Do you consider a 2.5 year old deer with no brow tines a cull buck? If not, when does a deer with no brow tines become a cull? Or does it? A friend of mine killed a 2-2.5 year old 6 point that had no brow tines as a cull. I personally don't buy in to his line of thinking for such a young deer. In my opinion, the fact that he had 6 points with no brow tines, but was so young showed promise for the deer. I'm no expert though by any means. What do y'all think?

No expert here,but I read once that brow tines are the #1 thing that are passed from 1 generation to the next by a buck.I lived in an area once that had a bunch of deer with no brow tines,it sure made me think about what I had read.

I would have let him grow another year.

Here we go AGAIN!!!!

Funny how little you heard the term " cull buck" used back in the seventies and eighties.....

Wasnt no such thing... If the sucker had antlers on his head, we shot him and was dang happy about it.....

I think a "cull buck" is a person's excuse to shoot whatever they want.

We try to base it more on body weight and age characteristics than just antlers. If it is a large deer with apparent age that we have had on camera several years then we might take him out. We don't "cull" any young deer on purpose.

On my lease a cull buck cost $100.00. So not too many get killed.

Maybe we ought to coin a new phrase "Cull Hunter "

No young buck is considered a "cull" at my house.

Good idea- the idea of "cull bucks" is ridiculous for several reasons, let me count the ways: 1. At least half of the genetics of a herd lie in female deer, which have no antlers. 2. Read up on evolution, and see how long it takes for even a small change to take effect in a population... longer than any of our lifetimes, and surely not 10-15 yrs. 3. You can't be sure that a deer's poorly formed antlers aren't from an injury - which would not affect its genetics.

I think itchy trigger finger accounts for most of the cull buck activity

There is no such thing as a 2.5 year old cull deer in Alabama. I understand the part about it not having brow tines and probably a good chance it never will, but I've seen some bucks with out brow tines that I would have put on the wall, that never would have gotten that way had they been killed when they were 2. Besides that factor in the doe has as much or more to do with antler characteristics coupled by the very very limited control you have over a free ranging herd on a relatively small tract of land (I assume you are hunting less than 10,000 acres) and you killing that 2 year old with no brows will do nothing for you expect give you one less 2 year old to make it to 3.

I wouldn't use cull for any 2 year old in bama. I've also seen bucks with zero indication of brow tines throw some impressive brows at 5 or older. Also seen brows disappear. You never know what they'll do, but if they are dead.....then you know what they won't do with certainty.

Is that enforced even if the hunter kills an actual cull? About 20 years ago at one of the private school hunts in SW AL a hunter killed a 145 lb spike. Most of the other hunters were ragging the guy for shooting a future hoss deer, until the jawbone was pulled. The jawbone said the deer was a 3 year old.

What about spike on one side bucks? Still have to pay the fine?

I know the genetic makeup of the herd can't be changed by killing a true cull buck but it is one less mouth to feed.

Lucky you are not a biologist with that opinion - someone would be demanding that you post your resume to back it up

On my land I shoot all non-brow tined bucks and all bucks with a spike on one side and 3+ points on the other. I don't know about the long range effect on antlers, but it is a start and I don't get all crazy about "growing trophy" deer.

there are "cull bucks" . if i see one i will cull him . why would i let him walk to bred ?

I have pics of a spike from some land I was gonna lease last yr I would guess him @ 4+ ... I would call that a "cull buck" and would have shot him had I gotten the land asap to make sure he didn't breed. Imo to say there is no such thing as cull bucks in bama is crazy. Also to say it takes lifetimes to have an effect on the heard is nuts cuz if I shoot what I think is a cull buck before the rut then he can not breed. Therefore heard affected .... If I continue that on my land as long as I have it .... I will have better class of bucks after some time...

People saying there are no culls in Bama is a prime reason of our dynamite genetics around here. Go talk with some people who know how to grow big deer and do it for a living out west. They'll teach you how to cull.

all of em are cull bucks unless a cull doe walks out.

we typically try to keep it to 3 or better on one side. still have monsters on our property.

Most, if not all, free ranging whitetail bucks are culls. Genetically inferior in some form or fashion. So you have a few choices: 1) shoot em all, 2) shoot some of them, or 3) let them develop/grow to be the most they can be.
Unless you are high fencing and buying straws for insemination at $10,000+ a pop, your little trigger finger is not going to change the antler configurations in your neck of the woods.
A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. However, a mature deer has done all he is able to do and I can appreciate and respect that not all of them are going to be B&C, but are "trophies" none the less, regardless of antler configuration.
Cull, is a four letter word of meaningless significance in free ranging deer herds.

Here's what I believe. If your going to call a 4+ yr old buck with undesirable horn chacteristics a "cull" thats fine by me, I've always just said they were mature deer and am always happy to kill mature deer. However, I believe using the term "cull" on a deer that is relatively young that you have only watched for one year is an incorrect statement. For one, you have no way of knowing what caused the said deer to display a specific horn characteristic for that specific year. I have seen plenty of deer, like others have said, that may have a good side and a single beam on the other or doesn't have browtines or any other undersirable trait, turn into to some really good deer when given time to age. The irregular horns could be from a genetic defect or it could simply be from an injury, you have know way of knowing this from a single citing or from one year of pictures.

