Didn't want to sidesswipe BigT's timber thread but I have a question:

When you guys who cut timber or those who have had it cut agree on the contract, is it typical to have in the contract or include some clause about post-cutting cleanup and such?

Some of the posters on BigT's thread mentioned their property (or the property they hunted) having been torn up badly, roads messed up and whatnot.

Is this something the owner and timber crew can agree on to satisfaction in some way before signing the deal? Roads must be "returned to usable-drivable conditions" or "trash piles (brush, limbs) must be in x-area(s) only" and whatnot?

I'm under the impression that almost anything can be put in the contract. That being said, you're going to pay for it with a lower payment from the timber harvest.

What yelp said. I'd also like to add that if you were to have in the contract that roads should be returned to drivable condition, that that would be extremely vague and you may still walk away a little disappointed.

I guess drivable would be what the landowner specifies and/or wants, most likely for at least a 4WD truck if not 2WD. No giant ruts, blowouts, etc., left from big trucks and/or tractors.

Yelp hit the nail on the head.

I would say one of the biggest problem or issue is unhealthy expectations by landowners. Some think they ought to get a 2 lane graveled highway without paying for it.

The best thing to do as a landowner is layout expectations and intention to the forester or logger prior to signing anything(and certainly prior to the cutter rolling of the low boy) so everybody is on the same page

Yeah, well, that's silly of course. Some would think that, though, I'm sure.

Put whatever is near and dear to you in the contract. The only folks that think a logging site looks good are those making $. Landowners that haven't been around logging can get a heck of a shock on a good site.

Collect a performance deposit on the roads and the condition to be returned in.

If the roads, turnouts and other things in the contract are not cleaned up, the deposit is not given back.

The main thing is to get a reputable crew to do the work. Someone offering to pay a little more, if they do a sorry job, hurts you in the long and short run.

God Bless,
David B.

Have it in the contract no excessive rutting and existing roads and culverts are to be left in good usable condition.. If not it could cost you plenty to get it back to decent shape.

I'd retain 20% at least to get my roads back to where I wanted them.

Every contract that I've ever seen included language for the roads to be 'in as good of condition or better' within a certain time. Plus, here is a performance deposit to secure that provision.


Now, there are still a number of buyers who purchase timber with a hand shake agreement. But those are few and far between.

That's what was in my contract and six months later I had to raise hell with my forester to get them usable again. Apparently they felt no access to fields or the woods rd I had was acceptable.

We had about 80 acres cut on the land I hunt this past May. Got the email that the work would be done in the next 2 months and here is the map of where we are cutting. " We may pick a few trees within about 20 yards of the area indicated".
The next week, Memorial Day weekend, we get the call that they are cutting and we had to move all stands and or foot bridges, that weekend! Yes they were cutting on the Holiday.
We were just there looking at what we needed to move and we're assured we had several weeks......
We made a haul as_ run and moved and or flagged everything in the mapped area. We go down after they finish and found cutting well outside of the marked area or 20 yard fudge zone, one foot bridge and one Milleium ladder stand 200 yards outside demolished!
Called the forester and left messages, no call returned. Sent emails with pictures, he finally replied, "we can't control trees when they fall"!
I am a family guest on this property so drama for the family is bad juju, pushing the forester to pay is not good for future hunting rights
Needless to say get it writing and keep a substantial retainage.

5 gallon hydraulic fluid jugs

They will fix the roads when they are done. My landowner has always been good about holding them accountable for that, but until they are through it is going to be ruff even with a 4x4.

