Of noxious weeds. Have been fighting Sicklepod and Nut Grass the last couple of years. Tuesday morning I went into a thin area of my corn/bean field to spray all the weeds growing cause it did not canopy. Found a small patch of round up resistant Pigweed ie Palmers Amaranth ie the frickin Devil. I got about 1/2 of it pulled and on burn pile up rest is supposed to get done today cause I had to come home

The soil conditions that have been created is your culprit..... likely the absence of soil organic matter and soil microbes. Probably heavily dominated by bacteria.

Soil conditions don’t create weeds you dummy. Palmer moves in from an animal or piece of equipment or in seed bags. You make some stupid comments but that’s the dumbest one yet I’ve seen you make.

Hell, I would sale the place.

What’s the remedy for sickle pod?

Soil conditions absolutely do dictate which "weeds" or native vegetation you see occurring in most situations. These conditions are typically a result of management practices.

You’re so full of schit. We have perfect fertility soil up here and we have all the weeds bradb has. It’s all about cultural control. Not soil dip wad

Phenoxy or gly. And that’s about it. Phenoxy is 24d or dicamba.

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Well here’s a Karen. Awwwww

Not really, I think CNC is a good guy and you’re unnecessarily a dick to him for no valid reason. But that’s my 2cents.

This group in general might not be the best at following rules.

Broadhead, there are different ways to be a dick. Maybe you just pick up on 257s way a little easier. Sometimes the dickness is a little more subtle. But what do I know

I got you, my initial post was more in jest, but he had to pull the Karen card.

Speaking of, I demand to speak to ze manager!

Each plant has its own preferences to the specific growing conditions that it thrives in. Variables such as compaction, poor soil structure, poor aeration, low pH, low soil carbon, absence or dominance of certain soil microbes, etc, etc…..these are all soil conditions that set the stage for some plants to thrive and others to remain virtually non-existent.

I use to have several good size patches of sicklepod but you would be hard pressed to find a single plant now. I believe it started disappearing when fungi returned to my field and the soil had a better balance of bacteria to fungi. Crabgrass was another plant that nearly dominated the whole field in the first few years when there was no soil organic matter and no soil structure. There’s only a small amount of it left now. I suspect I will begin to see more and more NWSG’s emerge in the future to take its place as the summer “grass” component.....Soil conditions effect which plants we see present

You must be sucking one of the mods toes for them on the weekends for them to allow you to keep on acting like you do.

Im not running CNC down. He has his methods. 257 makes a living managing alot of farmland. If he used CNCs methods, he and his customers would be broke pretty quick. However CNCs methods work well for him in his situation. They cross easy and it probably wont ever get any better. Just one of the fine properties of a trully aldeer experience.

Do you think not disking had anything to do with some of those weeds vanishing. You wont find a trace of any nutgrass in our orchard but I would bet the farm, youd have a fine stand of it if I disked it up. Sicklepod acts the same. There wasnt a bit of it where im growing watermelons this year, until I turned it. Its covered up with it now. I had a small pasture I kept a couple horses on, really poor ground. I disked it and planted grass and here come the sicklepod. After that I never did anything but bushhog now and then and the sicklepod eventually went away. The ground was still poor, it would barely even grow grass. Turning and disking will definately make the weeds come up.

Absolutely like I stated above cultural methods can flare weed seeds that have been laying dormant for long time. That doesn’t indicate poor soil or anything like that. Palmer pigweeds thrive on less canopy competition. Sicklepod can lay dormant for 30 plus years deep in soil then turned to the top and boom here they come. Most weed seed have vectors that distribute them. Equipment animals and so forth. So once again BradB situation doesn’t mean “he caused it” ruining his ground

You better believe it. I try to keep my equipment clean of dirt and debris after each job.

Ive just seen weeds come and go and I know it was because I left the ground alone and the weeds played out. Im not saying the fungus/bacteria theory is wrong or couldnt happen. Im just saying I know what ive experienced.

I don’t think the lack of disking up the seedbed really had anything to do with what I saw. The seedbed hasn’t been disked in my field for years yet I still have an abundance of beneficial native plants that sprout and grow. There’s no doubt still plenty of sicklepod seed still there too and it was there in the top part of the seed bank just the same in the year it started disappearing. If I had to bet I’d say that the microbial community probably played the biggest role in its disappearance. There’s a lot that goes on down there amongst all the little soil critters and we’ve only begun to scratch the surface of our understanding of it. I’m guessing that as my microbial community returned and became more vibrant and diverse…..there was some critter/plant interaction that produced a chemical or hormone, etc that suppressed the sicklepod. That may or may not be it but there was some variable about the soil conditions that changed that basically shut it down.

