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Re: CWD [Re: Rutabaga] #3022673
01/24/20 10:04 PM
01/24/20 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga
Originally Posted by Swampdrummin
Originally Posted by JMW
I'm actually amazed it hasn't shown in cows or pigs yet. I'm just saying that at this time one is more likely to get food poisoning from eating deer meat th were an CWD. If deer are tested negative (which I'm sure isn't 100% accurate) I think the fear of eating venison is ungrounded compared to the other relative risks one assumes to get said venison. I personally won't eat any deer that hasn't been tested.

If and when it does jump to beef, we'l see research and breakthroughs immediately....



Pigs can get it. Why that isn’t bigger news is because the study that discovered this did not let the disease “run its course”. Rather, they slaughtered all the pigs before they went clinical.

As far as accuracy, prion diseases start with a single warped prion that turns into, let’s say, a billion warped prions. The only way for a deer to test “ positive” is for enough prions to be present so that they can reliably be observed. For the first 3-4 months a deer has the disease, it will test “not positive” because the level is somewhere on the low end of one to a billion. It’s kinda like finding a needle in a haystack that first 3-4 months. Nevertheless, if you eat the haystack, you’re gonna eat the needle. No test will ever be able to rule out CWD because every single prion protein in the deer would need to be inspected.

Thus if you are afraid to eat a deer that tests positive, you should also be afraid to eat the negative ones in an area where the disease is prevalent. That’s because roughly 1-4 or 1-5 will have it but test “not positive”. Think about it this way, if your hunting camp kills 20 deer in an area like the outbreak in Tennessee that has a 25 percent infection rate and everyone just eats deer that that test “not positive” then one of you is still probably eating a CWD positive deer that season.. This deer contains infectious proteins that have been shown to kill macaque monkeys and spider monkeys over an extended incubation relative to their lifespans. Those infections proteins have also shown the ability to mutate into different strains that infect species previously immune.

Humans are eating a lot of deer with CWD across the country. Each and every consumption is a new experiment. One researcher called the continued consumption of deer in CWD areas the largest human experiment of all time.

Question, do you eat vinison? Have you ever eaten vinison and if you have stopped eating vinison is it because of CWD?


I used to eat a lot of venison. You could copy Fred’s answer for mine with the exception that yes I have stopped eating deer from areas with CWD or areas close to CWD. Knowing everything I do about CWD and the mechanisms of prion disease, I cannot rightfully continue to eat venison from such areas and expose my children to it. CWD is not a conspiracy. It is a true-to-life disease straight from the pages of a science fiction horror film.

Again, prion diseases are caused by infectious mammal PROTEINS - the very building blocks of our bodies.. Normally, prion diseases are one in a million mutations that are diseases of a single person. These do not have the opportunity to change and evolve because they die with the person. Kuru - the most famous human prion disease - was snuffed out of existence when the natives found out about the disease and stopped eating each other’s brains.

CWD on the other hand is different. It is contagious between at least a dozen known mammal species including the only two primate species that have been tested. In deer it’s contagious with simple contact not brain consumption. Because it’s contagious it has the ability to mutate and change overtime. It can also move through one species to kill another species it couldn’t before. For example, hamsters could not originally get CWD from a deer but they can get it if it passes through a ferret first. So maybe humans can’t catch CWD from deer. But pigs can. This changes the game because maybe humans can get it from a pig that got it from a deer. Repeat this for all the mammals we hunt. Maybe humans can get it from a rabbit that got it from a deer. Maybe humans can get it from a pig that got it from a coyote that got it from a deer. Hell, maybe humans can it from a deer that got it from a pig that got it from a deer. The possibilities are limited by your imagination.

Prion diseases also kill quicker the more times they pass through a species. In other words, the incubation period shortens the longer the disease is around. The fact that CWD is going to eventually be in millions of deer - and thus have millions of times to evolve and mutate - should concern every person that eats meat. This is a disease that changes and kills mammal species based on our very protein structures. Not fish. Not reptiles. Not bugs. Not birds. Mammals.






Last edited by Swampdrummin; 01/24/20 10:04 PM.

Quack quack.
Re: CWD [Re: ] #3022691
01/24/20 10:30 PM
01/24/20 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sgtred
Mr. Brock, Wisconsin has had it longer if I am not mistaken. If I remember correctly Wisconsin started out with a very aggressive approach ,sent teams to try to eradicate the deer in positive areas . I appreciate you answering ,but I was asking for Troy's opinion. Not that yours doesn't count. I know Troy and was curious about his thoughts on it. .


