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Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2552924
08/15/18 06:13 PM
08/15/18 06:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,175
South Alabama
gobbler Offline
12 point
gobbler  Offline
12 point
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,175
South Alabama

This is the kind of letters the CAB is getting from somewhere. We should voice our concerns to the CAB AND the Commissioner similarly and accordingly.

Alabama Conservation Advisory Board,
2018, marks the forty first year (41st) of my turkey hunting career in Alabama, where I hold a Lifetime Hunting License. During an average year I will turkey hunt forty (40) days, in Alabama. The majority of my Alabama turkey hunting career has been spent guiding turkey hunters. I spent sixteen (16) years as a Turkey Guide, for White Oak Plantation in Tuskegee, AL, where I guided hunters, outdoor writers, industry personnel, and a most of the NWTF Executives of that era. I hunted with Dr. James Earl Kennamer many years, but always took time to talk about turkeys every time he was at White Oak Plantation. Currently, I average hunting between 10-12 Alabama Counties, helping others and teaching them lessons I have learned.

Both my exposure and success as a guide have afforded me many opportunities and insights, shared by very few turkey hunters in Alabama. One such opportunity, was to sit with Lovett E. Williams, Jr. (Wildlife Biologist), during a panel discussion and interview for Turkey and Turkey Hunting Magazine. History will show Lovett Williams knew more about the Wild Turkey than anyone else. One of his assertions was, “it takes five thousand (5,000) turkey eggs to produce one (1) five-year old gobbler”. Lovett told me his assertion took the following factors into account, sterile eggs, nest predation, poult predation, deaths resulting from weather hazards, and hunter harvest.

As a turkey hunting guide, I averaged harvesting or helping others harvest nineteen (19) turkeys each year. The most I have ever been a part of harvesting in a single Alabama Spring Season was twenty-six (26), and I typically see nine (9) harvested by April 1 each year. I have either harvested or helped others harvest turkeys in Alabama, every day between March 15, and April 30, but the single day I have seen more birds harvested than any other is April 6. I attribute the success of April 6 to weather, photo period, and breeding cycle, which all generate the typical turkey behavior everyone talks about.

I am keenly aware of site specifics such as, habitat, nest and bird predation, and hunting pressure all have on turkeys and ultimately hunter success. I am also aware of an increase in an early season tactic called “Reaping” where a hunter takes a full fan and starts crawling forward toward a gobbler. This tactic triggers a fighting response which is typical behavior for a gobbler, and typically occurs prior to the breeding cycle. Additionally, there are a growing number of license holders who like to hunt turkeys, but are not turkey hunters. Those individuals typically rely on deer season patterns of turkeys and will go sit on a food plot with a decoy positioned in gun range, and wait. They sit waiting on a gobbler to approach the decoy so they can kill the gobbler. These individuals are utilizing food plots because the grass height is still short enough for birds to utilize the plot all day. Turkeys will remain in a winter pattern until the hens start migrating towards nesting and brood rearing habitat. So, I ask you why are these individuals having success. I submit the reason is due to the timing occurring prior to the hens being bred.

With the Alabama Spring Turkey Season opening every year on March 15, and the crazy weather patterns I have monitored for 41 years prior to April 1, I am convinced Alabama turkey hunters are harvesting gobblers before they have a chance to breed the majority of hens (5,000 to 1). Both Dr. James Earl Kennamer and Lovett Williams told me many years ago, breeding is triggered by photo period and temperature.

I am recommending the Conservation Advisory Board adjust the Alabama Spring Turkey Season opening day from March 15 every year, to the third (3rd) Saturday in March every year and run forty-seven (47) days from that date. The earliest opening date would be March 15, and the latest opening date would be March 21. Adjusting the opening date would allow your Annual Renewal License holders, and Non-Resident License holders, to hunt the first two days of the season every year. Another benefit is, commercial lodges will always be able to set their first full hunt, for what is typically their best customers. Additionally, adjusting the date would provide the gobbler as much time as I believe would be tolerable to both you, and the license holders in Alabama. Personally, I would like to see Turkey Season open somewhere between March 25 and April 1, but do not believe that is acceptable.

