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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1763139
06/17/16 08:20 AM
06/17/16 08:20 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,743 Lower AL
k bush
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,743
Lower AL
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Will .223 work ? Yes. Is it the best choice- No. Doubt very many fall close to the shot. If this is not a problem or you don't mind looking for them go ahead with the .223. I killed a boat load of small hogs with a bolt action .22 hornet.
Second shots are definitely possible, even with a bolt action.
If you need an excuse to buy a .308 on an AR platform then this is good a reason as any.
"Cull" is just another four letter word...
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Strutter]
#1763146
06/17/16 08:29 AM
06/17/16 08:29 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,781 USA
Remington270
OP
Freak of Nature
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OP
Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,781
USA
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I also wait till two pigs line up before I pull the trigger. Shoot the sow first in the neck and hit the pig behind her wherever the hell I can. I use a FMJ in the pipe and soft points in the mag. Wow, you've really thought this out!
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1763208
06/17/16 09:38 AM
06/17/16 09:38 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347 Prattville AL
ElkHunter
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347
Prattville AL
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I day hunt with a Browning X-bolt in 243 with 95 gr SST rounds.
I night hunt with 300 black outs with 110 gr rounds or 308 with 168 A-Max rounds.
I killed a lot of pigs with a 223 AR. I tried rounds as large as 77 grains and I still had to shoot large hogs multiple times most of the time.
If I was purchasing a single rifle to hog hunt with today. I would purchase a 308.
Last edited by ElkHunter; 06/19/16 02:20 PM.
Alabama Hog Control, Inc. www.alabamahogcontrol.comBarry Estes The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Tigger85]
#1763798
06/18/16 04:28 AM
06/18/16 04:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,781 USA
Remington270
OP
Freak of Nature
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OP
Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,781
USA
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How is the 5.56 round? My AR shoots both It's going to be indistinguishable from the .223
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1763860
06/18/16 06:35 AM
06/18/16 06:35 AM
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 8,934 Between the coosa and cahaba
!shiloh!
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 8,934
Between the coosa and cahaba
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I killed 3 pigs with 3 shots with a bolt action out of a tree stand this year. Last year I killed 3 with a crossbow in one sit. I think all about getting luck and proficient with you wepon . I bought my fist ar 556 a few weeks ago and I'm shooting the barns tsx and I have no doubt they will drop some pigs in their tracks . From my experience pigs are alot easier to drop than deer.
ggg
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: !shiloh!]
#1763895
06/18/16 07:58 AM
06/18/16 07:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000 north alabama
shooters
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000
north alabama
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I would split the difference and go 300 BLK. Here is my reasoning. I have killed LOTS of running hogs. 223 is best for running hogs, with practice you will hit everytime, but on large hogs it will often take multiple shots. 308 gas gun kills running hogs great BUT the recoil take you off the target WHEN multiple targets are there, thats a bad thing. Now the 300 BLK, lets you stay on target, like the 223 on running hogs. And its just like the 30/30 in ballistics and knock down. I have killed with 223,6.5 Grendal,6.8 SPc,308 gas gun, and 300 BLK. I like the 300 BLK with an Armasight Zeus on it!
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1764067
06/18/16 01:17 PM
06/18/16 01:17 PM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,573 Petal,MS,USA
SFC3
10 point
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10 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,573
Petal,MS,USA
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Yeah, I basically need an excuse to buy an AR-10. A 223, is totally ineffective and will only wound any hog therefore providing mass quantity of pork carcasses for coyotes to feed on since you wont find them causing coyote populations to explode ...There... Go buy ya an AR-10
Grumpy Old MS Bastage
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Mbrock]
#1764231
06/18/16 04:13 PM
06/18/16 04:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,781 USA
Remington270
OP
Freak of Nature
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OP
Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,781
USA
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.223 is plenty sufficient for hogs 100 lbs and less. Makes sense.
