</a JR Holmes Oil Company </a Shark Guard Southeast Woods and Whitetail Mayer Insurance Services LLC
Aldeer Classifieds
Mathews lift 29.5
by Bows4evr. 04/18/24 09:53 PM
Trade or sell
by buzzbait. 04/18/24 05:07 PM
95 Ford F250 HD
by Rudy. 04/18/24 02:15 PM
WTB RugerMK IV 22/45 tactical
by JLavender. 04/17/24 08:08 PM
2011 Toyota RAV4
by jsubrett6. 04/16/24 10:00 PM
Serious Deer Talk
Tdogs mount
by Jdkprp70. 04/18/24 09:55 PM
Windy.com
by quailman. 04/18/24 09:46 PM
First cwd transmission to human?
by donia. 04/18/24 06:53 AM
seems like
by donia. 04/17/24 04:01 PM
Southern Illinois Hunting
by jdhunter2011. 04/17/24 11:42 AM
April
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
Land, Leases, Hunting Clubs
Help against Timber Company
by winlamberth. 04/17/24 11:31 PM
South Side Hunting Club (Baldwin County)
by Stickslinger91. 04/15/24 10:38 AM
Lease Prices in Lamar Co.
by Luxfisher. 04/12/24 05:38 PM
Kansas Muzzleloader/Bow
by Letshunt. 04/11/24 03:15 PM
G&E Hunting Club Questions
by booner. 04/11/24 01:11 PM
Who's Online Now
11 registered members (coosabuckhunter, Birdman83, deadeye48, mauvilla, tucker07, JLMiller, Xbow, Holcomb, 2walnuts, MoeBuck, OlTimer), 604 guests, and 0 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks #1537892
11/26/15 05:53 PM
11/26/15 05:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
R
Remington270 Offline OP
Freak of Nature
Remington270  Offline OP
Freak of Nature
R
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
I'm asking this as a totally honest question here, so I have no political agenda. How can you believe in the idea of killing genetically inferior bucks "cull bucks" and not believe in evolution? It's essentially the same thing, except we are taking control instead of nature sorting it out (at least the cull buck crowd thinks they are).
I can understand if you accept evolution of animals but not of humans, but otherwise you have to accept the theory of gradual genetic changes if you subscribe to this "cull buck" theory.
My point is this: many on here probably think evolution is BS. Ok, fair enough, but I wonder how many of y'all talk about cull bucks at deer camp without realizing the fallacy of your logic?

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: Remington270] #1537904
11/26/15 06:05 PM
11/26/15 06:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,651
Pelham
Ben2 Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Ben2  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,651
Pelham
Originally Posted By: Remington270
I'm asking this as a totally honest question here, so I have no political agenda. How can you believe in the idea of killing genetically inferior bucks "cull bucks" and not believe in evolution? It's essentially the same thing, except we are taking control instead of nature sorting it out (at least the cull buck crowd thinks they are).
I can understand if you accept evolution of animals but not of humans, but otherwise you have to accept the theory of gradual genetic changes if you subscribe to this "cull buck" theory.
My point is this: many on here probably think evolution is BS. Ok, fair enough, but I wonder how many of y'all talk about cull bucks at deer camp without realizing the fallacy of your logic?


I don't beleive in killing genetically inferior because unless you live with the deer 24/7 you don't know his genetic make up. I beleive in killing old deer, if they have big racks or small racks (cull bucks) old deer die! We call them cull bucks because we don't know what else to call them.

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: Remington270] #1537909
11/26/15 06:09 PM
11/26/15 06:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
R
Remington270 Offline OP
Freak of Nature
Remington270  Offline OP
Freak of Nature
R
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
My question is, how can you reject the theory of evolution, and yet still practice it?

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: Remington270] #1537914
11/26/15 06:17 PM
11/26/15 06:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,651
Pelham
Ben2 Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Ben2  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,651
Pelham
My understanding of evolution is an ape becoming a man. Me shooting a 3 point at 5 yrs old won't make another deer become an elk.

Maybe I don't understand the question.

