WTB
by Okalona. 03/28/24 07:44 AM
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: turkey247]
#2836351
06/23/19 09:02 PM
06/23/19 09:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938 Over Yonder
Clem
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
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Probably will happen here within a few years with the tags and fees. Only a matter of time.
The "can only kill one in 10 days in a zone" is bullchit for anyone traveling to hunt. You can't go for a weekend and kill a bird on Friday and Saturday, or Saturday and Sunday, and then head home?
What a load of crap. I think Missouri has the same regulation. I was going to hunt up there a few years ago on a trip until I saw that, and didn't at all. So instead of getting a non-resident license from me they got nothing.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: crenshawco]
#2836754
06/24/19 12:34 PM
06/24/19 12:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,978 South of 20/North of 10
North40R
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,978
South of 20/North of 10
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They can kiss my arse if they go to some crap like that here. I'll just outlaw it and hunt as I see fit Easy there Cole! Remember the first rule of fight club?
Adopt the pace of nature, her secret is patience. Emerson
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: turkey247]
#2836790
06/24/19 12:58 PM
06/24/19 12:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938 Over Yonder
Clem
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
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As with anything, if someone could explain in a rational, logical way that this "10 day rule" makes biological sense I'd love to hear it. I'm all about hearing whatever rationalization is involved.
My contention is it impacts non-resident hunters who wouldn't travel to SC or Missouri or another state for opening weekend or opening day. If I could only shoot one turkey in 10 days before being able to return, and I don't want to hear all this "Oh, you should enjoy the camaraderie and spirit of hunting" bullchit because that's not always how it is in reality, then I wouldn't probably go. I might only be able to make it for that opening weekend, or make a long 4-day weekend out of it but not be able to return a week or two later for my second bird.
So they would get zero from me. Zero money, zero expenses for gas-travel-hotel-food-whatever, zero money from the feds for my license purchase. Zilch. Zero. Nada.
But that is based on money, not biology. Prove to me that in Missouri or South Carolina or anywhere that me killing a turkey on Saturday and Sunday before blowing out of town is biologically detrimental to the population in any way, and I'll be interested. If so, fine. I'd like to hear it. Same for any animal, fish, bird, whatever.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Remington270]
#2836795
06/24/19 01:01 PM
06/24/19 01:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938 Over Yonder
Clem
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
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When I listen to the MeatEater podcast, I really wonder if these guys are missing the forest for the trees. In their effort to preserve the "resource", they're totally taking the fun out of hunting. Not to mention the whole "liberty" thing that Americans once cherished. It's just lip service now. Bingo. You should be happy with your one deer a year, though, that you had to draw a tag for and may not get a tag for next season but you should appreciate the experience and know you helped mankind. That doesn't mean going out and wiping out 93 deer a year. But it shouldn't also mean clamping down to the point that Harry Hunter says "Eh, phuck it. I'll go catfishing and take up photography."
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Clem]
#2837061
06/24/19 05:55 PM
06/24/19 05:55 PM
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 79 SC
Wambaw
spike
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spike
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 79
SC
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As with anything, if someone could explain in a rational, logical way that this "10 day rule" makes biological sense I'd love to hear it. I'm all about hearing whatever rationalization is involved.
My contention is it impacts non-resident hunters who wouldn't travel to SC or Missouri or another state for opening weekend or opening day. If I could only shoot one turkey in 10 days before being able to return, and I don't want to hear all this "Oh, you should enjoy the camaraderie and spirit of hunting" bullchit because that's not always how it is in reality, then I wouldn't probably go. I might only be able to make it for that opening weekend, or make a long 4-day weekend out of it but not be able to return a week or two later for my second bird.
So they would get zero from me. Zero money, zero expenses for gas-travel-hotel-food-whatever, zero money from the feds for my license purchase. Zilch. Zero. Nada.
But that is based on money, not biology. Prove to me that in Missouri or South Carolina or anywhere that me killing a turkey on Saturday and Sunday before blowing out of town is biologically detrimental to the population in any way, and I'll be interested. If so, fine. I'd like to hear it. Same for any animal, fish, bird, whatever.
I live in SC and agree 100 percent. The contention from DNR is that gobblers are being killed "too early in the breeding cycle and it is negatively impacting the successful breeding of hens, which in turn impacts poult recruitment. If that is the case, explain the record harvests from many years in a row when the season opened March 15. I could type a novel on this but don't have it in me. Poorcountrypreacher usually has some good dialogue for this kind of debate and generally what he says I tend to agree with. I think the bottom line is there is just too many people turkey hunting now. There is a limited amount of resources and too many people trying to take from it. This is true for a pile of hunting/fishing activities.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Ruger7mag]
#2837139
06/24/19 07:41 PM
06/24/19 07:41 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,052 Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,052
Sylacauga, AL
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I read the study summary that SC released for the public. In my opinion, the evidence they collected came nowhere close to supporting the conclusions they reached. It's disappointing when it appears that the scientific community is pushing what looks more like a political agenda.
