Is a 5yo+ whitetail buck smarter than a 5yo+ doe? Or vice versa. (During the rut not included)

If so why?
If not why not?

I have my own opinion I just want to hear y’all’s.

I’ve killed a bunch more 5yo does than 5yo bucks. Seen a lot more too. My vote is buck smarter

5+ year old bucks. I've seen fewer 5+ older bucks in daylight than I have 5+ older does.

Genuine question of my own....does seeing more 5+ does in daylight mean the bucks are actually smarter....or they just don't walk around in daylight as much?

Absolutely not. There’s more 5+ year old does in the population on most properties simply as a result of harvest strategies by hunters. VERY few bucks live to be 5+ due to hunting related and natural mortality. 5 year old bucks are no harder to kill than 5 year old does. They just simply don’t exist in a lot of places.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

I don’t know if you want to call it smarter or more wary or what but there is some difference in them. I’ve got old does that will walk out into my fields during the daylight with no issues….but those old bucks won’t….What’s even more interesting is that I’ve sat out here and watched a lot of deer activity in a clover plot I have that’s lit of by a street light. Those old bucks don’t even want to come out of the cover into the street light they’re so wary. During the rut when young bucks come through and start messing with the does the old bucks will start snort wheezing and pitching a fit breaking dog fennel bushes and saplings….but they don’t want to come out of that cover into that light for chit. These are probably 5-8 year old bucks we’re talking about.

….and no I don’t shoot anything in the street light….i don’t care about killing them that much anymore….it’s just fun to watch.

I can’t answer the original question with certainty, but my years of bow hunting have proved to me that the hardest deer to kill in January for us with a bow is a mature doe. The bucks are distracted with thoughts of other things, so if you limit your question to just the rut, then certainly the doe is more wary. The rest of the season, for whatever innate reason, the buck certainly would appear to be more wary.

Also, I think there is the maternal instinct factor also. A mature doe tends to be leading a group, many if not all are her family. I think for that reason, they are extra cautious. I truly believe the motherhood instinct is strong not only in humans but in the animal world also.

They're the same in my opinion. Most of the does we kill are similar to the bucks, young ones.

This has been my experience exactly, I've even noticed a similar street light situation with the same results. I dont know if it's being more wary or smarter either. Smarter is the question, but I dont know. I have to agree with Matt about the 5 year old bucks just not existing in many places. People shoot everything that moves these days, especially on public land.

I would say it's possible an old buck and old doe can be of the same intelligence l, but behave differently, just like human men and women (i.e. bucks more wary than does or visa versa). That's why I dont know if it's being smarter or more wary or just having different characteristics due to their sex.

Heres a story for you that's relevant. I watched a documentary about a man who dedicated a large part of his life to study and live amongst a mule deer herd. He moved to a cabin out in the middle of nowhere where this herd lived most of the year. They had a different winter range, but he was around them most of the year. He always tried to have contact with them every day that he could no matter what. The heard consisted of all ages of deer, both bucks and does. As the months went by, they began to let him get closer and closer.

After over 2 years, the matriarch/oldest doe, came up to him and let him pet her. After that very moment, the other does, which were younger would let him pet them, and they accepted him into the herd. They eventually would even lead him to their fawns right after they were born.

Through all that, not once did I see him ever get to touch a buck. They always kept their distance. So did the bucks keep their distance because they were smarter than the does? Or because they were more wary or cautious by nature? The oldest doe was able to figure out that he wasnt a threat, so does that make her smarter than the old bucks? I tend to believe old does and old bucks behave differently, because it's their nature (like the old the scorpion and frog tale).

Also one thing to consider is that deer are individuals like humans, and some 5 or old bucks may be smarter or more wary than other 5 year old bucks, same with does. That said, you could have a buck smarter than a equal age doe or a doe smarter than a equal age buck.

The name of the documentary is "touching the wild" and was aired by PBS. You may be able to find it on youtube. It's a good watch.

If anyone would know it's Mbrock. He said it better than I could. You can't kill what isn't on your property.

what Matt said

I would think smarter in different ways. Does are raising babies and finding food to feed the herd as well as trying to stay alive. A buck has a target on his back from the time he has 3inch spikes on his head. Hes just trying to stay alive. Ive always thought bucks were more scared than smart. Seems like to me they stay in a mode similar to a frightened juvenile horse, if youve ever been around one of those. That is except when theyre in rut.

Lota truth here, there's way fewer 5YO and older bucks. That aside , I'd say the buck MAY be a little harder to kill only because I think those older bucks are like grumpy old men and are more reclusive than does. Even if there's a difference , don't know how you'd prove it.

Good point , if a buck and a doe are on the same property where does are sacred but every buck is far game. If a buck lives to 5 he's probably been in bachelor groups where their buddies were shot , he becomes very reclusive and only moves at night , but the older does move freely when and where they want . I've hunted in rugged terra for nearly 50 years , I can say the older bucks will bed in much more secluded locations than a doe group.

Your example of the juvenile horse makes me think of turkeys, many will say how smart the wild turkey is . I've heard some of the finest turkey hunters in North Bama say they are not smart , they are just scared of everything and hyper cautious.

Now I guess the question is being smarter and harder to kill one in the same?

^^^^^^^

I think it depends.
If the does have been getting thinner pretty hard, they’ll go nocturnal and can be just as hard to get on as a buck.
If they’re protected and walking around pretty much it unmolested, they’ll seem easy.