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: Remington270] #1537919
11/26/15 06:22 PM
11/26/15 06:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,651
Pelham
Ben2 Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Ben2  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,651
Pelham
I let a deer live because he is young and big and I hope he had offspring that represent him.

I don't know how that is practicing evolution.

That deers son may or may not resemble his dad. Same way one I choose to shoot because of his age and lack of physical appearance (cull buck) may have left me 5 terrible looking little ones or may have left me 3 studs, who knows. I am not killing him to remove his offspring I kill him to remove him.

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: Remington270] #1537920
11/26/15 06:23 PM
11/26/15 06:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,342
oak grove
forten Offline
8 point
forten  Offline
8 point
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,342
oak grove
Your not lone Ben, this question went over my head also, it could just be me tho. If it is I'm not surprised. I'll keep an eye on this so maybe i can catch on to what your trying to say.

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: Remington270] #1537944
11/26/15 07:24 PM
11/26/15 07:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 31,681
Slidell, La
perchjerker Offline
Freak of Nature
perchjerker  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 31,681
Slidell, La
Evolution is supposed to happen over thousands of years. Inferior bucks can be due to inbreeding or damaged antlers or body injuries. The only time shooting cull bucks makes any sense is in an enclosure where you can control breeding. I've heard alot of arguments, but you're the first to bring up evolution.


Thomas Jefferson. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Life is too short to only hunt and fish on weekends!

If being a dumbass was fatal some of you would be on your death bed!

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: perchjerker] #1537952
11/26/15 07:28 PM
11/26/15 07:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
R
Remington270 Offline OP
Freak of Nature
Remington270  Offline OP
Freak of Nature
R
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
Originally Posted By: perchjerker
Evolution is supposed to happen over thousands of years. Inferior bucks can be due to inbreeding or damaged antlers or body injuries. The only time shooting cull bucks makes any sense is in an enclosure where you can control breeding. I've heard alot of arguments, but you're the first to bring up evolution.



This question is really only applicable to those who think you can change the herd.

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: Ben2] #1537955
11/26/15 07:31 PM
11/26/15 07:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
R
Remington270 Offline OP
Freak of Nature
Remington270  Offline OP
Freak of Nature
R
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
Originally Posted By: Ben2
My understanding of evolution is an ape becoming a man. Me shooting a 3 point at 5 yrs old won't make another deer become an elk.

Maybe I don't understand the question.


Evolution, in theory, applies to all creatures. When many people kill an inferior buck, they do so in an effort to avoid having him pass those genetics on. That's natural selection, which is the basis of evolution. You the hunter are selecting desirable traits, and undesirable ones that shouldn't be passed on.

Last edited by Remington270; 11/26/15 07:33 PM.
Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: forten] #1537967
11/26/15 07:49 PM
11/26/15 07:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
R
Remington270 Offline OP
Freak of Nature
Remington270  Offline OP
Freak of Nature
R
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
Originally Posted By: forten
Your not lone Ben, this question went over my head also, it could just be me tho. If it is I'm not surprised. I'll keep an eye on this so maybe i can catch on to what your trying to say.


If you believe:
1. Evolution is a load of BS
2. Shooting a cull buck makes the deer population better, in terms of antlers,

Then these two beliefs are inconsistent with one another.

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: Remington270] #1538005
11/27/15 12:39 AM
11/27/15 12:39 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,459
Mississippi
R
riflenut Offline
10 point
riflenut  Offline
10 point
R
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,459
Mississippi
Originally Posted By: Remington270

Evolution, in theory, applies to all creatures. When many people kill an inferior buck, they do so in an effort to avoid having him pass those genetics on. That's natural selection, which is the basis of evolution. You the hunter are selecting desirable traits, and undesirable ones that shouldn't be passed on.


No, killing an "inferior" buck is not natural selection, it's artificial selection. Natural selection is what some call "survival of the fittest" where the strong and smart live longer and thus breed more to pass on their genes. With artificial selection, also called "selective breeding", we as humans attempt to remove what we consider to be bad from the gene pool.


