I didn't say that he is not a biologist...I said that what you posted is not research.

I think the problem here is that you do not understand what research is. You keep posting articles from the popular press and will not post any research to support it.

It's been so long I can't even remember what 49er was asking about now. Why not just post any study you can find to start with so we can see that you know what one looks like. 49er can ask you for what he would like to see when his 10 minutes is up!

Yeah, I know... how dare Kip Adams have or form opinions from "his" research and thousands of others who've researched whitetail deer before him which has encompassed his many years of formal education on the biology of the whitetail deer and its habitat.

OK, let's do this: "Bucktrot states:_______________________" jlccoffee/49er say: Site me some studies to back that up!

Fill in the blank.

Noone said he wasn't entitled to his opinion. Just said his opinion is just that.

49er simply asked for some research. Research is held to a higher standard than opinion and is of course more valuable than an opinion. Any scientist knows that.

A certified diesel mechanic was trying to explain to me the other day why diesels of today outperform diesels of yesteryear.

How dare him?!?!?!? That SOB!!! Just because he is "certified" on diesel engines and took part in formal education and has spent several years working on and breaking down and putting back together diesel engines gives him NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to tell me about diesel engines!!

I mean, for heaven's sakes, I'm a marketing major and by God I know as much as that diesel mechanic about diesel engines!!! After all, I drive one!!!

That sounds about as ridiculous as you discrediting Kip Adams!

I didn't discredit him. I asked for research.

.

Why do you keep posting opinions and trying to say they are scientific facts just because of who stated them?

Why not just post the research?

I asked for any study you could find and haven't even gotten that yet as a starting point.

Specifically, again jlccoffee.... what do you want to see studies about? You brought it up so what do you want to see studies on? Name it!

Finding out information is not hard these days.

LOL!! What have I stated that you disagree with? Ya want help?

Let's see.... sex ratios of whitetail deer as it relates to herd health? Don't wait on 49er.

I never said you stated anything I disagree with...I simply asked you to give 49er some research.

How about some research on buck to doe ratio. Anything.

OK... I will do my best to site you some studies. Sigh!! This is comical and why should I even G a S what you think. Please know that my demeanor is not one of disrespect or anger as the written word is hard to decipher. I'm chuckling here.... let me get to work.

I bet there are people sitting on the sidelines (and eating popcorn) that could site some studies. Dr. Woods, please help! Wishful thinking!

Don't wait up! I'm getting sleepy myself!

Just one or two for tonight...got to get up and check my traps before work tomorrow.

The Effects of Adult Sex Ratio on Reproduction in White-tailed Deer
David C. Guynn, Jr.
Department of Forestry, Clemson University
Clemson, South Carolina
Robert J. Hamilton
South Carolina Wildlife and Marine Resources Department
Walterboro, South Carolina

Conclusions
In addition to being a primary factor affecting the
quality of hunting experiences, the adult sex ratio may
have important biological implications for the white-tailed
deer. It appears that adult sex ratio affects breeding season
length and the mean conception date in adult deer. With a
balanced sex ratio, estrus does have less difficulty finding
a buck during their 24-hour period of breeding receptivity,
and fewer does recycle and conceive during subsequent
estrus periods. This situation favors a relatively short
breeding season and an early mean conception date.
Fawns conceived in herds with a balanced buck:doe ratio
will be born at the optimal time for their survival and
growth. Early-born fawns should exhibit increased body
size, antler development, resistance to disease and
parasites and reproductive potential.
Fetal sex ratio is affected by nutritional conditions and
perhaps by the adult sex ratio. Mean and range of
conception dates and fetal sex ratios should be explored as
indicators of herd condition and balance of age and sex
structure.

**************************************************

The aforementioned is not my conclusion... it's that of the investigators based on their findings.

ya'll are giving me a headache......

Thank you...I think we finally have a breakthrough.

Here is a link to the study.

http://cnrit.tamu.edu/cgrm/IRR2/1986/The...White-Taile.pdf

I read that one before but it has been a while.

So the next time 49er asks for research to back something up, instead of calling him names just send him something like that.

BamaFred, me too.

Jlccoffee, I will take your advice. Thanks.

Regarding the study... I want my bucks breeding or rutting for as short a period as possible. Well, I love hunting the rut so I say that with an appreciation of the hunting success of the rut. So, I guess I mean I want a natural rutting time frame as you'd have with a balanced sex ratio. Anyway, the shorter the rut, the faster the bucks get back to eating and surviving. A long period of rutting for a mature buck will take its toll on him.

I want my fawns born as early as possible before the fall stress period and winter months so they can put on more weight. Also, and I can't prove this and it may not be true but I guess it would be called a prey-dumping where many fawns will be born about the same time and fawns would overwhelm predators. It's kinda like being able to hit one baseball at a time over a period of time rather than attempting to hit several baseballs thrown all at once.

As the summer moves along, and of course years vary depending on weather, protein content of browse decreases and begins to burn up which makes rearing of fawns more difficult for doe and fawns.

With the shorter rut, bucks enter the spring in better shape and have less "catching up to do" which makes for better health and antlers. I can't prove this (better antlers) but just kinda using basic reasoning here.

