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Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: jhardy] #2470988
04/27/18 09:15 AM
04/27/18 09:15 AM
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I am leaving town at noon so pardon the short reply. Here is a short list. Will be happy to go into much more detail later.

Released January 2018 by QDMA in opposition to a baiting bill.
• Baiting has the potential to accelerate transmission of diseases such as chronic wasting disease (CWD) and bovine tuberculosis (TB) should they ever be discovered in Alabama.
• Numerous national surveys confirm that the vast majority of the hunting and non-hunting public objects to hunting over bait.
• Legalization of baiting has been shown to create both “offensive” and “defensive” baiting situations among neighboring hunters, thus increasing conflicts.
• Baiting can alter deer behavior patterns, increasing movement and feeding activity at night rather than during the day. Research has clearly shown that deer harvest does not increase with legalized baiting.
• Experience in other states suggests a 4- to 8-fold increase in the amount of artificial food on the landscape following legalization of baiting.
• Evidence confirms that predators key in on feed sites to ambush deer – thus increasing deer mortality rates.
• Baiting has been shown to increase reproduction/spread of nuisance animals such as feral hogs and raccoons.

Last edited by WildlifeBiologist; 04/27/18 09:21 AM.

Micah 6:8
Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: Fun4all] #2470994
04/27/18 09:19 AM
04/27/18 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Fun4all

[/

BUT, there is absolutely no way that it will provide more, or better, food than a quality feeder that is maintained with protein pellets.
[/quote]

I agree on a leaf/blade of grass comparison with a protein pellet. However, two weeks after the season is over when the feeder is not refilled (yes, one can bet it will be well maintained during the season) that is where the comparison stops and the food plot far exceeds the feeder in benefit to the wildlife. Which is what the reality is and will be. If "hunters" wanted to do the best thing for the deer and other wildlife regarding feeders that would be to us them when the wildlife needs it most which is after the rut when the deer need to recover and there is less nutritious browse available. But that is not the reason for the baiting in the first place, that reason is to make it easier to kill all of those deer that everybody complains that there are too few of. Thorough lack of common sense and a lot of finding the easiest solution possible is the answer du jour!

Carry on.[/quote]
you left out the fact that the deer can be sustained during this time by the fat they have built up, by eating the corn and protein pellets during season. And also most food plots that are planted are accomplishing little to nothing for the deer, a month or 2 after planting. Sure some might, but i would geese that a majority of them are not. Not to mention the fact that deer having been living along time before the food plots were ever planted in the woods. Let me ask you this, How many non-hunters do you know of that plant food plots that dont hunt? NONE! Just like the bait corn, there planted to kill deer off of. You can try to rationalize any way you want, its the same thing.


For without victory, there is no survival
Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: WildlifeBiologist] #2471016
04/27/18 09:37 AM
04/27/18 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by WildlifeBiologist
I am leaving town at noon so pardon the short reply. Here is a short list. Will be happy to go into much more detail later.

Released January 2018 by QDMA in opposition to a baiting bill.
• Baiting has the potential to accelerate transmission of diseases such as chronic wasting disease (CWD) and bovine tuberculosis (TB) should they ever be discovered in Alabama.
• Numerous national surveys confirm that the vast majority of the hunting and non-hunting public objects to hunting over bait.
• Legalization of baiting has been shown to create both “offensive” and “defensive” baiting situations among neighboring hunters, thus increasing conflicts.
• Baiting can alter deer behavior patterns, increasing movement and feeding activity at night rather than during the day. Research has clearly shown that deer harvest does not increase with legalized baiting.
• Experience in other states suggests a 4- to 8-fold increase in the amount of artificial food on the landscape following legalization of baiting.
• Evidence confirms that predators key in on feed sites to ambush deer – thus increasing deer mortality rates.
• Baiting has been shown to increase reproduction/spread of nuisance animals such as feral hogs and raccoons.



I may be neutral on the subject but ain't no way Alabama would increase 4- 8 fold over what is already being used if we are talking just corn. It would take all the corn in the world for that big of increase. grin

Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: Recurve] #2471036
04/27/18 09:48 AM
04/27/18 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Recurve
Originally Posted by ElkHunter
I think if passed it will erode more of our hunting heritage. We will become more like TX. Put out a feeder and sit and wait. And please don't start with the food plot is the same thing. This is simply my opinion.


Reminds me of that episode of King of the Hill. I dislike the arguments used to support baiting I think more than the idea of actually baiting:
1) My rich neighbors are doing it and I can't afford it
2) My poor redneck neighbors are doing it
3) It's no different than food plots
4) _____ state is doing it

My main concern with baiting or any other issue related to hunting is whether or not it’s good for wildlife.