It was first discovered in Wisconsin in the fall of 2001 very near the Illinois line. It was then discovered in Illinois in the fall of 2002 very near the Wisconsin line. The two states would probably dispute where it actually started but the point is probably moot. It started close enough to the line such that the two states present a very interesting case study in disease management. Wisconsin did start out with very aggressive management plan. It was very unpopular and they abandoned it in favor of no disease management. Illinois started off with and has continued with a very aggressive management plan including using sharpshooters in known 640 acre sections. It was and still is very unpopular but people have accepted it. In the roughly 20 years since it was discovered on the line, the disease has traveled like a wildfire through Wisconsin. It has saturated counties, has high prevalence rates, and a farther geographic reach. In Illinois it’s the difference between night and day. Low prevalence rates, low county saturation and lower geographic reach.


Quack quack.
Re: CWD [Re: Rutabaga] #3022700
01/24/20 10:41 PM
01/24/20 10:41 PM

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Thank you sir. I don't know if you are or aren't an employee of W,F.F, but that is a DCNR talking point, I am not saying it is not a valid point in any way. But l am looking for a different perspective. That is the DCNR point given to support the current response plan. Its not that I think Illinois or Alabama copying Illinois is a bad idea, just exploring what and if there are alternatives,that might prove to be even more effective.

Last edited by sgtred; 01/24/20 10:51 PM.
Re: CWD [Re: Rutabaga] #3022709
01/24/20 10:55 PM
01/24/20 10:55 PM

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For example, I have heard that since CWD infected deer tend to wander like an Alzymers patient,and go much further than their normal range, that not banning feeding may keep them closer to where they were infected, thus hypotheticaly, not spreading the disease across a larger geographic area as fast

Re: CWD [Re: ] #3022714
01/24/20 11:00 PM
01/24/20 11:00 PM
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Right behind you
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Originally Posted by sgtred
Thank you sir. I don't know if you are or aren't an employee of W,F.F, but that is a DCNR talking point, I am not saying it is not a valid point in any way. But l am looking for a different perspective. That is the DCNR point given to support the current response plan. Its not that I think Illinois or Alabama copying Illinois is a bad idea, just exploring what and if there are alternatives,that might prove to be even more effective.

I’m not trying to support anyone’s response plan. I’m stating facts from what’s nearly been two decades of data collection. I have sat through presentations given by these states on their responses and there is no agenda.

Re: CWD [Re: Rutabaga] #3022719
01/24/20 11:04 PM
01/24/20 11:04 PM

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Im sure Illinois has probably employed other measures other than just shooting deer to isolate the disease in areas it is found. May turn out to be the only way, don't know.

Last edited by sgtred; 01/24/20 11:04 PM.
Re: CWD [Re: ] #3022721
01/24/20 11:07 PM
01/24/20 11:07 PM
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Swampdrummin Offline
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Originally Posted by sgtred
Than you sir. I don't know if you are or aren't an employee of W,F.F, but that is a DCNR talking point, I am not saying it is not a valid point in any way. But l am looking for a different perspective. That is the DCNR point given to support the current response plan


Self-employed attorney and no affiliation with any game agency. I used to live and hunt in Illinois somewhat close to the disease. I’ve followed it there for about a decade.


My wife is a neurologist and was concerned about CWD before me. She sees the human version of CJD - a disease that slowly destroys everything that makes you a human being. Believe me, I looked at every angle to convince her it was overblown. It took a while for me to let go of my feeling that it just had to be overblown. Funny thing emotions are. The bigger a hunter you are the more you don’t want to accept the facts. If you gave me a button to push to give me back my ignorance, I’d be tempted to hit it.


Quack quack.
Re: CWD [Re: Mbrock] #3022734
01/24/20 11:14 PM
01/24/20 11:14 PM
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Posts: 5,121
Georgia and Missouri
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Originally Posted by Mbrock
Originally Posted by sgtred
Thank you sir. I don't know if you are or aren't an employee of W,F.F, but that is a DCNR talking point, I am not saying it is not a valid point in any way. But l am looking for a different perspective. That is the DCNR point given to support the current response plan. Its not that I think Illinois or Alabama copying Illinois is a bad idea, just exploring what and if there are alternatives,that might prove to be even more effective.

I’m not trying to support anyone’s response plan. I’m stating facts from what’s nearly been two decades of data collection. I have sat through presentations given by these states on their responses and there is no agenda.


Not trying to be argumentative, but those presentations can themselves be biased. How data is expressed, based on agency goals can sometimes lead to poor decision making. I was in a meeting today concerning presentations and how agency goals were possibly skewing the recommendations.