Brian Murphy, a whitetail biologist says:

While unrelated to fawn sex ratios, a study by Holzenbein and Marchinton in Virginia concluded that harvesting a doe with a buck fawn at her side can significantly decrease the odds the fawn will disperse when it reaches 12-18 months of age. They compared 34 buck fawns divided into two groups – 19 that were left with their mothers (non-orphans) and 15 whose mothers were harvested or removed (orphans). The results were surprising. By 30 months of age, 87 percent of the non-orphans had dispersed from their birth areas, but only nine percent of the orphans had left theirs. In other words, dispersal was greatly reduced if the young buck’s mother was removed prior to dispersal. So, harvesting a buck fawn’s mother before she forces it to leave is another potential strategy to increase the number of bucks on your property.

As the hot, hazy days of summer begin to give way to the promise of autumn and opening day of archery season, take advantage of this Whitetail Science and devise a doe harvest strategy that best meets your objectives. Who knows, you might just be able to increase the number of bucks on your favorite hunting area. At the least, I hope you have gained a new appreciation for the fascinating and complex world of the whitetail.

Brian Murphy is a wildlife biologist and CEO of the Quality Deer Management Association (www.QDMA.com). He also has been an avid bowhunter for the past 30 years.

The deer study you cited above stated that killing does may increase the number of female fawns that are born and decrease the number of male fawns born. That was one of the changes that was observed during the study.

Why would you manage for fewer buck fawns if your goal is to have more bucks?

Looks like the study concludes that killing does not only decreases the number of buck fawns being born due to fewer does remaining in the population to give birth, but in addition it reduces the ratio of buck fawns being born to the does that are left.


Also: I'm color blind, but it looks to me like the population in the study was reduced from 106 deer per sq. mile to 35 deer per sq. mile which is the typical population level in most of Alabama according to the QDMA deer density map (if I'm seeing the colors right). Why is there a claim of overpopulation in Alabama if 35 deer per sq. mile is a good deer density? Would a continued reduction further reduce the number of male fawns being born compared to female fawns being born in Alabama as it was in the S.C. project?

If we continue to reduce the deer populations in Alabama, where is the point of beginning for the "predator pit" mentioned in Angela Jackson's study at Ft. Rucker?



Angela's study - link


Buck to doe ratios and male age structure should not be given more attention than the conservation of the species. It is the conservation of the species that is the goal of our game and fish laws, not wildlife management.

Who is in a better position to know the specifics of how the deer species is faring in a given area; the people who pay the bills and do the work on that property and actually observe what is happening there or a group of the governor's buddies sitting in a room in Montgomery giving advice and writing rules and have never set foot on the property?

1 49er. What you quoted does NOT say anything about manipulating what sex a fawn will be when it's born!!!! What's it's saying is this: Because of mother nature's encoded behavior for gene dispersal, a doe will run her young buck fawns away from her doe group. The young buck will be forced to find another home range. I don't know if you've noticed or not but lone deer usually are young bucks trying to find their way.

What Brian pointed out was that the study suggested that orphaned buck fawns (where its mother was killed and he's not talking about "spotted fawns"!) seemed to stay closer to the area they were born and did not disperse like the young bucks did whose mother was not killed.

I never read where the "sex of the fawn" could be manipulated!!!

2 You're going to have to cut and paste where it states that in the study.

3 Please show me where you're getting this crazy idea. Again, cut and paste this specific paragraph where I and the readers can see it!!! I've never heard the QDMA quote a study that suggested you could manipulate the sex of a fawn before it's born!!

4 You sound like James Carvel or Rev Al Sharpton. Brian's point is that if you need to harvest some does, shoot the does with fawns and he DOESN'T mean spotted fawns!!! Don't start attacking that by reading into it something that's not there! BTW, Brian has quoted research that suggested that an orphaned fawn's chances of surviving is high if the fawn is in the post-spotted stage.

5 You're polluting the QDMA's position. In most of North America, deer populations have exploded. In some areas, this has been reversed; in other areas, it's about right... it varies. Just as you'd rather kill sows in a feral hog population to have an impact on recruitment/populations, you'd want to kill the "recruiters", which would be does.

AGAIN, the QDMA's stance is "managed your deer herd and habitat" and it gives hunters several tools or methods of doing so. If you need to kill does, kill them. If not, then DON'T!!! It's that simple.

Also, Mother Nature has a plan to overcome a low deer density where healthy adult does will start having triplets. Also, it's nature's way of cycles. Where there's available food for coyotes, they flourish! When the food's not there, they'll decline in numbers.

Can a deer population be over-harvested!! YES!!!!!!! Can it be difficult for the deer herd to overcome this problems? YES!!!!!

I have no doubt about the Ft. Rucker study or any other area in the state where deer numbers are down.

I also know that deer sightings were down this year as warm weather and available food was apparent. I saw acorns on the ground in January. We didn't get enough rain in Dallas County to sour the acorns on the ground.

Stop saying that the QDMA promotes the unrestrained killing of does!!! The QDMA supports making an "educated decision" by harvest and observation data and not an off-the-cuff decision from the local diner coffee table or shooting house.

It is my belief that you simply don't like buck restrictions 49er and that's your main beef with the QDMA so you attempt to discredit this organization as much as you can.

You have a HUGE battle if this is the case as most all states (it may be all) have some sort of buck restrictions, and for good reason.

Great post, Bucktrot ^^^^, I got a headache too.