Even if you do decide to take the 2 1/2 yr old buck that displays undesirable characteristics, I don't beleive you've done anything to change to genetic make up of your herd. Even if you kill every one that you see like that your not going to kill them all, your not even going to come close to even seeing half of them. Like others have said,the other half of the gene is carried in the doe so I'm not sure your plan to irradicate that. Deer in general can travel a long way and even if you kill a "cull" buck there will be another one right there to take his place. I don't believe you've done a thing to change the gene pool long or short term and your doing nothing but wasting buck tags trying to accomplish an unrealistic goal.

When I say "goal" I'm assuming your trying to kill big bucks since your "culling" the undesirable young bucks. I just think that there's a lot better ways to improve the quality of a deer herd besides culling bucks. Instead of spending your time "culling" bucks, why not spend it improving the quality of the habitat that your hunting. Doing that and letting deer age to maturity will provide way better results in the long run in my opinion.

some tell me killing one coyote don't help but i don't buy that enough .

Is there any scientific evidence to support the idea that a lack of brow tines is a genetic trait, whether or not that trait is expressed in the deer? Have scientists been able to isolate the brow tine gene or the G3 gene?

No, A 2 year old 6pt with no brows is not a cull. Or is a 2 year old 6 with brows. IMHO not many can be labeled culls at 2-2.5. Only a very few ,and would be very obvious.

Well experts say you can kill 75% of the current yote poulation and their numbers will be unchanged by next year.

In my opinion culling bucks is absolutely beneficial for your property but not for the reason most of you are debating. No matter how many acres you own, unless its high fenced, a high percentage of the bucks on your property will have home ranges that extend beyond your property lines. Lets say hypothetically you own 300 acres. You put out a few cameras and find that you have three 3.5 yr old bucks spending most of their time on your property. Well the buck with largest antlers is not necessarily the dominant buck of the three. In this scenario the buck with the least desirable rack may very well be the dominant buck when they turn 4.5 the next year and wont tolerate the presence of the other two bucks. By shooting the buck with the smallest rack you increase the odds of keeping the larger racked bucks on your property by reducing the competition for territory among their age class. It doesnt guarantee they will stay on your property but it helps. Think about it how many people have gotten pictures of 2 or 3 year old bucks some with potential and some not so much. a couple of years down the line you get a picture of the one of the "not so much" bucks and the bucks that had potential are never seen again. All bucks that you let reach maturity are going to establish a territory and defend it, why let scraggly poor racked bucks set up shop on your property and potentially run larger racked 3.5 year olds away. Thats why you cull not because you think you can manipulate the gene pool of the entire alabama whitetail population by shooting a buck with short brow tines.

A cull buck is any buck my buddy Chuck shoots after he realizes he shouldn't have shot it.

and i'll tell them a dead coyote don't eat . a dead cull buck can't bred .

sorry about ASKING to see your resume - you were blowing such a loud horn i wanted a picture of the truck before i got run over too

so you know , this is what i consider a cull to be for my area . if i can help it i see no need for him to stay in the population . this is last year picture taken after season .

http://bamahunter.com/102.JPG

http://bamahunter.com/103.JPG

I'd shoot him

Frankie, he looks old and ugly, bang!

X a billion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's "Trophy" deer mgmt and "Quality" deer mgmt. Culling a 2.5 yr old buck, IMO, is just an excuse to shoot a buck. Besides, that's "TDM" and pure "TDM" requires MUCH time and money and resources most of us don't have the stomach to practice. It is my opinion that the harvest of mature bucks by mature hunters should be the goal depending on harvest numbers. Taking a few immature bucks out of a herd won't hurt it. A "GROUP" of hunters all killing immature bucks will hurt a herd! All "mature" bucks are trophies!! ....sorry, I get off on tangents!!!

Could you share the source of your research with us?

I would like to see the scientific studies you base your opinion on. I'm not interested in magazine articles.

Most of the deer management studies I've read conclude that having a balanced age structure of male deer is best. Why would you target only the older males if you want a balanced age structure?

I don't have anything to add to this thread, just wanted to post on it......

carry on...

troy

Cook and Gray's Biology and Management of White-tailed Deer in Alabama

Can't a dose of lead accomplish the same result?

That deer in the pics is not a young deer and definetly very mature. He might even be well past his prime and in decline. Look at that big toad body, the mass and beam length of that old warrior is "trophy class" to me. Now he will not score well, but he has lived to produce all he could be and I for one would consider him impressive, not a cull.

old deer ??? that's is not a old deer

That is 1 BRAZILLION PERCENT CORRECT... Couldn't have said it better myself. I WISH I had about 3 more in our lease that could explain this to other members besides just myself trying to get them to understand that... Excellent Excellent post...