This should be the only concern of the game and fish department but we know that's not how decisions are made.


Dying ain't much of a living boy...Josey Wales

Molon Labe
Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: centralala] #2471038
04/27/18 09:51 AM
04/27/18 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by centralala
Originally Posted by WildlifeBiologist
Originally Posted by jb20
While i disagree with your thought process it honestly doesn't make a hill of beans difference to me if it passes or doesnt. Its not going to affect my hunting.


Nothing could be further from the truth. It most certainly will affect your hunting and mine.


You lost me there. Could you please explain.

Never mind. I read your previous post and see what you were talking about. I, and assume jb20,,where thinking of my property and the neighbor is pouring out corn. Already happening but you're looking at a much bigger picture.

I'm no wildlife biologist so I may unaware of the consequence to baiting..if it's bad for the deer on a level of disease spread and it can be proven then I'll be against it but I hunt a large tract and it's just me so I don't care if my neighbors r baiting because I still kill deer at the moment
Edit I didn't see the previous post above so if it's so then I'll all for the betterment of deer

Last edited by jb20; 04/27/18 09:59 AM.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: BigUncleLeroy] #2471041
04/27/18 09:54 AM
04/27/18 09:54 AM
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With CWD getting ready to blow up, I can't believe this would be a consideration. Where are the biologists to smash some heads on this?


Public Land Owner
Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: jb20] #2471054
04/27/18 10:08 AM
04/27/18 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jb20
Originally Posted by centralala
Originally Posted by WildlifeBiologist
Originally Posted by jb20
While i disagree with your thought process it honestly doesn't make a hill of beans difference to me if it passes or doesnt. Its not going to affect my hunting.


Nothing could be further from the truth. It most certainly will affect your hunting and mine.


You lost me there. Could you please explain.

Never mind. I read your previous post and see what you were talking about. I, and assume jb20,,where thinking of my property and the neighbor is pouring out corn. Already happening but you're looking at a much bigger picture.

I'm no wildlife biologist so I may unaware of the consequence to baiting..if it's bad for the deer on a level of disease spread and it can be proven then I'll be against it but I hunt a large tract and it's just me so I don't care if my neighbors r baiting because I still kill deer at the moment


I'm with you, whatever. It says there is "potential" for baiting to spread disease. That very same ",potential" as supplemental feeding or granny putting Apple's in her back yard so she can watch the deer. If disease is a real concern, then granny needs to be addressed.

I
Baiting CAN alter their movement to night. Is it, baiting WILL alter their movement to night? Probably somewhere in between. But even then is it 90% or 9%? 1% of the deer altering to night movement would make ",baiting can alter their movement to night" a correct statement. I just like a little more info

Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: BigUncleLeroy] #2471063
04/27/18 10:16 AM
04/27/18 10:16 AM
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I said I wouldn't try to prove you wrong as you are a biologist and I am not, so I will refrain from anything I might disagree with in those QDMA points. I do think QDMA is not necessarily built on science currently. Their love of money long ago outran their love for science.

That said, and I know you said you would reply in detail later, this is the one I am most interested in by far. The others are mostly potential effects that surround the ethics argument. I can't capitulate to every tree hugger.


• Baiting has the potential to accelerate transmission of diseases such as chronic wasting disease (CWD) and bovine tuberculosis (TB) should they ever be discovered in Alabama.

Can you expound on this one in particular? And you can ignore the should they ever be discovered part. I can rationalize that part without a study to back it up.

Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: BigUncleLeroy] #2471080
04/27/18 10:40 AM
04/27/18 10:40 AM
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Missouri is one state that has begun banning backyard feeding in CWD areas.


Micah 6:8
Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: BigUncleLeroy] #2471094
04/27/18 10:53 AM
04/27/18 10:53 AM
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CWD is spread through direct contact with body fluids (saliva, urine, etc.). Concentrating deer at a feeder increases the frequency of direct nose-to-nose contact. Hence, if CWD is discovered in a particular herd, then feeders can accelerate its spread.


Micah 6:8
Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: WildlifeBiologist] #2471097
04/27/18 10:54 AM
04/27/18 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by WildlifeBiologist
CWD is spread through direct contact with body fluids (saliva, urine, etc.). Concentrating deer at a feeder increases the frequency of direct nose-to-nose contact. Hence, if CWD is discovered in a particular herd, then feeders can accelerate its spread.

thats why its best to spread it out through the food plot.


For without victory, there is no survival
Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: centralala] #2471101
04/27/18 10:59 AM
04/27/18 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by centralala
Originally Posted by Recurve


My main concern with baiting or any other issue related to hunting is whether or not it’s good for wildlife.


