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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2293490
11/14/17 06:01 PM
11/14/17 06:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,018 Hartselle Al.
n2deer
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,018
Hartselle Al.
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Depends on what you would say down range is.
50-60 yards sure.
I try not to ever shoot farther than this. But it happens
Do you want to hear him gobble, or do you want to kill him.
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2293495
11/14/17 06:04 PM
11/14/17 06:04 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,562 Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,562
Tuscaloosa Co.
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I've only shot a couple with #9s. So far, I haven't been impressed.
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2293546
11/14/17 06:56 PM
11/14/17 06:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32,451 North Alabama
YEKRUT
Turkey Nut
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Turkey Nut
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32,451
North Alabama
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I’ve pulled some crazy stuff with tss the last 3 years or so. When you run out of breath and have to stop and rest on the way to one after the shot then you know it will work down range
Some men are mere hunters; others are turkey hunters. —Archibald Rutledge—
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: Pwyse]
#2293938
11/15/17 07:17 AM
11/15/17 07:17 AM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,502 Central, Al
Bustinbeards
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,502
Central, Al
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Are you guys hand loading these? Can you buy them in stores yet? yes and yes. apex ammo in Mississippi sells loaded shells
Originally Posted By: Wiley Coyote Well, the way I see it is there's just too many assholes On a good day there's a bunch of assholes in here. On a bad day there's too many assholes in here.
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2293944
11/15/17 07:21 AM
11/15/17 07:21 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
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9 TSS = 4 lead as far as kinetic energy or so the aerospace engineer says, lol. And it's very hard, armor piercing shotgun shot. Think about that. A 20 ga is just bout over kill. I've seen 9s shoot through the body at 50 plus yards , but they were ultra high BrentM velocity. I shot a Coyote at 35 long steps with 9s and most went through his neck and chest, exiting on the other side.
Last edited by 2Dogs; 11/15/17 09:51 AM.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2293957
11/15/17 07:31 AM
11/15/17 07:31 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231 Central Alabama
Yelp softly
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231
Central Alabama
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This is a difficult question to answer. Most answers will be anecdotal. I’m not going to disagree with the guys that use the stuff because their results speak for themselves.
Let’s look at it strictly from a mathematical perspective in an effort to compare apples to apples. The weight of a pellet is determined by the volume multiplied by the density. Lead is 11.34 grams per cubic centimeter while TSS can be as high as 18.5 grams per cubic centimeter. If you find a chart that shows shot size diameter, you can quickly calculate the weight of each. What you will find is that a TSS pellet weighs approximately the same as a lead pellet that is 2 sizes bigger. For example a #6 TSS weighs about the same as a #4 lead pellet.
Assuming we are comparing apples to apples, if a lead #4 and a TSS #6 are shot at the same velocity, they will carry the same amount of energy, PER PELLET. The difference really comes in to play because the smaller TSS pellets allow for more pellets on the target.
When you start to look at the really small TSS sizes like #9 and #10, the discussion then becomes one of more pellets making up for reduced energy. These loads are capable of putting hundreds of pellets in a bird.
"When there was no fowl, we ate crawdad, when there was no crawdad, we ate sand."
"YOU ATE SAND!" - Raising Arizona
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2293970
11/15/17 07:39 AM
11/15/17 07:39 AM
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,584 Spanish Fort
TurkeyJoe
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,584
Spanish Fort
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I don't have a scientific answer for you, but I can tell you that at 45 yds, a #9 TSS will carry a feather with it all the way through the breast till it hits the breastbone.