And off topic a little but you are right down the road from me if you're in Pace...

nother picture

http://bamahunter.com/207.JPG

What would you call a "Balanced" age structure ? I am not going to get in to a pissing match about it but if you are saying you should try to maintain (I'm going to be realistic for Alabama) a 4.5 yr old buck age for your whole property that is never going to happen with new buck fawns being born every year. If you let your 2.5-3.5 yr old bucks live and thrive and shoot 4.5 yr old bucks or older, your younger bucks will graduate in to that age class the following year. Its honestly a pretty simple concept, if you manage your habitat, control predation to ensure good numbers and let the younger deer have a chance to reach that age desired age class, you will always have that age class filled of the bucks you shot that year. Its just like high school grades, you will always have a Senior class even though the previous year Seniors graduated (got shot in the case of bucks). You will always have a Junior class, a Sophomore class as well as a Freshman class. So having a balanced age structure, if I am understanding it correctly as you quoted, isn't a practice you can have if you plan on having quality deer year after year... I may have missed your point of "Balanced age structure" but your statement of "why would you only target the older males if you want a balanced age structure", lead me to the interpretation that I just explained...

If cull bucks have poor racks , how do you identify cull DOES ?
Since 50% of traits come from the doe. How do you ID a cull doe ?
By killing the buck you have only solved 50% of the problem.See how ridiculous this is ?
The way to effect antlers is age and nourishment, not a trigger finger.

QDMAV8R ,,,, thats a older mature deer here . last years picture also

http://bamahunter.com/046.JPG

Bingo...

This seems like the standard, "Ask ten guys a question, and you get fifteen answers that all seem to contradict themselves in one way or another" scenario....

Oh, and one more thing before I go feet my fat A**.. When a few of you talk about "a doe's genes are equally as important as a bucks genes". Dont you mean to say that a Doe's "carrying capacity" and overall health such as protein/vitamin content is equally important??

Wouldn't solving 50% of a problem be better than 0? Any improvement is a good thing. Agreed on age and food.

If antler traits are 50% heritable from the doe and 50% from the buck as you suggest, then killing the bucks with an undesirable trait would solve more than 50% of the problem. Those "cull does" you can't identify would have a greater chance of being bred by a buck without the trait (you killed the ones with the trait) so you would have a lower incidence of the trait in the offspring of those does. Do that another gerneration and you have an even lower incidence. Another generation and you have an even lower incidence. Eventually the incidence would be almost undetectable.

If your description of 50% from each sex is correct, then it is simple math.

Probablility and genetics are far from simple math.

With his 50% / 50% scenario and selection pressure over time, the outcome of that scenario is not that complicated.

.

True, not complicated, but more than likely wrong.

Without knowing if it a dominant or recessive trait, is the buck a carrier, but not expressing the gene and just hooked up with the right doe, do you kill every buck carrying, if not expressing, the gene for that trait every year, every doe, do bad or good bucks move in to take the place of those killed, same for does, ...

If one argues that is purely genetic, than without fully mapping the whitetail genome, and then knowing the DNA-makeup of every deer on your land, than it is probably an excercise in futility to think you can cull the trait out of "your" deer. If it is not purely genetic, but rather influenced by other factors, age, habitat, stress, injury, then one will probably not be able to shoot his way out of the trait either.

Hmmm, interesting theory, but way too many unknowns. How do you know which buck is dominant? What if the buck with the biggest horns is 3.5 and is also the dominant buck? What if the 3.5 year old with 110" horns isn't the dominant buck and what if he could put on another 20" from 3 to 4 making him a 130"? If you let him walk you might then have a 150" 4.5 and a 130" 4.5 year old. The only way to consistently kill good bucks is to hunt property that has a good number of good bucks. Mature deer are too hard to kill to put all your eggs in one basket by eliminating as many "inferior" 3.5 year olds as possible. I'd rather take my chances and likely hold a higher number of mature deer than try to manipulate middle age bucks with the intent of only holding mature bucks with the best genetics. I only see that working in a fenced area. All that being said, the original post was in regards to a 2.5 year old and IMO 99% of 2 year olds should walk.

I am discussing the scenario he presented. No doubt it is more complicated without knowing the particulars of how the trait is inherited. There is also no doubt that if it is a heritable trait, removing one animal expressing the gene will make a difference. It is the degree of difference that is in question.

I didn't ask for another opinion... I asked for scientific evidence supporting bucktrot's opinion that "killing younger (cull) bucks harms the herd".

If there is no science to support that opinion, then let's face that fact and accept it as speculation.

In a perfect "All knowing" world, yes... But how do you know without a shadow of a doubt that the buck you are "culling" is a genetically "inferior" deer, past injury, poor diet or another of the 100 factors that could cause the less than desired antler growth that year ? Imagine trying to get 20 guys in a lease to ALL agree to what a "Cull" buck is. I can GUARANTEE you that unless you had a lease full of Brian Murphy's, Brian Kinkel's, Steve Ditchkoff's or Grant Woods, its NOT gonna happen...

It's an odds game. If antler traits are a heritable trait, you can only do your selection based on expression of the traits.

