With the various talk about these factors, it is safe to say our deer will never be as big as some from other states. So, what is an "average" sized buck? What do you think the actual average 4 1/2 year old native buck from Alabama will gross score?

Or, what do you consider to be a good, solid buck from Alabama?

Depends on where in the state you are located

100-110"

That's why I said average

This. I think when hunters in my neck of the woods start throwing out he'll go 150" which seems to be a common number have no idea or haven't seen many deer that big. I know I haven't.

I think 120 is kinda the magical number people are looking for

I think we sometimes have unrealistic expectations.

Last year, our club average for bucks that I think were 4 1/2+ (that were scored) was 115". We do a lot to try and help grow our deer.

I'm thinking 110" may not be too far off for a statewide average 4 1/2+ deer.

I'd say 75% of the 4 + year old deer in the state would be right at 100 inches and will never get over it

As far as body size goes, the farther you are from the equator, the larger mammals grow.

most of the places I've hunted in the last 20 years 4 year olds will go 120, some 130, some 110.

And I think the further south in the state you go the average will drop also. The majority of the bucks in south Alabama will never get to 120".

Most 4.5 year old 110" deer are probably only 2.5-3.5 years old.

For all bucks killed over 4.5 years old I would bet money it would be 115 +/- 5. In 90% of the state. There are a few isolated spots where there are still some big agriculture fields around that would average a little higher.

We have a lot of data on this from keeping harvest records and aging jawbones at our place. The majority of the 4 1/2 yr olds we have killed recently score in the 120s. Of course there are outliers, we have killed some that were 130+ and we even killed one that only scored 82" but was definitely 4 1/2 yrs old.

As has been said, it all depends on where you are hunting, but I would guess that statewide the average 4 1/2 yr old deer is about 110"

Based on our harvest records, I think only around 20% of our 4 1/2's will score 120"+. Most of the others probably fall between 110" and 115". We do have some good ones now and then. We had one young 10 pt to score around 134". It weighed 135 lbs and had a beautiful, symmetrical rack, with a 16" spread, 21 1/2 in main beams, 4 1/4 in bases, and long tines. Not sure of its age, but it had a "doe like" look to it's face. The guy that shot it says he messed up because he saw the rack and shot, and didn't notice how young it was.

Our biggest one killed so far was around 140, but I saw one a couple years ago that had to be mid 140's+. We had several guys see it and wow, what a deer.

4yr old alabama deer... Where!!

bama deer aren't 2.5,3.5,4.5 or 5.5... they are simply 2,3,4,5 etc..

At some point they are 2 1/2, 3 1/2, 4 1/2 or 5 1/2, and that usually occurs during deer season.

Haha, there are a few out there.

We had one this year with its teeth worn down next to nothing. It was obviously on its way down. It only weighed 127 lbs, but had crazy palmation and very short tines, kind of like a moose. It only scored around 108"

yeah i rarely see deer born in December

Exactly!!!!

The deer's gestation period is 200 to 205 days, lets say. Does bred in late December will be born in mid July.

So, by the time January rolls around, they will be 1/2 a year old. The next January, they will be 1 1/2 and so on.

That is why most folks refer to deer being 4 1/2 years old, and simply not 4, because they would turn 4 in July and would be 4 1/2 in January.

Kinda off topic but Ive got a friend in the deer breeding industry. He relates to me that nutrition is maybe 10-15% of the equation as far as growing big bucks. This guy routinely has 1.5 year old deer with gross scores of greater than 200 inches.

With deer that large I assumed they were pouring the protein/hormones/whatever to them to make these monster racks and he says that's not the case and its all about good genetics, getting the right doe and the right buck together. His most important deer are the proven does which have year in and out produced big offspring.

Kinda hurt my feelings living here in Alabama cause you can have a place and pour tons of money on feed and fields and nutrition and if you don't have the right genes you're never going to consistently grow really big deer.

Exactly what I was thinking.

The only way have more 4- and 5-year-old deer in Alabama is to not kill them when they are 2 and 3 years old.

...which won't likely happen on public land...

One thing I have noticed is that once they reach 4, they become more like ghosts...

Sounds to me like you have a good place to hunt then. There will always be some bucks that are large or small compared to the rest of their age class, but having 140 inch deer running around is definitely a good sign of the potential your place has. The toughest part of management where i hunt is letting a 120-130" 3yr old walk when I know the majority of the folks around us are gonna shoot that deer. But that's what you gotta do if you want that deer to have a chance at making it.