Micah 6:8
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: Yelp softly]
#2294151
11/15/17 09:44 AM
11/15/17 09:44 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,778 Huntsville
JUGHEAD
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,778
Huntsville
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Assuming we are comparing apples to apples, if a lead #4 and a TSS #6 are shot at the same velocity, they will carry the same amount of energy, PER PELLET. The difference really comes in to play because the smaller TSS pellets allow for more pellets on the target. With all due respect, from an aerospace engineer, your reasoning is flawed. You are only considering muzzle velocity which really doesn't mean a whole lot since we don't shoot turkeys at 1 or 2 yards very often. The smaller shots sizes are significantly superior from an aerodynamic standpoint because they don't have all of that surface area drag to slow them down at such an exponential rate when compared to say a #4 lead. The second advantage to the smaller shot size is based upon the same premise. The smaller surface area significantly reduces drag (think FMJ bullet for comparison) when the shot enters the animal's skin which leads to less velocity bleed off on its way to bone (important because we are trying to break in his neck). The final advantage is how hard/strong the TSS shot is compared to lead. Lead deforms significantly upon impact (with each other going down the barrel as well as hitting something downrange) which hampers its ability to maintain its entry velocity and subsequently reduces the velocity/energy upon contact with bone (think FMJ ammo again). Perhaps Hal or someone will show some pictures of shot penetrating ballistic gel to help drive those points home. I'm a little short on time or I would look some up. When people talk about #4 lead being equivalent to #9 TSS, they are talking downrange (i.e. where it matters) and not at the muzzle. You are correct though that the 4th advantage is so many more pellets on target, significantly increasing the chance of breaking the neck at various yardages.
Last edited by JUGHEAD; 11/15/17 10:02 AM.
"The only reason I shoot a 3.5" shell for turkeys is because they don't make a 4" one." - t123winters
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: JUGHEAD]
#2294174
11/15/17 09:55 AM
11/15/17 09:55 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,377 Helena
3toe
Talking Turkey
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Talking Turkey
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,377
Helena
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Assuming we are comparing apples to apples, if a lead #4 and a TSS #6 are shot at the same velocity, they will carry the same amount of energy, PER PELLET. The difference really comes in to play because the smaller TSS pellets allow for more pellets on the target. With all due respect, from an aerospace engineer, your reasoning is flawed. You are only considering muzzle velocity which really doesn't mean a whole lot since we don't shoot turkeys at 1 or 2 yards very often. The smaller shots sizes are significantly superior from an aerodynamic standpoint because they don't have all of that surface area drag to slow them down at such an exponential rate when compared to say a #4 lead. The second advantage to the smaller shot size is based upon the same premise. The smaller surface area significantly reduces drag (think FMJ bullet for comparison) when the shot enters the animal's skin which leads to less velocity bleed off on its way to bone (important because we are trying to break in his neck). The final advantage is how hard/strong the TSS shot is compared to lead. Lead deforms significantly upon impact (with each other going down the barrel as well as hitting something downrange) which hampers its ability to maintain its entry velocity and subsequently reduces the velocity/energy upon contact with bone (think FMJ ammo again). When people talk about #4 lead being equivalent to #9 TSS, they are talking downrange (i.e. where it matters) and not at the muzzle. You are correct though that the 4th advantage is so many more pellets on target, significantly increasing the chance of breaking the neck at various yardages. If you've ever met Jughead you'll agree he is definitely smarter than he looks.
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: 3toe]
#2294181
11/15/17 09:59 AM
11/15/17 09:59 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,778 Huntsville
JUGHEAD
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,778
Huntsville
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If you've ever met Jughead you'll agree he is definitely smarter than he looks. Which really ain't saying much because I'm awful dumb looking.
"The only reason I shoot a 3.5" shell for turkeys is because they don't make a 4" one." - t123winters
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2294224
11/15/17 10:21 AM
11/15/17 10:21 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231 Central Alabama
Yelp softly
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231
Central Alabama
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Again, I was trying to speak in terms of measurables, not anecdotal evidence. When folks suggest that #9 works as good lead #4 but have no measurable data to back that up, it’s anecdotal. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong. There’s a big difference in being wrong and having no proof.
