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Re: Killing does [Re: CAL] #3059466
03/05/20 08:53 PM
03/05/20 08:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,611
Orange Beach, AL
J
JohnG Offline
8 point
JohnG  Offline
8 point
J
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,611
Orange Beach, AL
Take it from somebody that has 1165 acres of mainly native deer under high fence, bucks die at a super high rate due to fighting and getting run down. We try to keep our doe population at around 125 and there are no more than eight bucks a year taken. In a perfect world you would think you should have at least 60 bucks having a birthday every year but that is not the case. We may have five a year that make it to five years old.

Last edited by JohnG; 03/05/20 09:11 PM.
Re: Killing does [Re: Mbrock] #3059514
03/05/20 09:35 PM
03/05/20 09:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377
Gulfcrest
bigt Offline
14 point
bigt  Offline
14 point
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377
Gulfcrest
Originally Posted by Mbrock
QDMA never has preached kill all the does. People without a strong understanding of deer management applied heavy doe harvest improperly in some areas and blamed QDMA because they screwed up. That’s one of the most often used excuses I hear, and QDMA has received a ton of bad publicity for something they never preached. They encouraged annual doe harvest as part of a comprehensive management plan, and it should be exercised in such a way as to accomplish landowner objectives. Sadly, some people took that too far and who gets the blame? Not the ones who made that decision. The QDMA. That’s 100% FACT. grin

I don’t blame the QDMA. I blame the State and their inability to see what the results of the liberal doe harvest would have in a State full of sure enough killers.


Life is too short to be small !!

http://crshuntingclub.webs.com/
Re: Killing does [Re: AJones] #3059515
03/05/20 09:36 PM
03/05/20 09:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377
Gulfcrest
bigt Offline
14 point
bigt  Offline
14 point
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,377
Gulfcrest
Originally Posted by AJones
A large portion of deer hunters in Alabama are not thinking deer management when they pull the trigger on a doe. It is legal so it must be ok. Time to rethink our current system.

^^^^^^ Fact


Life is too short to be small !!

http://crshuntingclub.webs.com/
Re: Killing does [Re: JohnG] #3059518
03/05/20 09:37 PM
03/05/20 09:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,517
Land of the free because of th...
mike35549 Offline
12 point
mike35549  Offline
12 point
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,517
Land of the free because of th...
Originally Posted by JohnG
Take it from somebody that has 1165 acres of mainly native deer under high fence, bucks die at a super high rate due to fighting and getting run down. We try to keep our doe population at around 125 and there are no more than eight bucks a year taken. In a perfect world you would think you should have at least 60 bucks having a birthday every year but that is not the case. We may have five a year that make it to five years old.


So out of 150-175 fawns born each year only 5 bucks a year make it to 5 years old. I presume you are trying to only kill what you consider mature bucks, that is insane. How many does do you have to kill a year to maintain the doe population at 125.


If you're gonna be stupid you better be tough.
Re: Killing does [Re: CAL] #3059627
03/05/20 10:53 PM
03/05/20 10:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,535
Awbarn, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Offline
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,535
Awbarn, AL
I'd be careful comparing high fence stats to those outside of the fence even if it is 1165....if the buck population is pretty much at maximum capacity then there just isn't anywhere for the subordinate bucks to move to like in a free range setting. I'd bet there way more social conflict inside of a fence like that. Outside of the fence there will be places void of bucks where the ones that get run off can move to. Isee it every year here as I go from nothing but does to bucks suddenly showing up. Much less fighting

Last edited by CNC; 03/05/20 10:54 PM.

The Corn Crash!!!
Re: Killing does [Re: Goatkiller] #3060092
03/06/20 03:27 PM
03/06/20 03:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
280REM Offline
3 point
280REM  Offline
3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
Originally Posted by Goatkiller
Wait a second.....

we are now trying to say that does produce more does than bucks naturally? So if you have more does they will breed and produce more does?

It is getting DEEP round here. DEEP.

Having and seeing are too different things. IF you property survey your deer herd and.....


Again... if you have "too many does" 4:1 vs bucks or more..... someone killed the bucks. Y'all are talking about "I need to shoot these 30 does". That's more than a little out of whack.

Someone shot the bucks. That is the ONLY logical reason your ratio would be that messed up.

100% FACT.

What do y'all think happens... do you think does are just hatching up out of the mud?


Typically does produce roughly 1 to 1 ratio of bucks to does. Buck mortality is naturally higher. A "perfectly balance by nature" herd wouldn't be quite 1 to 1. It would be very very slightly doe heavy.

If you started the season with a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio, and shot 90% of your bucks and 0% of your does, after natural mortality and fawn recruitment factored in the following season, you'd have probably a better doe to buck ratio (like 3 to 1) to start the season. It's near biological impossibility to have worse than a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio to start your season. The best management will never get you to a true 1 to 1, but with good management you can have less than 2 to 1 ratio. Even with poor management you'll float around 3 or 4 to 1.

Re: Killing does [Re: WmHunter] #3060094
03/06/20 03:28 PM
03/06/20 03:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
280REM Offline
3 point
280REM  Offline
3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
Originally Posted by WmHunter
The QDMA association has preached kill every doe you can see for the last 20 years.
And worship every SOOS and every other scabby inferior antler buck you see.

Not even close.

Re: Killing does [Re: 280REM] #3060115
03/06/20 04:20 PM
03/06/20 04:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
central ala,
C
centralala Offline
14 point
centralala  Offline
14 point
C
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
central ala,
Originally Posted by 280REM
Originally Posted by Goatkiller
Wait a second.....

we are now trying to say that does produce more does than bucks naturally? So if you have more does they will breed and produce more does?

It is getting DEEP round here. DEEP.

Having and seeing are too different things. IF you property survey your deer herd and.....


