I guess a friend of mine is full of crap then, cause he hunts just south of Montgomery and has seen several mature bucks chasing does hard over the past 2 weeks.

Hearing/ seeing a huge increase in domestic/ stray dogs barking and running deer is a great indicator that the rut has started. Someone told me this several years ago and since then I've noticed it. I remembered that at some point every year I would see dogs running deer but never put two and two together that it was always in late Dec. and January when this occurred. Since then, it's never failed. Once the rut kicks in we typically hear or see a dog or dogs chasing deer and start getting pics of dogs over at scrapes.

Pass_the_Buck, I agree with you. Here is a random goggle map of lower Alabama.

probably too many, thats alot of food plots right there!

This is for truedouble. I got in the stand on Dec 29th. I killed first coyote at 7:08am. Then at 7:38M I heard what I thought was a buck chasing a doe towards me. Turns out it was a coyote chasing a buck towards me, a three point and he was right on his heels. In our part of the state coyotes a a big problem, killing fawns, turkeys, calves and and yearling deer. This is not the first time I have seen this happen. After seeing two or three coyotes working toghter after a yearling size deer a fawn would not have a chance. As far as the doe numbers go I know they are way down in our area. I have been out at least 12+ times this season and never hear asingle shot fired in the afternoon. I have hunted many more times than this and have heard just a , two or three, on several morning or afternoon hunts. Either hunters are not seeing deer, not seeing what they want to shoot or not hunting as much as in the past. That has not happened around our place since the dog season has been cut out. After the dog season was cut out for years you would go out and and hear 20-30 shots EVERY afternoon! I know of a guy and his hunting buddies that hunt on around 400 acres. He was talking to me about not seeing any deer at all, hardly, the last couple of years, esp this year. I pointed out the fact that he and his buddies killed them all over the last five years. That was about the time they really started killing the does. That first year they killed 70+, the second year 40+, the third year 20+ the last two around 6!!! You think they were killing to many does?

Topcat--You don't think maybe they just told you that they killed 110 does on 400 acres in 2 years? I honestly don't see how that is possible.

Just how many people are hunting this 400 acres???

topcatt, you know way more about your area than I do but assuming there are few does based on number of gun shots heard in the afternoon is a little ridiculous. There may not be many does, but that should be determined by something a little more accurate than number of gun shots heard. Way too many variables there. Fewer hunters, more hunters being more selective and not shooting does they see, mild temperatures, a lot of browse, full moon, nocturnal movement, etc., etc. Personally I would create some bait stations and put out a camera right after the season or even during the summer to get a more accurate count of does but that's just me. We've had our share of bad weekends but when foodplots are eaten pretty good and there are tracks everywhere and you were getting pics of plenty of does then regardless of what I see I know the does are there.

All that being said, yes killing 70 does on 400 acres seems very excessive and pretty much impossible but not saying it can't be done. IF they killed 70 does, then I would bet there would be 70 more does from surrounding properties that would move in over the following year or two, cause if there are no deer then there would be a lot of food. you can't wipe out a deer herd hunting only 400 acres. My guess is one, they didn't kill half as many as they say but more importantly the deer have become 99% nocturnal. Now if you put out cameras over corn and didn't get any pics over a week or so you might have something to actually worry about but my guess is you would see plenty of deer eating corn at night.

As for the yotes. You could be right, I just gave my personal observation of 3 yotes and 5 deer all in the same field one morning. Definitely not enough info. to make a definite conclusion but still pretty good indication that deer, where I hunt, don't seem to be very concerned with yotes. We also have cows on our property and haven't had a calf killed in over 5 years. We have a ton of rabbits so maybe that's what the yotes don't appear to be killing our deer...don't know for sure but still kill them when I can.

Not to nit pick, but that aerial photo looks like gas wells instead of food plots. It also looks like way too much topography change for anywhere in lower Alabama. But I think your point is that our deer get too much pressure, which I can't argue against.

As for 110 does in 2 years on 400 acres. It sounds to me like the state should have allowed 3 does a day there. Seriously, what is the carrying capacity on 400 acres of the best habitat money can buy?

longspur69 those are food plots in an area I hunted as a guest a few years back.

