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Re: TSS questions [Re: Yelp softly] #2294349
11/15/17 12:27 PM
11/15/17 12:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,954
Hampton Cove
foldemup Online content
14 point
foldemup  Online Content
14 point
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,954
Hampton Cove
Originally Posted By: Yelp softly
How do you compare 100 hits from one pellet versus 20 hits from a pellet of a different size? I don’t think you can have such a discussion without acknowledging that some of the “evidence” will be mostly anecdotal.


Ballistic gel testing....pretty sure it's already been done.


If you want to always win, never play anyone better than you!
Re: TSS questions [Re: foldemup] #2294360
11/15/17 12:42 PM
11/15/17 12:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,501
Central, Al
Bustinbeards Online content
Booner
Bustinbeards  Online Content
Booner
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,501
Central, Al
Originally Posted By: foldemup
Originally Posted By: Yelp softly
How do you compare 100 hits from one pellet versus 20 hits from a pellet of a different size? I don’t think you can have such a discussion without acknowledging that some of the “evidence” will be mostly anecdotal.


Ballistic gel testing....pretty sure it's already been done.


Ballistic gel linky


Originally Posted By: Wiley Coyote
Well, the way I see it is there's just too many assholes
On a good day there's a bunch of assholes in here. On a bad day there's too many assholes in here.
Re: TSS questions [Re: 3toe] #2294393
11/15/17 01:14 PM
11/15/17 01:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,206
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
Freak of Nature
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Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: 3toe
Originally Posted By: JUGHEAD
Originally Posted By: Yelp softly
Assuming we are comparing apples to apples, if a lead #4 and a TSS #6 are shot at the same velocity, they will carry the same amount of energy, PER PELLET. The difference really comes in to play because the smaller TSS pellets allow for more pellets on the target.
With all due respect, from an aerospace engineer, your reasoning is flawed. You are only considering muzzle velocity which really doesn't mean a whole lot since we don't shoot turkeys at 1 or 2 yards very often. The smaller shots sizes are significantly superior from an aerodynamic standpoint because they don't have all of that surface area drag to slow them down at such an exponential rate when compared to say a #4 lead. The second advantage to the smaller shot size is based upon the same premise. The smaller surface area significantly reduces drag (think FMJ bullet for comparison) when the shot enters the animal's skin which leads to less velocity bleed off on its way to bone (important because we are trying to break in his neck). The final advantage is how hard/strong the TSS shot is compared to lead. Lead deforms significantly upon impact (with each other going down the barrel as well as hitting something downrange) which hampers its ability to maintain its entry velocity and subsequently reduces the velocity/energy upon contact with bone (think FMJ ammo again).

When people talk about #4 lead being equivalent to #9 TSS, they are talking downrange (i.e. where it matters) and not at the muzzle. You are correct though that the 4th advantage is so many more pellets on target, significantly increasing the chance of breaking the neck at various yardages.


If you've ever met Jughead you'll agree he is definitely smarter than he looks.


Definitely.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: TSS questions [Re: 2Dogs] #2294417
11/15/17 01:27 PM
11/15/17 01:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,700
Pisgah, AL
bowtarist Offline
THE Octopus
bowtarist  Offline
THE Octopus
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,700
Pisgah, AL

Originally Posted By: 2Dogs
Originally Posted By: 3toe
Originally Posted By: JUGHEAD
Originally Posted By: Yelp softly
Assuming we are comparing apples to apples, if a lead #4 and a TSS #6 are shot at the same velocity, they will carry the same amount of energy, PER PELLET. The difference really comes in to play because the smaller TSS pellets allow for more pellets on the target.
With all due respect, from an aerospace engineer, your reasoning is flawed. You are only considering muzzle velocity which really doesn't mean a whole lot since we don't shoot turkeys at 1 or 2 yards very often. The smaller shots sizes are significantly superior from an aerodynamic standpoint because they don't have all of that surface area drag to slow them down at such an exponential rate when compared to say a #4 lead. The second advantage to the smaller shot size is based upon the same premise. The smaller surface area significantly reduces drag (think FMJ bullet for comparison) when the shot enters the animal's skin which leads to less velocity bleed off on its way to bone (important because we are trying to break in his neck). The final advantage is how hard/strong the TSS shot is compared to lead. Lead deforms significantly upon impact (with each other going down the barrel as well as hitting something downrange) which hampers its ability to maintain its entry velocity and subsequently reduces the velocity/energy upon contact with bone (think FMJ ammo again).

When people talk about #4 lead being equivalent to #9 TSS, they are talking downrange (i.e. where it matters) and not at the muzzle. You are correct though that the 4th advantage is so many more pellets on target, significantly increasing the chance of breaking the neck at various yardages.


If you've ever met Jughead you'll agree he is definitely smarter than he looks.


Definitely.


I'm in agreement as well

Re: TSS questions [Re: Bustinbeards] #2294449
11/15/17 02:10 PM
11/15/17 02:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,778
Huntsville
JUGHEAD Offline
Booner
JUGHEAD  Offline
Booner
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Posts: 11,778
Huntsville
Originally Posted By: Bustinbeards
Anecdotal. Everybody knows shooting ballistic gel to measure penetration is hogwash the ammo manufacturers have been feeding us for decades. grin


"The only reason I shoot a 3.5" shell for turkeys is because they don't make a 4" one." - t123winters
Re: TSS questions [Re: ALredbone] #2294463
11/15/17 02:15 PM
11/15/17 02:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,018
Hartselle Al.
n2deer Offline
Old Mossy Horns
n2deer  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
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Posts: 16,018
Hartselle Al.
Damn you guys can make it hard on yourselves sometimes.