See some sicklepod in our plots usually around the corn feeder. I am pretty sure the key to keeping it from spreading is the have a soil PH between 3.5 and 4.0. That has been keeping it in check for us anyway. Only downside is nothing else grows to good either.

Lmao. True mike

One example that most of us would be familiar with that shows how easily it would be possible for a plant or microbe to suppress the sicklepod is the allelopathic effect that cereal rye possesses. Cereal rye secretes a chemical that prohibits the germination of many small seeded plants. This is one of the reasons many farmers use it for a cover crop. The same general thing could be possible for a chemical that is released that prohibits the germination of the sicklepod seeds. Typically nature provides some type of counter measure for each and every thing. You don’t see any wild stand of pure sicklepod growing anywhere do you? Probably not….it’s man’s hands that create the conditions for such.


Here’s a short video talking about the basics of the interactions between plant roots and the microbial community…….

I have a couple things to do tomorrow morning but if I can get finished I am going to go head and disk up all my food plots late afternoon. I will probably disk them 3 times before I plant. Why? Cheaper than spraying. I can do all 30-35 acres in a couple hours and 20 gal of fuel is a lot cheaper. By a long shot.

If you guys want to come watch.... I would like to collect your tears and use them to water my corn.

If you can turn 45 acres an hour, I do want to watch. I'll bring the beer. 👍

We used to turn more then that. A couple 3-400hp tractor and 35’ discs traveling at 6mph will turn a lot of ground fast. I loved discing long rectangular fields. Cover a lot of ground when you don’t have to turn much.

These new high speed disks are fun to pull. 12 mph behind a 580 hp quad trac

The highway department has dun an awesome job spreading Cogon grass and never had to break a piece of ground.

Code Red!.....Code Red!......

If that video is legit it just further proves in my mind how Gods plan didnt leave anything out. Now tell me how these practices can keep 8billion people fed three times a day. Organic hippie farming is a great concept but even hippies will tell you they cant farm this way and produce enough food to keep them alive. It just wont work for everybody.

That British chic is kinda hot though.

I'm not trying to feed the world....just the deer on my place.....and I agree that she is kinda hot....I think it's the accent that does it

I have it in one field and I sprayed gly and killed it. It's coming on again. It's about 2" tall. I'll spray it again in about a week. This field has always had a problem with it. The problem is, it never shows up until June. I usually plant summer plot May. I don't disk. It'll come back in a few years, it always does. The key, is to sacrafice planting a summer plot in the field where it is and just concentrate on killing it when small.

I would say that I think the spraying may be one of the issues Blum.....but then Tito will come running up in here like Yosemite Sam rootin and tootin.....

Nah blumsden. You can surely kill it with microbes, earthworms and more weeds.

It's "native vegetation"......weeds are for farmers....I manage wildlife

The irony of your sarcasm is that you’re exactly right……What would happen if Blum just walked away today and abandoned that field? Would it be overtaken and become a field of sicklepod for years to come? No it wouldn’t…..Why?,,,,,,,Because nature constantly progresses from pioneer to climax conditions and as that change occurs the species composition changes with it. I’m betting that if you came back in 5 years that you wouldn’t find hardly any sicklepod at all in his field if any….Will spraying it keep it from coming back next year….and the next??.....No it won't....because spraying is simply treating a symptom of the problem and not the root cause.

I’m betting if I come back in 5 years you’re still a dumbass.

We'll....I may be....but I'll be a dumbass who doesn't have sicklepod problems.....

Sicklepod is the least of your problems.

I've found, you either have sicklepod or not. Spraying is not the issue. I waited too late to spray the first time. I do the same in all my fields, but only have it in one. It's always been an issue about every 5 years.

If I came back in five years the Sicklepod would be replaced by pine and sweetgum trees.Neither which feed deer.

You'd be surprised how well a pine thicket can feed deer.

We would definitely have nothing but sweetgum if we didn't touch our fields for 5 years.