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: SFC3]
#1764597
06/19/16 06:48 AM
06/19/16 06:48 AM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000 north alabama
shooters
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000
north alabama
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Yeah, I basically need an excuse to buy an AR-10. A 223, is totally ineffective and will only wound any hog therefore providing mass quantity of pork carcasses for coyotes to feed on since you wont find them causing coyote populations to explode ...There... Go buy ya an AR-10 So I quess the one of us on here that have killed 100s of hogs a peice with 223 are ineffectively killing them???
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1765915
06/20/16 04:09 PM
06/20/16 04:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 52,200 Gee's Bend/At The Hog Pen
James
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 52,200
Gee's Bend/At The Hog Pen
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Nothing like a good caliber debate! Yep..I'd rather use my 450 bushmaster
How many people am i willing to sacrifice for freedom? Everyone. All of them...
Do not regret growing older, it's a privilege denied to many!
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: ValleyDawg]
#1766488
06/21/16 08:16 AM
06/21/16 08:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 21,445 HSV AL
jmudler
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 21,445
HSV AL
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I asked a outfitter on the 223 vs 308 once and his response was classic.
Can you use a condom with a hole in it, and hopefully get lucky. I prefer more assurance....308.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1766524
06/21/16 09:08 AM
06/21/16 09:08 AM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 12,918 Old Florida
Geno
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 12,918
Old Florida
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I kill them on management areas all the time with 22 rimfires. Not ideal, but with good shot placement it's doable.
That said, if the property allows centerfires I use a .30 cal ar-15. I don't feel under gunned with a .223 but the .30 does a better job.
The one I built to hunt hogs is a 7.62x39. Low recoil, very inexpensive hunting ammo (PRVI Partisan) and even cheaper plinking ammo (it eats any old crap that I feed it with aplomb).
Whoever is happy will make others happy too. Anne Frank
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: ElkHunter]
#1766847
06/21/16 03:18 PM
06/21/16 03:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,647 Hazel Green
Oscarflytyer
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,647
Hazel Green
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I night hunt with 300 black outs with 110 gr rounds Elk - just got a 300 BO. What bullet are you using for the 300 BO 110? Or the better question - are you using the Hornady 110 Vmax? Thanx
Last edited by Oscarflytyer; 06/21/16 03:22 PM.
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1767136
06/22/16 03:06 AM
06/22/16 03:06 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347 Prattville AL
ElkHunter
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347
Prattville AL
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I am shooting that or the Nosler Varmaggedon (sp). Both in 110 gr. Just depends on which I can find the cheapest and in stock.
Alabama Hog Control, Inc. www.alabamahogcontrol.comBarry Estes The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1767198
06/22/16 04:09 AM
06/22/16 04:09 AM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 10,331 coffee county
goodman_hunter
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 10,331
coffee county
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in my 300 i shoot the hornady 110vmax, but i also have some that shoot a 155 grain hornady amax 308 bullet. Havent tried them yet. They dont have the power the 308 has. But I can shoot faster and more accurate with the 300 than with a 308. So to me it just made since to go with the 300 and also buy a 556 upper too.
For without victory, there is no survival
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1768200
06/23/16 06:45 AM
06/23/16 06:45 AM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 106 Limestone Co.
SouthernGent87
3 point
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3 point
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 106
Limestone Co.
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Building a 6.8 SPC AR for hogs... anyone have any experience with a 6.8 AR platform on hogs? I figured it would be heavier hitting than 223 but still in AR-15 platform.
"Makes sense if you don't think about it..."
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1783467
07/11/16 09:54 PM
07/11/16 09:54 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,721 Chilton Co.
Duckshooter
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,721
Chilton Co.
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I can't stop using my ol' 30-30 and sometimes my 45/70. I love a lever gun.