If antler traits are not a heritable trait, why is the semen of a pen raised buck displaying huge antlers worth a pile of money?

Agree with this. There is no way to look at a buck one season and tell that he's a cull buck. You need at least two season's worth of data so that injury, drought, etc can be eliminated for a deer's poor rack one year.

Bottom line...I'd be willing to bet that 95% or more of what's shot as "cull bucks" should have never been shot under that premise of being a cull buck.

You answered your own question, it's an odds game... I've never seen a vile from a breeder buck that says guaranteed 300" buck in this specimen...

And the visual expression of a trait is the only thing you can go by to put the odds in your favor as much as is possible anyway.

Don't forget that many of those stressors...a drought for instance, would expose all the deer to the stress and not just an individual.

I don't believe in the whole cull buck thing for the most part because it isn't about antlers to me, but if it is a heritable trait, you can manipulate it.

Your saying sounds good, but no, it is not if you don't know why you get what you got.

Agreed Spoiler, I hunt private, owned property with limited pressure. Sometimes I loose sight of trying to manage a lease/club. When making post I need to try and remember, my management tactics will not work for everyone. I have hunted clubs in the past, trying to get more than 3-4 on the same page is tough.

I agree 100% attitude is everything. I have spent a lot of time watching certain bucks and notice that everyone is different, just like people. Some only rub certain tree types, some make heavy rublines, some rarly leave sign... etc. The ones that take over and area do so mainly with an aggressive attitude. In my own experience, the bucks that have the worst temperment, the ones that act like bullies, are usually ones that have less than desirable antlers.

Is antler development a heritable trait or not? And if not, why the high dollar price of semen from bucks with superior antlers?

Not only that, but research distributed by our biologists correlates increased B & C scores with superior fitness in other traits...

http://outdooralabama.com/hunting/hunterresources/articles/antlerdev.cfm

Good article in recent QDMA mag about what makes a dominate buck, attitude and body size. Age and antlers much less. They sawed the antlers off some of the bucks in pens. Good read.

Frankie, I think the deer looks to be atleast 4.5/5.5 in that last years pic. Maybe even older. Since he is displaying a good bit more antler in that last year pic and a little more toned body composition I suspect he is older and going down. It could be due to habitat stress, but the other bucks in the pic don't seem to be suffering. In this years pics he appears to have a sagging posture and lots of loose hide, signs of lost muscle (aging). I guess that it is possible that injury or disease could be causal, but my gut tells me that he is an older deer. I am also assuming that this deer is from the Tallassee area and I am very familiar with deer from that area. What is your take on the deers age?

I didn't say that it wasn't a heritable trait that couldn't be manipulated...or shouldn't be, for that matter. I simply stated that the average hunter can't judge a buck to be a "cull" in one year's worth of sightings. Too many other variables that could have affected that particular deer to be sure of it actually being a cull.

To what extent antlers are inherited (50/50 buck:doe or some other ratio?) is still an unknown according to the Readers Digest version of studies I have found. But what I meant by what I had written is without knowing what the DNA donors look like how do you know how big of an impact you are having by taking out the malformed buck? What if you got some does with riff-raff DNA running around on your property?

Also, you keep bringing up the breeder bucks, which made me wonder - why do they have "management" or lesser cost bucks inside high-fence operations? Shouldn't they have shot those genes out since they in theory have absolute control over the DNA inside the fence?

It would be interesting for a county or several contiguous counties to do a multi-year study where only spikes on one side or no brow bucks were killed to see what the outcome would be. Take the "bad" out and let the "good" racked bucks propagate their DNA and then see what the herd looks after several years.

They have management bucks because they haven't shot those genes out but they are working toward it as best they can.

It doesn't mater if it is inherited 50/50 or some other ratio. I'm not saying how big of an impact you will have...I am just saying that you will have an impact.

How did we breed hogs to be fatter when we didn't know the swine genome. We bred fat hogs to fat hogs. Maybe some of the fat hogs were fat because of better feed instead of genetics but over time the genetics still change. Later leaner hogs were more desirable and the trend went back the other way.

By killing deer with a certain heritable trait, you aren't eradicating the trait, you are reducing it's incidence.

one thing for sure the dead cull buck won't add to the problem .
a cull might pass his genes to 5 does in one YEAR , just to say . thats adding his genes to ten fawns .

to me it makes no sense to leave one in the herd ,,, a true cull !!!