Why yes, Captain Obvious, a pine thicket does feed deer.Just not nearly as efficiently as a field of fertilized Soybeans.I have about a 160 acres of planted pines for them to scavenge in should they choose and they would do just fine since the pines are thinnned and burned. My summer plots are there to attract them to the area and give the does and their fawns a positive edge on nutritition and cover.I have no illusions that what I plant is providing the majority of their food, its just icing on the cake.Plus I just like growing things, got that from my Grandfather who truck farmed this place in my youth.

Yep, woody species would eventually take hold with sweetgum being one of the first ones to arrive on the scene......but it would go through a progression to get to that point. It would start out with your pioneer understory plants and then transition to the ones that are more favorable to wildlife.....things like pokewwed, ragweed, dewberry, etc.....It's the change in soil conditions that triggers the more favorable plants to germinate and grow. It's also the change to a more fungally dominated soil that brings on the woody species. The key to good fertile vegetative growth is to continue to allow the soil to progress but reset the succession of the vegetation without destroying the soil in the process and reverting it back to the pioneer plants

I love it when my neighbors plant soybeans and keep the feeders full all summer.
I'll put up a ladder stand on the property line and take advantage of their expense and hard work. 👍
They lease the land and live out of state. I live here and hunt 7 days a week. It works out perfectly.

The whole point here being.......if you want to quit fighting pioneer "weed" species......then quit reverting your soil back to pioneer conditions

Hell, I would not expect anything less from ya Out Back.Although in all fairness I actually plan on sitting the line next year because I have a couple of places that are looking just to good to pass up. The difference between me and the neighbor is I wont actually be able to see deer on his property, but hell if ya can't beat em, join em.

You should feel free to enjoy every square inch of your property.
Whether you own it or lease it. Every square inch is available for your use and enjoyment. 👍

Actually the whole point is there’s multiple ways to do things. What works for one person might not work for others and visa versa

Sure... there are lots of different ways to do things.... I'm simply explaining how soil functions.....everyone is free to take it or leave it.....and certainly free to choose their own methods.

I must have missed a few responses. I didn’t notice this one or Blum’s…

The point of that was not about sweetgum and pine feeding deer…..it was to illustrate how nature would get rid of the sicklepod permanently without you doing anything at all. Yet our “solution” of spraying only eliminates it temporarily and then we have to deal with it or another pioneer specie again. It’s something in the natural progression of the soil conditions that eliminates the sicklepod. You can still grow beneficial plants for the deer but the soil conditions need to progress out of the pioneer stage or nature will just continue to put out those types of plants…..Its natures attempt to repair the soil.

Blum……I think there are unintended consequences of spraying chemicals that we don’t have a full understanding of yet. The soil food web is a big chain with all the links tied together. You start eliminating some of the links and other links fall as well. There’s a very good chapter in the One Straw Revolution that describes a series of events just like this. We may not be aware of what its effecting but I would just about guarantee that chemicals impact some form of microbes, etc…

Dang all the way in deer management thread..

I got pig weed I k ow what caused it and know what I use to kill it:.. don’t know bout the sickle pod though..
Come get a bale of hay from me that had been fertilized with my chicken litter, feed it to some cows, take the cows off of it when they eat it all and you can have
my pig weed and little yellow flowers in the spring

CNC says you can borrow puff the magic dragon.

I'm not saying this is or isn't your situation.....I'm just commenting on traditional pasture management in general. Many of the problems folks see on cattle pasture land arise from very similar issues. Its because of soil conditions but the difference being that the problematic soil conditions have usually been caused from over grazing. When grasses are over grazed then they're root systems become more and more shallow. Problems insue like poor soil structure and poor areaation, compaction.....many of the pasture weeds that folks deal with as a result are pioneer species that are designed to alleviate the soil of these issues. It's nature's fix.....Many of these plants are seen as the nastiest of the nasties because they have to be in order for them to thrive in the poor conditions they are trying to grow in. Nature is designed this way so that the earth will be replenished with vegetation no matter what happens. It will progress from pioneer to climax conditions if allowed to do so or if the same priciples are implemented. It's only our management practices that keep it in the degredaded pioneer conditions

The peanut gallery.suits you well.

Here's another example to illustrate this concept.....When a mature stand of timber is clear-cut.....what species of understory plants do you see return immediately? Is it sicklepod, pigweed, nutgrass, etc....???....No.... usually not.....Why not?? ...Because the soil is in an advanced stage where it is rich with soil organic matter and teaming with a vibrant microbial community that is fungally dominated. It's not not in pioneer conditions where these plants are designed to thrive and grow.

