemme, Director, Alabama Cooperative Extension System
•John McMillan, Commissioner, Department of Agriculture and Industries
Ex-officio Secretary of the Board

•N. Gunter Guy, Jr., Commissioner, Department of Conservation and Natural Resources


Bills of the Legislature must be referred to standing committees consisting of members who are chosen according to their qualifications to consider matters that come before those committees:

House:
AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY
Chad Fincher, Chair; Steve Hurst, Vice Chair; Richard Lindsey, Ranking Minority Member; Donnie Chesteen, Randy Davis, Joe Faust, Dexter Grimsley, Paul Lee, A.J. McCampbell.

Senate:
AGRICULTURE, CONSERVATION AND FORESTRY
Whatley, Chairperson; Glover, Vice Chairperson; Beasley, Bussman, Keahey, McGill, Sanford, Scofield, Singleton, Williams (President Pro Tempore Designee).

- We can vote for our legislators, and we have due process of law that provides for us to be actively involved in the process of legislation.

- We have no due process of law in matters related to the setting of hunting and fishing seasons and bag and creel limits that are considered by our CAB or Commissioner of the DCNR. Hunters and fishermen have been exluded from that process completely by law.


Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350220
06/14/12 09:02 AM
06/14/12 09:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
That a waffle or just plain ol' avoid the question?



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: 2Dogs] #350222
06/14/12 09:04 AM
06/14/12 09:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
Booner
49er  Offline OP
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
That a waffle or just plain ol' avoid the question?


It's an answer.

Do you consider the members of the CAB to be wildlife professionals?

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350227
06/14/12 09:07 AM
06/14/12 09:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,375
Jasper, AL
J
joshm28 Offline
14 point
joshm28  Offline
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J
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,375
Jasper, AL
Is there a bio on these individuals? Something that shows why the are members of the CAB

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350228
06/14/12 09:09 AM
06/14/12 09:09 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: 49er
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
That a waffle or just plain ol' avoid the question?


It's an answer.

Do you consider the members of the CAB to be wildlife professionals?


We all know most are not.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: joshm28] #350235
06/14/12 09:15 AM
06/14/12 09:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: joshm28
Is there a bio on these individuals? Something that shows why the are members of the CAB


Here's the main bio for most of them : money and well connected politically. I'd still rather see them making rules and not the legislature.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: joshm28] #350239
06/14/12 09:19 AM
06/14/12 09:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
Booner
49er  Offline OP
Booner
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Warrior River Country
Originally Posted By: joshm28
Is there a bio on these individuals? Something that shows why the are members of the CAB


I've asked here for that information. I didn't get much of a useful response.

Here's a link to that thread:
CAB qualifications thread

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 2Dogs] #350242
06/14/12 09:20 AM
06/14/12 09:20 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
Booner
49er  Offline OP
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Originally Posted By: joshm28
Is there a bio on these individuals? Something that shows why the are members of the CAB


Here's the main bio for most of them : money and well connected politically. I'd still rather see them making rules and not the legislature.


What are your reasons for that?

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350245
06/14/12 09:24 AM
06/14/12 09:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
Freak of Nature
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Boxes Cove
Am I not correct? If they weren't "men of means" and well connected ,you think they'd be on the board? You really don't have to answer.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: 2Dogs] #350247
06/14/12 09:26 AM
06/14/12 09:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
Booner
49er  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Am I not correct? If they weren't "men of means" and well connected ,you think they'd be on the board? You really don't have to answer.


Here's the statement you made that I was asking for your reasons on:
Quote:
I'd still rather see them making rules and not the legislature.


What are your reasons?

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350251
06/14/12 09:30 AM
06/14/12 09:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
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Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: 49er
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Am I not correct? If they weren't "men of means" and well connected ,you think they'd be on the board? You really don't have to answer.


Here's the statement you made that I was asking for your reasons on:
Quote:
I'd still rather see them making rules and not the legislature.


What are your reasons?


Now you really want me to answer that? We are talking about the Alabama Legislature. laugh



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350255
06/14/12 09:31 AM
06/14/12 09:31 AM
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Posts: 9,375
Jasper, AL
J
joshm28 Offline
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I want the decision makers to have a vested interest, and knowledgable of the repercussions of the regs they are implementing. How much money they have and who the know is irrelevant.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: joshm28] #350259
06/14/12 09:35 AM
06/14/12 09:35 AM
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2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
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Originally Posted By: joshm28
I want the decision makers to have a vested interest, and knowledgable of the repercussions of the regs they are implementing. How much money they have and who the know is irrelevant.


I'm good with a couple of working Foresters, working Wildlife Biologists, maybe a working farmer, throw in a small land owner. That ain't happening, we all know it.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: 2Dogs] #350260
06/14/12 09:37 AM
06/14/12 09:37 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
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49er  Offline OP
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Warrior River Country
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Originally Posted By: 49er
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Am I not correct? If they weren't "men of means" and well connected ,you think they'd be on the board? You really don't have to answer.


Here's the statement you made that I was asking for your reasons on:
Quote:
I'd still rather see them making rules and not the legislature.


What are your reasons?


Now you really want me to answer that? We are talking about the Alabama Legislature. laugh


But we are comparing them to the Conservation Advisory Board. And it takes a lot more effort to get a law passed than it does to get a DCNR commissioner to simply sit down and write a rule!!

Who is waffling now?

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350291
06/14/12 10:17 AM
06/14/12 10:17 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
B
BSK Offline
12 point
BSK  Offline
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B
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
OK 49er, after seeing your CAB list, I get your point! smile

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350317
06/14/12 10:45 AM
06/14/12 10:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter Offline
10 point
NightHunter  Offline
10 point
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Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
Originally Posted By: 49er
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
That a waffle or just plain ol' avoid the question?


It's an answer.

Do you consider the members of the CAB to be wildlife professionals?


I can assure you that they are not wildlife professionals.

1 of the bunch is educated in the field...

My personal opinion is the CAB should be done away with or put qualified people on it. Some of the people on it do care about the issues at hand, but they HAVE TOO MANY SPECIAL INTERESTS.

Last edited by NightHunter; 06/14/12 10:48 AM.
Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #350331
06/14/12 11:02 AM
06/14/12 11:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,937
Over Yonder
C
Clem Offline
Mildly Quirky
Clem  Offline
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Over Yonder
And the Legislature doesn't have special interests?

Would you rather have your toe stepped on or be beaten with concrete blocks?

Enduring a small amount of something, while not wholly palatable, is far better than being bludgeoned.


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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