First off, Gotcha 1, you need to count a little better, it was over five years that this took place not two. As for the total # of people hunting this property including kids ( that like to shot) it was about ten total, 10 hunters X 7 deer each = 70 deer the first year, with fewer and fewer deer each year after that. That is not that hard for me to believe at all. Back a few years ago when I put in more time than I do now I could have killed three times that many does alone. I would usually pass up from 15-20 yung bucks a year. Yes I do believe they killed this many. They had not been killing any does and then they bought into the idea they needed to shoot plenty, and plenty it was. I have hunted this area all my life and have been in a hunting club in the area for 26 years now. I know the guys. It was all on private property that this took place. As I said this all sarted five years ago. At that time it was not uncommon for a buddy and I to go bowhunting for one morning and between us see 20 or more deer. That number as been goig down for the last five years. This year two of us hunted hard for three days and never saw a deer. We were hunting in places that should have produced deer sighting. I know this year was differnet due to the mass amount of acorns on the ground. What I was trying to get across is that I do believe the number of does/deer are down in our area. I also run from 4-6 trail cams on this property from Sept-Feb and have not gotten the number of deer as in the past. I have gotten about as many young bucks as does. As far as the amount of shooting going on I was just stating that to make the point that there are either fewer deer being seen or there are fewer people hunting. Also as stated before I have been hunting this area all my life and know most of the folks that hunt around our club. There is approx 10,000 acreas of hunting clubs in our area plus private land on top of that. I am just going by what I have seen and heard from other hunters.

70+ first year. 40+ second year. 70+40= 110 deer as I see it. I may be missing something.

You're right that all those things can cause fewer deer sightings. What concerns me MUCH more than the number of deer that I've seen, is the number of deer I have on camera. I have 2 cameras running on our farm. I have one on a trail to a food plot. I've had very few pictures on it. The other camera I stuck back in the deep woods, very close to a prime bedding area. I put it on an old trail that's been used for years. It leads to an oak bottom. I put the camera out in mid December IIRC and was planning on leaving it until the season was over. I pulled it yesterday. It's been in the woods for over a month and had 12 pictures on it. 6 of them were of me, 3 when I put it out and 3 when I picked it up. The other 6 pictures were of nothing. Maybe the wind blowing. There was not a single deer picture. This trail has been a well used deer trail since deer were first stocked here 25 years ago. That concerns me a bunch.

All of the above is why you do not manage a deer herd off of hunter observations only but also usage cages in food plots, harvest data and camera surveys. When you bring them all together you can make sound management decisions.

Hopefuly when people are calling for reduced doe harvest they are not using one year as the reason. I know I am not.

Neither am I.

Fur, I have kept up with this thread and decided I would just add my two cents. No matter what people believe, North Alabama deer numbers are decreasing. I haven't hunted the southern part of the state in several years, so I can't offer input on that area. I think there are too many deer riding in the back of pickup trucks to not be a contributing factor. The excessive doe harvest and predation by coyotes are taking a major toll on the deer. I hope your presentation goes well. I am on your side of this fence! Teacher.

I agree with your concerns regarding trail camera pictures. We've had only seven bucks show up on our cameras, four of which were 2.5 yo and the others no more than 4.5, I estimate. But, we've seen 12 unique does on camera since August and we usually see a half dozen or so deer in fields in the afternoons. It's a very complex situation. I don't quite know what to make of it. Maybe if I didn't live two hrs from our farm I could get more consistent data and study it a little more.

Wow, sounds to me like killing all those does balanced your herd. I wouldn't be complaining about getting pictures of equal numbers of bucks and does. Isn't that the goal? If it's true that this place killed 70 deer in one year off 400 acres, then it had WAY too many deer. As for not seeing 20 deer every time you hunt, welcome to the real world and most likely better hunting if your major concern is a more intense rut and better bucks. In my opinion the area of the state I hunt in is as good or better than anywhere and we average seeing 2-3 deer per hunt. I'm glad we don't see 20 deer on an average day. Just my opinion.

We DEFINITELY need to do that, along with taking care of a LOT of coyotes...

What about the areas/Lands/Clubs in the State that had a good buck:doe ratio BEFORE the massive reduction in the herd????

Do you guys that are just now starting to see Rut activities in January think this is something 'new'???????

I love the way somebody can hunt one small area and then be able to make a blanket statement about the entire State!!!!

Also, do people really think that since they can now see pics of 15-20 really big deer from ALL OVER the State on the internet that there were none being killed BEFORE the internet???? I would wager a guess that there are LESS killed now than years past......they are just more visible due to electronic media and increased love of 'horn porn'.