That differs from your normal posts exactly how? Just kidding I ain't gonna touch this with a 20' pole - I predict someones going to end up having to post their resume before this is over

imo ,,,, his 3 1/2 maybe 4 1/2 ,, this year . 11/12 season

http://bamahunter.com/034.JPG
http://bamahunter.com/035.JPG

the post above of the older deer is about 5 1/2 or 6 1/2

first year he was a 8 point two years before that he was a 7 point . he added a point out front on the right side

i finished 10th made it half way through 11th grade with a GED some years later . that my resume ..... lol

Hey 49er.... if a high percentage of bucks are dead as a result of hunting (your mgmt style) in a given... say.... 3000 acres, and a large percentage of does come into estrus in about the same time frame, and if not bred, go out of estrus and back into estrus 28-30 days later and this cycle repeats itself, how long do you think the rut will last? Don't you think the LONG rutting period is detrimental to the bucks or what's left of them? How about the late-born fawn? Don't you think that the late-born fawn will have to endure a less-than-optimal browse availability so late in the summer and early fall?.... when the stress period is high? How about the doe? Don't you think she's going to suffer trying to keep up her health while at the same time trying to take care of one, two or possibly three fawns? I doubt three b/c that points to a healthy herd.

You know... it's not worth the argument to convince you 49er.

bucktrot,

That's all you got?

Maybe you should post your resume'. Tell us where you got your degree in hockeyology.

I don't always agree with 49er but I don't think there is anything wrong with being a thinking man and questioning what people tell you...even people that claim to be an expert.

Here, maybe this will spell out some "research" done on the King Ranch and other biologists... I'm pretty sure those guys at the King Ranch have quite a bit more experience dealing with this issue than most of us... The bottom line is, if you own your own land, do whatever you want. If you're in a lease, there is no way on God's green earth that I would be willing to turn 15-20 guys loose to "determine" a "Cull" buck. I personally know 2-3 people that I would trust to do that in a lease that I paid money to join.

http://www.ms-sportsman.com/details.php?id=306

What about the guys at Giles Island? They have experience too I guess. Also, the article says that the idea of a cull buck is a legitimate concept.

We aren't talking about someone making bad decisions. We are talking about if taking out a buck displaying a certain undesirable and heritable trait will change the incidence of the trait. Obviously it will.

You can argue this to death and what if this and what if that from now till the end of time. The guys at Giles Island are "culling" 125" deer, none of us will ever hunt places that you are doing that. Like I said, if it's your land, do what you want. But I have never been in or been a guest of a club that I would trust the whole membership to determine a "cull" buck and trying to change the genetic make up of a piece of property of free roaming deer, is impossible...

Yeah, 49er, that's all I have for you as it wouldn't matter how many studies I'd site, you would never believe anything that calls for hunter restraint. My issue with you isn't about culls. I support culling if it's done right and not an excuse to pull the trigger. From what I gather, you don't like any restraint on the killing of any buck of any age.

I gave up on you a long time ago, 49er. You're a consumer of wildlife and can't figure out these two words.... Limited Resource. You're the reason why we have game laws.

No disrespect 49er. I respect your right to have an opinion but not your right to kill at will.

You don't cite any studies because there aren't any to back up your speculation about "culling".

You aren't helping your credibility when you make such statements that you can't support with credible evidence. Instead of making false accusations about me (which is disrespectful, btw), why don't you try either looking for something to share with us that supports what you say or quit saying it?

*********************

My response - but I want to keep it short but there is so much to say about this subject.

Anyway, I'm going to cut-n-paste here but here's my philosophy taken from the QDMA website, to which I have been a member since 1994.

Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints. This approach typically involves the protection of young bucks (yearlings and some 2.5 year-olds) combined with an adequate harvest of female deer to maintain a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions and landowner desires. This level of deer management involves the production of quality deer (bucks, does, and fawns), quality habitat, quality hunting experiences, and, most importantly, quality hunters.

A successful QDM program requires an increased knowledge of deer biology and active participation in management. This level of involvement extends the role of the hunter from mere consumer to manager. The progression from education to understanding, and finally, to respect; bestows an ethical obligation upon the hunter to practice sound deer management. Consequently, to an increasing number of landowners and hunters, QDM is a desirable alternative to traditional management, which allows the harvest of any legal buck and few, if any, does.

In reading many post you've typed on aldeer.com 49er, you're against any restrictions/restraints/laws/management etc... when it comes to fish and game. Which leads me to ask... why don't you start a brand new thread and title it: "49er's philosophy on fish and game management." And, if you support laws regulating such, state your general foundation for fish and game laws.

Let me say this, I'm not a biologist. I'm also not a doctor, nor a builder, nor a farmer. HOWEVER, it's not hard to acquire a GREAT deal of knowledge on those subjects if you have the DESIRE and are willing to accept the general foundation/principles of a majority of educated practitioners in that field of study. So, armed through education, I can treat many of my own illnesses, maintain my own health, build a structure, take out a wall in my house and successfully plant my own garden and I don't mean just throwing seed in the ground but soil samples and having the best soil I can have for growing what I want!

With that said 49er, I accept what would be considered the general foundation and knowledge of hundreds of thousands of educated individuals in that field of study. But, I'm sure you'd ask your doctor for "studies" when he/she tells you that you need to have surgery to fix your broken leg with bone sticking out!!

