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Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: Goatkiller] #3279913
12/01/20 11:10 AM
12/01/20 11:10 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,375
Jasper, AL
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joshm28 Offline
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Jasper, AL
Originally Posted by Goatkiller
You can't manage nature with your trigger finger. If you have too many does someone is shooting the bucks. Some of y'all can't seem to grasp that concept Biologist included which is where this got started in the fist place.

Shooting does means less deer overall. If you have fewer deer you might have bigger body deer for the ones that are left. That's not rocket science nor does it take anything other than common sense to understand.

What some of y'all can't understand is what happens in the real world. Here in the real world ,you have too many does because someone is shooting the bucks. Having too many does is not a natural occurrence. It's NOT. You can't argue that. It does not happen in nature this way.

1) You shoot a bunch of does and whoever is currently shooting the bucks just keeps shooting the bucks.
2) And then you have less deer and less bucks because you just blasted your breeding stock. That breeding stock was what is allowing the 15 guys in your club or your neighbor to yearly blast 17..... 2-2.5 year old bucks every year.

What you wind up with is less deer and no mature bucks. We've been doing this for over 20 years in this State. But we still have too many does. How could this be? It doesn't work. Fact.

If you never shot a deer there would be the correct amount of bucks and does and your land would have the correct amount of deer on it which it could sustain. Mother Nature will take care of all this for you, you don't have to do a thing.





Your theory might be correct if bucks and does had the same mortality rate. But they don’t..

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: booner] #3279918
12/01/20 11:17 AM
12/01/20 11:17 AM
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abolt300 Online content
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Thanks for saving me from having to make that post Josh.

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: booner] #3279921
12/01/20 11:28 AM
12/01/20 11:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,121
Georgia and Missouri
Semo Offline
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The doe to buck ratio strategy is fine until the pop has a significant mortality event. Then it can be a real problem to rebound a population. I created and ran models on our place with these stochastic mortality events...the results are that the variation for doe harvest levels are difficult to predict. Once you go too far (whatever that number is) better keep your fingers crossed that mortality rates don't change.

In practice, our property had 3 bad years of ehd following a doe reduction plan. We have been a decade with almost no does harvested and limited population gains. There are a couple other factors (like flooding) which compound the issue but compounding factors are always around.

Point is, don't assume today's mortality rates will be the same as tomorrow's. Be careful when limiting the breeding females in a population.

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: booner] #3279935
12/01/20 11:47 AM
12/01/20 11:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,111
B'ham
Goatkiller Offline
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B'ham
The bucks do have a higher mortality rate. 50% of the fawns are bucks. But a natural whitetail deer herd would have a ratio of 1-2 does per buck. That's just fact. If you didn't shoot anything and left them alone that's what you would have. Thinking that you have to shoot the does back or you would have a natural balance of 5:1 is NOT accurate. Facts. They get in the way of a good theory sometimes.

But we aren't raising deer in a sanctuary somewhere so let's move on to what's really happening in Alabama:

If you have 1 deer per 10 acres (which is considered good) and you have 500 acres you have 50 deer. If you start out with a 3:1 buck/doe ratio that's probably close to realistic at the beginning of hunting season. 15 bucks running around. Then you shoot 2-3 bucks each for 5 hunters on 500 acres. You have killed 20% of your overall deer population. The bucks have a higher mortality rate in general..... Whoops.... Now you have essentially wiped them out.

The result - Does are all you have left. Should sound familiar.

So this is what you do..... Shoot a bunch of does. Have less deer. Still have no bucks. Wonder why.

This is a simple concept some of y'all can't grasp.

I am not against managing does by shooting some of them. But the scenario above is what happens in Alabama and is exactly why people "think" they have too many does and need to shoot them. You don't have a doe problem you have people blasting small buck problem. If you shoot a bunch of the does you have less deer next season and even fewer the next and you still don't have a healthy deer herd with any age structure.

Should sound familiar because this is the deer herd in Alabama and doe shooting has done ZERO to help this. We've been doing this for 25 years show me where it has worked. It hasn't.

Shooting does is not the real problem and is definitely not the solution to having a better deer herd with better age structure. It just simply DOES NOT WORK as a blanket overall state wide management plan.