Having been exposed to the people I have and the opportunities I have had, I am also convinced the Alabama Bearded Gobbler bag limit should be reduced from five (5) to three (3), and only one (1) per day. No other state has a bag limit of five (5), and only two other states have a bag limit of four (4). Most states bag limit is between one (1) and three (3).

I am aware of the testing and research Auburn University is conducting in Alabama. I am not optimistic the Auburn University study will produce conclusive data, due to the small geographic footprint compared to the size of Alabama and the distance from the Gulf of Mexico to the Tennessee State Line, combined with the length of time required to conclude that study. Personally, I believe the time to act is now, and we cannot wait on the results of the data.

Currently, the Wild Turkey is the Number 2 Wildlife Resource in the State of Alabama. As soon as Chronic Wasting Disease is discovered in Alabama, the Wild Turkey could easily become the Number 1 Wildlife Resource in Alabama. Even if the Wild Turkey remains the Number 2 Wildlife Resource, you are a Conservation Advisory Board Member, and you are charged with protecting the Wildlife Resources of the State of Alabama, regardless of opposition or popularity. I challenge you to do your job as an advocate for the Wild Turkeys in Alabama.

I will be attending the next CAB Meeting to personally address my concerns of season dates and bag limit. Please pass along my concerns to the entire Conservation Advisory Board.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.


I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: gobbler] #2552940
08/15/18 06:34 PM
08/15/18 06:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
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Boxes Cove
Who wrote that foolishness ? Sounds like Jessica Butler's playbook.

Feller who wrote that is one of those holier than tho turkey snobs. Fanning and "deer hunting" turkeys on a plot are legal , if a hunter wants to do it , it's his business.

If we are killing the gobblers before they get a chance to breed , how does changing from March 15 to the 3rd Saturday solve that problem?


Last edited by 2Dogs; 08/15/18 07:28 PM.


"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2552960
08/15/18 06:54 PM
08/15/18 06:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,175
South Alabama
gobbler Offline
12 point
gobbler  Offline
12 point
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,175
South Alabama
Originally Posted by Mbrock
The model is extremely difficult to understand without really taking a long look and evaluating what the numbers mean, and where they go. It's complex. Trust me on this.....you will see data and numbers from any proposed changes.

From a previous thread. The proposal was presented. Do we have any "numbers and data" yet?


I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2553258
08/16/18 06:11 AM
08/16/18 06:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 25,656
Locust Fork, Alabama
BC Offline
Freak of Nature
BC  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 25,656
Locust Fork, Alabama
All of this is going to end badly for us.


"Some men are mere hunters; others are turkey hunters."

-- Archibald Rutledge
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: gobbler] #2553267
08/16/18 06:28 AM
08/16/18 06:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,842
Montgomery / Luverne
crenshawco Offline
Booner
crenshawco  Offline
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Montgomery / Luverne
Originally Posted by gobbler
Originally Posted by Mbrock
The model is extremely difficult to understand without really taking a long look and evaluating what the numbers mean, and where they go. It's complex. Trust me on this.....you will see data and numbers from any proposed changes.

From a previous thread. The proposal was presented. Do we have any "numbers and data" yet?


My guess is that will never be available to the public. It's too "complex" for the peasant hunters of the state to comprehend

Originally Posted by BC
All of this is going to end badly for us.


No doubt about it.

At least in that diatribe that gobbler posted above the goober recommended keeping the total season length at 47 days. That would push us into May for a few days depending on how the calendar falls. Under the new regs, we are still ending at the end of April so the season length will be shortened by 1-6 days depending on the year.

Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: gobbler] #2553359
08/16/18 08:54 AM
08/16/18 08:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,634
Past Ol’ man Finley’s plac...
Southwood7 Offline OP
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Southwood7  Offline OP
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Past Ol’ man Finley’s plac...

Originally Posted by gobbler
Originally Posted by Mbrock
The model is extremely difficult to understand without really taking a long look and evaluating what the numbers mean, and where they go. It's complex. Trust me on this.....you will see data and numbers from any proposed changes.

From a previous thread. The proposal was presented. Do we have any "numbers and data" yet?


Matt Brock responded to this last night and this morning I see the post is gone. I can’t rememebr what he said word for word but he did say he isn’t on the turkey committee anymore.



