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Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299167
03/08/12 09:01 AM
03/08/12 09:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,103
McCalla, Alabama
MarkBAMA Offline
12 point
MarkBAMA  Offline
12 point
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,103
McCalla, Alabama
Real hunters dont need BAIT period.

If you are putting out pellets, corn or whatever DURING hunting it should be considered BAIT not supplemental feed.

Feed all you want whle season is out. I dont have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is those with financial aspirations in teh hunting industry trying to dictate what the rest of the population should do in the name of wildlife conservation.


ROLL TIDE !!!

Enough Said....
Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299171
03/08/12 09:06 AM
03/08/12 09:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347
Prattville AL
E
ElkHunter Offline
Booner
ElkHunter  Offline
Booner
E
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347
Prattville AL
I spoke yesterday as well and I am against the bill. It is not supplemental feeding if you start/do it during hunting season only. It is baiting. Make it a year round requirement and then you may be able to claim that.

But, here is something that I find interesting. Under the bill, the ONLY animal that can be killed on property that is baiting is whitetail deer. So, if it passes "as is", forget yotes, hogs, coons, ducks, and any other game animal on your property. It will be illegal for you to hunt them. That is a big sacrifice.

Forget high fence. I don't care what you do in your fence. Bait if you like. If the bill wants to legalize it for high fences, go ahead.

For all else, here are some of the motivations.
Large properties that do honestly supplemental feed all during the year are doing so for two primary reasons. They want their deer to be big and healty and they want their deer to STAY on their property.

There is no doubt this is a really a baiting bill. If it were truely about supplemental feeding, it would require the participants to do it year round. If this passes, the "during deer season" supplemental feeders will increase probably 100 times. And they will just about all stop at the end of season, when the deer will really start needing it.


Alabama Hog Control, Inc.
www.alabamahogcontrol.com
Barry Estes

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299173
03/08/12 09:11 AM
03/08/12 09:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,896
AL
H
hunterbuck Offline
Booner
hunterbuck  Offline
Booner
H
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,896
AL
Would make more sense for high fence operations to push for a seperate set of laws instead of trying to push their agenda on the entire state...and having deep enough pockets to do it.


"You think I care? Roll Damn Tide"

Have you tried Google?
Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: ElkHunter] #299182
03/08/12 09:28 AM
03/08/12 09:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,264
Jay,Fl / Gulf Breeze
04 Spoiler Offline
14 point
04 Spoiler  Offline
14 point
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,264
Jay,Fl / Gulf Breeze
Originally Posted By: ElkHunter
I spoke yesterday as well and I am against the bill. It is not supplemental feeding if you start/do it during hunting season only. It is baiting. Make it a year round requirement and then you may be able to claim that.

But, here is something that I find interesting. Under the bill, the ONLY animal that can be killed on property that is baiting is whitetail deer. So, if it passes "as is", forget yotes, hogs, coons, ducks, and any other game animal on your property. It will be illegal for you to hunt them. That is a big sacrifice.

Forget high fence. I don't care what you do in your fence. Bait if you like. If the bill wants to legalize it for high fences, go ahead.

For all else, here are some of the motivations.
Large properties that do honestly supplemental feed all during the year are doing so for two primary reasons. They want their deer to be big and healty and they want their deer to STAY on their property.

There is no doubt this is a really a baiting bill. If it were truely about supplemental feeding, it would require the participants to do it year round. If this passes, the "during deer season" supplemental feeders will increase probably 100 times. And they will just about all stop at the end of season, when the deer will really start needing it.


That is EXACTLY right... That is a no BS, no sugar coating real explanation of this bill...

Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299188
03/08/12 09:39 AM
03/08/12 09:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,181
Hartselle
longshot Offline
12 point
longshot  Offline
12 point
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,181
Hartselle
Originally Posted By: Dream Buck

Our family owns Dream Ranch. My dad Billy, myself, and my brother Austin.
Don't think we can give away any free hunts ha ha.