They had research on an unhunted tract and found that it had one to two more gobbles per day than their hunted land. That's a long way from proving that hunting is damaging poult production.
All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Ruger7mag]
#2837270
06/24/19 10:01 PM
06/24/19 10:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779 LASW
turkey247
OP
10 point
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OP
10 point
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779
LASW
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I wish TN would go to the 1 bird in the first 10 days... Why? Would that be “fair”? Would the guys that don’t take vacation not have to worry about guys that care enough to actually take vacation for turkey season? Yep - let’s make sure it’s fair.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: turkey247]
#2837273
06/24/19 10:10 PM
06/24/19 10:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 38,489 N. Bama
257wbymag
Boo Boo Head
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Boo Boo Head
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 38,489
N. Bama
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I hate the word fair. There’s no more democrat used word out there than “fair”
Quietly killing turkeys where youre not!!! My tank full of give a fraks been runnin on empty I'm the paterfamilias
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: turkey247]
#2837303
06/24/19 11:02 PM
06/24/19 11:02 PM
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 360 TN
Ruger7mag
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 360
TN
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I wish TN would go to the 1 bird in the first 10 days... Why? Would that be “fair”? Would the guys that don’t take vacation not have to worry about guys that care enough to actually take vacation for turkey season? Yep - let’s make sure it’s fair. How in the hell did you get that I'm worried about it being fair? I don't care if it's fair. Time off is not an issue with me either. I can hunt almost every day of our season if I decide to.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Ruger7mag]
#2837308
06/24/19 11:15 PM
06/24/19 11:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779 LASW
turkey247
OP
10 point
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OP
10 point
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779
LASW
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I wish TN would go to the 1 bird in the first 10 days... Why? Would that be “fair”? Would the guys that don’t take vacation not have to worry about guys that care enough to actually take vacation for turkey season? Yep - let’s make sure it’s fair. How in the hell did you get that I'm worried about it being fair? I don't care if it's fair. Time off is not an issue with me either. I can hunt almost every day of our season if I decide to. Then, why? Why support a dumb rule?
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Ruger7mag]
#2837320
06/25/19 12:03 AM
06/25/19 12:03 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779 LASW
turkey247
OP
10 point
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OP
10 point
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779
LASW
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1 bird in the first 10 days will at least curb the killing of several toms and allow hens to be bred. So, basically, you are buying the “research”. Your neighbor to the north (KY) has had a very late starting date and a two bird limit for years. Real, actual research given it’s actually implemented. Have they had a population explosion? Nope, not at all. If TN adopted KY seasons, you’d be ok with that? They haven’t proven anything. Neither has all this “research”.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Ruger7mag]
#2837399
06/25/19 08:16 AM
06/25/19 08:16 AM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938 Over Yonder
Clem
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
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The powers that be don't want to admit that our turkey population is in jeopardy.
Wildlife agences in a dozen or so Southeast states have said for the last 8-10 years the populations are in trouble. They haven't ignored it or said otherwise.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Ruger7mag]
#2837460
06/25/19 09:46 AM
06/25/19 09:46 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,052 Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,052
Sylacauga, AL
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I'd be fine with TN pushing back the start date a few weeks. The overall season limit won't be as important if those birds are protected during that critical early time frame.
Something has to be done. I can guarantee our population issue isn't going to fix itself. My limited experience in TN says you might as well make turkeys a protected species if you push the season back "a few weeks." I tried for 3 years to find a place in TN where turkeys were still gobbling good in early May, and failed. The gobbling was mostly over by then, though there were still plenty of gobblers around. I didn't want to drive to another state to deer hunt them, so I gave up on TN. It seems you are buying the theory that is being put out by various states - that so many gobblers are being killed early in the season that there aren't enough to breed the hens. I have often said that might actually happen in some places with low populations, but I have never hunted in a place like that. When turkeys are gobbling throughout the season, common sense says that hens can find a gobbler to breed, and over 60 years of our experience in AL also says that it's true. It only takes one gobbler to breed a bunch of hens. Since it's hard to convince hunters that there aren't enough gobblers to breed hens when we know that they are there, the latest variation of the theory is that hens are only willing to breed with the dominant gobbler and they don't breed at all if he gets killed. I can't imagine how anyone could set up a scientific study to prove such an idea, but if they have, it hasn't been shared with the public. One young biologist even said that hens were making a conscious decision not to breed. How could he possibly know what a hen is thinking? When such anthromorphic ideas appear among the scientific community, it causes many of us to lose confidence in the validity of the research, and that is sad. I don't doubt that some hens don't breed and nest, but it's always been normal for that to happen. I could be wrong, but I think whatever declines in population might be happening are almost entirely habitat related. Habitat never stays the same. It changes with the weather, and what is good habitat one year can produce nothing the next year. I wish they would focus the research on habitat instead of hunting. Hunters are funding most of the research, and the research dollars are then being used to discredit hunting, when it really has very little to do with overall populations. There is a very strong anti-hunting movement in the US, and it's been with us a long time. It isn't surprising that it has invaded the state game and fish divisions. Expect it to get worse.
