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Re: Cost of replanting pines? [Re: turkey247] #1996401
01/19/17 07:00 AM
01/19/17 07:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,609
Alabama
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dirkdaddy Online content
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dirkdaddy  Online Content
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Joined: Sep 2013
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Alabama
Originally Posted By: turkey247
Originally Posted By: dirkdaddy
Seems every QDMA article or article on timber production in regards to creating good wildlife habitat, all reccomends strongly against herbicide treatment.


Link to a story?

Depending on the treatment of course, but this is not true. The wildlife sector is mostly pro-herbicide. Selective herbicide used the correct way is a great tool for habitat management.

https://www.qdma.com/dont-fear-reaper-timber-harvest-good-deer/

Specifically this section:

When a clearcut or opening is first planted in pines for timber production, quality deer habitat is the result – for a few years. Unless herbicides are used to prevent them, early successional plants will produce dense cover and forage among the young pine seedlings. Then the pine trees meet, darkening the ground, and soon nothing is being produced in this stand except pine straw and shade. In this stage between planting and timber harvest, many landowners turn the pine straw into cash, but if your goal is producing high-quality wildlife habitat, dense mature pine plantations are mostly wildlife voids. They are empty zones that deer and turkeys sometimes pass through but do not use (see the photo above, taken at our farm, to see what I’m talking about). - See more at: https://www.qdma.com/dont-fear-reaper-timber-harvest-good-deer/#sthash.K5MsLbry.dpu

Things that grow in the ground are good for deer. Herbicide treatment prevents that growth. I guess it's a "weigh your options" type deal, whether you want good initial timber growth or good initial natural browse for deer and that comes up in a clear cut.

Last edited by dirkdaddy; 01/19/17 07:01 AM.
Re: Cost of replanting pines? [Re: Big Buck Video] #1996412
01/19/17 07:06 AM
01/19/17 07:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 9,753
The Boonies a.k.a. Pickens cou...
300gr Offline
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300gr  Offline
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The Boonies a.k.a. Pickens cou...
You will still have browse for deer if you spray before planting. It may take a year or two but they will have something to eat


Two roads diverged in the woods and I took the one with deep ruts,hills and mud.It may be bumpy but WHAT A RIDE!
Re: Cost of replanting pines? [Re: Big Buck Video] #1996429
01/19/17 07:16 AM
01/19/17 07:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231
Central Alabama
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Yelp softly Offline
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Central Alabama
I didn't read "don't use them" in the article above. It just says a clear cut will have browse unless you used herbicide to prevent certain plants. It's my understanding from reading herbicide labels that Garlon (triclopyr) is not very active in the soil and Arsenal (imazypyr) does not affect legumes such as blackberries. In short, even if herbicide is applied, some types of browse will still grow. I am not aware of any herbicide that effectively kills everything.


"When there was no fowl, we ate crawdad, when there was no crawdad, we ate sand."

"YOU ATE SAND!" - Raising Arizona
Re: Cost of replanting pines? [Re: Big Buck Video] #1996551
01/19/17 08:40 AM
01/19/17 08:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,779
LASW
turkey247 Offline
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I need to take some pics of some average 3 year old plantation this Spring, and re-visit this thread. The initial herbicide used to give the pines a clean start is almost a distant memory when it comes to available browse.

Like someone stated, imazapyr (Arsenal), widely used to control hardwoods, does not kill legumes - which is highly preferred browse.

Also, a lot of herbaceous weed control is going to a banded application, which allows free herbaceous growth in the middle of rows from a very early stage. That has been applauded and pushed by the wildlife sector.

Re: Cost of replanting pines? [Re: Big Buck Video] #1996998
01/19/17 03:09 PM
01/19/17 03:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,051
Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher Offline
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Sylacauga, AL
For 200 acres, I'd listen to bwhunter and plant longleaf. You can probably get cost shares to pay about half of it, and they will likely make you use Arsenal before planting to control hardwood. Don't do this unless you are willing to put it on a burn rotation; longleaf needs to be burned, but this just helps your wildlife. A young longleaf plantation treated with Arsenal before planting will produce lots of food in even the first year.