The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 33:4
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2553363
08/16/18 08:57 AM
08/16/18 08:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 38,489
N. Bama
257wbymag Offline
Boo Boo Head
257wbymag  Offline
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Posts: 38,489
N. Bama
They kicked him off the committee cause he's so rough on turkeys himself. Kills limits before April and such.


Quietly killing turkeys where youre not!!!
My tank full of give a fraks been runnin on empty
I'm the paterfamilias
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2553368
08/16/18 09:06 AM
08/16/18 09:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779
LASW
turkey247 Offline
10 point
turkey247  Offline
10 point
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Posts: 4,779
LASW
I’m not even convinced a 3 bird limit will decrease harvest. That’s something that doesn’t even get discussed.

The guy that wrote the holier than thou rant to the CAB, just confirmed what I’ve been thinking anyway. Do you think he will see fewer turkey die if the limit is 3. No he won’t. He will only see two less down the end of his own barrel. Same for me. All the gobbling and willing to die turkey on my place will still die. Just killed by my kids or a friend or relative. Gobbling turkey in the Spring get themselves killed one way or the other.

Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2553373
08/16/18 09:12 AM
08/16/18 09:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,911
huntin the big lease
T
Turkeymaster Offline
8 point
Turkeymaster  Offline
8 point
T
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,911
huntin the big lease


This is all I need to know, They start breeding before season and I've seen them breed a hen all the way into first part of June. There is no perfect time because every year is different IMO
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"All is fair in love, War and Turkey Hunting"
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2553386
08/16/18 09:29 AM
08/16/18 09:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779
LASW
turkey247 Offline
10 point
turkey247  Offline
10 point
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779
LASW
You can’t have the same starting dates for Clarke vs Laudedale County, or Barbour vs Jackson. Without zones, which apparently nobody wants, somebody is gonna start early, and others late.

But I’ve said multiple times, everything south of Hwy 80 should be March 15 or earlier. No reason at all those counties should change or go later.

Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: turkey247] #2553394
08/16/18 09:41 AM
08/16/18 09:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,052
Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher Offline
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poorcountrypreacher  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,052
Sylacauga, AL
Originally Posted by turkey247
I’m not even convinced a 3 bird limit will decrease harvest. That’s something that doesn’t even get discussed.

The guy that wrote the holier than thou rant to the CAB, just confirmed what I’ve been thinking anyway. Do you think he will see fewer turkey die if the limit is 3. No he won’t. He will only see two less down the end of his own barrel. Same for me. All the gobbling and willing to die turkey on my place will still die. Just killed by my kids or a friend or relative. Gobbling turkey in the Spring get themselves killed one way or the other.



You are right; it won't make a bit of difference in the world. Birds #4 and 5 make up a tiny segment of the harvest. Even if people would pay any attention to it, most of those turkeys would just get killed by someone else. But like those who push gun control, it will make some folks feel better because we are "doing something" about the perceived problem. It doesn't matter to them whether it works or not.

Reducing the season on the front end might result in a lower overall harvest. Any time hunters are in the woods, some hens will be killed. I am not convinced that such a move is really needed, but that at least would have an impact. I suspect that the guide guy's idea of moving the season into May might do more harm than having those days in March. Hunters roaming the woods in May and bumping hens off their nests could be worse for the flock than the few hens being shot in March.

Thanks for the info, gobbler. A reduced limit and a season that always opens on Saturday is ideal for those who offer commercial hunts. I can understand why that guy wants the changes. No reason to let rednecks kill those extra turkeys when they can sell them to someone. After reading that letter, it gives us a much better understanding of what is going on here. It's always follow the money.

Last edited by poorcountrypreacher; 08/16/18 09:43 AM.

All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2553395
08/16/18 09:44 AM
08/16/18 09:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
C
Clem Offline
Mildly Quirky
Clem  Offline
Mildly Quirky
C
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,938
Over Yonder
Originally Posted by Southwood7

Originally Posted by gobbler
Originally Posted by Mbrock
The model is extremely difficult to understand without really taking a long look and evaluating what the numbers mean, and where they go. It's complex. Trust me on this.....you will see data and numbers from any proposed changes.

From a previous thread. The proposal was presented. Do we have any "numbers and data" yet?