So here's what I believe and have generally accepted as truth:

I do not "trophy" manage for deer. I "Quality" manage and there's a difference.
Immature bucks are very easy to kill, "IF THEY EXISTS and haven't already been killed."
I believe that a group of hunters on any given piece of property, without restraint, can kill a majority of the immature bucks on that property.
I believe that mature does in a given location, all come into estrus within the general timeframe. ***For the past two decades, studies conducted at UGA have attempted to unravel the mystery of how an estrous doe advertises her readiness to bucks in the area. Given that estrus or the �heat� period occurs only once per month and lasts only 24 to 36 hours.*** - Brian Murphy, Biologist and Director of the QDMA.
If there are not enough bucks to breed all the estrus does, the does go out of estrus and come back into estrus 28-30 days later. (I'm not wasting my time to quote a study on this and the fact that I'm saying it 49er, should spur you to research this statement if you disagree!)
This has been referred as the "second rut" and the aforementioned is repeated at least three times, maybe more but I am not sure what happens if a doe isn't bred! Found out and let me know 49er!
The 2nd/3rd estrus cycle adversely results in fawns being born later in the year thus forcing the mother and fawn to be exposed to less nutritious browse b/c as you know 49er, as the year goes along, browse starts to burn up as droughts occur and the plants' growing season plateaus. You do know 49er that a "growing" plant is more nutritious than a non-growing plant, right? No study to back here but again, research it if you don't believe me!

Let's talk about a lengthened rut and the stress it causes on the few bucks in your herd that are left. Which had your rather have. A condensed rut where most all does are bred on their first cycle and all does are bred on their 2nd cycle and the bucks can get back to eating and eating and maintain their health. OR... a long rutting process where bucks rut (bucks had rather go without eating than miss out of breeding. That's not hard to believe is it?) This long rutting process takes its toll on bucks for reasons I shouldn't have to quote.

Let's talk about the late-born fawns as a result of does being bred 30, 60 and 90 days after their first estrus cycle! Poor nutrition and stress on both mother and fawns. I'd rather have my fawns be born as early as possible (gestation period approx 200 days) than during the absolute stress period when browse is burned up and the acorns haven't dropped yet (if there's an acorn crop). These late born fawns have to play "catch up" and let's say the fawn is a buck... he'll go into the spring green-up with a lower body weight and will be behind his counterpart who may have been born much earlier and gotten the jump on him b/c of obvious reasons I should not have to point out, 49er.

I wonder what a really late-born fawn buck will look like and what kind of antlers he'll have his second fall. Afterall, he entered the spring way under weight and smaller than his buddy who was born two/three months before him! Would he be considered a "cull" to some people? It is believed that the late-born fawn does, eventually, catch up but wouldn't you want to alleviate late-born fawns altogether?!?!?

Spoiler had a great example of the age structure of bucks... Graduating seniors of high school always have a recruitment of juniors that will take their place when the seniors "graduate".

I can tell you this and you don't need a study.... immature bucks are very easy to kill. (Again, but only if they exists!!!!) Mature bucks are very hard to kill and the only way to increase your chances would be to have more of them!!

A sex balanced deer herd is important. Nature already slants it in favor of bucks as, if I remember that study I can't quote, bucks make up 51% of fawns. There are other studies that support the greater mortality of bucks and no, I can't quote them but conventional wisdom would support that belief.

Here's the difference in you and me 49er. I am more concerned with my deer herd's health and well-being more than my desire to pull the trigger. But I know this.... when I have a healthy deer herd and a sex-balanced deer herd with acceptable age structures of bucks, I know my hunting experiences will increase and I don't have to kill a buck to enjoy a day in the field.

Deer hunting is kinda like being married and being unselfish. If you both give, give, give to each other instead of always wanting to take, take, take.... what you get out of it by "giving" far outweighs what you'd "take" in the first place.

But here's the guarantee.... Mother Nature always holds up her end of the bargain whereas your marriage partner may not!

Give me some good information that supports placing restrictions on killing bucks in an attempt to create a "balanced age structure" as opposed to "culling" in an attempt to improve the genetics of the remaining deer.

Let's discuss both the benefits and the "harm" that results from each of the practices.

If we need to discuss it in another thread, that's fine.

I'm not a fan of "culling" but I guess it has its place. In Trophy Deer Mgmt, which I don't practice b/c I don't have the money, time or land ownership, culling is a part of the plan.

In Quality Deer Mgmt, culling is less important and my focus is more on a healthy deer herd and the killing of mature bucks.

Let me ask you this: How hard is it to kill a 1.5 yr old buck? I have to footnote this... "If he exists."

What are your thoughts on does and estrus cycles?

Gestation periods?

Thoughts on the peak and valley regarding browse. I.E. Green-up to dormancy?

What happens to a deer herd which is unbalanced heavily toward does?

Let's go from there.

Let's take it to another thread.

I'll start it off with the title: "Discussion of Options"

LOL!! Oh, heavens!! Here we go!

"Hey Baby!!! I may be a while!! I know, I know... there are tons of things to do around the house and this is my first weekend home. I'm sorry!!! OK... I will get to it soon!!!"

49er, I really don't have time for this!!!

I understand. Life must go on.

I've got time restrictions on my posting, so it would eat up too much of my time trying to have a decent discussion anyhow.