Another option if you are mainly in it for wildlife is to site prep with bulldozers instead of using herbicides. This was standard practice in 60s and 70s and gave us great hunting. It did result in a lot of sweetgums and water oaks in places, but they are worth more than the pines in many situations. Still, from about year 5 until first thinning, hunting won't be all that great. Longleaf is better for wildlife, but requires more work and probably less income over a short rotation. Good luck!


All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
Re: Cost of replanting pines? [Re: Big Buck Video] #1997350
01/19/17 06:26 PM
01/19/17 06:26 PM
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Posts: 20,017
PDL, Fl
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timbercruiser Offline
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What does a longleaf pine tree do for wildlife that a loblolly doesn't?

Re: Cost of replanting pines? [Re: timbercruiser] #1997403
01/19/17 07:11 PM
01/19/17 07:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,051
Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher Offline
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Originally Posted By: timbercruiser
What does a longleaf pine tree do for wildlife that a loblolly doesn't?


You can start a regular burning program for them long before you can safely burn loblolly. But you knew that. Economics of planting longleaf may not pay off as well as loblolly if you are only considering timber value, but OP said wildlife was main interest. A recently burned 5 year old longleaf stand can be heavily used by turkeys; a loblolly stand that age not so much.

But a lot depends on site and the era you live in. I think I would get most timber value on my hill land to plant loblolly and come back 20 years later and clear-cut it. But that's no fun. smile


All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
Re: Cost of replanting pines? [Re: Big Buck Video] #1997640
01/20/17 04:36 AM
01/20/17 04:36 AM
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PDL, Fl
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timbercruiser Offline
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So except for a future potential red-cockheaded woodpecker tree it doesn't do anything for wildlife, it is the other money you spend. I would rather have a good faster growing loblolly on most sites than a longleaf, just leave a few wildlife openings along with the drains. Deer will bed and utilize loblolly also. If it wasn't for the NRCS money most longleaf wouldn't be planted.

Re: Cost of replanting pines? [Re: timbercruiser] #1997967
01/20/17 08:28 AM
01/20/17 08:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,051
Sylacauga, AL
poorcountrypreacher Offline
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Sylacauga, AL
Originally Posted By: timbercruiser
So except for a future potential red-cockheaded woodpecker tree it doesn't do anything for wildlife, it is the other money you spend. I would rather have a good faster growing loblolly on most sites than a longleaf, just leave a few wildlife openings along with the drains. Deer will bed and utilize loblolly also. If it wasn't for the NRCS money most longleaf wouldn't be planted.


Anyone planting longleaf is gonna have been dead a long time before those woodpeckers start using them. Both pines provide a place for turkeys to roost, but it doesn't take a lot of them to provide that service. Squirrels feed on the cones of both, but you are right, neither tree in itself does much for wildlife.

It's the frequent burning that separates the longleaf ecosystem from a loblolly plantation. You could come close to providing the same wildlife habitat by just burning your land every couple years and have no trees at all on it, but then you get zero income ever. I prefer to try to restore the land to the native species and eventually have some economic gain as well.

But to each his own. Loblolly farming on short rotation will provide most income on many sites. We did not kill a turkey on my place for a 7 year period while loblolly plantation was young. That doesn't have to happen with longleaf.


All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
Re: Cost of replanting pines? [Re: Big Buck Video] #1998062
01/20/17 09:50 AM
01/20/17 09:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,640
Sweet Home Alabama
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hosscat Offline
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Sweet Home Alabama
I have piles of briars growing my clearcut that was sprayed, even the very next summer. My oldest block has seedlings that are 4 years old, and there is browse everywhere.

I would have loved to go the long leaf route, so I could start burning much earlier. I have never burned any loblolly pines until after the first thinning. But loblollies have a better ROI, I think

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