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Re: Speaking of data [Re: BSK] #349697
06/13/12 09:03 AM
06/13/12 09:03 AM
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Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
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Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: gobbler
Originally Posted By: BSK


You wrote: "There are always people in any walk of life who want to set limits for others." Unfortunately, that is true. And also unfortunately too many QDM enthusiasts want to see other hunters' harvest and hunting opportunities limited just so that their efforts towards growing big bucks can be more successful. I deeply oppose that movement/viewpoint. If you want to practice QDM, do so on your own hunting land. If you don't, don't.


But I thought you were in favor of the buck restrictions that were imposed on the Tennessee hunters, ergo, probably support Al's buck limit? confused Just tryin to help 49r out wink



In my opinion, the only role the lower buck limit played in fostering these improvements is that it fostered the idea of "protecting" bucks from over-harvest, and when buck age structures began to noticably improve in the years after the lowered limit (even though the lower limit was not the direct cause of this), hunters began to see that limiting buck harvests really will increase buck age structure, prompting more and more hunters to be selective (by age) in their harvests. In essence, success bred success, even though the actual reason for the earlier success was not really caused by the lower buck limit. Through more older bucks being seen and killed, hunters began to believe that passed young bucks in one year would survive the season and be available for harvest as older bucks in following years, hence they gained the confidence to start passing young bucks; i.e. success bred success.



I would suggest reading BSKs bottom paragraph ^^^^ and "let it soak in."



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: AlabamaSwamper] #349699
06/13/12 09:05 AM
06/13/12 09:05 AM
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Nashville, TN
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Originally Posted By: AlabamaSwamper
Originally Posted By: 49er
Hunters are divided now more than any time I've ever seen in my 50 years of observation. Ignoring it won't help anything. If we recognize it, we might be able to start trying to fix it.




This may not be the popular thing to say on ALdeer but.......49er made a good point here. Like many have said, TV has ruined deer hunting for the worst imho. I spend 100's hours and 4 figures a year practicing QDM the best I can but I totally agree with that statement and it's gotten much worse in the last 10 years.


I'll third that. In my opinion, TV hunting shows have done more damage to deer hunting and have done more to divide hunters than any other single influence I've seen in my 30+ years of deer hunting.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: cartervj] #349701
06/13/12 09:06 AM
06/13/12 09:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline OP
Booner
49er  Offline OP
Booner
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Warrior River Country
Carter,
Quote:
49er is grasping for support


If I had said something that I couldn't back up with evidence, that may have been the case.

I think BSK just supported my statement with his own explanation.

Do you get some kind of a thrill out of jumping in to make personal comments like that? That's what I'm trying to understand. There seems to be an uncontrollable urge to degrade people when they don't embrace the theories of qdm.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: BSK] #349709
06/13/12 09:20 AM
06/13/12 09:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,030
Round ‘bout there
C
Clem Offline
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Clem  Offline
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C
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Round ‘bout there
Bryan,

Quote:
With more total bucks in the pre-hunt population each year, but unchanging buck harvests, more and more bucks are surviving hunting season each year. The result is an increased buck age structure.



Is this change and increased buck age structure beneficial to the overall health of a deer population in an area and/or state?


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #349749
06/13/12 10:58 AM
06/13/12 10:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,830
Hoover
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Booner
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Booner
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Hoover
I jsut don't see divided hunters where I hunt. Some use QDM, some don't. We are just as happy if a neighbor kills a spike as we are killing an eight. I may grumble about it at home...but its his business.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: LUMPY] #349759
06/13/12 11:13 AM
06/13/12 11:13 AM
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Boxes Cove
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Originally Posted By: L.Thompson
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
I have a Phd...... in managing my own property, with great success.

That you do my friend!


I need to qualify "great". I was speaking in terms of money spent. My QDM has come mostly from knowing the land and animals, using common sense timber harvests and trigger control. Smart timber harvesting and trigger control will go along way in the moutains. As far as the grand scheme of QDM maybe "some" success. But as far as $ spent, "great" is my story and I'm sticking to it.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: burbank] #349760
06/13/12 11:15 AM
06/13/12 11:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 35,250
Boxes Cove
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Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: burbank
I jsut don't see divided hunters where I hunt. Some use QDM, some don't. We are just as happy if a neighbor kills a spike as we are killing an eight. I may grumble about it at home...but its his business.


X2



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #349767
06/13/12 11:38 AM
06/13/12 11:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 52,030
Round ‘bout there
C
Clem Offline
Mildly Quirky
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C
Joined: Dec 2002
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Round ‘bout there
x3


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
Re: Speaking of data [Re: Clem] #349801
06/13/12 12:46 PM
06/13/12 12:46 PM
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Nashville, TN
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Originally Posted By: Clem
Bryan,

Quote:
With more total bucks in the pre-hunt population each year, but unchanging buck harvests, more and more bucks are surviving hunting season each year. The result is an increased buck age structure.