Take care,
Eddie

OK... I'm leaving town soon and have a butt load of things to do around the house.

Hey, we can agree to disagree and forgive me if I sometimes may sound sarcastic, which I don't mean to be.

I'll be out from Aldeer for a while.

Hope your season was a success, Eddie.

I actually asked this question on another board. It was more geared toward the harvesting of spikes because I stumbled over this research done in Texas.
Deer Study

I don't have a problem with culling... if it's actually legitimate. However, to use a term from many biologists, you need to first, plug the lowest hole in the bucket and in my opinion, culling isn't he lowest hole!!

Yes, culling takes place on a lot of game ranches but I believe those deer mgrs have addressed or are addressing all the other issues of deer mgmt by the time they start talking about culling.

I think there is some truth to the fact that a "late-born buck fawn" has some catching up to do and may only be able to push out spikes when he's 1 yr old. I would like some biologists to chime in on their thoughts.

Also, every buck here in Alabama ain't going to be a 150" 5.5 yr old. I'm very happy with a mature 125" 8 pt but heck yes, I would love to grow much larger bucks but I hunt leased land with other hunters and it's just really really hard to get everybody on the same page including your neighbors. I want to remain realistic but if there are some guys out there that need a hunting member willing to pass up a 3.5 yr old 125-130", I'd love that but you'd need a considerable amount of land and some very educated, patient hunters hunting "quality" land or with deep pockets for some major habitat enhancement!

I think if you really want to peel back the onion and shoot spikes, then you would first need to do fetal research studies to find out exactly when does are bred and what percentage are bred on their first cycle and second cycle, etc... Are these spike bucks a result of late born buck fawns getting a late start? Not just a "late start" but a late start topped with lower nutrition than the fawns born 30-90 days earlier!

Also, filling out hunter observation forms after each hunt with pertinent useable data; when do you stop seeing spotted fawns?, weighing harvested deer, pulling jawbones, keeping detailed records, taking soil samples.

Get your sex ratio as balanced as possible and see if that makes a difference and the mass shooting of 2.5 yr old bucks and younger will have to stop.

Sigh... so many other holes in the bucket that are lower to plug up.

In way too many places, high grading has taken place. Clubs may tout: "We're 8 pts or better!" Well, that's a start but in my opinion, the wrong start! Usually, a 2 1/2 yr old eight point walks out into a food plot... the kind of 2 1/2 you WANT to protect and the hunter looks at the buck's antlers and counts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, BOOM!!!! And down goes a 2 1/2 yr old pretty basket racked, "very dumb deer by the way", 8 pt. Standing beside the young 8 pt is a 4.5 yr old or older, very nice 6 or 7 pt and that bucks runs off... to breed.

I don't know what the answer is but aging deer on the hoof should be required of members by hunting clubs that want to manage. It takes a lot of practice and I'm not great at it myself but if I see a pencil-neck, 12" 8 pt walk out, I am not killing it. A first-time-hunter can, but I won't.

Talking about high-grading.... that has been practiced for many years on a lot of acres and it would be my opinion that it has negatively affected bucks' antlers.

Not sure you understood what I was saying. If your working in a high fenced area then dominant bucks cant run other bucks off your property so my theory doesn't matter. In Alabama you are going to see bucks that are 3+ yrs old that you know will never be high scoring bucks. I say cull those bucks out not because of any genetic traits they may pass down but because they will inevitably run off other bucks that could have the potential to grow larger racks. Everytime you harvest a mature buck a void is left that will eventually be filled by another buck. So in essence why would you allow a buck to occupy territory on your property if he is not of the caliber that you consider a trophy? I do agree that culling should only be done on bucks at least three years of age and even then only the bucks that your fairly certain dont have the potential they need. Of course you must first be certain that you have given them the nutritional foundation needed to fully express their genetic potential.

How long do you believe the general timeframe is during which the mature does come into estrus?

According to research (as quoted on the AL DNR website) higher Boone and Crockett scores are associated with greater genetic fitness such as a stronger immune system. Since you claim that you are most concerned about the deer herd's health, are you allowing the mature deer with the highest boone and crockett scores to walk on your property while taking those with the lowest scores? Since the antlers of higher scoring bucks are an outward exhibition of the genetic fitness of the buck, it would be best for the health of the herd to leave those higher scoring deer to pass on their superior genes.

Are you really most concerned about the health of the herd?

ok yall getting deeper in than i go . to me a buck got to pretty messed up (on both sides )to be a cull .

jlccoffee, I bow hunt and I didn't pick up a rifle all season and I shoot mature bucks and I'm indiscriminate on does. If the buck is a mature five point, I'll probably whack him. You're trying to paint me into a corner of being a "trophy" hunter, which, yes, I love killing big mature bucks with high scoring antlers, like most hunters but I practice QDM.

So to answer your senseless and ulterior question jlccoffee, my target is mature bucks no matter what size antlers he has but I'd rather shoot a high scoring racked buck no doubt. But I'm a bow hunter so I don't think I'm a threat to wiping out my herd's healthiest bucks.