No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: booner] #3279949
12/01/20 12:19 PM
12/01/20 12:19 PM
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abolt300 Online content
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That's why if you only have 500 acres to hunt, you should never take more than 3 bucks year off of it (if it is very good habitat) and preferrably no more than 2 bucks (if it's only avg habitat). Do this and take no more than 5 or so does for meat, given it is only 500 acres. If you have bad neighbors that shoot everything they see, then you'll probably need to reduce these numbers down even more, as appropriate.

It's a real simple concept that you cant seem to grasp, or maybe you do, I just couldnt tell from your post above. Overharvesting and non-selective harvest is a major problem across most of AL. A 5 member club on 500 acres generally means at least 12-15 guns actually hunting it (kids, wives and guests) and everyone of them wants to kill a deer. That right there is the problem. If you've only got 500 acres to hunt and it is average land, average density, and average fawn recruitment for AL, you shouldnt be killing more than 6-8 deer total, off of it in any given year and for every buck killed, you need to kill 2-3 does to account for the 1:3 sex ratio and the fact that the bucks have a significantly higher mortality rate than the does.

If it is done right, it works very well. Problem is, to do it right, you have to have a very large tract of land and good neighbors.

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: Goatkiller] #3279950
12/01/20 12:21 PM
12/01/20 12:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,182
AL
booner Offline OP
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AL
Originally Posted by Goatkiller
The bucks do have a higher mortality rate. 50% of the fawns are bucks.

If you have 1 deer per 10 acres (which is considered good) and you have 500 acres you have 50 deer. If you start out with a 3:1 buck/doe ratio that's probably close to realistic at the beginning of hunting season. 15 bucks running around. Then you shoot 2-3 bucks each for 5 hunters on 500 acres. You have killed 20% of your overall deer population.

The bucks have a higher mortality rate in general..... Whoops.... Now you have essentially wiped them out.

The result - Does are all you have left.

Shoot a bunch of does. Have less deer. Still have no bucks.

This is a simple concept some of y'all can't grasp.

I am not against managing does by shooting some of them. But the scenario above is what happens in Alabama and is exactly why people "think" they have too many does and need to shoot them. You don't have a doe problem you have people blasting small buck problem. If you shoot a bunch of the does you have less deer next season and even fewer they next and you still don't have a healthy deer herd with any age structure.

Should sound familiar because this is the deer herd in Alabama and doe shooting has done ZERO to help this. We've been doing this for 25 years show me where it has worked. It hasn't.


Shooting does is not the real problem and is definitely not the solution to having a better deer herd with better age structure. It just simply DOES NOT WORK as a blanket overall state wide management plan.



We should hopefully be able to avoid this type of scenario with our property. I am not going to disclose the location or specifics, but we are now luckily part of a continuous 13k+ acre cooperative with the same goals in mind. Our particular property, which is new to us, was mistreated for some time before we took over so we are adopting the practices of our neighbor, which has had great success over a long period of time.

Our expectations from camera surveys is that we will most likely not take any more than 10 bucks this year as a group on a very large piece of land >6,000acres. And that is if every "shooter" and "cull" is taken which rarely ever happens. As stated to qualify as a shooter, the buck must be 4yr+ and all culls have to be pre-approved. Our goal for doe harvest is 50 for the year and will re-evaluate before next year to see where we need to make adjustments.

We understand that this is a long term process and a big commitment. I personally have told myself and other members to go ahead and accept not killing a buck from this property this season and probably not even the next. I keep calling it a 3-4 year probation period. It is a sacrifice we are willing to make in order to have something special.

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: booner] #3279961
12/01/20 12:50 PM
12/01/20 12:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 9,848
Mobile, AL
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alhawk Offline
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Mobile, AL
The most challenging part will be NOT shooting does on plots. Everyone might agree to it, but then won't know where to find them away from the grass.

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: booner] #3279967
12/01/20 01:01 PM
12/01/20 01:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,111
B'ham
Goatkiller Offline
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B'ham
abolt300 I think we agree. The only way to have "too many does" is an overharvest of the bucks. Pretty simple. Too many does doesn't happen naturally in nature. Natural ratio is 1 to 2:1 does/bucks if everything is left alone in a vacuum.

Blasting a bunch of does doesn't fix the overall problem. The evidence is all around us. We have been blasting does in this State for nearly 25 years and have little to no beneficial impact to the overall deer herd. People have got to quit shooting every 2 year old buck they see.