Ain't that the truth, good lawd those fellers run through some fluid. Never understood why they don't buy it in 55 gal drums.

property behind my house is two tracts, owned by same company. all land encompassed in those two tracts is divided into thirds by creeks. best right of way to the middle of the land is through my yard via my driveway. lets just say the pooch (me) got screwed on the first cutting back around '08. they never fixed my driveway or my culvert. i ended up calling the county to fix my culvert and pete fixed the driveway with the tractor and boxblade. i ate the cost of the rock and paid his brother to deliver it. had to stay on the driver's azzes (log trucks) about flying down the driveway at the house and fought the dust dragons for a month. verbal agreement - never again.

second time around, i made sure to have a contract to roll through my property and bring things back to their original state. think they cut again in '13 and '14. skidder got a game camera - i ate that one but shouldn't have. they had finished in the area and i put the camera back out. they decided to use the area again to drag the logs up into the area on the backside of a food plot. they got the camera going to the back of the plot. they caught a double man ladderstand that was flagged with pink tape that could be seen from outerspace. skidder driver said the tree he brought up was real big and the limbs were big as smaller trees. one of the limbs caught the ladder and twisted it around the tree. they paid for that one, not full price 'cause i bought it and let them reimburse me.

i had to put out trash cans or they would have left their breakfast/lunch garbage everywhere. hydraulic fluid buckets were everywhere and they got most of those. all toll, there were 3 different crews that worked the last cutting and the first crew in there, ended his business on this contract - it retired him.

got full payment for my driveway and used everybit of the money to bring in trucks of sandy clay base and also several trucks of b-base bahama rock.

the loggers would come in early and stay late but it's just something to deal with.

what was left of a stealth cam (battery box was slightly crushed but still usable, just not waterproof anylonger):




i was sitting in a tripod and took this picture early one morning.


they parked this in front of the shooting house for a couple of days.

Geez, VT. A story like that makes me almost want to burn everything.

And they parked that in front of the stand on purpose. Damned well knew what they were doing.


SECOND QUESTION:

With these buffer zones and/or 20-foot 'fudge zones' they have, do y'all go out during the cutting and check on these areas? Put up any kind of flagging tape or spray paint like blaze orange to signify the boundary?

Reminds me of building our house and advice I got: go there every day to walk, look, make notes and talk with the contractor.

You can put anything you want to in a timber contract, if the buyer has a problem with your request he can either agree to abide or you can contract with someone else. If your waterways have limbs and crap in them that interfere with the water drainage and they won't clean it up then call the Alabama Forestry Commission. Same thing with the trash and 5 gallon buckets, if they leave them and won't clean it up then call the Alabama Forestry Commission.

This is the first I've heard of a fudge zone. Never seen that in a contract.

The area is defined before hand. Sometimes flagged bust most of the time painted. Most forest certifications require periodic compliance checks during harvesting. Industry standard is one check per week.

This was what prompted my second question about the boundaries.

I'd be livid if this happened, especially after having flagged-sprayed the boundary lines.

As for controlling trees where they fall, isn't that the skill a good timber crew has that you're (in part) paying for? Seems like if possible they would want to cut trees to make the rest of the crew's work faster, more efficient and such.

I'm with rebelman, never heard of a fudge zone. You cut to the line. There is a line for a reason.

the timber behind my house was marked (flagged) by a survey crew. it should be marked by the forester before cutting - normally, spray paint will define the line. a good crew can put a tree where it needs to go when felling.

when the crew was working close to my house, i talked with the rep from the company buying the timber and made a deal with him to remove some pines from my yard. in exchange for the timber, when the dozer man came to fix the roads, he would clear some property line for me. i still lost in the end of this deal but i got some pines removed. they all went to the lumber mill in mobile, not to the chip mill in cantonment or to the pole mill.

the dozer man did a fine job with the water bars and breaks and fixed a bunch of leftover stuff from year's prior. the road was real nice for the first year.

Biggest problem we have is them leaving tops all in the secondary roads and littering.

You would think the map and marker tape would have saved our stuff.....just cover your self and hold them accountable.
The trash from the crews and the lack of accountability reminds me a lot of GC's!