You got that right. We have a couple guys in our club that would shoot a 120" deer regardless of age. My son passed on one and ended up not killing a buck this year, because he didn't get to hunt too much. We do have some really good deer running around and not a lot of pressure on them.

that there is called line breeding, an it doesn't naturally occur in the wild, a 1.5 year old more times than not is a spike or small 3 or 4 point maybe if hes born early enough an hes got a plethora of high protein food an a low stress environment he might even be a little basket rack of some kind. a 200in 1.5 year old deer does not exist outside breeder pens. theres probly a few exceptions in places that grow some freaks of nature, and by exception I mean grow like a 130in 1yr old. also deer breeders do a little more than just have "good" genetics, they... engineer so to speak and give them... hmmmm supplements. They are "scientific deer" anyway. if you take time to manage habitat and do all you can to improve your deer herd and allow them to live 5.5-8.5 years old.... I think it might scare you to death how big some Alabama deer could be. heck id say on average most anywhere in Alabama, deer given the ability to grow to their fullest potential could reach 130- 140 (just a guess by the way). thats a respectable deer by any standard.. anywhere. Alabama gets a bad rap on the genetic factor because people don't slay 180 inch deer everywhere like they do in the Midwest, when the real problem is we don't let our deer live long enough or we might be able to kill deer as big or at least comparable to other southeastern states.

Im not doubting your friend or anything but i think nutrition and age has a lot more to do with antler size here is a 15 minute video that agrees with me

Nutrition vs genetics

The average size for a Mobile County 4.5 year old buck would be around 100".

Genetics will always be a factor, however it is a smaller percentage of the equation than most people realize. Age and nutrition are FAR more important, but there is even more to it than that. You don't really see the true genetic potential until after a deer has had proper nutrition through it's entire life (and, of course, until it reaches a mature age class). Fawns born to mothers that have had excellent nutrition get a head start, and if they then go on to have excellent nutrition throughout the years, then you see the true genetic potential in some of them. I've seen a lot of hunters give up on the idea of managing their deer (through nutrition and restricting harvest) after a year or two because they claim they don't see any results, but you really aren't going to get the maximum results until about 5 years in when your 5 year old bucks have been raised on good nutrition from the time they were fawns. No, they won't all be 140" deer, but some of them will be!

Man, these dang deer farmers sure are wasting a ton of money on genetics!!!!

Heck, all they need to do is fence in a SW AL pine thicket, fertilize the blackberries, greenbriar and privet, plant a few 1/2 acre food plots....and then wait.....and wait....and wait.....

Refer to the link I posted above

Please refer to any of the Breeding Farms for whitetail deer as my rebuttal.

I am sorry.
But, there is nowhere around that 'native' deer are approaching, and evens surpassing, 200" of antler as yearlings EXCEPT for the high-end deer farms that have studied and purchased the superior genetics.

Genetics is third in importance in free ranging herd ONLY because it is the one thing you cannot change or improve(in most cases). Nutrition is #1, age is #3.

In my opinion genetics in number one if you are trying to grow BIG bucks, but ya gotta start with good genetics in your herd. You can feed a scrawny sand hill deer all you want and he won't get to 150" at any age. You can improve the genetic expression of your herd thru nutrition over many generations UP TO A POINT.

100% in agreement, Troy!

There is very little that can be done to manipulate genetics in a free-ranging herd.
BUT, to deny or belittle the importance of genetics as a determine factor in antler development because of that is just silly.

Thanks for posting that. That video was very informative. It was what I suspected.

BhamFred hit the nail on the head and was the intent of my original post.

Until recently I had held this pie in the sky notion that if I was able (and not saying I ever will but that is the plan one day) to acquire a decent amount of property in Alabama, wherever that be, if I treated it like a Whitetail properties type piece of property and planted year round and attempted to shoot only mature bucks that I would one day able to have opportunities at 140-150 type deer on a consistent basis.

Unfortunately, I just don't think that is a viable option in many areas of Alabama.

The way I look at it and this is very broad, deer cannot be much different than humans. If a 6' 6" fella marries and a 5' 10" woman they are more likely to have a 6' 6" son then if a 5'8" fella marries a 5' 2" woman. It gotta be similar with a genetically superior buck and doe versus a specimen of inferior genetics.