"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson

"I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers." George Mason
Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: Remington270] #1538007
11/27/15 01:03 AM
11/27/15 01:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,459
Mississippi
R
riflenut Offline
10 point
riflenut  Offline
10 point
R
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,459
Mississippi
Originally Posted By: Remington270


If you believe:
1. Evolution is a load of BS
2. Shooting a cull buck makes the deer population better, in terms of antlers,

Then these two beliefs are inconsistent with one another.


Your line of thinking is flawed, us removing a deer from the herd does not promote evolution. Evolution is the gradual change of a species as it adapts to it's environment. Evolution absolutely happens, look at Bergmann's rule which states that animals in colder climates tend to be larger than those in warmer climates. Ever noticed that northern whitetails tend to be larger in body and rack then those in the south? Again, you're confusing evolution which is a gradual, natural, genetic change with artificial selection which is an attempt to promote desirable traits by removing those animals that lack them.


"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson

"I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers." George Mason
Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: riflenut] #1538032
11/27/15 02:34 AM
11/27/15 02:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,517
Land of the free because of th...
mike35549 Offline
12 point
mike35549  Offline
12 point
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,517
Land of the free because of th...
Originally Posted By: riflenut
Originally Posted By: Remington270


If you believe:
1. Evolution is a load of BS
2. Shooting a cull buck makes the deer population better, in terms of antlers,

Then these two beliefs are inconsistent with one another.


Your line of thinking is flawed, us removing a deer from the herd does not promote evolution. Evolution is the gradual change of a species as it adapts to it's environment. Evolution absolutely happens, look at Bergmann's rule which states that animals in colder climates tend to be larger than those in warmer climates. Ever noticed that northern whitetails tend to be larger in body and rack then those in the south? Again, you're confusing evolution which is a gradual, natural, genetic change with artificial selection which is an attempt to promote desirable traits by removing those animals that lack them.
.

I would call that adaptation not evolution. But I still don't get the OP original line of thinking.


If you're gonna be stupid you better be tough.
Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: riflenut] #1538070
11/27/15 03:34 AM
11/27/15 03:34 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
R
Remington270 Offline OP
Freak of Nature
Remington270  Offline OP
Freak of Nature
R
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
Originally Posted By: riflenut
Originally Posted By: Remington270

Evolution, in theory, applies to all creatures. When many people kill an inferior buck, they do so in an effort to avoid having him pass those genetics on. That's natural selection, which is the basis of evolution. You the hunter are selecting desirable traits, and undesirable ones that shouldn't be passed on.


No, killing an "inferior" buck is not natural selection, it's artificial selection. Natural selection is what some call "survival of the fittest" where the strong and smart live longer and thus breed more to pass on their genes. With artificial selection, also called "selective breeding", we as humans attempt to remove what we consider to be bad from the gene pool.


Well, yes, you can call it that, but there is still a selection of genes being carried on, and s gradual change of the gene pool that changes the species.

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: riflenut] #1538074
11/27/15 03:39 AM
11/27/15 03:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
R
Remington270 Offline OP
Freak of Nature
Remington270  Offline OP
Freak of Nature
R
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,779
USA
Originally Posted By: riflenut
Originally Posted By: Remington270


If you believe:
1. Evolution is a load of BS
2. Shooting a cull buck makes the deer population better, in terms of antlers,

Then these two beliefs are inconsistent with one another.


Again, you're confusing evolution which is a gradual, natural, genetic change with artificial selection which is an attempt to promote desirable traits by removing those animals that lack them.


Call it what you want. Evolutionists would say the gazelle got so fast because of the cheetah, right? Well what happened to those slow gazelles? They got eaten! The slow genes didn't get carried on. Well with the cull buck theory, where do all the small antler genes go? They die off at the end of a gun, no different than a cheetah, in the end. Dead is dead.
Please tell me if you think I'm wrong, and how. I think it is very interesting (regardless of whether I actually believe it)

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: mike35549] #1538076
11/27/15 03:41 AM
11/27/15 03:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 8,373
Chelsea, AL
lefthorn Offline
14 point
lefthorn  Offline
14 point
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 8,373
Chelsea, AL

Originally Posted By: mike35549
Originally Posted By: riflenut
Originally Posted By: Remington270


If you believe:
1. Evolution is a load of BS
2. Shooting a cull buck makes the deer population better, in terms of antlers,

Then these two beliefs are inconsistent with one another.