"Liberty must at all hazards be supported.We have a right to it,derived from our maker.But if we had not,our fathers have earned and bought it for us at the expense of their ease,their estates,their pleasure and their BLOOD!" -John Adams (1735-1826)
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1783546
07/12/16 03:12 AM
07/12/16 03:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347 Prattville AL
ElkHunter
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347
Prattville AL
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My day gun is a bolt action Browning X-Bolt in 243.
My night guns are 300 black outs and 308s.
Alabama Hog Control, Inc. www.alabamahogcontrol.comBarry Estes The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1863713
10/02/16 07:29 PM
10/02/16 07:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 323 Heart of Dixie
Night_Stalker
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 323
Heart of Dixie
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User preference it sounds like. If you can pin point the head shot a .22 mag between the eyes will drop it. More has to be taken into consideration on what is best for the application. The shooter for starters. I'll have to side with the 30 caliber weapons. I've never had any large hog walk more than 30' when I hit them in the head or where I would shoot a deer. I was using a 300WSM 165gr ballistic tip ammo to boot. I do like the idea of the AR10 though being as I have a AR15. Do some field testing with what you desire and then maybe you'll answer your own "which one" questions that drag on and on.
4 - Reconyx SC950's 1 - Reconyx XR6 Ultra Fire 4 - Homebrew Units
**Don't waste $$ on those midrange priced cameras**
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1863836
10/03/16 03:41 AM
10/03/16 03:41 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,595 Hartselle, AL
trlrdrdave
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,595
Hartselle, AL
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Would you rather shoot Zombies with a .223 or a .308? Get the AR-10. Pigs now and Zombies when the Zombie Apocalypse gets here!
"In time of war, send me all the Alabamians you can get, but in time of peace, for Lord's sake, send them to somebody else." General Edward H. Plummer
"Blessed are those who, in the face of death, think only about the front sight." Jeff Cooper
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1863958
10/03/16 05:35 AM
10/03/16 05:35 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347 Prattville AL
ElkHunter
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347
Prattville AL
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I am really liking the performance of my 300 black outs shooting Nosler 110 gr Varmeggen (s) ammo. It has low recoil and not real loud. I am noticing a much improved knock down over my old 556. The round is slower but at our ranges that is not coming into play. I seldom shoot a pig over 100 yards. Most are under 60 yards.
Alabama Hog Control, Inc. www.alabamahogcontrol.comBarry Estes The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Night_Stalker]
#1864242
10/03/16 09:53 AM
10/03/16 09:53 AM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 18,070 Andalusia, Al. Covington Co.
DEADorALIVE
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 18,070
Andalusia, Al. Covington Co.
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a .22 mag between the eyes will drop it. ...had a friend shoot a hog between the eyes with a .243 years ago...peeled the hide some and ricocheted off that thick skull, and pissed a 300 lb boar off REAL bad! It ran Rex up a tree, after which he shot it again and killed it.
Well behaved women never make history.~ Out back Quit laughing...I think I broke something.
Fifteen is my limit on Schnitzen-Gruben, Baby...
I have OCD and ADD, so everything has to be perfect, but only for a minute.
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1864420
10/03/16 01:02 PM
10/03/16 01:02 PM
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,241 Behind your shadow
Reloader79
Bitch Peas, I'm a Kitty Whisperer
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Bitch Peas, I'm a Kitty Whisperer
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,241
Behind your shadow
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223 with 55-70gr TSX, or TTSX will do the job just fine on hogs or deer out to 200yds.
If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.
Bluetick serpentines around green fields and rock spit a lease
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1864555
10/03/16 03:10 PM
10/03/16 03:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,021 Tennessee
Bait57
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,021
Tennessee
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Well I am still trying to get my first piggy. I am currently building a 300 blackout. The few times I have been piggy hunting I have been taking my .243 wssm shooting 100gr handloads. Never had a deer take more than a few steps. So hopefully I can eventually get me a piggy or two.
Thanks to Geno by the way for taking me and shows me around. One heck of a guy.