All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Wambaw]
#2837521
06/25/19 11:27 AM
06/25/19 11:27 AM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 652 SW Alabama
ALFisher
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 652
SW Alabama
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[quote=Clem]
I think the bottom line is there is just too many people turkey hunting now. There is a limited amount of resources and too many people trying to take from it. This is true for a pile of hunting/fishing activities. This is very, very true. This, and that decoys are increasing harvest rates significantly. In response, managers have to do something. The most logical thing is to make sure that turkeys have plenty of nesting/egg laying opportunities at the right time of year. It's been proven that peak nesting doesn't occur until April in lower Alabama, so arguably our season should open later from a biological standpoint but doesn't because of tradition and pressure from hunters. There's a guy at UGA named Michael Chamberlain who has done all kinds of research on this. His research supports a lot of these decisions and shows how some of them are not that smart but are done because of pressure or tradition. Look him up on Facebook and read his Turkey Tuesday this week on turkey seasons.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: ALFisher]
#2837550
06/25/19 12:09 PM
06/25/19 12:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779 LASW
turkey247
OP
10 point
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OP
10 point
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779
LASW
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This, and that decoys are increasing harvest rates significantly. There’s no data to support this that I’m aware of. Where are harvest rates increasing?
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: turkey247]
#2837554
06/25/19 12:15 PM
06/25/19 12:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938 Over Yonder
Clem
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
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To clarify in ALFisher's post above, Wambaw made that comment about "the bottom line." Not me.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: turkey247]
#2837558
06/25/19 12:16 PM
06/25/19 12:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938 Over Yonder
Clem
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
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This, and that decoys are increasing harvest rates significantly. There’s no data to support this that I’m aware of. Where are harvest rates increasing? Please provide the statistical data proving that decoys have increased "harvest" rates. Any state. Would love to see any before-after data from legitimate source(s) showing this.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: turkey247]
#2837582
06/25/19 01:02 PM
06/25/19 01:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,052 Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,052
Sylacauga, AL
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Where is there any proof that Spring gobbler harvest fluctuations have a direct impact on poult production? Show us the proof! Tie the studies with some proof, not speculation. Show us a state that’s proven it.
How about figure out what happened in areas where’s there’s decline. Figure that out, and act accordingly.
TN didn’t experience quick declines because of Spring gobbler harvest. Did the Spring harvest even change drastically during those times? I doubt it. But the only thing we can think to do is alter hunting season. If it wasn’t the problem, how can changing it be the solution?
Your first question is the one I have wondered about many times. If there is research showing higher poult recruitment rates on land that isn't hunted, I would have to rethink my position. The SC study had access to land that was unhunted, and they reported hearing slightly more gobbling on that land. Common sense says that should be expected. The big question is does more gobbling result in more poults? They had poult recruitment rates for places they studied, but I didn't see any mention of those rates being higher on the unhunted land. Were they? I suspect that they must not have been or they would have used it as exhibit A in their report. If poult recruitment is the same on unhunted land as it is on hunted land, then it proves what biologists were saying 50 years ago - that spring gobbler hunting has no effect on the overall turkey population. And if that is true, then further restrictions on spring hunting will do nothing to increase overall numbers. What further restrictions will accomplish is an illusion that things are now "fairer." And it seems our society values fairness more than anything, so expect us to continue down the path of restricting hunting. What amazes me is the number of hunters who cheer for it to happen.
All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: turkey247]
#2837600
06/25/19 01:18 PM
06/25/19 01:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938 Over Yonder
Clem
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
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Not only cheer for it, but fight tooth and nail for more "fairness" when in reality it's often just restrictions that never will be reversed.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: turkey247]
#2837607
06/25/19 01:28 PM
06/25/19 01:28 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,092 alabama
BhamFred
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,092
alabama
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Missouri used to have a two week season M-F, closed weekend, M-F with a tag good in each week.