Your line of thinking is flawed, us removing a deer from the herd does not promote evolution. Evolution is the gradual change of a species as it adapts to it's environment. Evolution absolutely happens, look at Bergmann's rule which states that animals in colder climates tend to be larger than those in warmer climates. Ever noticed that northern whitetails tend to be larger in body and rack then those in the south? Again, you're confusing evolution which is a gradual, natural, genetic change with artificial selection which is an attempt to promote desirable traits by removing those animals that lack them.
.

I would call that adaptation not evolution. But I still don't get the OP original line of thinking.


Yes, adaptation is probably the correct term.

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: Remington270] #1538081
11/27/15 03:46 AM
11/27/15 03:46 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,151
alabama
BhamFred Offline
Freak of Nature
BhamFred  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,151
alabama
natural selection selects for traits that improve an animals ability to survive. Has nothing to do with man shooting bucks that don't meet some artificial criteria that has nothing to do with survival.

you cannot change the genetic makeup of a HERD by culling antler traits you don't like, those traits are already spread throughout the herd. You can kill ALL the three year old eights, leaving tens to breed and twenty years down the road you will still be shooting those pesky eights.

artificial culling and evolution have nothing to do with each other....


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: riflenut] #1538100
11/27/15 04:05 AM
11/27/15 04:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 94
B
bowhunt55 Offline
spike
bowhunt55  Offline
spike
B
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 94
Thanks riflenut for setting the record straight. This is the worst argument for evolution I've ever heard. Shooting culls has nothing to do with it.

Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: Remington270] #1538102
11/27/15 04:10 AM
11/27/15 04:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,459
Mississippi
R
riflenut Offline
10 point
riflenut  Offline
10 point
R
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,459
Mississippi
Originally Posted By: Remington270

Call it what you want. Evolutionists would say the gazelle got so fast because of the cheetah, right? Well what happened to those slow gazelles? They got eaten! The slow genes didn't get carried on. Well with the cull buck theory, where do all the small antler genes go? They die off at the end of a gun, no different than a cheetah, in the end. Dead is dead.
Please tell me if you think I'm wrong, and how. I think it is very interesting (regardless of whether I actually believe it)

Through natural selection, the strong, fast, smart naturally dominate a particular species. The weak, slow, dumb die sooner thus don't live as long to pass on the genes. Relating of cull bucks to evolution doesn't apply. Evolution means the animals are naturally evolving to it's environment. When we select a "cull" deer, that in no way promotes the species to evolve. Again, taking a cull deer is artificial selection or selective breeding which does not lead to an evolution of the species.


"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson

"I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers." George Mason
Re: Evolution and the idea of Cull Bucks [Re: BhamFred] #1538103
11/27/15 04:11 AM
11/27/15 04:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,459
Mississippi
R
riflenut Offline
10 point
riflenut  Offline
10 point
R
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,459
Mississippi
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
natural selection selects for traits that improve an animals ability to survive. Has nothing to do with man shooting bucks that don't meet some artificial criteria that has nothing to do with survival.

you cannot change the genetic makeup of a HERD by culling antler traits you don't like, those traits are already spread throughout the herd. You can kill ALL the three year old eights, leaving tens to breed and twenty years down the road you will still be shooting those pesky eights.

artificial culling and evolution have nothing to do with each other....


BINGO!!!!


"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson

"I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers." George Mason
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Aldeer.com Copyright 2001-2023 Aldeer LLP.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1
(Release build 20180111)
Page Time: 0.105s Queries: 15 (0.027s) Memory: 3.2889 MB (Peak: 3.5796 MB) Zlib disabled. Server Time: 2024-04-19 08:31:32 UTC