I’m well aware that my comparison used muzzle velocity which would change down range. I’m not familiar with any shot shell manufacturer that lists velocities down range, probably because you’d shoot your chronograph to hell trying to measure it.. Secondly, I don’t disagree that smaller shot may have more ballistic advantage, but I’m not aware of that being measured in shot shells either. You make valid points in every statement you made. I’m simply saying that if you tell me that #9 TSS hits as hard as #4 lead and I suggest the #7 TSS is actually closer to #4 lead, neither of us will ever be proven right or wrong. How do you compare 100 hits from one pellet versus 20 hits from a pellet of a different size? I don’t think you can have such a discussion without acknowledging that some of the “evidence” will be mostly anecdotal.
"When there was no fowl, we ate crawdad, when there was no crawdad, we ate sand."
"YOU ATE SAND!" - Raising Arizona
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: Yelp softly]
#2294349
11/15/17 12:27 PM
11/15/17 12:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,956 Hampton Cove
foldemup
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,956
Hampton Cove
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How do you compare 100 hits from one pellet versus 20 hits from a pellet of a different size? I don’t think you can have such a discussion without acknowledging that some of the “evidence” will be mostly anecdotal. Ballistic gel testing....pretty sure it's already been done.
If you want to always win, never play anyone better than you!
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: foldemup]
#2294360
11/15/17 12:42 PM
11/15/17 12:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,502 Central, Al
Bustinbeards
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,502
Central, Al
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How do you compare 100 hits from one pellet versus 20 hits from a pellet of a different size? I don’t think you can have such a discussion without acknowledging that some of the “evidence” will be mostly anecdotal. Ballistic gel testing....pretty sure it's already been done. Ballistic gel linky
Originally Posted By: Wiley Coyote Well, the way I see it is there's just too many assholes On a good day there's a bunch of assholes in here. On a bad day there's too many assholes in here.
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: 3toe]
#2294393
11/15/17 01:14 PM
11/15/17 01:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
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Assuming we are comparing apples to apples, if a lead #4 and a TSS #6 are shot at the same velocity, they will carry the same amount of energy, PER PELLET. The difference really comes in to play because the smaller TSS pellets allow for more pellets on the target. With all due respect, from an aerospace engineer, your reasoning is flawed. You are only considering muzzle velocity which really doesn't mean a whole lot since we don't shoot turkeys at 1 or 2 yards very often. The smaller shots sizes are significantly superior from an aerodynamic standpoint because they don't have all of that surface area drag to slow them down at such an exponential rate when compared to say a #4 lead. The second advantage to the smaller shot size is based upon the same premise. The smaller surface area significantly reduces drag (think FMJ bullet for comparison) when the shot enters the animal's skin which leads to less velocity bleed off on its way to bone (important because we are trying to break in his neck). The final advantage is how hard/strong the TSS shot is compared to lead. Lead deforms significantly upon impact (with each other going down the barrel as well as hitting something downrange) which hampers its ability to maintain its entry velocity and subsequently reduces the velocity/energy upon contact with bone (think FMJ ammo again). When people talk about #4 lead being equivalent to #9 TSS, they are talking downrange (i.e. where it matters) and not at the muzzle. You are correct though that the 4th advantage is so many more pellets on target, significantly increasing the chance of breaking the neck at various yardages. If you've ever met Jughead you'll agree he is definitely smarter than he looks. Definitely.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: 2Dogs]
#2294417
11/15/17 01:27 PM
11/15/17 01:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,700 Pisgah, AL
bowtarist
THE Octopus
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THE Octopus
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,700
Pisgah, AL
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Assuming we are comparing apples to apples, if a lead #4 and a TSS #6 are shot at the same velocity, they will carry the same amount of energy, PER PELLET. The difference really comes in to play because the smaller TSS pellets allow for more pellets on the target. With all due respect, from an aerospace engineer, your reasoning is flawed. You are only considering muzzle velocity which really doesn't mean a whole lot since we don't shoot turkeys at 1 or 2 yards very often. The smaller shots sizes are significantly superior from an aerodynamic standpoint because they don't have all of that surface area drag to slow them down at such an exponential rate when compared to say a #4 lead. The second advantage to the smaller shot size is based upon the same premise. The smaller surface area significantly reduces drag (think FMJ bullet for comparison) when the shot enters the animal's skin which leads to less velocity bleed off on its way to bone (important because we are trying to break in his neck). The final advantage is how hard/strong the TSS shot is compared to lead. Lead deforms significantly upon impact (with each other going down the barrel as well as hitting something downrange) which hampers its ability to maintain its entry velocity and subsequently reduces the velocity/energy upon contact with bone (think FMJ ammo again). When people talk about #4 lead being equivalent to #9 TSS, they are talking downrange (i.e. where it matters) and not at the muzzle. You are correct though that the 4th advantage is so many more pellets on target, significantly increasing the chance of breaking the neck at various yardages. If you've ever met Jughead you'll agree he is definitely smarter than he looks. Definitely. I'm in agreement as well
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2294463
11/15/17 02:15 PM
11/15/17 02:15 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,018 Hartselle Al.
