Do you know the difference in conservation and wildlife management? We don't have an Alabama Department of Wildlife Management. When you advocate mandatory rules to implement wildlife management, you certainly are trying to tell other people to conform to your preferences. Qdm in it's original form started out with principles advocating voluntary participation. Then the QDMA was formed and it's members started pushing for mandatory wildlife management regulations throughout the states. I was a member of QDMA until they started that crap. That's when I told them to take me off their membership rolls.

There were very few deer left in Alabama when the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources was formed and delegated authority to conserve, protect and increase wildlife. Wildlife management authority was delegated to the commissioner only on properly designated wildlife management areas.

For someone who doesn't have time to furnish supporting evidence for the statements you make, you sure have had time to be posting a lot of other stuff.

Edit: I see you went back and changed your posts after you agreed to disagree.


There's no other way to describe that than calling it the lie that it is. Slander does nothing for your credibility.

I have consistently supported our game and fish laws that were written by our legislature for the purpose of wildlife conservation. Those laws do not authorize mandatory wildlife management on privately owned and leased lands.

I think what 49'er might be getting at is that you are blindly following QDM as espoused by the QDMA and other such organizations. They are making money off of people interested in their concepts so there is a potential for bias. 49er is simply asking to see the research that backs what you and they are saying, not articles from the popular press. So far, you have not provided much if any.

If those biologists are following scientific principles, then there are peer reviewed articles out there for 49'er and others to see. Where are they?

Like your example with the doctor. Do you want your Dr. to set that broken bone if the research says the outcome is more likely desirable if your particular break is simple splinted? You don't want a Dr. doing what he thinks is best...you want him to do what has been proven IS best.

Don't forget, many biologists also used to tell us not to shoot does. Many also used to tell us coyotes don't take many fawns. Now some research has been done (and you can find articles such as the Fort Rucker study) and at least in that case, they were taking a lot of fawns.

Still haven't heard about that time frame during which the mature does come into estrus?

[quote=Bucktrot]Jlccoffee,
When someone such as 49er attempts to discredit QDM and what thousands of biologists nationwide, institutions of higher learning, etc... have compiled, I am going to speak up as this is a discussional site.

quote]

Where is this research compiled? So far you have only said what QDMA says...you haven't showed a single scrap of research to back it up.

He only has time to slander me and repeat what Brian Murhphy says. He doesn't have time to see if he is actually understanding Brian's theories correctly or if Brian's opinions are supported by scientific research.

I was there when Brian started QDMA branches in Alabama. I know what he advocates, and I chose not to be a part of his movement when he started pushing for mandatory participation. Now bucktrot wants to make me be a part of it anyhow by using unauthorized rules of the CAB to make me.

in captivity that is possible, in the wild not so much

pen deer are becoming more and more streamlined genetically, breeder does are considered top priority in breeding programs, does contribute MORE genetically than bucks
some bucks never produce offspring that even come close to their own antlers (30-30 comes to mind) while others produce much better than their own antlers

so until we can figure out those wild cull does, guess we're screwed


There are studies out there that prove this and QDMA had published some in their Magazine.

1 very wealthy landowner in particular, had 2 rather large parcels of land, 1 under fence in TX and 1 parcel free range in the midwest. After 10 years of exhaustive culling, the deer herd still produced so called cull bucks.

Certain areas I'd bet produce more so called culls than other areas, maybe 1 day scientist will figure it out. Probably has something to do with soil.

The King Ranch still has cull bucks, those big operations callem culls for some strange reason, those culls are the financial backbone of those large ranches.

QDMA does have many reputable Biologist, it's you that does not wish to agree and that is perfectly fine, but using your argument, stick to the facts, we here do NOT have the ability to change what you want changed.

I personally promoted buck limits, called who I needed etc... it's your right to promote a liberal buck season, go and express yourself at the CAB meetings.