If you have too many does someone kilt all the bucks. Figure it out.


No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: Out back] #3279980
12/01/20 01:15 PM
12/01/20 01:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,612
Pelham
Ben2 Online IMG_0051.GIF
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Pelham
Originally Posted by Out back
Originally Posted by Ben2
Never made any difference. We have the exact same size bucks and length and duration of rut now not hardly shooting any does as we did for a decade when we shot 20 or so every year. The only difference we noticed was we saw fewer deer when hunting whem we wacked the does

I've heard that exact same statement from every hunter who smokes cigarettes and doesn't pay attention to scent control.

i dont smoke and never hunt a bad wind. Heck I wont even go if the wind is light and variable. I hunt a place that is 1200 acres and have hunted it for 30 years. We never have seen an increase in deer antlers we probably have larger body deer overall now then we did when we shot 20-30 does a year. I would say we have a 5-1 ratio. We had maybe a 2-1 ratio for a few years but we simply saw fewer deer per sit. No other change was noticed and we eventually decided we liked seeing 8-10 deer per sit as opposed to 3 or 4. When we shot all the does we had fewer fawns and fewer young bucks each year it seemed, the number of older deer has always been 3-5 per season (meaning 4+ yr old deer) regardless of doe harvest in the prior years.

Last edited by Ben2; 12/01/20 01:16 PM.
Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: Semo] #3279990
12/01/20 01:29 PM
12/01/20 01:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,537
Awbarn, AL
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Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
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Awbarn, AL
Originally Posted by Semo
The doe to buck ratio strategy is fine until the pop has a significant mortality event. Then it can be a real problem to rebound a population. I created and ran models on our place with these stochastic mortality events...the results are that the variation for doe harvest levels are difficult to predict. Once you go too far (whatever that number is) better keep your fingers crossed that mortality rates don't change.

In practice, our property had 3 bad years of ehd following a doe reduction plan. We have been a decade with almost no does harvested and limited population gains. There are a couple other factors (like flooding) which compound the issue but compounding factors are always around.

Point is, don't assume today's mortality rates will be the same as tomorrow's. Be careful when limiting the breeding females in a population.



thumbup


The Corn Crash!!!
Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: booner] #3279992
12/01/20 01:29 PM
12/01/20 01:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 664
Georgia
ALclearcut Offline
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ALclearcut  Offline
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Posts: 664
Georgia
Killing does only helps the buck quality if the deer don't have enough nutritious food. And a lack of food is much less common that most people seem to think now that most of the state is on a rotational pine harvesting cycle. Pines produce an enormous amount of deer browse throughout the cycle other than a few years in the middle where the canopy is shading the ground. It is now almost impossible to have more deer than the land can feed in a rotational pine plantation now that deer have natural predation from coyotes and disease. As long as you have plenty of food, killing does is only going to make you have less bucks, not more or higher quality bucks. The only way you get more quality and quantity of bucks is to shoot less bucks and let them age.

A ton of QDM followers mistakenly attribute the increased quantity of larger bucks they are seeing to their doe harvesting when in all reality it is because they are letting the bucks get older. Just because you let a buck walk doesn't mean you have to also shoot a doe. You may just need to have an empty freezer for a few years until you get more aged bucks in your herd.

There are some places that truly are overpopulated and need doe thinning, but like Matt Brock said, most people don't know enough about what they are doing to know when they need to thin a herd. And the result is that in places where every 100 or so acres is owned by different people, you end up with way too few deer because all it takes is one of those 6 property owners in that square mile to start killing too many does, and now the other 5 owners have to deal with the consequences of that. The one size fits all unlimited doe harvest for the state has been a disaster and you would think that after 25 years of it, the state would have enough evidence to know that it isn't working. We need to go back to the default rule of limited or no doe killing allowed and let the people who feel like they have an overpopulated herd apply for a doe permit like they used to.

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: ALclearcut] #3280064
12/01/20 02:54 PM
12/01/20 02:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,121
Georgia and Missouri
Semo Offline
12 point
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Georgia and Missouri
Originally Posted by ALclearcut
Killing does only helps the buck quality if the deer don't have enough nutritious food. And a lack of food is much less common that most people seem to think now that most of the state is on a rotational pine harvesting cycle. Pines produce an enormous amount of deer browse throughout the cycle other than a few years in the middle where the canopy is shading the ground. It is now almost impossible to have more deer than the land can feed in a rotational pine plantation now that deer have natural predation from coyotes and disease. As long as you have plenty of food, killing does is only going to make you have less bucks, not more or higher quality bucks. The only way you get more quality and quantity of bucks is to shoot less bucks and let them age.