I would rather be tried by 12, than carried by 6.
Famous redneck last words -- Hey y'all watch this... Hold my beer.
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Beadlescomb]
#1865390
10/04/16 11:24 AM
10/04/16 11:24 AM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 18,070 Andalusia, Al. Covington Co.
DEADorALIVE
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 18,070
Andalusia, Al. Covington Co.
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I put that deuce deuce on them. Sweet! Perfect size, too!
Well behaved women never make history.~ Out back Quit laughing...I think I broke something.
Fifteen is my limit on Schnitzen-Gruben, Baby...
I have OCD and ADD, so everything has to be perfect, but only for a minute.
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: mw2015]
#1865394
10/04/16 11:29 AM
10/04/16 11:29 AM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 18,070 Andalusia, Al. Covington Co.
DEADorALIVE
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 18,070
Andalusia, Al. Covington Co.
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.308 ...because shooting twice is just silly!
Well behaved women never make history.~ Out back Quit laughing...I think I broke something.
Fifteen is my limit on Schnitzen-Gruben, Baby...
I have OCD and ADD, so everything has to be perfect, but only for a minute.
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1963032
12/22/16 03:50 AM
12/22/16 03:50 AM
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 10,397 northport
deadeye48
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 10,397
northport
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I agree with some of you guys about using enough gun.. I've killed a dozen or so since October and have seen the run like the wind blows with a shoulder shot from a 5.56 but one in the brain pan with same calbre will stop them dots.. I like the 6.8 SPC for shooting sounders so I can get multiple kills and bolt guns for the singles.. The 308 and the 6.5 creed are very good choices for a hog gun
When I need expert advice I tend to talk to myself The older I get the better I used to be
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1963081
12/22/16 04:49 AM
12/22/16 04:49 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347 Prattville AL
ElkHunter
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347
Prattville AL
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When stalk hunting during the day I keep several rounds loose in my pocket for quick reloading. My personal record for most pigs out of one sounder with my bolt action on a day stalk hunt is 8. I have done it twice.
I routinely kill 3 or 4 out of a sounder when I get in them. Shooting the big sow first really helps with that.
Alabama Hog Control, Inc. www.alabamahogcontrol.comBarry Estes The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#1996946
01/19/17 02:28 PM
01/19/17 02:28 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,185 Hartselle
longshot
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,185
Hartselle
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So why not a 300blkout? The 110gr Barnes tacX bullets are great. I even have some 125gr Accubonds that should do nicely
I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Some men are born brothers, Others earn it... JD
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#2010532
01/30/17 06:23 PM
01/30/17 06:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,528 Boaz,AL
CarbonClimber1
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,528
Boaz,AL
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I killem all the time with a 25grn 17hmr, but I confess, I do shoot them behind the eye every time. ive killed bunsches with 223's and 308's( one really cool FN 308 with gen 3 nightvision and a fully suppressed barrel) buuuuuut I shotem all in the head. ive kiltem with thermal to. but ive learned from experience if they sittin still shootem right behind the eye if they are runnin im still tryin to shoot theyre nose off. if theyre within 40yds I got a super black eagle 2 loaded full of buck shot along with an ar-15 with an eotech. helicopters are fun to, also if I do shootem with a bow I will only shootem quarterin away sose I can quarter that arrow through all the little piggys vital organs also with large diameter broadheads. mwahahahahahahahaha.... ahem scuse me I got carried away. 223 will definitely mow pigs down with headshots if you planning on shootin them in the body id go like 30 cal bullets an bigger like maybe 300 win mag or some of the wsm's anything that will cause massive trauma inside the chest cavity. even then you still gonna get some runners.... I don't like runners. I make pigs.. ded:)
Last edited by CarbonClimber1; 01/30/17 06:45 PM.