We've had a lot of cutting on our club land in the past few years. They have been fairly good about maintaining/fixing the roads, however they have DEMOLISHED every green field in their cutting area. They have left large ruts, many many limbs, bark, and wood, etc on the fields. They did a pretty good job in protecting ladder stands near the boundaries and the shooting houses on the fields. Sure am glad when they finish and get out!

We have a standard contract we go by. Everything from road conditions, to fires, to trash, what can be cut and not cut, etc. If it we have an easement to our property, they have to get their own, has always ended up being the same as ours but hopefully removes us from dealing with a problem on someone elses property. It is bidded out. They receive a copy of the contract well before the bid date. If they don't like it, don't bid.

As far as the 5 gal. buckets of hydraulic fluid, just fix your dang leaks. Today, probably to wet in some places they are cutting. Good day to fix equipment.

A subject close to my heart because the forest products industry the food on my family's table. As with any profession their are good and bad. A few things that anyone associated with a timber harvest (landowner or lease holder) should keep in mind:

1. Landowners- always have a written contract and include a performance bond in the contract. As others have stated any special provisions should be spelled out here (road conditions, food plot usage, a map with well defined harvest boundaries, timing, required notifications etc...). All come with potential cost for the contractor so it extra ordinary requests can impact your timber income.

2. It is very difficult to see and judge distance when operating heavy equipment in thick woods. Logging is dangerous. Remove all your portable stands, cameras etc... you may know the woods like the back of your hand but the logging crew doesn't.

3. Heavy equipment and log trucks are rough on roads. Don't expect your roads to be returned to normal usable condition until the harvest is completed. Keep in mind that many times the logging crew doesn't do the road work (it is handled by a separate road contractor). It can take time and the right weather conditions before road work is completed.

4. There are literally thousands of tons of mostly unusable debris generated during a logging operation and it will take time for this organic matter to decompose. Which is what you want to maintain soil quality.

5. Have realistic expectations. Logging margins are thin and they don't get paid until products are delivered to the mill. They aren't landscaping crews that get paid by the hour to manicure your lawn. Time, production and efficiency are money. Loggers often have big payments for all that equipment (sometimes 7 figures).

Finally please keep in mind the forest industry is part of what makes our country great. Mostly hardworking folks who provide raw materials the go into real products that make all of our lives better. It is perhaps the single largest industry in our state, provides thousands of jobs and gives many of us access to hunting land that we might not otherwise have.

Sorry for the long post but as stated above the forest industry puts food on my table and I've dedicated nearly my whole adult life to it.

Loggers don't care about your grasspatches, stands, cameras, shooting houses or anything else. All they wanna do is make a fortune off your property. Also they work holidays because they don't pay their men to be off nor do they give a chitt about their men, so while they are working holidays you are off on trying to hunt they are riding around on some wore out azz equipment trying to make a very few dollars to support themselves and family if they have any. And another thing look at what the owners drive and ride in and live in, and they claim no money is in logging, my azz.

Thanks for your insights, ALDawg!

VT - did you own the land they were cutting?

I've never been part of a contract that didn't say roads are to be returned to present condition. They usually do ok on the main roads, but firelanes and secondary roads are always gonna be messed up to some extent. Back in the 90s I could write most anything into a contact and people would still bid on it. Now, it is difficult to find anyone to cut my timber at all. Try to get a performance bond on a small tract and that will probably mean the timber doesn't get cut.

Still, it they are cutting your land you can always fuss and complain and get some kinda results. Where I have the biggest problems is when loggers for someone else need to cross my property to cut a tract belonging to someone else. Loggers don't pay too much attention to the landowner; they don't pay any attention to someone who is not the landowner.

I've often said I have a give and take relationship with one of the paper companies in my area - I give and they take.

It's just part of the timber business. Might as well accept it.

They trespassed on you to get to someone else's property?

And this is common? How the heck does this happen and nothing is done about it?

Ouch !

I cannot stress enough that any business dealing should be handled in writing with very clear expectations...this includes temporary access. Keep in mind all persons "see" and remember specifics differently. In many occasions we have used video to document road conditions prior to using a road so that all parties can protect their interests.