While I'm not saying there is ANY evidence of that in cwd studies (and to a man agency employees are doing what they think is right) there is some public skepticism that comes with info originating from State and federal agencies (right or wrong). Many times that skepticism leads to less public support for management recommendations, but it seems the "managers" many times bristle to that rather than embracing the underlying distrust. ( not saying that has anything to do with your posts but rather a general perception that agencies)

Re: CWD [Re: Mbrock] #3022735
01/24/20 11:15 PM
01/24/20 11:15 PM

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No one has accused you of that Mr. Brock. Nor am I accusing you or anyone else of any agenda. I'm pretty sure I thanked you. i can only guess that you are taking humbridge with my statement about talking points.. That is the most often cited example. I went on to say I didn't think it was bad etc. So exactly what is it you are unhappy about

Re: CWD [Re: Swampdrummin] #3022741
01/24/20 11:20 PM
01/24/20 11:20 PM

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sgtred
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Originally Posted by Swampdrummin

Originally Posted by sgtred
Than you sir. I don't know if you are or aren't an employee of W,F.F, but that is a DCNR talking point, I am not saying it is not a valid point in any way. But l am looking for a different perspective. That is the DCNR point given to support the current response plan


Self-employed attorney and no affiliation with any game agency. I used to live and hunt in Illinois somewhat close to the disease. I’ve followed it there for about a decade.


My wife is a neurologist and was concerned about CWD before me. She sees the human version of CJD - a disease that slowly destroys everything that makes you a human being. Believe me, I looked at every angle to convince her it was overblown. It took a while for me to let go of my feeling that it just had to be overblown. Funny thing emotions are. The bigger a hunter you are the more you don’t want to accept the facts. If you gave me a button to push to give me back my ignorance, I’d be tempted to hit it.
Thank you sir, I am aware of the danger's CWD poses, not one that denys it. What to do about it ,is what I am inquiring about.

Re: CWD [Re: ] #3022754
01/24/20 11:40 PM
01/24/20 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sgtred
For example, I have heard that since CWD infected deer tend to wander like an Alzymers patient,and go much further than their normal range, that not banning feeding may keep them closer to where they were infected, thus hypotheticaly, not spreading the disease across a larger geographic area as fast

Originally Posted by sgtred
Im sure Illinois has probably employed other measures other than just shooting deer to isolate the disease in areas it is found. May turn out to be the only way, don't know.


Illinois increases doe season in the infected counties to reduce the deer population generally in those counties. So step one, it decreases the population in roughly a 700 square mile area surrounding the disease. Step 2 Illinois aggressively targets specific sections of land where the disease is detected. When I say section I am referring to the plat map terminology, being 640 acres or a single square mile, which is how all counties map out their land. Here they often deploy sharpshooters to drastically reduce the population in that 1 section out of 700. Step 3 is banning transportation of carcasses out of these areas. This general and surgical approach has been very successful.

The Achilles heel to the Illinois approach is yearling buck dispersal.. Yearling bucks will disperse 10-20 miles in farm country, maybe 30.. This results in “sparks” where the disease sparks from one controlled area, let’s say an infected 640 acre section, to another area. So now you have 2 sections out of 700 to sharpshoot and they are 20 miles apart. While the surgical approach has been very successful at containing fires as they appear, the sparks from the yearling dispersal can be reduced but not eliminated unless you just kill all the deer in infected areas. Eventually it will reach the point where, not unlike a wildfire, certain areas will need to be abandoned and a new “firebreak” established. There will invariably be sparks and a new firebreak will need to be established and so on and so forth. Absent a cure, it’s all about buying time and killing deer, especially where the disease is located, is the only viable way to buy time. Illinois has bought itself decades compared to Wisconsin with its approach. This is not a point of view or a talking point. It is cold hard scientific fact supported by the real life evidence of two different approaches

For what it’s worth, Illinois also bans feeding in the whole state while Wisconsin allows feeding and only bans it an area once the disease is located within 10 miles. A widespread baiting culture, and the resulting congregations of deer, may very well help account for why the wisconsin counties are so densely infected with the disease. When baiting is so common place, an infected deer is a new area is sure to come into very close proximity with most of the deer in its home range. As for the argument that baiting would keep Alzheimer’s deer from roaming... ...isn’t that kind of self defeating? Even if it isn’t, Deer at the “Alzheimer’s stage” may spread the disease further but if it does so, it does so at a walking pace that is stopped by the first coyote it comes across. The bigger threat posed by feeding is congregating other deer in the home range. I.e. the same area, that the infected animal spends 99% of its time. The 1 percent exposure from rutting when he is rutting or a walking zombie is negligible in comparison.