Matt Brock responded to this last night and this morning I see the post is gone. I can’t rememebr what he said word for word but he did say he isn’t on the turkey committee anymore.


He also said the turkey season recommendation th eCAB voted on was not recommended by the WWF biologists.

That's two people - him and Sykes - saying this season change proposal did not come from the department's biologists.

It's clearly being pushed by outside interests to the CAB.


As for zones, for turkeys that wouldn't bother me a bit. As noted above what happens in Jackson or Lauderdale counties is in no way the same as what's going on in Baldwin or Clarke or Barbour counties on March 15.

Last edited by Clem; 08/16/18 09:47 AM.

"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

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Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2553458
08/16/18 11:31 AM
08/16/18 11:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,052
Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher Offline
Booner
poorcountrypreacher  Offline
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Sylacauga, AL


Just a quick point - we already have zones for turkey season and we have for decades. There are some counties that don't come in until April 1. This is the way the department has always managed turkey season; places with fewer turkeys get a shorter season.

Adjusting the season length in places where there aren't many turkeys is exactly what the department is supposed to do. Adjusting it to fulfill the desires of commercial lodges is exactly what they are not supposed to do.

I can't do it today, but I will write a letter to the CAB and the commissioner. I'd encourage everyone else to do the same. And remember that every member of the CAB was appointed by a Republican governor - do you think that heavy government restrictions on hunting fit in best with Republican ideas or Democratic ideas? I think we all know the answer to that and intend to pound it in my letter.


All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2553470
08/16/18 11:45 AM
08/16/18 11:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,634
Past Ol’ man Finley’s plac...
Southwood7 Offline OP
Booner
Southwood7  Offline OP
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Past Ol’ man Finley’s plac...

PCP, haven’t you been asking for several years now how many hunters kill 5 birds? If we lower the limit to 3 it would be nice to know how may gobblers we might be “saving”. And if we have a few extra gobblers around by reducing the limit or shortening the season is that really going to result in a better hatch and more poults?
I am no biologist and I won’t pretend to be one. All I want is seasons and bag limits set by people who have no agenda and ONLY care about the resource. Unfortunately it seems like this is too much to ask.



The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 33:4
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2553641
08/16/18 04:28 PM
08/16/18 04:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,052
Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher Offline
Booner
poorcountrypreacher  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
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Sylacauga, AL
Originally Posted by Southwood7

PCP, haven’t you been asking for several years now how many hunters kill 5 birds? If we lower the limit to 3 it would be nice to know how may gobblers we might be “saving”. And if we have a few extra gobblers around by reducing the limit or shortening the season is that really going to result in a better hatch and more poults?
I am no biologist and I won’t pretend to be one. All I want is seasons and bag limits set by people who have no agenda and ONLY care about the resource. Unfortunately it seems like this is too much to ask.



Yeah, I've been wondering about that a long time. And fortunately, we can now know exactly how many legally killed gobblers would be "saved" by reducing the limit to 3. Anyone who has access to the GC numbers could look it up for us. The thing is, ALL of the legally killed gobblers are listed right there, and if it wasn't reported then it wasn't legal. It seems very likely to me that hunters that won't participate in GC are not gonna be affected at all by a lower season limit, so in this particular case the GC numbers will be 100% accurate.

I would guess that the number is under 100. I would also guess that information will continue to be a closely guarded secret.

Thanks for bringing it up; I will ask them that question in my letter. Maybe someone on the CAB will demand the answer.


All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: BC] #2553657
08/16/18 04:44 PM
08/16/18 04:44 PM

O
outdoorobsession
Unregistered
outdoorobsession
Unregistered
O


Originally Posted by BC
Originally Posted by T-town
I got a response from my emails:



I was forwarded several emails from you today, one of which came from the Commissioner’s office, and I have been asked to respond to your concerns. I see that they are all centered around the change in the opening day of turkey season for the upcoming year. The spring opening date change from March 15 to the 3rd Saturday in March was a recommendation proposed by the Conservation Advisory Board. To be clear, the recommendation was not proposed by ADCNR Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries Division (WFF) wildlife biologists. The first priority with our staff in recommending changes to season regulations is the wildlife resource in which we a deemed responsible for managing. If a later opening had been proposed by our staff, it would likely have been later than the 3rd Saturday in March based on preliminary data. Our WFF Wild Turkey Committee, in cooperation with researchers at Auburn University, has developed wild turkey prediction models using current biological data such as reproduction, survival, and harvest rates to predict future populations under various season and bag limit alternatives. Although this work is not yet complete, indications are pointing to a later opening and reduced bag limit as the optimal alternative to produce the most viable populations. We are currently updating the model and will include data gleaned from the current AU research project when it concludes next year. Besides the observed decline in population growth as evidenced by our statewide brood surveys and harvest trends, harvest intensity in the first couple weeks of the spring season may play a role in reducing the potential of hens being bred.