"I dont quit.. And ill fight alone if i have to"
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Remington270]
#2041436
02/27/17 03:53 PM
02/27/17 03:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,021 Tennessee
Bait57
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,021
Tennessee
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I finally got my first hogs on Saturday. And I can say that my 308 did a number. The bullet went thru a big sow (headshot) and then headshot a smaller sow. I got two with one shot 135 yards
I would rather be tried by 12, than carried by 6.
Famous redneck last words -- Hey y'all watch this... Hold my beer.
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: CarbonClimber1]
#2041661
02/27/17 06:21 PM
02/27/17 06:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,528 Boaz,AL
CarbonClimber1
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 7,528
Boaz,AL
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I killem all the time with a 25grn 17hmr, but I confess, I do shoot them behind the eye every time. ive killed bunsches with 223's and 308's( one really cool FN 308 with gen 3 nightvision and a fully suppressed barrel) buuuuuut I shotem all in the head. ive kiltem with thermal to. but ive learned from experience if they sittin still shootem right behind the eye if they are runnin im still tryin to shoot theyre nose off. if theyre within 40yds I got a super black eagle 2 loaded full of buck shot along with an ar-15 with an eotech. helicopters are fun to, also if I do shootem with a bow I will only shootem quarterin away sose I can quarter that arrow through all the little piggys vital organs also with large diameter broadheads. mwahahahahahahahaha.... ahem scuse me I got carried away. 223 will definitely mow pigs down with headshots if you planning on shootin them in the body id go like 30 cal bullets an bigger like maybe 300 win mag or some of the wsm's anything that will cause massive trauma inside the chest cavity. even then you still gonna get some runners.... I don't like runners. I make pigs.. ded:) just realized I said 25grn 17hmr an theys no such thing they are 20grns, got ma wires crossed. my bad
"I dont quit.. And ill fight alone if i have to"
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Duckshooter]
#2044583
03/02/17 05:12 AM
03/02/17 05:12 AM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 30,910 Clanton, AL
Out back
Grumpy Old Man
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Grumpy Old Man
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 30,910
Clanton, AL
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I can't stop using my ol' 30-30 and sometimes my 45/70. I love a lever gun. Amen! Pass the gravy. A good ol 30-30 can't be beat.
My opinions and comments are my own. They do not reflect the position or political opinions of Aldeer or any of the Aldeer administration.
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: shooters]
#2046261
03/03/17 04:58 PM
03/03/17 04:58 PM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,573 Petal,MS,USA
SFC3
10 point
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10 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,573
Petal,MS,USA
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Yeah, I basically need an excuse to buy an AR-10. A 223, is totally ineffective and will only wound any hog therefore providing mass quantity of pork carcasses for coyotes to feed on since you wont find them causing coyote populations to explode ...There... Go buy ya an AR-10 So I quess the one of us on here that have killed 100s of hogs a peice with 223 are ineffectively killing them??? Man says he needed an excuse to buy an AR10...But to answer your statement, theres no comparison between the power of a 308 and a 223,,,Not even close
Grumpy Old MS Bastage
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: Bait57]
#2061815
03/18/17 03:43 AM
03/18/17 03:43 AM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,726 Jasper, Alabama
ValleyDawg
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,726
Jasper, Alabama
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I finally got my first hogs on Saturday. And I can say that my 308 did a number. The bullet went thru a big sow (headshot) and then headshot a smaller sow. I got two with one shot 135 yards Man I really hope that was the Remington 700 you got from me that you was putting to work on them pigs.
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Re: .223 vs .308 for a hog gun
[Re: ValleyDawg]
#2065408
03/21/17 03:13 PM
03/21/17 03:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 42,096 UR 6
top cat
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 42,096
UR 6
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I've been invited to a hog hunt and plan on carring a .556 AR. Should I shotem in the eye......
LUCK:::; When presistence, dedication, perspiration and preparation meet up with opportunity!!! - - - - - - - -A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take everything you have. Thomas Jeferson - - - - - - - -
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