A ton of QDM followers mistakenly attribute the increased quantity of larger bucks they are seeing to their doe harvesting when in all reality it is because they are letting the bucks get older. Just because you let a buck walk doesn't mean you have to also shoot a doe. You may just need to have an empty freezer for a few years until you get more aged bucks in your herd.

There are some places that truly are overpopulated and need doe thinning, but like Matt Brock said, most people don't know enough about what they are doing to know when they need to thin a herd. And the result is that in places where every 100 or so acres is owned by different people, you end up with way too few deer because all it takes is one of those 6 property owners in that square mile to start killing too many does, and now the other 5 owners have to deal with the consequences of that. The one size fits all unlimited doe harvest for the state has been a disaster and you would think that after 25 years of it, the state would have enough evidence to know that it isn't working. We need to go back to the default rule of limited or no doe killing allowed and let the people who feel like they have an overpopulated herd apply for a doe permit like they used to.


Yes sir.

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: Semo] #3280106
12/01/20 03:52 PM
12/01/20 03:52 PM
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Posts: 295
Al
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Buck slayer 15 Offline
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Al
Yes that is true

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: booner] #3280107
12/01/20 03:52 PM
12/01/20 03:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,739
Elmore County
Frankie Online content
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To me this is one of the topics that's old and boring .

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: booner] #3280152
12/01/20 04:48 PM
12/01/20 04:48 PM
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Moody, Al
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chad1980 Offline
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Moody, Al
I said this on the other doe killing post and I will elaborate on this one. On our Illinois lease I personally (and I am not the worlds greatest hunter) managed to see in a weeks time several 120-130 inch deer, and piles of young bucks. On the other hand I think that I saw maybe 12 does the entire time I was hunting. The deer I saw cruising the cut corn fields were all bucks. The largest group of does that I saw was 3 antlerless deer. This is on about 500 acres of land 300 of which is hardwoods surrounded by ag fields. My take away from my first time up there aside from the fact that there were bucks everywhere, is that I see far more does here in Alabama on food plots than I did up there. Were the does locked down? Are there less does? Are there far more bucks than does? I am not real sure but I found it odd.

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: booner] #3280157
12/01/20 04:51 PM
12/01/20 04:51 PM
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Posts: 3,679
Camden, AL
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SwampHunter Offline
10 point
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Camden, AL
Go to the Gettin Outdoors Podcast and listen to what Mark Buxton says about killing does. Really good info on which ones to shoot, which ones to leave. And whether or not you need to shoot any does at all. And don't let your numbers get so low where you fall into what he called the "predator pit." Been there and that's not fun.

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: Frankie] #3280159
12/01/20 04:52 PM
12/01/20 04:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,537
Awbarn, AL
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Originally Posted by Frankie
To me this is one of the topics that's old and boring .




I agree but yet its still an unsolved issue moving forward.....


The Corn Crash!!!
Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: booner] #3280207
12/01/20 06:04 PM
12/01/20 06:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,569
Tuscaloosa
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hawndog Online content
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Tuscaloosa
Everyone around me took all of this as gospel when they started the kill all the does talk and opened up the doe season. We went from seeing 10-20 deer every weekend to 10-20 a year. We are finally regaining some numbers, but it took 20 years. We did not see more bucks, Rut did not intensify, Bucks did not get bigger.

If you are seeing 1 or 2 bucks per sit you are well above the curve. If you shoot a bunch of does you will have less deer, you will see less deer. The only reason to shoot them from a management perspective is if you truly are overpopulated. There are very few placed left in Alabama where that is the case. If you have plenty of deer and want to shoot some does, fine, shoot them. Do not expect to then start seeing more bucks. If you shoot too many it can take a while to recover.

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: Mbrock] #3280249
12/01/20 06:49 PM
12/01/20 06:49 PM
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Posts: 1,569
Tuscaloosa
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hawndog Online content
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Tuscaloosa
Originally Posted by Mbrock
Originally Posted by ScentFreeHunter
Originally Posted by Mbrock
Increased body weights, increased fawn recruitment, more intense rutting behavior and day light observations of bucks. That’s it wrapped up in one sentence.


