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Breed ethics? #2332226
12/15/17 06:05 AM
12/15/17 06:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,761
Marshall County
ALMODUX Offline OP
10 point
ALMODUX  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,761
Marshall County
Curious why some consider it okay/ethical to push silver labs as real, authentic, true to breed and standard, while anyone selling any other imitation item in the world, would get hammered for fake advertising? Its like saying you have a purple factory finished leupold, when leupold has never made one.....then folks getting in line and paying twice the cost than for a regular/real leupold, because purple is cool, and someone besides leupold swore to them it was really a leupold. Im not slandering the dogs, but the ethics of their representation vs the breeds. If you want to hybridize your own strains for certain traits, thats fine. If you want to own those, thats fine. I just dont think you get to ethically call them original , just because it allows a higher price. Id love to cross AWS and Lab lines, to have another retriever breed....but I couldnt ethically call the offerings wavy coat labradors and register as chocolate labs, no matter how many rebreedings back to labs I did just to COVER UP where the wavy coat came from. There exists a flat coated retriever. You could start a gray retriever breed. Look at labradoodles and golden doodles for example. I love most ANY good natured dog. I just question some folks who get this stuff started, not those who get caught up in it.

JMO.

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2332326
12/15/17 07:27 AM
12/15/17 07:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,504
Montgomery
bamaeyedoc Online content
Old Mossy Horns
bamaeyedoc  Online Content
Old Mossy Horns
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Posts: 15,504
Montgomery
I don't know much about silver labs or so called "red" labs. But along the same lines of keeping a bad gene out of the pool, I had a buddy 25 years ago who had a Rhodesian Ridgeback dog at one time. Beautiful dog and he would breed her with another stud and have the prettiest pups. But he wouldn't sell a pup if it was not perfect. He was a purist and although I didn't agree with it, if a pup was born without the ridge down the back, he dispatched it with a .22. Fortunately, that was a rare. But it did keep the gene pool from being diluted with "inferior" genetics.

Dr. B


AKA: “Dr. B”
Aldeer #121
8-3-2000
Proud alum of AUM, UAB, and UA
Member of Team 10 Point
2023-2024 ALdeer Deer Contest Winners

Glennis Jerome "Jerry" Harris
1938-2017
UGA Class of 1960
BS/MS Forestry
LTJG, USNR



Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2332399
12/15/17 08:20 AM
12/15/17 08:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,091
alabama
BhamFred Offline
Freak of Nature
BhamFred  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,091
alabama
anybody who would shoot a puppy with a .22 because it didn't meet some standard is headed to hell.


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2332403
12/15/17 08:22 AM
12/15/17 08:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 13,838
Mobile, AL
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SouthBamaSlayer Offline
Gary's Fluffer
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Posts: 13,838
Mobile, AL
There's no real evidence to back up that "silver labs" have weimeraner in them. Silver labs are just a recessive chocolate that carries the gene for dilution. It's the same as champagne (dilute yellow) and charcoal (dilute black).

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: BhamFred] #2332448
12/15/17 08:45 AM
12/15/17 08:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,504
Montgomery
bamaeyedoc Online content
Old Mossy Horns
bamaeyedoc  Online Content
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,504
Montgomery
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
anybody who would shoot a puppy with a .22 because it didn't meet some standard is headed to hell.


Yeah I can agree. Fortunately, he turned his life around 180 degrees and definitely not the same person he was back then.

Dr. B

Last edited by bamaeyedoc; 12/15/17 08:46 AM.

AKA: “Dr. B”
Aldeer #121
8-3-2000
Proud alum of AUM, UAB, and UA
Member of Team 10 Point
2023-2024 ALdeer Deer Contest Winners

Glennis Jerome "Jerry" Harris
1938-2017
UGA Class of 1960
BS/MS Forestry
LTJG, USNR



Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2332606
12/15/17 11:01 AM
12/15/17 11:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,187
Lamar
F
Fishduck Offline
6 point
Fishduck  Offline
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Posts: 1,187
Lamar
Every silver lab pedigree I have ever seen traced it's lineage back to Culo Kennels. May not be on the 3 or 5 generation pedigree but it is there. Culo Kennels did not keep very good records and happened to breed both labs and weimeramers.

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2333000
12/15/17 04:35 PM
12/15/17 04:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,761
Marshall County
ALMODUX Offline OP
10 point
ALMODUX  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,761
Marshall County
AFAIK, no lab ever had a d gene turned on/doubled, until Culo kennels dogs, which also had Weimaraners, I thought.

Also fox red labs are a shade of yellow, and always have been, as a yellow select just turns on two more genes, which control the darkness between almost white, to full on red. Theres no dilute in labs, afaik either. That also seems to be an invention to explain the genetic cross.

http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_contents.php?page=silver+labradors

Last edited by ALMODUX; 12/15/17 04:40 PM.
Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2333118
12/15/17 06:16 PM
12/15/17 06:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,538
Spanish Fort
O
ozarktroutbum Offline
10 point
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Posts: 3,538
Spanish Fort
People are nuts about their dern dogs...and snobs to say the least.

All in all whether it's a chocolate, black, yellow, silver or polkadotted labrador...

They have ALL been interbred to achieve certain characteristics...

Don't breed the silver labs, they're going to ruin the genepool of the dogs that we decided that would only fit in our little club!

Don't get me wrong, I've got a sure enough good looking english black lab that loves to retrieve some dead birds but these kennel/purist/snobby wobby people make me shake my head.