Is this change and increased buck age structure beneficial to the overall health of a deer population in an area and/or state?



Yes it is, but outside of a more concentrated rut in the Southeast, most of the benefits are not huge or obvious. Most of the important biological benefits are quite subtle, and would take years to see or measure (if they even can be measured).

Re: Speaking of data [Re: burbank] #349802
06/13/12 12:49 PM
06/13/12 12:49 PM
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Nashville, TN
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Originally Posted By: burbank
I jsut don't see divided hunters where I hunt. Some use QDM, some don't. We are just as happy if a neighbor kills a spike as we are killing an eight. I may grumble about it at home...but its his business.


Hang out in some of the national deer hunting talk forums, or head up to the TN Talk Forum. You'll see elitist mature buck hunters severly denigrating anyone who doesn't hunt like they do, or kills a buck under 4 1/2 years old.

Actually, I should clarify that. the worst of the offenders are those who try to be mature/big buck hunters, but are not successful, and they blame every hunter who has ever shot a buck below their own personal standards for their lack of success. These wannabes absolutely believe that they aren't killing big/mature bucks because there aren't any around, and every other hunter is to blame for that (because they shot all the bucks when they were young).

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 2Dogs] #349805
06/13/12 12:53 PM
06/13/12 12:53 PM
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Nashville, TN
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Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Smart timber harvesting and trigger control will go along way in the moutains.


Oh, now you've gone and let the cat out of the bag!

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #349813
06/13/12 01:06 PM
06/13/12 01:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,532
colbert county
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colbert county
Originally Posted By: 49er
Carter,
Quote:
49er is grasping for support


If I had said something that I couldn't back up with evidence, that may have been the case.

I think BSK just supported my statement with his own explanation.

Do you get some kind of a thrill out of jumping in to make personal comments like that? That's what I'm trying to understand. There seems to be an uncontrollable urge to degrade people when they don't embrace the theories of qdm.



pot meet kettle

that might be my point :thumb up:

you denigrate anyone associated with QDMA, what's the difference?

I haven't renewed my membership when it ran out a few wears back, got tired of the Trophy mentality direction.


I don't care for an AR as part of our buck limits, I personally know way too many guys that without some sort of limit literally kill 30-50 bucks a year, might still do, just not bragging any longer

49er what is wrong with buck limits, really grates on you, as mentioned it does help promote older bucks within the herd which is a good thing, the argument might be just how well it helps.


“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
Re: Speaking of data [Re: BSK] #349814
06/13/12 01:08 PM
06/13/12 01:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,532
colbert county
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colbert county
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Smart timber harvesting and trigger control will go along way in the moutains.


Oh, now you've gone and let the cat out of the bag!



that's why gobbler's post cary a lot of weight, great timber management
aka habitat


“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
Re: Speaking of data [Re: cartervj] #349828
06/13/12 01:27 PM
06/13/12 01:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 35,250
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
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Originally Posted By: cartervj
Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Smart timber harvesting and trigger control will go along way in the moutains.


Oh, now you've gone and let the cat out of the bag!



that's why gobbler's post cary a lot of weight, great timber management
aka habitat


Yep , great pine manager for sure. thumbup



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #349830
06/13/12 01:31 PM
06/13/12 01:31 PM
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Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
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I am going to step on toes here, but I am going to do it anyway.

We manage in the ball park of 290,000 acres in the southeast. We require clubs to turn in harvest data on about 150,000 acres of that property, and have been doing so for 5 years. The first year they had not AR so we could have a baseline data set. Year two they got AR's and have had since.

In the baseline data set, around 75-80% buck harvest was yearling bucks across the entire data set. Last year, after 4 years of AR's my yearling buck harvest percentage was down to 15% and some of those were harvested by youth hunters.

That said, last year we had two districts that thought because we did not have a biologist in those districts anymore that the program had been terminated went right back to their old ways.... 75% of buck harvests were yearlings.

This tells me that most hunters, when not faced with some sort of regulation can't control their trigger.

QDM has not changed that many minds, they have changed the minds in power. The large landowners, the leasing agents and they/I am imposing these rules on them. Unfortunately it would be hard to sway my opinion that AL hunters can effectively manage our deer herd any better that the state is doing.

I am not saying the state should have all this POWER 49er, I am not sure of the answer, but I deal with thousands of AL hunters every year on our property and if we turned them all loose to do what they wanted, it would be pure chaos.

The people here on this site are the elegant few...

I love working with my customers, don't get me wrong, I would not have a job if is was not for them. There is just too many differing ideologies out there that do not mesh that would end up creating havoc.