I have no doubt (and the video posted about was very informative) that nutrition and age structure play a huge role in shooting larger whitetail. But it seems if you don't have good genetics to begin with you can only expect so much from your areas deer herd in regards to opportunities at trophy whitetail.

Regardless where everyone opinions lie, this has been a very informative thread that I have enjoyed reading.

spot on bamacamp.

one can for sure improve the expression of the genetic base line in your herd. No doubt about it, feed em good food, and let em grow. Do it again next year...and the next. Antler size and body size will improve each year some.

There ain't no silver bullet....

In regard to deer genetics in this state, it is such a melting pot if you go back to the reintroduction efforts over the last century. Deer from Virginia, Texas, Wisconsin, Georgia, Michigan, etc. were released into this state. Deer in Bankhead NF came from Wisconsin or Michigan IIRC, and everyone knows the size and quality of bucks taken from there.

I'd rather have good genetics and less nutrition. Than visa versa. If it aint in the blood to start with nutrition and age is only gonna get you so far. Same with any other animal really whether your talking bout hunting dogs or race horses you pay for the bloodline. Thats where it all starts.
I have heard from deer farmers, gamedog breeders, and game chicken breeders that the female throws better genetics than the male. But having good genes on both sides is even better.

Agreed.

I think good Genetics is the reason you still see the occasional Freak Nasty Buck in low quality habitat, Some times everything just lines up right and they survive 4 years

Here's some of our Selma deer at the feeder by my father's house. They're bout the best we get on camera for our 2.5-3.5 year olds. We have some smaller what we identify as 3.5 year old deer. The 2 8pts with the racks outside their ears is probably the highest scoring bucks we have on camera. The one with one brow tine could be 4.5. There used to be bucks back there that topped 150" and we would see one every year back in the 90s that would be of that caliber. Last decade, you would maybe see one, once in a blue moon. Haven't seen a 140" deer back there in going on 4 years now. That nice 8 is getting my hopes up though. The buck in the last pic is dead. He was 3.5. Scored 115 B&C. There used to be 400 acres close to us that was farmland but of course it is now all pines. It used to be corn & beans. All the rest of the farmland within reach of these deer is now cow pastures. This is not even half of the bucks we have on camera. In my opinion there's just too many mouths to feed and not enough grub to allow bucks to grow the inches of antler they used to. I even noticed deer eating popcorn seeds from a Chinese tallow tree this year.
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In 1978, there was a sure enough Boone and Crockett buck that bedded about 150-200 yards from where this feeder is now. That buck is what made my father start hunting deer and is the very reason why I'm a hunter. There have been several 140" deer killed around here in the past, but not so many lately. These bucks we have on camera now will never reach B&C, a few may touch 130 in their lifetime, but we are definitely not looking at a genetic structure we used to have....not by a long shot...So where does that leave us? There were potential record book deer here in the past. My uncle, who was a taxidermist in Selma for decades, and my father were pretty good judges of deer in the field. Pops used to keep me informed of all the big bucks killed around the area. For a while, there usually wasn't a really big buck killed in Dallas County that we didn't know about because if my uncle didn't have it, Mark Mims did. The genetics are still around. We just have to bring the nutrition level back to the point we used to have.....and at least in this area, get the population down to a level that the land can develop the genetics that already exists. Now in Baldwin County where I hunt, that population already is at a capacity now that bucks can show their full potential.....but 20,000 acres of Pine plantations and gallberries won't allow a deer to express his full potential.

I don't put a lot of weight in what the deer farmers do or say. They have low stress levels (yes, stress makes a difference), targeted breeding, worming, nutrition... the best environment possible.

We free-range hunters (you could not pay me to hunt high fence, but that's me) can't control genetics so I don't even worry about genetics.

The study by Eric Michel of Mississippi State University says all I need to know which is what the QDMA has been saying.

Worry about what you can control. Age and nutrition!!! Habitat Enhancement just takes some work and a "want to learn mentality" and letting immature bucks walk . Shoot mature bucks, no matter what his antlers score!

At some point in a hunter's life, conservation and mgmt should take the lead.

Very few hunters can do full blown habitat management due to factors beyond their control. Mainly, they don't own their hunting land. Everyone can do some but not all out habitat enhancement.