The NWTF, DU, Pheasants Forever, Quail Unlimited etc... ALL have biased opinions as well as joe hunters.
QDMA took QDM and expanded upon it, yea they made money, it's the American way. Just like in your line of work, new things come to light and change previous well founded principles.

I remember Biologist and GWs against shooting does and the yote issue as well, that thinking was old school and came right out of Montgomery. Evidently things came to light.

Time frame for does coming into estrus??? what is meant by that question.

kinda loaded question there and probably depends more on which white tail sub species, a generalization would be once they reach maturity and then every 28 days til bred

carterjv,


I don't care to address a committee of the executive branch composed of hand picked members who have their minds made up before I get there. All my attempts to meet with the members who represent my district (Dobbs and Moultrie) have been unscuccessful. My contacts to the governor's office have been referred to the Commissioner's office. The Commissioner now refers my questions to the Department's attorney William Gunter.

I prefer to address our legislators who have allowed this group to assume legislative functions in spite of our constitutional provisions against it.

Constitution of Alabama 1901

(emphasis added)

We are seeing the results of a body of the governor's appointees being given the power to write rules that have the effect of law and then enforce their own rules. Then they act beyond their delegated authority and make up whatever rules they desire. That's a violation of the principle of "separation of powers" found in our constitutions and our legislators need to put a stop to it.

The AAPA was was written to provide legislative oversight of theses groups and then the DCNR was even excluded from it in matters related to seasons and bag and creel limits. That resulted in a clear violation of our state's constitution.

The only place the DCNR is authorized to implement wildlife management rules is found in Section 9-11-300 of the Code of Alabama that applies to wildlife management areas controlled by the state. If you don't think I have been in contact with our legislators, ask you representative if they have heard from me on this matter.

Here's you a link to an opinion I submitted to the Tuscaloosa News to read as well:
Opinion in Tuscaloosa News

Bucktrot,

I believe that you are a responsible, and well-meaning person.

But, your statement:



Is WAAYYYY off base!!!!!

The 'Limited Resource' that YOU are talking about is trophy bucks.....not deer.

The concept of QDM REDUCES the deer herd, i.e. 'consumes' it, so that the animals left become 'larger'. The more you kill, the more limited the resources.

You, along with many other well-meaning people, are spending way too much time worrying about the BUCK segment only of the population. And I honestly don't even think you realize it!!!

Thanks Danny.

You put it in terms that are simple, truthful and to the point.

Good post.

you nailed it, however the debate many have is carrying capacity and what that exactly entails , that too is a variable

hunters seem to think as everything being finite, it's not, nature is very fluid

Years of a plentiful deer food sources, the year following will produce more deer then predators the following year, nature cycles.

In WI the Grouse cycle on a 8 yr population boom, birds tend to be in the 8 year range, not sure about deer but I'd guess very similar cycles for whatever reason.

Waterloo's deer population is on the lower side of things right now, EHD breakouts have come more frequent of recent plus fetal census combined with poor crop production over the last few years has knocked them back.

No sweat though, deer rebound rather quickly and that process also for some reason produces bigger bucks, another bonus. Healthy deer and bigger bucks.

Thanks Hogwild, I am a responsible and well-meaning person.

If someone were to go back over the last 10 years or so of my postings here on aldeer, they would see that I am more interested in "mature" bucks and have explained the difference b/w QDM and TDM (trophy deer mgmt).

When a non-restrictive or non-selective hunter wants to discredit another hunter for his support of QDM and responsible deer harvest, the QDM hunter gets labeled as only interested in "Trophy" bucks.

I am just interested in "responsible" harvest of all wildlife.

This means killing does "if you need to" based on responsible data collection and the same goes for bucks.

Yes, I am well aware of yotes and predation and hunter observation and data collection could play a role in deer harvest and I realize locations differ.

If you would like to shoot some immature bucks off your property, by all means, do it. However, these immature bucks, if they exists, are easy to kill and you risk having an unbalanced sex ratio if you kill too many immature bucks and don't kill any does.