Last edited by Swampdrummin; 01/25/20 12:13 AM.

Quack quack.
Re: CWD [Re: Rutabaga] #3022760
01/25/20 12:22 AM
01/25/20 12:22 AM

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Thank you, maybe talking point was a poor choice of words because of the conatations that go with it. I am not attacking the methodology Illinois employs. I am certainly not advocating Wisconsin's approach. The corn speculation was not mine , it came from within, I Don't believe it was ever seriously considered,. Just thrown out there . As far as facts , Illinois methods are for a fact have proven to be better than Wisconsin's. I would even agree that at this time, it may be the best method.It is not yet a fact that Illinois method is the only viable option that will ever exist. I learned a long time ago to stay away from absolutes if possible. Alot of of solutions and inovations have come from the private sector. Being open minded ,and inclusive I believe will lead to a even better way to contain, etc the spread of CWD

Last edited by sgtred; 01/25/20 08:48 AM.
Re: CWD [Re: ] #3022866
01/25/20 08:57 AM
01/25/20 08:57 AM
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alabama
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Originally Posted by sgtred
Troy ,explain to me what knowing the prevalnce rate does, it certainly will not get rid of it, once you have ,you have it.


to me all it does is tell you how damn far behind we are. It is not going to do anything as far as fighting it longterm. Once it is ON the soil it is IN the soil for a unknown very long time and can infect new healthy deer down the road...so eradicating ALL the deer in an infected area will not do anything towards reintroducing healthy deer back into that area. They will still get it. This is a very bad disease for deer hunters and game agencies.


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: CWD [Re: BhamFred] #3022879
01/25/20 09:10 AM
01/25/20 09:10 AM
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Montgomery, Alabama
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Originally Posted by BhamFred
Originally Posted by sgtred
Troy ,explain to me what knowing the prevalnce rate does, it certainly will not get rid of it, once you have ,you have it.


to me all it does is tell you how damn far behind we are. It is not going to do anything as far as fighting it longterm. Once it is ON the soil it is IN the soil for a unknown very long time and can infect new healthy deer down the road...so eradicating ALL the deer in an infected area will not do anything towards reintroducing healthy deer back into that area. They will still get it. This is a very bad disease for deer hunters and game agencies.

Once it's in the ground, it is bad news.


It be's that way sometimes.

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Re: CWD [Re: Rutabaga] #3022882
01/25/20 09:14 AM
01/25/20 09:14 AM
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Montgomery, Alabama
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Also, if it's in the soil will other animals contract the disease? Lots of animals eat deer corn and graze on clover or beans.


It be's that way sometimes.

www.sunpoolcompany.com
Re: CWD [Re: BhamFred] #3023121
01/25/20 04:33 PM
01/25/20 04:33 PM

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Thanks Troy, that all makes sense. I feel like that if Agencies would be a little more open minded some better solutions might come forward. I saw some research from that lady from Colorado you mentioned where she found that certain elk with a rare DNA profile for that herd didn't get it or were very resistant to it.

Re: CWD [Re: Rutabaga] #3023133
01/25/20 04:47 PM
01/25/20 04:47 PM

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sgtred
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Thanks Troy, that all makes sense. I feel like that if Agencies would be a little more open minded some better solutions might come forward. I saw some research from that lady from Colorado you mentioned where she found that certain elk with a rare DNA profile for that herd didn't get it or were very resistant to it.

Re: CWD [Re: Rutabaga] #3023197
01/25/20 05:54 PM
01/25/20 05:54 PM
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alabama
BhamFred Offline
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I don't think axis deer get it.

and scrappie was bred out of existence here in the US. Deer breeders are looking at the same thing, selectively breed deer that are very resistant to CWD.


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: CWD [Re: BhamFred] #3023217
01/25/20 06:40 PM
01/25/20 06:40 PM
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Georgia and Missouri
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Originally Posted by BhamFred
I don't think axis deer get it.

and scrappie was bred out of existence here in the US. Deer breeders are looking at the same thing, selectively breed deer that are very resistant to CWD.


We will be dealing with this a long time without some breakthrough. That long incubation period will drag out the time frame for populations to increase genetic resistance.

Have heard that some are optimistic about the progress in ultimately curing the disease. Not that we are anywhere close, but just that if we can hold it back for another 20+ years there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

Amazing how fast we can alter genetics with animal husbandry....though maybe some transgenic methods might help in the wild population's cwd problem. (kind of scary to think about though)

Re: CWD [Re: BhamFred] #3023329
01/25/20 09:40 PM
01/25/20 09:40 PM

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Troy did you sit in on a presentation, sure you qualified to have any thoughts on the matter eek

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