In said pasture the only pigweed is where the hay was fed, 30+- acres used for weening only, bush hogged but never fertilized, only thing I
Know that’s the cause of it..

If you're not familiar with it.....do some research into the concept of "rotational grazing" also called "mob grazing".....and look at how they use some of the same principles. Also check out the specific traits of pigweed and the soil conditions that it favors. See if there is any correlation between those conditions and what you have in your field. I'm sure the problem did come in with the bay but maybe it will help you get rid of the problem long term instead of only having a temporary fix

CNC you should patent the proprietary microbe composition you’ve “created” with literally no effort.

It’s like the 2020 version of Mona Vie; except it’s microbes not acai berry.

CNC votes for Biden all day and everyday. Mark it

Yep….when you can’t back up the merits of your own argument then switch to discrediting the messenger…..You’ve gotten pretty pathetic with your behavior.

I haven’t created anything….it’s simply just the natural process of things. Hell. I learned about how species transition from pioneer to climax in Forestry School. You know I find it ironic how much praying goes on for each other around here yet when it comes to this discussion you want to act as if the things in nature don’t have any kind of design or purpose. What? You think all of these plants are just randomly growing with no rhyme or reason??

No dude, I think you're the guy who sees a huge pile of horse manure under your feet and is smiling because there's a horse nearby. I.e., you're (probably unintentionally) looking at weeds and trying to find the good in it, even for noxious weeds. Other people don't view them the same. They're an agronomic problem, not a benefit.

I disagree….They do have a agronomic benefit and a purpose. Their job is to be the first ones in to a degraded situation. They reestablish root channels….recover the soil surface…..stop any erosion….etc….They are like the first responders of the plant world. They are what we call “noxious” so that they are able to do their first responder jobs without the animals wiping them out. If that happened then the situation would possibly remain degraded forever. Its only after these plants have done their job and the soil has been put back on a path to being healthy and fertile again that the other plants…more beneficial to wildlife…..return and take their place. If soil is kept in a situation where its void of organic matter and life….then nature will continue to send in the first responders.


“The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant, "What good is it?" If the land mechanism as a whole is good, then every part is good, whether we understand it or not. If the biota, in the course of aeons, has built something we like but do not understand, then who but a fool would discard seemingly useless parts? To keep every cog and wheel is the first precaution of intelligent tinkering.”

--- Aldo Leopold

You need to familiarize yourself with what agronomic actually means then.

”It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it.”

CNC and agronomist in the same sentence is laughable.

The science of soil management and crop production......What's your point? You just reaching for whatever lifleline you can grab?

My point is that your festering weed garden doesn’t fit in crop production, in any way. You’re trying to sell a bill of goods that has no realistic application to anything involving crops. It’s a joke. Deer will eat your weeds, but they’d prefer a clean weed-free field of soybeans 100 out of 100 times. You trying to change the subject is comical. There’s your lifeline, weed man.

Hey pass that man some more weed.

You talking bout The Godfather of patties “Gregg Judy” at green pastures farms stuff like pack it down
I get the whole concept of “GRASS Farming” but when you buy hay with weed seed in it it’s gonna get there
via the hay..I got some kudzu for land erosion man.. and pass that this way 257..

Outside the box this is hilarious, a weed man and a weed killer Man in conversation

Well for one like I’ve said before…..this is a deer forum and we’re managing wildlife….not farmers producing row crops. So much of what farmers might have to do is irrelevant to how we can manage. That being said though you’re wrong about my “festering weed garden” not being applicable. The principles of soil health are still being followed and still the exact same. Agronomy is the science of soil management…..well, that’s exactly what these plants were put on the earth to do…..take care of the soil and feed the animals……Is it not? Are these “festering weeds” not the most superior soil managers on the planet? Put your soybeans up side by side with teaweed and see which one outcompetes the other when a drought hits or when deer heavily browse it or when it's in poor sandy soil….Plant your soybeans in some these degraded fields of sand here in South Alabama and see how well they grow and repair the degraded conditions. My festering weed garden as you call it has gained nearly 7% soil organic matter since I started in some of the worst sand in south alabama. At last check it was holding over 4000 lbs of CA to the acre as a result with balanced nutrient levels that don't leach away as fast as you can add them. That’s the field deer prefer to feed in and I don’t have to plant soybeans in order to draw them in. I’m consistently holding as many deer on my property as the surrounding bedding cover witl allow and I’m doing it at a fraction of the cost and labor as what you’re suggesting. The end results haven’t been too bad either as my “festering weed garden” has produced 12 mature bucks. Isn’t it the end result that really matters to us anyways?