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Clem]
#2837631
06/25/19 01:46 PM
06/25/19 01:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 360 TN
Ruger7mag
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 360
TN
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This, and that decoys are increasing harvest rates significantly. There’s no data to support this that I’m aware of. Where are harvest rates increasing? Please provide the statistical data proving that decoys have increased "harvest" rates. Any state. Would love to see any before-after data from legitimate source(s) showing this. I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money that without decoys/reaping, our TN harvest totals would plummet. I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of our total kills were with the aid of decoys. Of course I have no way of ever proving this.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Ruger7mag]
#2837747
06/25/19 05:04 PM
06/25/19 05:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779 LASW
turkey247
OP
10 point
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OP
10 point
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779
LASW
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This, and that decoys are increasing harvest rates significantly. There’s no data to support this that I’m aware of. Where are harvest rates increasing? Please provide the statistical data proving that decoys have increased "harvest" rates. Any state. Would love to see any before-after data from legitimate source(s) showing this. I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money that without decoys/reaping, our TN harvest totals would plummet. I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of our total kills were with the aid of decoys. Of course I have no way of ever proving this. Dead is dead. There’s no degree of dead. Only dead. Active gobblers will figure out a way to die at some point during the season. I’ve never seen any state data showing 50% increase harvest the first year decoys were legal. Matter of fact, please produce an article or data where any increased harvest was related to the use of decoys. Close to the same number of gobblers die in the Spring with or without IMO. Why does it matter how they died? For this particular discussion, it’s irrelevant anyway.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Ruger7mag]
#2838012
06/25/19 10:04 PM
06/25/19 10:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779 LASW
turkey247
OP
10 point
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OP
10 point
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779
LASW
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It's not irrelevant in this discussion. A large percentage of those toms that are killed in the first two weeks of season are killed over decoys/reaped. Those first two weeks are usually when the male turkey decoys are the most productive. Also those almost really tough dominant birds march to those decoys and die. Which is it? What opinion or spoonfed agenda from the “study” crowd you gonna go with? For a minute, you said decoys caused twice as many kills. Get corrected on that, and now it just causes more gobblers to be killed too early in the season. Bad opinion followed by spewing the research verbiage. And you still haven’t answered why it’s relevant to poult production. Maybe cause the connection hasn’t actually been proved. What else you got? Other than being a sheeple and wanting some dumb restriction.
Last edited by turkey247; 06/25/19 10:05 PM.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: turkey247]
#2838042
06/25/19 10:59 PM
06/25/19 10:59 PM
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 360 TN
Ruger7mag
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 360
TN
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When was I corrected?
I want the season pushed back to allow the hens to be bred.
Season pushed back won't happen, so I said I'd be fine with only 1 bird the first 10 days.
This allows more toms to live and breed hens. This will help accomplish the same thing a later start date does.
I stand by MY theory that 50% of the birds killed in TN are over decoys/reaped.
Those decoys are USUALLY most effective the first two weeks of season.
Hence the reason I said in my first post that the decoy guys/reapers wouldn't be happy with 1 bird in the first 10 days of season
All those birds that would otherwise be safe if it wasn't for a decoy, are being killed in that early part of the season.
I could provide 100% factual evidence to you and it still wouldn't be good enough.
I'm guessing you're a decoy guy
I'll just bury my head in the sand and hope our turkey population fixes itself.
Last edited by Ruger7mag; 06/25/19 11:00 PM.
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: turkey247]
#2838137
06/26/19 07:56 AM
06/26/19 07:56 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,092 alabama
BhamFred
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,092
alabama
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I find it hard to believe that the kill skyrockets with the use of decoys, not been my experience while bowhunting. A heck of a lot of gobblers run AWAY from decoys.
Decline causes, IMHO, are habitat destruction, huge increases in egg predators, and coyotes, and increase in hunters last.
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Re: South Carolina changes
[Re: Ruger7mag]
#2838777
06/26/19 09:37 PM
06/26/19 09:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,176 Elm Grove, La
Clark8907
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,176
Elm Grove, La
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This, and that decoys are increasing harvest rates significantly. There’s no data to support this that I’m aware of. Where are harvest rates increasing? Please provide the statistical data proving that decoys have increased "harvest" rates. Any state. Would love to see any before-after data from legitimate source(s) showing this. I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money that without decoys/reaping, our TN harvest totals would plummet. I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of our total kills were with the aid of decoys. Of course I have no way of ever proving this. Sounds to me like the Tennessee boys need to learn how to truly Turkey hunt if they are depending on reaping and decoys.
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