I just want to sit in a stand with my son and a camera. Doesnt even have to be during the season , just want to see some of the bucks that you have there in person


I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Some men are born brothers, Others earn it... JD
Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299191
03/08/12 09:42 AM
03/08/12 09:42 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline
Booner
49er  Offline
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
Originally Posted By: Dream Buck
I wanted to get everyone's feedback on SB 346. It passed committee today and i was fortunate enough to get to testify for the bill. If you are for it, let me know, we are compiling a list. I believe it is time to define area, the current law is to vague. This is not a baiting bill, its a common sense supplemental feeding bill to define area so managers of properties can know where to legally place supplemental feeders. Just one tool a manager can use. The yardage and line of sight was drafted from our neighboring states of Mississippi and Georgia.

Thanks,
Will Ainsworth


Why add to the confusion? That's what the bill does.
Repeal the baiting prohibitions completely and let the people decide for themselves whether they think baiting is ethical or not.


Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: longshot] #299193
03/08/12 09:42 AM
03/08/12 09:42 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,896
AL
H
hunterbuck Offline
Booner
hunterbuck  Offline
Booner
H
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,896
AL
Originally Posted By: longshot
Originally Posted By: Dream Buck

Our family owns Dream Ranch. My dad Billy, myself, and my brother Austin.
Don't think we can give away any free hunts ha ha.


I just want to sit in a stand with my son and a camera. Doesnt even have to be during the season , just want to see some of the bucks that you have there in person


You can...for a price. Not many "free rides" given out in these BUSINESSES.


"You think I care? Roll Damn Tide"

Have you tried Google?
Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: longshot] #299204
03/08/12 09:57 AM
03/08/12 09:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,148
J
jallencrockett Offline
8 point
jallencrockett  Offline
8 point
J
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,148
Will / Dream Buck

Can you please list my name as absolutely believig your bill is both illegal and immoral. That is my honest opinion.

As long as the head of the CAB is related to a feeder company then it is wrong for any legislation or CAB buisness to pass a new rule that increases FEEDER SALES.

AREA is defined in the dictionary it appears that your interest are just defining to define DISTANCE.

Was there a place on your petition where someone could sign their name against the defining of area?

Did you list on the petition that you were going to define distance(area) as 100 yards or were you just petitioning for a definition of area?

Where did you collect your signatures?

It seems a little self serving to have a petition secured inside a high fence or placed beside a pile of corn that is being sold during the season.

Thank you,
Allen Crockett

Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: jallencrockett] #299213
03/08/12 10:09 AM
03/08/12 10:09 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline
Booner
49er  Offline
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
Allen,
Quote:
As long as the head of the CAB is related to a feeder company then it is wrong for any legislation or CAB buisness to pass a new rule that increases FEEDER SALES.


SB346 is a proposed amendment to a law that the Legislature wrote.(Code of Alabama, 9-11-244) It's not a rule that the CAB wrote.

The CAB cannot amend a law. They could have defined the "affected area" for purposes of enforcing the law, but they tried and then refused to do that.

Dan Moultrie has no more authority over matters before the Legislature than you or I.

Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299217
03/08/12 10:14 AM
03/08/12 10:14 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,583
alabama
B
Blessed Online content
10 point
Blessed  Online Content
10 point
B
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,583
alabama
I know a guy that got busted hunting over corn he asked the Warden to define the area where the corn was and so he called Montgomery before writing this guy a ticket and Montgomery told the Warden anything within a square mile.

Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Blessed] #299223
03/08/12 10:20 AM
03/08/12 10:20 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 63,663
Luverne, AL
Skinny Offline
GUVNER
Skinny  Offline
GUVNER
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 63,663
Luverne, AL
Originally Posted By: Blessed
I know a guy that got busted hunting over corn he asked the Warden to define the area where the corn was and so he called Montgomery before writing this guy a ticket and Montgomery told the Warden anything within a square mile.


And if that is true, it is crap. That is why "area" needs to be explicitly defined.


Never Trust Government

"You can be broke but you cant be poor." Ruthie-May Webster
Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299238
03/08/12 10:43 AM
03/08/12 10:43 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,583
alabama
B
Blessed Online content
10 point
Blessed  Online Content
10 point
B
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,583
alabama
When he was caught he was no where close to the corn but the Warden walked him to where the corn was piled up and the guy tried to get out of it but he didnt and the guy told us that
he did pile the corn up but he just wanted them to define hunting over bait and thats when Montgomery said anything within a square mile .

Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: ElkHunter] #299245
03/08/12 10:55 AM
03/08/12 10:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,166
Florence, Al
A
AlabamaSwamper Offline
10 point
AlabamaSwamper  Offline
10 point
A
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,166
Florence, Al
Originally Posted By: ElkHunter
I spoke yesterday as well and I am against the bill. It is not supplemental feeding if you start/do it during hunting season only. It is baiting. Make it a year round requirement and then you may be able to claim that.

But, here is something that I find interesting. Under the bill, the ONLY animal that can be killed on property that is baiting is whitetail deer. So, if it passes "as is", forget yotes, hogs, coons, ducks, and any other game animal on your property. It will be illegal for you to hunt them. That is a big sacrifice.

Forget high fence. I don't care what you do in your fence. Bait if you like. If the bill wants to legalize it for high fences, go ahead.

For all else, here are some of the motivations.
Large properties that do honestly supplemental feed all during the year are doing so for two primary reasons. They want their deer to be big and healty and they want their deer to STAY on their property.

There is no doubt this is a really a baiting bill. If it were truely about supplemental feeding, it would require the participants to do it year round. If this passes, the "during deer season" supplemental feeders will increase probably 100 times. And they will just about all stop at the end of season, when the deer will really start needing it.


thumbup

Hate to say it but the majority is against it because we all see right through the bull. Baiting plain and simple.

No doubt area needs to be defined. Like, anywhere on the property you are hunting. That'll fix that problem.


BTR Scorer in NW Alabama

Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299247
03/08/12 10:58 AM
03/08/12 10:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 86
Guntersville
D
Dream Buck Offline OP
spike
Dream Buck  Offline OP
spike
D
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 86
Guntersville
Barry,
I appreciate and agree with your position on most issues but this isn't a high fence or large land issue. This is a "horrible law" that is not clear that put honest hunters in jeopardy if they want to supplemental feed during hunting season. The problem is their are many people from all different walks of the hunting community that believe it is past time "area" needs to be defined, they have had it with a game warden or Montgomery or a judge trying to interpret the law for them. The law needs to be common sense and needs to define area, that is what SB 346 is about. This is a supplemental feeding bill. IF you can't shoot over it, it's not bait in my opinion. As far as the year round requirement is concerned there is no reason to go there. You can already supplemental feed outside of hunting season. Its the "area" issue during hunting season that is the problem.
As far as anyone wanting to take tour of Dream Ranch or coming and seeing deer, we give 100's of free tours a year and welcome visitors.
I don't really see where the CAB or Dan Moultrie applies to this in response to Mr. Crockett comments.
The example by Blessed is another reason this issue has gotten so cloudy, and their is a lot of support for this bill.

Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299262
03/08/12 11:25 AM
03/08/12 11:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,166
Florence, Al
A
AlabamaSwamper Offline
10 point
AlabamaSwamper  Offline
10 point
A
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,166
Florence, Al
They could use Tennessee's model and it would be ok with most folks I think.

250 yard radius
out of sight
Deer must also be 250 yards from bait.

Today's GPS systems can get within feet or less so it wouldn't be hard to determine.

Of course, on my place in Tennessee, 250 yard radius pretty much means we can't do it anywhere on our farm or lease because that is a lot of acres we'd lose. Then again, we can't afford to do it anyway and really don't need it.

The 250 yard "rule" is still baiting in my book but 100 yards and around the corner/ behind some trees, ect, is definately baiting and that is what 99% of the hunters will use it for.

That is where the the problem lies. Most hunters/clubs won't use this to "supplemental feed" and everyone knows it. 99% of the hunters can't afford to feed the right feed (if you intend on doing any good with it) in the amounts that do anything positive and corn isn't going to do the deer one bit of good. If you have so many deer that the natural browse is gone (not even including any plots) it would cost $1000's to do any good.

I've been to ranches that supplemental feed in other states. Most said the costs outweigh the results. One spent $60,000 the year I hunted there in protein pellets.


Last edited by AlabamaSwamper; 03/08/12 11:31 AM.