I am looking at the turkey season and bag limit recommendations through three pair of glasses. First as a turkey hunter with 40 years of experience here in Alabama. Secondly, as a college educated wildlife biologist with more than 25 years of on-the-ground experience of managing tens of thousands of acres in Alabama. And finally, as the Director of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries whose job is to manage, protect, conserve, and enhance the wildlife and aquatic resources of Alabama for the sustainable benefit of the people of Alabama. As a selfish turkey hunter, I want as many days afield as I can get regardless of the negative impact it could have on the resource. As a biologist, I want the season to start in April as the biological data suggests which would be best for the resource. As the Director, I have to weigh the consequences of both sides before I make recommendations.

As you said in your email, “ I’m personally not concerned about the hunter who isn’t “off work” until Saturday, when the season opens up during the week. If it mattered to that guy, he could schedule his vacation time accordingly like the rest of us do that enjoy weekday hunting. “ I’d be willing to bet that the hunter you mentioned prior is not concerned about your issues of, “My children’s spring break normally coincides with the 15th opener. I know that all school district calendars are not the same, but it matters to us. Competitive kids spring sports; baseball, softball, soccer, dance and cheer almost all involve weekend travel these days”. Although these season changes may be inconvenient for some of our hunters, our focus is maintaining sustainable populations of wild turkeys, while providing hunting opportunities for all Alabamians, now and in the future.

Thank you for your input and I hope I have adequately addressed all of your concerns.


Chuck Sykes
Director
Wildlife & Freshwater Fisheries Division



Click reply.

Type Dear Chuck,




[Linked Image]


Wow Brian! Pretty good!

Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: 3toe] #2553659
08/16/18 04:46 PM
08/16/18 04:46 PM

O
outdoorobsession
Unregistered
outdoorobsession
Unregistered
O


Originally Posted by 3toe
Originally Posted by Out back
Here is my response.... Catch me if you can!


Reminds me. I need a new pair of running shoes before next year.


Nope. All you need is a HECS suit. It works on wardens too. Theyll never see you! thumbup Trust me. Youll be fine. grin

Last edited by outdoorobsession; 08/16/18 04:51 PM.
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: ] #2553749
08/16/18 07:15 PM
08/16/18 07:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 25,656
Locust Fork, Alabama
BC Offline
Freak of Nature
BC  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 25,656
Locust Fork, Alabama
Maybe if we bombard his dumb butt with complaints and letters they will reverse course like they did a few years back when they banned fall hunting and then gave it right back.


"Some men are mere hunters; others are turkey hunters."

-- Archibald Rutledge
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: BC] #2553753
08/16/18 07:21 PM
08/16/18 07:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 7,941
Right behind you
Mbrock Offline
Fancy
Mbrock  Offline
Fancy
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Posts: 7,941
Right behind you
Originally Posted by BC
Maybe if we bombard his dumb butt with complaints and letters they will reverse course like they did a few years back when they banned fall hunting and then gave it right back.


Chuck alone can’t do that. He didn’t make the recommendation and does not have authority over the CAB and Commissioner.

Last edited by Mbrock; 08/16/18 07:21 PM.
Re: Contact the DCNR [Re: Southwood7] #2553766
08/16/18 07:36 PM
08/16/18 07:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,175
South Alabama
gobbler Offline
12 point
gobbler  Offline
12 point
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,175
South Alabama
You could certainly include him in the letters and emails bombarding the CAB members, the Commissioner, and make sure to include the Chief wildlife section Keith Gauldin, Assistant Chief Chris Smith, and especially, Assistant chief Amy Silvano.


I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
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