I support a balanced sex ratio with a balanced age structure and a "to capacity" deer herd.

I have the desire to be the best game mgr I can be, and I have the desire to seek out the best available information and that is what I practice in deer mgt AND I HAVE NEVER claimed to practiced TDM. I would jump up and down with joy with a 5.5 yr old 5 pt or a mature doe.

That's what I practice and I guess the bottom line which some hunters don't like is the restrictive "quantity" killing of bucks.

I am proud to say that if you want unrestricted deer harvest, you will need to convince thousands of hunters and many states.

I support QDM, and I am not alone.

I, as well, believe in the principles of QDM.

BUT, I also have common sense and realize that a 10 to 1 ratio of does to bucks coming in at the Processors for years now has had a detrimental effect on the reproductive capacity of the deer herd in MY area. When you further complicate that with the effects of coyote predation.....you are setting yourself up for failure.

And, in all honesty, if you are simply ONLY interested in mature animals, and feel compelled to drop the term immature often when discussing harvests, why does it matter how MANY there are in the population.....only the age, right??

I don't want to get into an argument with someone whose opinion and intelligence I respect. But, I think you are missing the BIG picture here in YOUR quest for 'mature' deer!

Hogwild, why do you think I disagree with you? I have never advocated the blind, mass killing of does!!! Based on the best available measurable data, and sometimes that isn't much, manage your deer herd with the deer herd in mind.

I can't understand how an educated hunter can support the unlimited, unrestrictive killing of immature bucks w/o consideration of what effects it has on the herd.

Do I object to a hunter shooting a young buck? ABSOLUTELY not! Do I object to that same hunter killing several young bucks per year and on top of that, bragging ab it? Yes. But only bc of what I know (based on the best available data, which is public knowledge) happens to a deer herd when there is an unbalanced sex ratio.

I understand that there severall scenarios and geographical differences.

Responsible game mgmt...that's what I support. I am open to listen to anyone. I just know that if you want to know ab a topic, go to the leaders in that particular topic and the QDMA is that. I also listen to Chris Cook w the state of Al. I am not saying that I blindly follow the QDMA. I have seeked out whitetail biologists and read and listened to what they say.

If you don't think that you need to kill does on your property, who am I to argue with you?

Thanks for listening. Gotta go.

That I think is where we differ. Don't listen to what a biologist says...ask him to show you the data.

If they do not have data and peer reviewed scientific references, it is just another opinion. An educated opinion maybe, but opinion none-the-less.

What effect is the lack of mature does having on the herd's balance?

Have any of the hard-core QDm'ers considered the consequences of having the vast majority of the DOE segment of the herd made up of immature females. From widely varying estrous cycles due to birth date, to lower conception rates, to lack of experience rearing fawns and dealing with predators, to ill-established pecking orders.....ALL which cause LOWER FAWN RECRUITMENT!!!!

If you have never considered these factors while considering harvest strategy....BUT, you do promote trying to harvest mature bucks......you need to wonder if 'Herd Health' is really your primary concern!!!

BTW, not directed at ANY one individual.......but, instead, a large collective group!

I wonder if fawns from younger does have lower birthweights?

most people I know that shoot does don't discriminate. I/ they kill does regardless of age as long as there is a need to kill does. I would agree that killing only mature does or only yearling does is a bad idea for the reasons you suggested. We killed 11 does this year. 2 were yearlings, 5 were 2.5-3.5 and 4 were mature.

I am in PA right now so I don't hv much time. My claim that I get excited ab shooting a 5.5 yr old 5 pt or a "mature" doe was basically saying that killing a "mature" buck OR a "mature" doe is not that easy (I bow hunt). I am excited when I can run a broad head through a mature doe... But any doe will do if I am after does.

"If" I need to kill does, I do not discriminate on age. And if a population is WAY overpopulated with does, I don't care what age the doe is.

I should have clarified that.