They all come to corn eventually

Yep , but you may have to hunt in the very early , dark hours of the morning to get that 5YO buck in yer crosshairs.

Old doe they get away with more

You gonna see more 5 year old does that 5 years old bucks simply because there are a lot more of them .

With a 5 year old buck , you gonna kill it and never see it again

Sounds good to me.

Does travel in packs which makes them a little easier to spot and it's the young ones in the group who do stupid things and expose the others.

I think 5 years old is a little bit of a tricky age to pick because from what I’ve seen a 7-8+ year old buck is a totally different creature. I don’t know that an old doe changes quite as much although she may. We call 5 mature but behavioral changes still take place in the years following no different than a 3 year old going to a 5 year old…... They become really reclusive acting. I’ve had a circus preforming in front of me in the street light with does and young bucks….knowing that there was at least one or two mature bucks in the cover but would not come in. I messed with one with a grunt call enough one night that he got pissed off and ran into the light long enough to see he was tall and tight…..and then he dipped right back into the cover and darkness. I have a new appreciation for them to say the least. If you want to kill a buck that’s 7+ then you’re likely gonna have to play chess and not checkers. You might luck up but the odds are not in your favor for sure. ..Even if you play chess then you may still get beat and very likely will most times. I’m about to the point of questioning whether I really want to even play the game that hard anymore. The great thing about this though is that often times with big bucks….less is more…….

I have one deer that’s shpws up out of nowhere late in the season that I’ve seen once each of the last 3 seasons that’s probably 9-10 years old. He has nothing but a big main beam on each side now but he smells like a goat farm. Strong enough that I could smell him at 80 yards. Thermals and sinking air hold that scent down more at night so I think that was part of it. He’s #1 on my hit list this year…..If he were to walk out with a 140 inch buck or something like that it would definitely put me in a conundrum over which to shoot. This old buck would be lucky to score 40 much less 140…..He’d be a rare trophy though that’s far more special than just another big buck. Old age will likely catch up with him before I do. We'll see though...I've figured out how they're dickin me during the daylight and I've got a trap ready to spring this time.

Probably not that many 2 year old bucks out there either.

Smarter til the rut hits

Question, how does one even see a 5yo buck in Al.

Hunt where they are.

One you gotta be fortunate to be in a place where any even exist……which may actually be more wide spread than most would believe……and two you gotta hunt smart and not care about just going hunting whenever…..If a deer ever reaches 6-7+ years old then there’s a good chance he’s never gonna be killed unless it just happens to be dumb luck that gets him. They’re just playing the game on an expert level at that point that’s hard to compete with....they just don't move that much is my theory. ……I think some of the biggest keys to being able to kill them lie in the way the land lays out…..Some spots and layouts are just much better mouse traps that helps to even the odds a little. Some areas and lay outs though….the deer just has a tactical advantage that just about can’t be overcome. It’s like war strategy….he’s got the high ground…..

Now one interesting concept I heard one time that I think may have some merit is that the old 7-8 year old buck wasn’t just smarter than other deer and seeked out that special hidey hole that allowed him to grow to that age…..This guy thought that the deer simply got lucky and picked a spot as a dispersing yearling that was just the right spot. It was the spots producing the big bucks and not the big bucks seeking out the spots…if that makes sense. That was Don Higgins idea he talked about years ago on the old QDMA forum.

I’ve seen plenty of them. Most important part is having one. You can’t see what’s not there and there’s a lot of real estate without bucks that age. Second part is lack of pressure. Keep pressure light and hunt smart and they’re no harder to see than any other age class.

No they are not. There are not a lot of 5+ year old bucks walking around, compared to 5+ year old does.

There’s 5 year old bucks in AL??

One of the things that I’ve seen while traveling around tracking that has really been a surprise to me is how many big old bucks are being killed in areas that people don’t even think about as being big buck producing counties or areas. Certain counties get talked about like Macon and Bullock and Russell because of the number of deer that are there…..but I track for folks killing big ones….let me rephrase that….”shooting at” big ones….. ......in every county around me. Some of the biggest I’ve tracked have come from Elmore and Coosa ….There’s just not as many deer in some places….There’s still big old bucks in the lower density areas though.

That’s why I was saying that I think you’d be surprised how much more widespread it is for old bucks to exist….I think it has a lot to do with the existence of strategic locations that give the deer an advantage over us that we just about can’t beat. I think those spots produce old bucks and they can be anywhere deer exist.

= the "Bankhead Effect"

I tend to think old does are smarter/more wary due to more interactions with people & opportunities to be educated.

I would speculate that the chances of a buck living to 5 without being in the same field/presence of other deer being shot is high. If he would've been there, he would've been shot (or shot at) instead.

A 5yr old doe on the other hand, would likely have witnessed human caused death multiple times... and she has learned from each of them.

I would think that CNCs experience with the old deer and the street light is more evidence that a buck with an aversion for non-natural light will help him live longer than one who isn't light sensitive. Flashlights, spotlights, and headlights will get him killed.

*** Side note, I'd love to see folks taking a stab at aging does on the hoof like they do bucks. I'd imagine most doe "aging" comes at guesses based off of hair color around face.

Bank head would be a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Jackson county is too. Those mountains and hollers give the bucks a big edge. There's some places on the management area....or used to be....where you just about couldn't get to it feasibly.

only shoot does for 10 years (or 70) and see who is smarter. If bucks are so smart they would stop killing each other over some random doe in estrus.

X2

I don't think its correct to call it "smarter"....It's behavioral differences just like in humans. Women and men act different.