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2333289
12/16/17 03:55 AM
12/16/17 03:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,761
Marshall County
ALMODUX Offline OP
10 point
ALMODUX  Offline OP
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LOL

I dont think youre getting the point. There are rules/guidelines for a reason within ANY breed, otherwise they arent a breed. It was ONLY when establishing a breed, that crossing is part of creation. Nobody is being snobbish about whatever a dog might be. Some just dont see it as ethical (or good for the breed) for some to knowingly mislead others, to make $. If thats okay with you, youre probably okay with buying that secretly rebuilt truck, because its cheaper and got factory camo paint. wink

Last edited by ALMODUX; 12/16/17 03:55 AM.
Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2333294
12/16/17 04:02 AM
12/16/17 04:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,761
Marshall County
ALMODUX Offline OP
10 point
ALMODUX  Offline OP
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Marshall County
....and, my bigger peeve/issue? Dogs bred specifically for looks....color, size, leg length, etc.....that crap is for non-working, non-sporting dogs. If you arent breeding for mental and physical ABILITIES above appearance, then its likely a mistake. If they happen to look good, too?....bonus.

Last edited by ALMODUX; 12/16/17 04:53 AM.
Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2334070
12/16/17 05:51 PM
12/16/17 05:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,515
Trussville
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toothdoc Offline
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toothdoc  Offline
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Trussville
Yep, inbreeding always works out.

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: toothdoc] #2335598
12/18/17 06:23 AM
12/18/17 06:23 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,761
Marshall County
ALMODUX Offline OP
10 point
ALMODUX  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,761
Marshall County
Yeah....Dalmatians.....were apparently a good bird dog before the spots became trendy.

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2336971
12/19/17 08:13 AM
12/19/17 08:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 64
North Alabama
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cpcal21 Offline
spike
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spike
C
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North Alabama
I agree with almodux. The biggest issue with silver labs (apart from the issue of being mixed with weimaraners) is the fact that hunting ability and temperament, which are defining factors of the breed, are often ignored so that the "diluted" color may be bred for. Not to mention the health issues that often arise...

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2339017
12/20/17 03:12 PM
12/20/17 03:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,301
Mobile, AL
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Pwyse Offline
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Pwyse  Offline
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Mobile, AL
It's all in what you want. If you want jam up duck dog, buy one from that line. If you want a show champion, buy one from that line. If you want a silver lab, buy one that has a dilute gene.

Do jam up black dogs that weigh 100 pounds bother you? They don't fit the breed standard either ya know.

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: Pwyse] #2340585
12/21/17 07:01 PM
12/21/17 07:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,761
Marshall County
ALMODUX Offline OP
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ALMODUX  Offline OP
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Marshall County
I think youre confusing breed vs breed standard vs ethics. Im not talking about some AKC show stature at all. Im talking about a Labrador retriever vs a NOT a Labrador retriever and/or breeding OUTSIDE what a breed is, intentionally, and still saying its the same breed. No different (again) than crossing in a poodle with a beagle, then breeding back to beagles, then becoming the only kennel to sell AKC curly coated beagles. Even if you suddenly had one curly coated beagle in your pure bred beagle litter, that doesnt mean theres some dilute curly gene in beagles that one person just happened upon after more than a hundred years. If you then breed for those anamolies, regardless of cause, for marketing, you do a disservice to both dogs and buyers....not to mention the breed. You want a lab thats silver, buy one. Just dont think its a natural, lab thing. A good dog is a good dog, and it doesnt care what you call it. I dont either, until it comes time to vouch for something on a paper that involves $ and ethics and disclosure. If I found I had a genetic Anatoly specific to a different breed in dogs I was selling, Id have to disclose and price accordingly. The opposite Dems to be the case with some stuff these days. Its not the fault of your average breeder or owner, but those that started it to begin with.

Im not downing anyones choice of dog, preferences, or what they do. Im just saying theres some truth that seems to be being avoided, for whatever reason. Just my opinions, and there worth what you paid. LOL

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2340609
12/21/17 09:22 PM
12/21/17 09:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,174
Central Al
twaldrop4 Offline
10 point
twaldrop4  Offline
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Posts: 3,174
Central Al
basically only true lab is a lab that run hunt test and is black?

Last edited by twaldrop4; 12/22/17 03:29 AM.
Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2340800
12/22/17 04:22 AM
12/22/17 04:22 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,761
Marshall County
ALMODUX Offline OP
10 point
ALMODUX  Offline OP
10 point
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Marshall County
Basically, some folks cant read or just wanna be drama queens.

I dont care what anyone does with a lab and Im no huge fan of everything involved in the (not really) hunt tests. You can run a hunt test with any breed you like, and labs arent colored like wiemeraners. If youre gonna pay good $ for a well bred lab, I dont care what color the lab is, as long as its a lab and not something not pure bred, but youre just paying for the color. I happen to love red factoring in yellow labs, but retrieving and temperament and can I sell some pups off a good, pure line, are more important than color.

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2341005
12/22/17 06:29 AM
12/22/17 06:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,174
Central Al
twaldrop4 Offline
10 point
twaldrop4  Offline
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Central Al
10/4 on black labs being the only real lab

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2341007
12/22/17 06:30 AM
12/22/17 06:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,174
Central Al
twaldrop4 Offline
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twaldrop4  Offline
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Central Al
And if you didn't care y'all my lab is superior people wouldn't bring this up every 3 weeks. And by the way I do not have a silver lab

Re: Breed ethics? [Re: ALMODUX] #2341310
12/22/17 11:00 AM
12/22/17 11:00 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,761
Marshall County
ALMODUX Offline OP
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ALMODUX  Offline OP
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Marshall County
LOL

REAL LABS:





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