ANY subject, I don't care if it's NOT good for the wildlife. Just be neutral. IT JUST CAN NOT BE BAD FOR THE WILDLIFE! An example is the Feb extension in the north. It's not going to be good for wildlife. If it's neutral, no effect, then hunt it. But some think it is not good. Ok, let's hear their view. They may be right. In the end for everything wildlife just don't be bad. That's what I have been saying all along.


Thank you and that is more accurate a point than I was able to make. Yes, an issue can be neutral to the health of wildlife and I agree 100% on the Feb extension in the north. My issue is people don't approach this argument with regards to the effects on wildlife. It's all "muh rights." And I know people want to frame the anti-baiting argument as weak in terms of causing or spreading disease, but we all know diseases like CWD are spread through situations of crowding. I don't think that is up for debate. Then we want to purposefully set up crowding?


I hope we have once again reminded people that man is not free unless government is limited. There�s a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics: as government expands, liberty contracts. � Ronald Reagan
Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: WildlifeBiologist] #2471103
04/27/18 11:01 AM
04/27/18 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by WildlifeBiologist
CWD is spread through direct contact with body fluids (saliva, urine, etc.). Concentrating deer at a feeder increases the frequency of direct nose-to-nose contact. Hence, if CWD is discovered in a particular herd, then feeders can accelerate its spread.


I understand what you are getting at here and there have been generic statements like that long before CWD. Is there a specific study or studies that show how the baiting and/or supplemental feeding of deer has caused a wild population to spread disease?

Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: WildlifeBiologist] #2471104
04/27/18 11:02 AM
04/27/18 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by WildlifeBiologist
Originally Posted by jb20
While i disagree with your thought process it honestly doesn't make a hill of beans difference to me if it passes or doesnt. Its not going to affect my hunting.


Nothing could be further from the truth. It most certainly will affect your hunting and mine.



While I completely respect your opinion and knowledge as a degreed wildlife biologist, I disagree that it will drastically impact deer movement and your hunting and mine. In the QDMA statement, there are a bunch of if's and buts and I also agree with whomever said it in this thread, that QDMA has morphed into something completely different from what it was when it was first started. The QDMA's response is nothing but words on a page to advance whatever benefits them the most at the time. James Kroll, Kip, Brian, and all of them were pushing the supplemental feeding of protein pellets as a management assistance technique in the past on QDMA managed properties and probably still are. Camera surveys have and continue to be pushed by QDMA, all of those are done with bait piles.

As far as the CWD and TB, yes it could enhance transmission of the disease, but deer are social animals anyway. They feed side by side, in both woods and fields, touch noses, lick each other etc. Would feeding drastically enhance the spread? Probably so on a short tem basis and probably not on a long term basis. The ones that will contract it would eventually contract it through other interactions whether baiting was present or not. With as much supplemental feed and illegal baiting as has gone on in Alabama for the past 40+ years and will continue to go on regardless of the pass or fail of the legalization of hunting over bait, this is a mute point.

It will increase the amount of supplemental feed in the woods by 4 to 8X? That would mean that currently in Alabama, the number of people supplementally feeding or illegally baiting is estimated at 10% to 20% assuming a small percentage will not ever bait regardless of the law. Those percentages are ridiculously low. I have 4 properties that currently adjoin mine and I know for a fact that 3 of the 4 have feed/bait out during the season and one has it out year round. While it's just one particular area, including my property in the mix, that would mean that 60% of the 5 properties in that particular area have it out for at least a portion of the year. Based on my experience with leases pretty much all over the central and south part of the state, I'd guess that probably 50%, if not more, of the hunted properties in AL have bait out somewhere on them at some time during the season, and thats not counting the thousands of people that have a "jacklight" in their backyard behind the house or are throwing out a bag corn of every 3-7 days to watch deer in their backyard.

Would lead to high fence and selling deer by the inch? If this was truly a concern, it should have been addressed 20 years ago. That horse is already out of the barn. There are a lot of guys hunting in "the big pen" here in Alabama and all over the country for that matter. IMO, QDMA while not formally advocating for it, inadvertently assisted with pushing the "lets grow the biggest deer we can" by letting them get the age to reach their potential. Bigger racks come with age so by default, it was pushing for more inches of antler.

Will make deer more nocturnal? Deer are nocturnal animals by nature. Lastly, I offer up Texas as my example. They've been managing and feeding deer longer than any state in the nation and bovine TB has been in the southern part of that state in cattle since at least the 80's. It's really unfortunate that they allow feeding too. The QDMA is right in their statement. Because they feed, you cant see a deer down there in the daylight anymore since they are all nocturnal, and you also cant see one because they've all died from diseases contracted at the 400,000 feeders that are run down there year round.