I'm sorry so many folks have such a bad opinion of our industry. I can't change that. But to address Reloader79's comments. We work holidays because we "have to" not because we want to. Being in the woods isn't a hobby it's my living. Believe me when I say I'd much rather be with my family or hunting If loggers were "making a fortune" I can assure you there would be no need to work weekends and holidays. Not real sure if I should have empathy for someone whose weekend or holiday hunt is disrupted because I have to be at work? But I do because I know how important it is to most of use on this board including myself. Most individuals couldn't sleep at night if they carried as much debt to run their business as loggers do. There's no guaranteed pay check. If you don't produce you don't get paid and you don't get forgiveness for that 7 figure debt.

Those nice trucks you see are a business expense. Not quite the same as a personal vehicle. Most of the folks I know will buy a nice truck because they have customers who ride with them AND it's not unusual to put 60K work miles on a vehicle.

All professions have bad apples that spoil the bunch. And the reality is money is the key driver. If the money was easy to come by many of the things that people have problems with wouldn't happen.

Video is a good idea. Great tip.

Lord help. Loggers are like farmers. They have to work when Mother Nature allows them to work.

Money drives everything ALDog. I know lots of loggers and owners of logging companies and I know how they operate and pay. It's all a big tax write off in the end game. If there wasn't big dollars in it then how do they afford the 200-300k pieces of equipment? and million dollar homes, boats, side by sides , you name it and some of them got it. You may pull the wool over some folks eyes but not me ole buddy. And they expect the poor folks working for them to work from daylight to dark with minimum pay and 0 benefits or holidays.

From my experience with loggers is worked out like this. The timber buyer blows a ton of smoke to get on the property, they wont make a mess and fix it if they do etc. Then he cuts you a check and sends the logging outfit in there. And thats where not one shat is given any more. Once they get what they wanted they're out and your left with the mess and damage. From what I've seen you have a few good loggers and timber buyers but 90% of them fall into the above mentioned category. Which i put in the same boat as lawyers and car sales men. My grandpaw had a crew come in and select cut the pines when pine Beatles first became a problem. Those guys had 2 huge draft horses and a mule. They did a great job very clean and low impact. The only hardwoods they cut was the ones that the skidders damaged before that crew was told to leave.

Well dang. Some of y'all got some sand in your drawers.

Either the the loggers I've dealt with are the worlds best or ya'lls are the worst.

we've had good luck for the most part. People need to realize when the trees are cut there will not be leaves and coverage for existing roads and they will wash out much easier. Its not the loggers fault.
As far as leaving trash and tops in streams that is unacceptable.

I know. This end of the business has been putting food on the table for my whole career. It's always interesting interacting with folks that don't deal with it on a daily basis

We put it in our contracts, but honestly the cutters don't always do it. We cut a small parcel back in the summer and they did a great job. Didn't leave anything, really policed the area good. I gave them a 200 dollar tip actually. Generally they leave anything from potted meat cans to burned up skidders......

Jmj brings up a good point. I've seen several pieces of broken or damaged logging equipment left behind over the years. How in the hell do they get away with that? One was a skidder that caught fire and burned up. I wouldn't want that on my property.

I think I'd have to sue them about leaving something like a burned skidder. That's horsecrap.

We had a lease in Barbour County. They left tires, wheels, a fuel wagon about 1/4 full of fuel and an entire loader truck. All was junk, but it sat there the 3 years we had the place. In fact, I sat on top of the old loader truck a lot of mornings.