This. We started managing 10+ years ago and I have hunted the property for 25+ years. For the first 15 years, hardly any does were taken and every buck with a spike on their head was shot. It was nothing to see 10-15 and even 20 does on every sit and you could hunt the entire season and see 2 or 3 bucks. Management started with biologist recommendation of taking 50 does the first year, which we came close to doing (it's a large piece of property). Then 35 the next year, 25 the year after that. We also put in a rule that bucks must be 4.5 years old to be taken. Was slow on buck harvest those first few years, but the long-term results have been WELL worth it. We now have a very well balanced heard, I see bucks nearly every time I hunt, and it is not unusual to see 4 or 5 bucks on a sit during the rut. During those first 15 years, I never saw a buck that was harvested that was over 175 lbs or over 125 inches. Now we kill bucks every year over 200 lbs and have killed 6 bucks over 140 inches in the last 6 years, with 2 of them over 150 inches. I used to think grunting and rattling from the stand was a waste of time, something you only saw work on some hunting video. Now I regularly call in bucks during the rut because we have a much higher number of bucks and the higher number causes much more intense competition for the does.

The formula is pretty simple: reduce the doe numbers and let the bucks walk until they are mature. Once you reach a more natural buck/doe ratio, cut the doe harvest down to a reasonable number to maintain the balance. Endure the low buck harvest for the first few years and then enjoy the fruits of your patience!


Precisely!! Some of the best hunting you’ll ever experience is on properties like this.

The unfortunate part lies with the fact that IMPROPER excessive doe harvest has been applied where it shouldn’t have been for far longer than it should have been, by unqualified folks to make those decisions. Then the results can and have been disastrous. I think that’s where a lot of the naysayers come from. Proper doe management, within reason, along with letting immature bucks walk does lead to far better hunting. I’ve seen it on way too many places. And I’ve seen the happy hunters who get to see it.


Finally some sense from the QDMERs. Having bucks means not killing all the bucks. Killing does will not make bucks appear. If you need to reduce overall numbers shoot some does, then quit or back off. People Just hear shoot every doe you see and ignore the rest and keep shooting does. Then shoot all the small bucks cause that is all that is left. Then you have nothing.

Re: Aggressive Doe Harvesting [Re: ScentFreeHunter] #3280250
12/01/20 06:50 PM
12/01/20 06:50 PM
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Posts: 5,517
Land of the free because of th...
mike35549 Offline
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Land of the free because of th...
Originally Posted by ScentFreeHunter
Originally Posted by Mbrock
Increased body weights, increased fawn recruitment, more intense rutting behavior and day light observations of bucks. That’s it wrapped up in one sentence.


This. We started managing 10+ years ago and I have hunted the property for 25+ years. For the first 15 years, hardly any does were taken and every buck with a spike on their head was shot. It was nothing to see 10-15 and even 20 does on every sit and you could hunt the entire season and see 2 or 3 bucks. Management started with biologist recommendation of taking 50 does the first year, which we came close to doing (it's a large piece of property). Then 35 the next year, 25 the year after that. We also put in a rule that bucks must be 4.5 years old to be taken. Was slow on buck harvest those first few years, but the long-term results have been WELL worth it. We now have a very well balanced heard, I see bucks nearly every time I hunt, and it is not unusual to see 4 or 5 bucks on a sit during the rut. During those first 15 years, I never saw a buck that was harvested that was over 175 lbs or over 125 inches. Now we kill bucks every year over 200 lbs and have killed 6 bucks over 140 inches in the last 6 years, with 2 of them over 150 inches. I used to think grunting and rattling from the stand was a waste of time, something you only saw work on some hunting video. Now I regularly call in bucks during the rut because we have a much higher number of bucks and the higher number causes much more intense competition for the does.

The formula is pretty simple: reduce the doe numbers and let the bucks walk until they are mature. Once you reach a more natural buck/doe ratio, cut the doe harvest down to a reasonable number to maintain the balance. Endure the low buck harvest for the first few years and then enjoy the fruits of your patience!


Pretty obvious why y’all didn’t see any bucks those first 15 years. They all got shot when they was 18 months old. I guess y’all eventually figured that out since you quit killing them.


If you're gonna be stupid you better be tough.
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