Don't question my sincerity on being concerned about herd health and you can practice the killing of any age/size buck you want as long as you stay within the laws of this state.

Your analogy would be like saying if you love your kids, you would not whip them.

You are like everyone else. It has noting to do with whipping your children. It has to do with you hunt in a certain way that makes you happy. You use the excuse of "doing it for the deer herd" in order to try to force others to hunt in the same way.

It your were truly doing what is best for the deer herd...you would let those superior bucks go.

I'm still wondering how long you think the time period is during which the mature does come into estrus?

Jlccoffee, I am not trying to force you, or anyone else, to do anything. I practice QDM in the way the QDMA would practice it. If you don't like how I practice deer mgmt then you don't like how thousands of hunters and a majority of states practice deer mgmt.

Make sure to not move or hunt in such states as Kentucky as they're much, much more restrictive than AL!

When someone such as 49er attempts to discredit QDM and what thousands of biologists nationwide, institutions of higher learning, etc... have compiled, I am going to speak up as this is a discussional site.

In the end, I support conservation and doing what is best for wildlife and when I do that, I and maybe YOU, or somebody is rewarded, including the deer.

Do you know the difference in conservation and wildlife management? We don't have an Alabama Department of Wildlife Management. When you advocate mandatory rules to implement wildlife management, you certainly are trying to tell other people to conform to your preferences. Qdm in it's original form started out with principles advocating voluntary participation. Then the QDMA was formed and it's members started pushing for mandatory wildlife management regulations throughout the states. I was a member of QDMA until they started that crap. That's when I told them to take me off their membership rolls.

There were very few deer left in Alabama when the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources was formed and delegated authority to conserve, protect and increase wildlife. Wildlife management authority was delegated to the commissioner only on properly designated wildlife management areas.

For someone who doesn't have time to furnish supporting evidence for the statements you make, you sure have had time to be posting a lot of other stuff.

Edit: I see you went back and changed your posts after you agreed to disagree.


There's no other way to describe that than calling it the lie that it is. Slander does nothing for your credibility.

I have consistently supported our game and fish laws that were written by our legislature for the purpose of wildlife conservation. Those laws do not authorize mandatory wildlife management on privately owned and leased lands.

I think what 49'er might be getting at is that you are blindly following QDM as espoused by the QDMA and other such organizations. They are making money off of people interested in their concepts so there is a potential for bias. 49er is simply asking to see the research that backs what you and they are saying, not articles from the popular press. So far, you have not provided much if any.

If those biologists are following scientific principles, then there are peer reviewed articles out there for 49'er and others to see. Where are they?

Like your example with the doctor. Do you want your Dr. to set that broken bone if the research says the outcome is more likely desirable if your particular break is simple splinted? You don't want a Dr. doing what he thinks is best...you want him to do what has been proven IS best.

Don't forget, many biologists also used to tell us not to shoot does. Many also used to tell us coyotes don't take many fawns. Now some research has been done (and you can find articles such as the Fort Rucker study) and at least in that case, they were taking a lot of fawns.

Still haven't heard about that time frame during which the mature does come into estrus?

[quote=Bucktrot]Jlccoffee,
When someone such as 49er attempts to discredit QDM and what thousands of biologists nationwide, institutions of higher learning, etc... have compiled, I am going to speak up as this is a discussional site.

quote]

Where is this research compiled? So far you have only said what QDMA says...you haven't showed a single scrap of research to back it up.

He only has time to slander me and repeat what Brian Murhphy says. He doesn't have time to see if he is actually understanding Brian's theories correctly or if Brian's opinions are supported by scientific research.

I was there when Brian started QDMA branches in Alabama. I know what he advocates, and I chose not to be a part of his movement when he started pushing for mandatory participation. Now bucktrot wants to make me be a part of it anyhow by using unauthorized rules of the CAB to make me.

in captivity that is possible, in the wild not so much

pen deer are becoming more and more streamlined genetically, breeder does are considered top priority in breeding programs, does contribute MORE genetically than bucks
some bucks never produce offspring that even come close to their own antlers (30-30 comes to mind) while others produce much better than their own antlers

so until we can figure out those wild cull does, guess we're screwed


There are studies out there that prove this and QDMA had published some in their Magazine.

1 very wealthy landowner in particular, had 2 rather large parcels of land, 1 under fence in TX and 1 parcel free range in the midwest. After 10 years of exhaustive culling, the deer herd still produced so called cull bucks.

Certain areas I'd bet produce more so called culls than other areas, maybe 1 day scientist will figure it out. Probably has something to do with soil.

The King Ranch still has cull bucks, those big operations callem culls for some strange reason, those culls are the financial backbone of those large ranches.

QDMA does have many reputable Biologist, it's you that does not wish to agree and that is perfectly fine, but using your argument, stick to the facts, we here do NOT have the ability to change what you want changed.

I personally promoted buck limits, called who I needed etc... it's your right to promote a liberal buck season, go and express yourself at the CAB meetings.