BTR Scorer in NW Alabama

Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: AlabamaSwamper] #299263
03/08/12 11:27 AM
03/08/12 11:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,948
Round ‘bout there
C
Clem Offline
Mildly Quirky
Clem  Offline
Mildly Quirky
C
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,948
Round ‘bout there
Quote:
Most hunters/clubs won't use this to "supplemental feed" and everyone knows it.


thumbup


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

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Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299298
03/08/12 12:10 PM
03/08/12 12:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 63,663
Luverne, AL
Skinny Offline
GUVNER
Skinny  Offline
GUVNER
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 63,663
Luverne, AL
Like I said in previous posts, The CAB could solve this problem on Saturday by defining "area" explicitly. It wouldnt even require the rule they self imposed about bringing a motion up and then waiting till the next meeting to vote on it because it is a modification to an existing regulation.


Never Trust Government

"You can be broke but you cant be poor." Ruthie-May Webster
Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Skinny] #299311
03/08/12 12:31 PM
03/08/12 12:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline
Booner
49er  Offline
Booner
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
Originally Posted By: Skinny
Originally Posted By: Blessed
I know a guy that got busted hunting over corn he asked the Warden to define the area where the corn was and so he called Montgomery before writing this guy a ticket and Montgomery told the Warden anything within a square mile.


And if that is true, it is crap. That is why "area" needs to be explicitly defined.


Exactly right Skinny.



Here's how the principle is stated:

Quote:
The United States Supreme Court has stated the following about the void for vagueness challenge:

"It is a basic principle of due process that an enactment is void for vagueness if its prohibitions are not clearly defined. Vague laws offend several important values. First, because we assume that man is free to steer between lawful and unlawful conduct, we insist that laws give the person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable opportunity to know what is prohibited, so that he may act accordingly. Vague laws may trap the innocent by not providing fair warning. Second, if arbitrary and discriminatory enforcement is to be prevented, laws must provide explicit standards for those who apply them. A vague law impermissibly delegates basic policy matters to policemen, judges, and juries for resolution on an ad hoc and subjective basis, with the attendant dangers of arbitrary and discriminatory application. Third, but related, where a vague statute `abut[s] upon sensitive areas of basic First Amendment freedoms,' it `operates to inhibit the exercise of [those] freedoms.' Uncertain meanings inevitably lead citizens to `"steer far wider of the unlawful zone" ... than if the boundaries of the forbidden areas where clearly marked.'"

Grayned v. City of Rockford, 408 U.S. 104, 108-09, 92 S.Ct. 2294, 2298-99, 33 L.Ed.2d 222 (1972), quoting, in part, Baggett v. Bullitt, 377 U.S. 360, 372, 84 S.Ct. 1316, 1323, 12 L.Ed.2d 377 (1964). See also United States v. Harriss, 347 U.S. 612, 617-18, 74 S.Ct. 808, 812, 98 L.Ed. 989 (1954). To withstand a challenge of vagueness, a statute must: 1) give a person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable opportunity to know what is prohibited, and, 2) provide explicit standards to those who apply the laws. Grayned.
(emphasis added)
Culbreath v. State, 667 So. 2d 156 - Ala: Court of Criminal Appeals 1995

Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299315
03/08/12 12:37 PM
03/08/12 12:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,896
AL
H
hunterbuck Offline
Booner
hunterbuck  Offline
Booner
H
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 13,896
AL
Just because you can't see a feeder because it's sitting behind a bush, doesn't mean you're not hunting over bait. And let's be honest, that's what this bill would result in the way it's written...some creative feeder placement where one could still see all approaches to the bait. That is baiting, plain and simple.

Agree that it won't be used as "supplemental feeding" except by a very few...myself included.


"You think I care? Roll Damn Tide"

Have you tried Google?
Re: SB 346 passed committee [Re: Dream Buck] #299318
03/08/12 12:40 PM
03/08/12 12:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 63,663
Luverne, AL
Skinny Offline
GUVNER
Skinny  Offline
GUVNER
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 63,663
Luverne, AL
What if your neighbor has a feeder on the property line and you dont know about it?

Last edited by Skinny; 03/08/12 12:41 PM.

Never Trust Government

"You can be broke but you cant be poor." Ruthie-May Webster
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