I am pro military, farming, and logging, in that order. From past discussion on here, the timber business in my area is different. I can not sell or get a price from a mill. It HAS to go through a dealer. Dealer gets their quota from the mill and then allocate it out to their loggers. I can hire a logger but he still has to get quota tickets from the dealer. So, the dealer is always there. Now dealers get different prices from the mill and with the buddy, buddy system and some REALLY nice Christmas presents, the small dealers are gone. Now its mass production type of business. WFO!! It helps if you own multiple tracts of land. Most folks they do business with once in a lifetime. If you own multiple tracts they want there foot in the door on the next one. I can add here that we have done business with Will Roberts from Blue Ox in Selma a few times and he has done really good. Always get photos before and after. Put everything in the contract. IF AT ALL POSSIBLE GET SOMEONE WITH ACCESS TO A CHIPPER!!! All the tops and limbs usually left go into the chipper and to the mill. A LOT cleaner site and you GET paid for someone to clean it up.

Clem - sorry, I guess I didn't make that clear. Nobody has ever trespassed during logging; I've always given permission when someone needed to come across my land to get to theirs to cut it. One reason I've managed to hold onto 3 different small hunting leases is because they need access over my land to get to theirs. If I turned them down, I'd surely lose the leases, so I have to work with them. However, it's customary to give someone access in that situation even when no hunting lease is involved.

I just meant that the loggers who are working for the paper companies aren't real worried about making me happy. I've learned to just go directly to the Forester in charge if there is a problem. They will have some incentive to listen to him. Still, most loggers are gonna do whatever they wanta do anyway. I could give a whole lot of examples of that, but no point in it. They have a tough job in the best of times, and right now is not all that great.

I think the biggest challenge for the timber industry here in AL is having enough functioning logging crews. It takes a whole lot of money to get started, and most folks that have that kind of money or can get it, would rather do something else. I'm afraid the day is gonna come when a small landowner will not be able to get his timber cut at all.

Some of you young guys looking for a career oughta consider starting a crew. I'm convinced that a man willing to work hard could do well.

When loggers get caught on camera intentionally knocking over an expensive feeder and bust the hell out of it, they replace it and bossman motherf^%#s them for being stupid. How they didn't see my camera is beyond me.

Discussion on aldeer similar to what I've experienced throughout my career (love or hate if you will).

One discussion thread probably not going to change a lot of folks opinions. No doubt some have had bad experiences but hopefully this will change over time. All I can say is this...I've been working in this industry every day for the past 30 years and by far the vast majority are good hard working folks. And I would shutter to think what the economy of many southern states would be like without the jobs and recreational opportunities the industry provides. Would just ask that everyone please put yourself in the others shoes before making generalized statements putting someone down.

They are just trying to earn a living but a little respect goes a long ways. If the timber companies didn't want/need our lease money, this thread wouldn't get near the attention.

The area where we lost the foot bridge and the stand was not even close to the area shown on the cutting area map. 300 yards outside!
I did not know about keeping the streams and drainage clear, I will have pictures this weekend for reference.
Oil bottles and garbage will be documented as well, you would have thought they had been cutting 5000 acres by the way he responded.
"If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to find time to do it over?"
One more for those that care, "Bad news does not age well!"

no, we leased the land to hunt and gave access to the center piece through my yard. it wasn't the forester or the loggers that i had the problem with - it was the company that was supposed to come in after the loggers left. this company was supposed to fix my driveway and any other damage (culvert) and also re-establish the roads. they always had an excuse - busy, broke down, out of town, etc., etc.! i know i'll never call them if i ever need that type of service and i would never recommend them. hindsight, it should have fallen back on the forester because he said it would be taken care of. i had a verbal agreement when i should have had a written contract. just made me better prepared for when they cut a few years later.

I'm dealing with it now. Tree lease by lumber company and cutting crew from the same area. A couple of places (roads) that I'm not satisfied with have been brought to their attention. Headed out in a little while (unless gravity jumps up and grabs me again) to remind them to get them fixed. We have a lot of road to keep up with on our place.
They fix them, or the lumber company gets a bill even though there is nothing binding in the contract for the roads.
There are also areas that need to have debris pushed into piles. I'm looking to have this done also.
We will see as this was a verbal agreement and the lumber company is pretty reputable in this type of situation.