Last edited by NightHunter; 06/13/12 01:32 PM.
Re: Speaking of data [Re: BSK] #349831
06/13/12 01:33 PM
06/13/12 01:33 PM
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Boxes Cove
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Originally Posted By: BSK
Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Smart timber harvesting and trigger control will go along way in the moutains.


Oh, now you've gone and let the cat out of the bag!


Now I'm gonna kick the cat.... Best management tool in hardwood moutains for deer is a chainsaw, best mineral for deer , lead. IMHO.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #349836
06/13/12 01:42 PM
06/13/12 01:42 PM
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Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
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NightHunter,

My toes don't feel stepped on. wink

The Deep South may be different, although I would be shocked if it was as QDM first gained traction there, but both KY and TN have displayed continuously decreasing yearling buck harvests, without ARs or anything other than a more limited buck bag limit. Again, we have quite a few counties in TN, under a 3 buck bag limit, where yearlings have gone from making up 75% of the harvest to now only making 30-40% of the harvest, and 3 1/2+ year-old bucks have gone from making up less than 5% of the harvest to now making up 25% of the harvest.

In that situation, why limit hunters unnecessarily? They are doing a great job all on their own.

I will always promote QDM as a voluntary effort. I don't want to see state wildlife agencies forcing all hunters to practice it.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: BSK] #349841
06/13/12 01:47 PM
06/13/12 01:47 PM
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Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter Offline
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Holly Pond, AL
Originally Posted By: BSK
NightHunter,

My toes don't feel stepped on. wink

The Deep South may be different, although I would be shocked if it was as QDM first gained traction there, but both KY and TN have displayed continuously decreasing yearling buck harvests, without ARs or anything other than a more limited buck bag limit. Again, we have quite a few counties in TN, under a 3 buck bag limit, where yearlings have gone from making up 75% of the harvest to now only making 30-40% of the harvest, and 3 1/2+ year-old bucks have gone from making up less than 5% of the harvest to now making up 25% of the harvest.

In that situation, why limit hunters unnecessarily? They are doing a great job all on their own.

I will always promote QDM as a voluntary effort. I don't want to see state wildlife agencies forcing all hunters to practice it.


I agree. I am not sure of the answer just yet myself. I like the thought of DMAP coming back into effect and being able to manage our properties that way but I am not sure where that leaves the rest of the private properties in the state...

Re: Speaking of data [Re: 49er] #349844
06/13/12 01:52 PM
06/13/12 01:52 PM
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Posts: 4,969
Nashville, TN
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Let me also add that not all areas of TN are equal. For some unknown reason, some counties are doing great in the way of harvested buck age structure while some are doing terrible (no improvements from the past). And these good and bad counties are scattered all over the state, sometimes directly adjacent. Talking to local wildlife officers, many of them believe the difference is simple localized attitudes. Hunters in some counties care about older bucks while hunters in other counties don't.

In the "bad" county circumstances, I would have no problem with the wildlife agency attempting further means to reduce buck harvests, such as a 1 buck limit. But first I would want to see the local hunters support that idea. If they are happy killing forkhorns every year, so be it. And I would always support a lower buck limit before an antler restriction, even if that means a buck quota system. In many parts of TN, an antler restriction won't work biologically. Like the better habitat areas of Mississippi found out, an antler restriction can cause long-term problems where yearling buck antler development can be highly variable.

Re: Speaking of data [Re: BSK] #349851
06/13/12 02:06 PM
06/13/12 02:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
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Originally Posted By: BSK
Let me also add that not all areas of TN are equal. For some unknown reason, some counties are doing great in the way of harvested buck age structure while some are doing terrible (no improvements from the past). And these good and bad counties are scattered all over the state, sometimes directly adjacent. Talking to local wildlife officers, many of them believe the difference is simple localized attitudes. Hunters in some counties care about older bucks while hunters in other counties don't.

In the "bad" county circumstances, I would have no problem with the wildlife agency attempting further means to reduce buck harvests, such as a 1 buck limit. But first I would want to see the local hunters support that idea. If they are happy killing forkhorns every year, so be it. And I would always support a lower buck limit before an antler restriction, even if that means a buck quota system. In many parts of TN, an antler restriction won't work biologically. Like the better habitat areas of Mississippi found out, an antler restriction can cause long-term problems where yearling buck antler development can be highly variable.


Yes, I kept up with the MS side of things since some of our properties are in south MS. My goal is to move my clubs to shooting for 3.5 year old deer and I still feel like I am a few more classes with my clubs and and a year or two out from this goal.

It's like you said in TN we have areas here in AL that are happy with harvesting small/young deer. Some of the properties where my biggest buck come from every year are in those counties. There are just local pockets of hunters that are not interested in management, which is fine but it just makes things hard.

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