Anyone out there gone for broke and done all plots, regardless if difference in soil types, years of T&M practice ,etc. just to see the results? I understand the seed bed ( layering of material) would take time. It may not be T&M in the truest form, but we are thinking of this version /"poor man's" T&M and being very specific about fertilizer type/rates to see if it works. Just curious if anyone has tried this yet.

Did mine at the lease this year and they did ok for as little thatch as I had in some. I’ll continue doing it now that I stopped this time. My plots at the house have been strictly T&M for 4-5 years now.

Explain a little more about what you mean by doing a poor mans version....Heck I thought T&M was already the poor mans way ....Also when you say very specific fert rates are you talking about testing every field and applying according to the test?

If you have time one day and want to do it since I'm so close by....we can ride around and look at some your fields and I'll help you with any advice I might could give.

I planted plots in 6 different counties last year all using T&M. So all different soil types. All of them turned out good. Some better than others. I planted a bunch of crimson clover and it looks really good. And I didnt spray at all. Just spread seed and fert and bushhog

I'm likely not telling you anything you don't already know but..... let that crimson go to seed and the seed tops turn brown before you do anything and you'll have it come back free next year.....I was hesitant to completely rely on it without reseeding but I did it one year just to see and I had clover just as thick the following fall. I think the only thing that might mess that up is if you have a lot thatch and surface residue that smothers out the soil surface when the seedling are trying to come up in Oct.....I've got crimson clover over a foot deep in my yard right now where I sowed some for erosion control. The deer can't get to it so it hasn't been browsed. On the other side of the fence where they have been able to get to it its only 1-2 inches deep.

I'm gonna go ahead and post this before it slips my mind...…...One of the best things you can probably do to help you get started next fall is to hit your fields with some nitrogen this summer and insure that that put out plenty of summer growth....that way you'll have adequate thatch when you go to plant. That'll make a big difference on your first run. Many fields that have been plowed for a long time struggle at first because the summer growth is so thin and short

Thanks All!
CNC, we probably have two to three distinct soil types over the acreage. We can re-test and use different fertilizer mixtures by soil type. And by "poor man's" I might should have said "lazy and impatient". And like your ideas on clover. May get you to ride down with me sometime.

In any event all this was helpful.

One thing that will hold true across all those soil types is that you’ll want to build organic matter to see the true potential of them. I have crimson clover growing in some clay that’s doing outstanding due the small layer of black across the top of that red dirt. The new area I cleared to extend my clover I scraped the top off with my bucket and you can see I noticeable difference in the two areas. So keep that in mind if things don’t look immaculate in the beginning. It takes getting some black dirt built on those plowed fields before this benefits of this will be seen.

Also with fertilizer…….I would recommend reading a little more into the soil’s ability to hold each one….which one is more likely to leach…..which one is likely to hold longer than the others…..and how that changes with soil types. Fertilizing for winter grain plots is really gonna be something that you can eventually just have a feel for as you watch soil tests over a few year period and see how much things drop or hold between plantings…..P will end up being something you rarely add……K will just be bumped up from time to time…..and N with be something you use your eyeballs to guage…..eventually you’ll quit using N altogether or that’s hopefully where its all headed. Ill tell you how it works out soon. I added it at planting this last year and that was it….I think next year I’m gonna take the leap to fert free……Once you build up your OM some then getting some lime on them and raising Ca levels will help the fields a lot.

If you get time take some pics of what some of the plots look like as the cereal grains bolt and what the soil surface looks like. It helps a lot in helping with what someone may need to do to have success with this in the beginning. The growth of your cereal grains as they bolt will tell you a lot about the current productivity of the fields as long as browsing pressure isn't having a heavy influence. If you don't produce decent seed heads in the end then you've likely got some work to do

CNC or anyone else. Have yall done t and m with browntop millet? I do a couple of dove fields every year and would like to not have to disc. thanks

Yes....there's been a number of folks try millet and does just fine with it having a small seed. As with any of this a lot of your results are just gonna depend on the conditions you're starting with. Its might not be a pristine planting but I think you'll find that in a lot of cases with wildlife that works to our benefit. They tend to like a little diversity where as humans want to see a nice, neat pure stand. I wouldn't sweat a little of this or that growing amongst just as long as you produce a decent enough stand to have a few good hunts or whatever goal you're shooting for, If you have good conditions though you will likely get good stand going with millet....its about like cereal rye

CNC, we've got several plots on our lease that are mostly sand. It appears our fertilizer leaches out of them quickly and by mid December we have to hit them with N again.
If we switch to T&M should we wait till we start seeing them green up before we hit them with fertilizers? We typically hold off till we get rain whether it's October or November before we plant.

Also, should we go to T&M, would we benefit by running over the fields with the cultipacker to help the seed get contact with the soil?

So that I'm clear on what you're asking.....when exactly are you talking about adding fertilizer....this spring??

On the cultipacker question.....I've never used one but I know some others have. If you have access to one then it would probably be a good idea to go ahead and use it on your first run or two until you get some organic matter built up in the soil and then you can test to see if you get the same result by letting that step go. You're more likely to get those same results though when the conditions of the field are changed and improved. The first couple runs are typically where you're most likely to have issues if they're gonna happen.

Millet is one of the easiest seeds to throw and mow.

No sir, I'm concerned with how fast the fertilizer leaches out of the sand.

Thanks for the tip on the millet, I'll give it a try.

Stickers, I've been planting 2 different properties for the last 5 years using this method, maybe longer. One property was mountain sandy soil that was tannish white and would run thru your fingers. In about 3 years, I had it black and I could squeeze it together into a clod. It's truly amazing how it works.

Ok I gotcha now.....

So generally speaking....smaller more frequent applications will do better in sandy soil....especially in the beginning of this process. Now, it''ll just depend on your situation as to how much is feasible this is to do. Being here at my house I can pretty much do whatever I need to without an issue. But if you have a hunting club that's a good ways home and something to spread the fert with is only available for a weekend here or there then you may not be able to do the same thing. It may not be feasible to add N once a month or whatever. Also, the different nutrients are gonna leach at different rates with N likely being the quickest to be gone.....P usually holds fairly well and K having a slow fall to it. So it may be that you add your P&K once at planting and then add several small does of N spread out every few weeks or whatever you're able to do. I would for sure add one dose at planting which some folks wait to do. Your plot will get off to a better start though if those seedling don't emerge in a N deficient situation. Your thatch that you put on the gorund is gonna start to tie up some N as well in the decomposition process so you need some in there at planting time.

The decomposed organic matter.....the black dirt.....is where your eventually gonna get way more holding capacity from for these nutrients to stay available longer. It will also have sort of like a reserve of organic nitrogen that's in the black dirt that will be available to the plants. So over time things will improve and your the frequency and amount of fert you need to add should lessen. Eventually you should be able to cut way back and the idea is that at some point your microbial community mineralizing the nutrients already in the ground along with plant selection is suppose to allow you to go fert free. I'm just not getting to where I feel like I'm ready to take the leap. I'll never know if I don't try

Thanks Blumsden- with what CNC, you and others have shared I think we are on the right track!