Again... if you have "too many does" 4:1 vs bucks or more..... someone killed the bucks. Y'all are talking about "I need to shoot these 30 does". That's more than a little out of whack.

Someone shot the bucks. That is the ONLY logical reason your ratio would be that messed up.

100% FACT.

What do y'all think happens... do you think does are just hatching up out of the mud?


Typically does produce roughly 1 to 1 ratio of bucks to does. Buck mortality is naturally higher. A "perfectly balance by nature" herd wouldn't be quite 1 to 1. It would be very very slightly doe heavy.

If you started the season with a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio, and shot 90% of your bucks and 0% of your does, after natural mortality and fawn recruitment factored in the following season, you'd have probably a better doe to buck ratio (like 3 to 1) to start the season. It's near biological impossibility to have worse than a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio to start your season. The best management will never get you to a true 1 to 1, but with good management you can have less than 2 to 1 ratio. Even with poor management you'll float around 3 or 4 to 1.



BS!!! Did you just make that up?? 5:1 ratio. Shoot 90% bucks and no does and the results is less does at a 3:1 ratio. Think about what you just said.

Re: Killing does [Re: centralala] #3060177
03/06/20 05:49 PM
03/06/20 05:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
280REM Offline
3 point
280REM  Offline
3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
Originally Posted by centralala
Originally Posted by 280REM
Originally Posted by Goatkiller
Wait a second.....

we are now trying to say that does produce more does than bucks naturally? So if you have more does they will breed and produce more does?

It is getting DEEP round here. DEEP.

Having and seeing are too different things. IF you property survey your deer herd and.....


Again... if you have "too many does" 4:1 vs bucks or more..... someone killed the bucks. Y'all are talking about "I need to shoot these 30 does". That's more than a little out of whack.

Someone shot the bucks. That is the ONLY logical reason your ratio would be that messed up.

100% FACT.

What do y'all think happens... do you think does are just hatching up out of the mud?


Typically does produce roughly 1 to 1 ratio of bucks to does. Buck mortality is naturally higher. A "perfectly balance by nature" herd wouldn't be quite 1 to 1. It would be very very slightly doe heavy.

If you started the season with a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio, and shot 90% of your bucks and 0% of your does, after natural mortality and fawn recruitment factored in the following season, you'd have probably a better doe to buck ratio (like 3 to 1) to start the season. It's near biological impossibility to have worse than a 5 to 1 doe to buck ratio to start your season. The best management will never get you to a true 1 to 1, but with good management you can have less than 2 to 1 ratio. Even with poor management you'll float around 3 or 4 to 1.



BS!!! Did you just make that up?? 5:1 ratio. Shoot 90% bucks and no does and the results is less does at a 3:1 ratio. Think about what you just said.


I did not say less does anywhere in that quote. That said some will die from various causes. Deer breed. https://www.qdma.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/

Last edited by 280REM; 03/06/20 05:53 PM.
Re: Killing does [Re: CAL] #3060199
03/06/20 06:11 PM
03/06/20 06:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
280REM Offline
3 point
280REM  Offline
3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
If you think about it, that’s an article that in some ways support that killing does willy nilly isn’t the most sound management practice. You can have and see a lot of deer if you let does walk. Obviously every proper and herd is different.

Re: Killing does [Re: CAL] #3060209
03/06/20 06:23 PM
03/06/20 06:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
central ala,
C
centralala Offline
14 point
centralala  Offline
14 point
C
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
central ala,
You said you would go from 5:1 to 3:1 by killing 90% of the bucks. So, if you have 100 does and 20 bucks and kill 18 of those bucks, the next season starts at 100:2 or 50:1. Of course you know by that article and it you read Dr. James Kroll the concern in the sex ratios is breeding and fawns aren't counted. And 3:1 ratio is a good, realistic goal for the serious hunters.

Re: Killing does [Re: centralala] #3060234
03/06/20 06:42 PM
03/06/20 06:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 639
Smuteye
O
Orion34 Offline
4 point
Orion34  Offline
4 point
O
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 639
Smuteye
He ain’t far off if we’re talking boys to girls and not antlered bucks to does. Gotta keep in mind there was a year’s worth of fawns on the ground (1:1 boys to girls) and will be more on the way the following year. Those will be hatched 1:1. Reality is it’s hard to drive the ratios much past 5:1; impossible really if you’re shooting branch antlered deer. Nothing is 100% but he’s close, I think.

Re: Killing does [Re: CAL] #3060248
03/06/20 06:56 PM
03/06/20 06:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
central ala,
C
centralala Offline
14 point
centralala  Offline
14 point
C
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
central ala,
He's quoting Kip Adams. He just left off the part where Kip assumed 20% natural mortality of does. No does killed by hunters.

Re: Killing does [Re: centralala] #3060399
03/06/20 09:33 PM
03/06/20 09:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
280REM Offline
3 point
280REM  Offline
3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
Originally Posted by centralala
He's quoting Kip Adams. He just left off the part where Kip assumed 20% natural mortality of does. No does killed by hunters.

The article explains the math and numbers used to arrive at the final numbers. It’s pretty simple. Deer breed. Pretty prolifically too. Humans can help manage for better herds but even poorly managed the deer work things out pretty well by nature.

Re: Killing does [Re: centralala] #3060415
03/06/20 09:41 PM
03/06/20 09:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
280REM Offline
3 point
280REM  Offline
3 point
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 184
Pelham, Alabama
Originally Posted by centralala
You said you would go from 5:1 to 3:1 by killing 90% of the bucks. So, if you have 100 does and 20 bucks and kill 18 of those bucks, the next season starts at 100:2 or 50:1.

You’re forgetting the fawns that were on the ground to start the season not counted in those numbers.

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