Baiting has been shown to increase the reproduction of nuisance animals such as hogs? Hogs run in sounders, boars are going to breed every sow they are around regardless of whether that is on an acorn flat, in a pine thicket, or at a corn feeder. To even make the statement that feeding increases hog reproduction is utterly ridiculous. If anything a feeder concentrates them in certain areas making them easier to pattern and catch or kill. I learned something reading the QDMAs statement on that. I never knew that corn was a hog aphrodisiac that helped get the boars and the sows "in the mood" to get it on.

Let me say this. I hope that I am not coming across and being antagonistic or argumentative. The spread of both CWD and Bovine TB is a very serious issue, but i think that we need to step back and take a global look at things. I am not for legalizing baiting but some of the arguments being presented against it, while they would seem logical from a "book or common sense perspective" simply dont hold water when applied against what has actually happened in the field, in real life, in the past 20-30 years, since deer management became popular. KInd of like the old belief that was pushed for years that you should kill all spikes because they were inferior. That came from game managers and biologists too and it has been repeatedly proven false over the years.

Last edited by abolt300; 04/27/18 11:40 AM.
Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: BigUncleLeroy] #2471107
04/27/18 11:07 AM
04/27/18 11:07 AM
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Quote
CWD is spread through direct contact with body fluids (saliva, urine, etc.). Concentrating deer at a feeder increases the frequency of direct nose-to-nose contact. Hence, if CWD is discovered in a particular herd, then feeders can accelerate its spread.


Then why isn't it illegal to feed deer period? Because there is nothing about sitting over a feeder with a gun that suddenly makes it spread disease. And there are so many people slinging corn now (and for the last 20 years as well) that any drastic increase in disease transmission would already have happened.


The best index to a person’s character is (a) how he treats people who can’t do him any good, and (b) how he treats people who can’t fight back.
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Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: Todd1700] #2471118
04/27/18 11:20 AM
04/27/18 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd1700
Quote
CWD is spread through direct contact with body fluids (saliva, urine, etc.). Concentrating deer at a feeder increases the frequency of direct nose-to-nose contact. Hence, if CWD is discovered in a particular herd, then feeders can accelerate its spread.


Then why isn't it illegal to feed deer period? Because there is nothing about sitting over a feeder with a gun that suddenly makes it spread disease. And there are so many people slinging corn now (and for the last 20 years as well) that any drastic increase in disease transmission would already have happened.


Because it isn't here yet.

But in the states that it is yes they do ban that kind of "feeding".


"The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

" Chuck Sykes is a dictator control freak like Vladimir Putin " WmHunter

Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: BigUncleLeroy] #2471133
04/27/18 11:38 AM
04/27/18 11:38 AM
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Quote
. KInd of like the old belief that you should kill all spikes because they were inferior. That came from game managers and biologists too and it has been repeatedly proven false over the years


Exactly. I remember the condescending way people like myself were talked to by biologists when we used to state that the rut was occurring in late January and into February on our land in south Alabama. We were treated like a half retarded child that had wandered into a conversation about the moon and then suggested it was made of green cheese. No, they said, what we were seeing was a mild secondary rut. The main rut was occurring in mid December. And they knew this because.....well.....I guess they had read a book about it. And that's what the book said.

And then somebody finally conducted an actual study and found out.......the average date of conception for does in my region of Alabama was the first week of February. Gee, imagine that.


The best index to a person’s character is (a) how he treats people who can’t do him any good, and (b) how he treats people who can’t fight back.
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Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: BigUncleLeroy] #2471150
04/27/18 11:50 AM
04/27/18 11:50 AM
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Quote
Baiting CAN alter their movement to night. Is it, baiting WILL alter their movement to night? Probably somewhere in between. But even then is it 90% or 9%? 1% of the deer altering to night movement would make ",baiting can alter their movement to night" a correct statement. I just like a little more info


And in addition to giving a specific percentage I would also love to hear why feeders have this effect on deer but not food plots. That should be an interesting answer and I look forward to it.


The best index to a person’s character is (a) how he treats people who can’t do him any good, and (b) how he treats people who can’t fight back.
- Abigail van Buren
Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: BigUncleLeroy] #2471184
04/27/18 12:21 PM
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Could you be mine?

I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,


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Re: Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill? [Re: Backporch] #2471222
04/27/18 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Backporch


It's a neighborly day in this beautywood,
A neighborly day for a beauty,
Would you be mine?
Could you be mine?

I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,



Smoke it up!


I hope we have once again reminded people that man is not free unless government is limited. There�s a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics: as government expands, liberty contracts. � Ronald Reagan
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