Do you want to hear him gobble, or do you want to kill him.
Re: TSS questions [Re: ALredbone] #2294494
11/15/17 02:36 PM
11/15/17 02:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231
Central Alabama
Y
Yelp softly Offline
10 point
Yelp softly  Offline
10 point
Y
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231
Central Alabama
Some of you guys are better at scouring the internet than you are reading comprehension. The link was a forum about a guy with a ballistics software program. He was entering the penetration depth he wanted and the program spit out the effective distance.

Let’s say the program is dead nuts accurate. The closest comparison that can be made was #9 TSS and #5 lead where he had them both set to 1.5” of penetration. At the target distance (TSS was 13 yds further) the TSS is slower, and has less than half the energy that the lead #5 has. Until someone posts side by side ballistics gel results, it’s still anecdotal. Good try though.


"When there was no fowl, we ate crawdad, when there was no crawdad, we ate sand."

"YOU ATE SAND!" - Raising Arizona
Re: TSS questions [Re: Yelp softly] #2294529
11/15/17 03:12 PM
11/15/17 03:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,206
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
Freak of Nature
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Boxes Cove
Look on down the page at 7 1/2 lead V 7 1/2 TSS head to head. TSS penetrates 6 times deeper than lead at the same speed and distance.

Last edited by 2Dogs; 11/15/17 03:48 PM.


"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: TSS questions [Re: ALredbone] #2294797
11/15/17 06:16 PM
11/15/17 06:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 178
Gurley, AL
A
ALredbone Offline OP
3 point
ALredbone  Offline OP
3 point
A
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 178
Gurley, AL
Thanks guys!

Re: TSS questions [Re: ALredbone] #2294799
11/15/17 06:18 PM
11/15/17 06:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 178
Gurley, AL
A
ALredbone Offline OP
3 point
ALredbone  Offline OP
3 point
A
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 178
Gurley, AL
I see now why the strictly 3.5 12s are happily sending 20s down range

Re: TSS questions [Re: ALredbone] #2297928
11/18/17 03:18 PM
11/18/17 03:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,047
Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher Offline
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poorcountrypreacher  Offline
Booner
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Posts: 12,047
Sylacauga, AL
Originally Posted By: ALredbone
Do they carry enough weight down range when shooting smaller shot sizes?


No. The stuff is no good at all. Everyone should stick to lead and limit shots to 35 yards.

smile

YS, I think the best evidence for the penetrating ability of the tss 9s was the early research Hal did about a decade ago. He has numerous pics of holes in sheet metal from the 9s when #4 lead only dented it. I think the density is far more important than weight. #8 tss is equal to a size 6.4 lead pellet, but it penetrates miles better #6 lead.

The stuff is ideal for shooting turkeys more than any other game animal, imo. When shooting a turkey, a smart hunter wants to punch holes in his central nervous system, that is his head or neck. Punch a hole through his CNS and the turkey dies. Punch a bunch of holes in it and he doesn't even seem to flop much. Most people try to kill a deer with a bullet through the vitals, and TSS might not be the best choice for that.

TSS has been in use about a decade now and has killed thousands of turkeys. I think it is way past the anecdotal evidence level. I don't think there can be any doubt that it's the best shot available. What I think is still being discovered is the best shot size. I used mostly 8s for 7 years, but after 2 seasons of mostly 9s I believe the 9s are better for most situations. And it may be that even smaller sizes provide the ideal combination of pattern density and sufficient penetration.

In most situations, 50 yards is the limit I will shoot one and I can tell you for sure that 9s will whack one easily at that range.


All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
Re: TSS questions [Re: ALredbone] #2297935
11/18/17 03:27 PM
11/18/17 03:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,768
North Jackson
R
ridgestalker Offline
14 point
ridgestalker  Offline
14 point
R
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,768
North Jackson
9 and 9 1/2 will do just fine.


"The Heavens declare the glory of God;and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Pslam 19:1
Re: TSS questions [Re: ALredbone] #2298204
11/19/17 12:23 AM
11/19/17 12:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,584
Spanish Fort
TurkeyJoe Online content
10 point
TurkeyJoe  Online Content
10 point
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,584
Spanish Fort
ALredbone, this is not a decision to be taken lightly, or to be made by the ill informed. If you have some good turkey land, I will be happy to meet you there in the spring, and conduct a product demonstration smile


Micah 6:8
Re: TSS questions [Re: TurkeyJoe] #2298263
11/19/17 03:40 AM
11/19/17 03:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,206
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,206
Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: TurkeyJoe
ALredbone, this is not a decision to be taken lightly, or to be made by the ill informed. If you have some good turkey land, I will be happy to meet you there in the spring, and conduct a product demonstration smile


No need to drive 400 miles and leave a big ol' carbon foot print. Gurley is just down the road for me. Not to mention there's those NA mountains, flat lander could bust a lung. I'll be happy to demonstrate for my neighbor to the west. I'm just looking out for the environment and yer health. smile



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: TSS questions [Re: ALredbone] #2298419
11/19/17 06:11 AM
11/19/17 06:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,584
Spanish Fort
TurkeyJoe Online content
10 point
TurkeyJoe  Online Content
10 point
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,584
Spanish Fort
Dang decent of you dog, but that trip would be short compared to some of the stuff I do to kill em.


Micah 6:8
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