n2deer
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,018
Hartselle Al.
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Damn you guys can make it hard on yourselves sometimes.
Do you want to hear him gobble, or do you want to kill him.
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2294494
11/15/17 02:36 PM
11/15/17 02:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231 Central Alabama
Yelp softly
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231
Central Alabama
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Some of you guys are better at scouring the internet than you are reading comprehension. The link was a forum about a guy with a ballistics software program. He was entering the penetration depth he wanted and the program spit out the effective distance.
Let’s say the program is dead nuts accurate. The closest comparison that can be made was #9 TSS and #5 lead where he had them both set to 1.5” of penetration. At the target distance (TSS was 13 yds further) the TSS is slower, and has less than half the energy that the lead #5 has. Until someone posts side by side ballistics gel results, it’s still anecdotal. Good try though.
"When there was no fowl, we ate crawdad, when there was no crawdad, we ate sand."
"YOU ATE SAND!" - Raising Arizona
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: Yelp softly]
#2294529
11/15/17 03:12 PM
11/15/17 03:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
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Look on down the page at 7 1/2 lead V 7 1/2 TSS head to head. TSS penetrates 6 times deeper than lead at the same speed and distance.
Last edited by 2Dogs; 11/15/17 03:48 PM.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2297928
11/18/17 03:18 PM
11/18/17 03:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,053 Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,053
Sylacauga, AL
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Do they carry enough weight down range when shooting smaller shot sizes? No. The stuff is no good at all. Everyone should stick to lead and limit shots to 35 yards. YS, I think the best evidence for the penetrating ability of the tss 9s was the early research Hal did about a decade ago. He has numerous pics of holes in sheet metal from the 9s when #4 lead only dented it. I think the density is far more important than weight. #8 tss is equal to a size 6.4 lead pellet, but it penetrates miles better #6 lead. The stuff is ideal for shooting turkeys more than any other game animal, imo. When shooting a turkey, a smart hunter wants to punch holes in his central nervous system, that is his head or neck. Punch a hole through his CNS and the turkey dies. Punch a bunch of holes in it and he doesn't even seem to flop much. Most people try to kill a deer with a bullet through the vitals, and TSS might not be the best choice for that. TSS has been in use about a decade now and has killed thousands of turkeys. I think it is way past the anecdotal evidence level. I don't think there can be any doubt that it's the best shot available. What I think is still being discovered is the best shot size. I used mostly 8s for 7 years, but after 2 seasons of mostly 9s I believe the 9s are better for most situations. And it may be that even smaller sizes provide the ideal combination of pattern density and sufficient penetration. In most situations, 50 yards is the limit I will shoot one and I can tell you for sure that 9s will whack one easily at that range.
All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2297935
11/18/17 03:27 PM
11/18/17 03:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,768 North Jackson
ridgestalker
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,768
North Jackson
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9 and 9 1/2 will do just fine.
"The Heavens declare the glory of God;and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Pslam 19:1
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Re: TSS questions
[Re: ALredbone]
#2298419
11/19/17 06:11 AM
11/19/17 06:11 AM
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,584 Spanish Fort
TurkeyJoe
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,584
Spanish Fort
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Dang decent of you dog, but that trip would be short compared to some of the stuff I do to kill em.
Micah 6:8
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