Y’all keep trying…..maybe bring in three or four more folks to help out…….it just gives me a reason to talk about it. I think I may go roll a big fat one now just for yall...

On the idea that deer prefer a weed free field of soybeans 100 times out of 100……

Soybeans are definitely an attractive draw and there’s certainly nothing wrong with someone planting them if they have the means to be able to grow them. However, deer are browsers that consume a large variety of vegetation in order to meet their nutritional needs. No matter how many corn feeders you put out or how many acres of soybeans you plant….it will only make up a small portion of the deer’s overall diet. What a deer would prefer is rich diversity……and there is nothing better that supplies that to them than a highly fertile field of 25+ different native plant species that are vibrant and healthy. Its able to supply them with most of the nutritional needs all from one spot and across a large time spectrum. There's something there to provide them with their needs week in and week out during the spring and summer months.

They'll definitely pick my soybeans over your sida. But we get it, you respond to every post, deer eat some weeds. They still like weed free soybeans or weed free clover over your sida and dog fennel.

That may be, but I'm going to spray it, because if I dont it will canopy and choke everything out. This has been a field for 30 years. It gets lined and fertilized. It hasn't been disked in 10 years. Plenty of carbon with grass plenty of certain and other broadleaf. But every 5 years or so it comes on with a vengeance, and I'm gonna kill it. I can handle most weeds, but the two I can't stand in my plot is sicklepod and dog fennel. I dont mind dog fennel around my plot, it makes a hell of a screen, but I will not tolerate it in my plot.

That's completely absurd to state that deer prefer something "weed free"..... Whatever keeps the chemicals flowing though I suppose.......

I have over 25 different species growing

Do you have any of the IRAQI FREEDOM? it soothes my ptsd The best

And out of those 25 weeds how many do they actively browse, ie preferred.I am a little CNC and a little 257, I foster native stuff but also love my tiller and acres of beans/corn and other planted stuff.What I have observed is the browse on natives is variable and generally pretty light especially on the weeds that make up the majority of my weed bank. I have never seen Ragweed or Blackberry browsed on my place except around fertilized tree cages where they kill it.The Partidge Pea grows all summer and then they will annihilate it in a week or two.Take a walk through the thinned burned pines and there is browse here and there, but it is pretty obvious what they prefer because there are no native food sources that look like my bean field.I am sure I could never plant another food plot and the deer would thrive.But what I am trying to do, with my summer plots especially, is give them an incentive to be on my place, not my neighbors,and hopefully get an added 10-15% boost in general health and size.100-pound does are fine, 120-140 -pound does are better, at least in my opinion.And from the does come all good things.

About 70% of them are browsed. They are utilized at different times during the spring and summer. Many are used during the late summer when its typically our worst stress period for deer




So what do you suppose they would do to it in a fertilized field?.....Better yet, what do suppose they would do to it in a fertilized field that was rich with black dirt, with a balanced pH, with high Ca levels, etc....

Brad ive seen deer walk across a green field and eat blackberries, privet, green briars, etc. However in the evening when all the deer are piling out to feed, they do seem to be drawn to the pretty green fields. In that first statement, I did say "ive seen". That dont mean its an everyday occurrence, but I have seen it.

Deer are browser's, they eat more weeds than anything. The reason being is that nature provides a helluva lot more food than we can.

Something that your neighbors likely don't have are fields full of rich black topsoil. That'll pay the biggest dividends for you come January as well. If you haven't done so yet....do some research on the term BRIX and see if you think that would impact your food plots

This term gets misused quite often..........

A weed is a plant considered undesirable in a particular situation, "a plant in the wrong place". The term "weed" has no botanical significance, because a plant that is a weed in one context is not a weed when growing in a situation where it is in fact wanted

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weed

So how long does it take to change your soil composition with the no till method?
I've been spraying, spreading and bushhogging for a couple of years now and am wondering the best way to tell the change of the soil composition. Soil sample?

Grab a handful of the soil on the top layer you can tell if you are doing it right.