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Buck Dispersion #1471272
10/04/15 12:46 PM
10/04/15 12:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,778
Alabama
3
3FFarms Offline OP
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We've had our place going on its 5th year. EVERY year we have a pile of 2-3 year old bucks. Always. Without question. However, we rarely see or get pictures of bucks that are 4,5,6 years old. We aren't shooting them, neighbors aren't shooting them...they literally just disappear. Poof, gone. We have a cooperative of 4 landowners totaling about 1200 acres. In 5 years, we have taken roughly 20 bucks. Of those 20, I would say 2 were 2.5, 8 were 3.5 and 10 were 4.5+. I would say, conservatively, we hold one buck/15 acres, or roughly 100 bucks on the 1200 total. Of those, I would say that less than 10% are 4.5 or older. My question, if we are able to hold such a number of 3.5 and younger deer, where are the mature bucks going? Will they not tolerate all of the younger deer and their shenanigans? Would killing some of the younger bucks actually help our ability to hold and harvest mature deer? Just looking for opinions.


Originally Posted by CNC
Ya'll are just overthinking it now

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471292
10/04/15 01:03 PM
10/04/15 01:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
central ala,
C
centralala Offline
14 point
centralala  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
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central ala,
Dang good question. I've seen the same on some properties. Can't even get an older buck on camera. I also have seen bucks come into foodplots at 1, 2, and 3 yo's. But sometime between over the summer between 3 and 4 they decide they will never go into that foodplot again during daylight. Then I have another property that EVERY year I will have at least 1 (usually more) 4+ yo stroll out there in broad daylight. This property if you haven't seen the deer you looking for by the time sun sets, go home. No more come out at dusk. Also, come Jan. 1 the season is basically over for mature deer. And this should just be starting primetime in this area. The summer time bucks are different than the winter bucks also.

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471299
10/04/15 01:13 PM
10/04/15 01:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,166
Florence, Al
A
AlabamaSwamper Offline
10 point
AlabamaSwamper  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
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Florence, Al
I have almost 0 range shifting. I run a bunch of cameras.

Now bucks simply vanishing in summer months with old mature bucks is common. Guess they die


BTR Scorer in NW Alabama

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471323
10/04/15 01:35 PM
10/04/15 01:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,540
Awbarn, AL
CNC Online content
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Online Content
Dances With Weeds
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Posts: 21,540
Awbarn, AL
I would be willing to bet that more bucks die each year due to fighting related injuries or rigors of the rut than what people realize. I was looking at a buck skull the other day from one I killed and noticed a place on his skull between his antlers that looked like a puncture wound. It looked like it had fractured his skull in that little spot but didn't go all the way through to his brain....eventually healing up. Not all bucks are that lucky though. If they get a severe enough wound to the top of the skull it can cause eventual death due to infection so close to the brain. That's what I've heard anyways. Maybe one of the biologists could verify that. smile


Last edited by CNC; 10/04/15 01:37 PM.

The Corn Crash!!!
Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471339
10/04/15 01:48 PM
10/04/15 01:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,329
Northeast Florida
BamaGrad85 Offline
10 point
BamaGrad85  Offline
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Posts: 4,329
Northeast Florida
I suspect they're still there just nocturnal. I had a big 8 pointer that was easily 5.5 years or older. I got him on camera twice before bow season opened. That was it though. I got him on camera again in February after the season went out in the same area as before season. I can't help but believe that the cameras spooked him. We're running cameras this year but not checking them as much as we did last season. We also changed out planting routine this year. In the past we've sprayed the fields then came back with disc and planted. This year we deep plowed them, disced to powder then planted. Hoping for better results.


I came, I saw, so I killed them all......Vern
Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471344
10/04/15 01:53 PM
10/04/15 01:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,209
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
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Boxes Cove
Some disperse, some become nocturnal, some become camera shy, natural and unnatural mortality. I'll still bet $ there are more there than you think. At 4 they're getting pretty slick.

Just re-read your post, you say 50% were 4.5 or older , sounds like you're killing some of them. 50% of bucks killed over a few years time 4.5 and older sounds pretty good to me.

I think you don't have as big of a problem as you think you do.

Last edited by 2Dogs; 10/04/15 02:04 PM.


"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471354
10/04/15 02:03 PM
10/04/15 02:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter Offline
10 point
NightHunter  Offline
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Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
I agree with 2Dogs to an extent...

It is different from place to place and from time of year to time of year.

We hold a ton of mature bucks during the spring and summer months but during the winter they typically range off the property. Just a difference in summer and winter home ranges.

Mature bucks also demand the best range. I've seen deer up and leave moderate habitat on a well managed place and move 2.5-3 miles and set up shop as a 4 year old. He moved to prime habitat on the same property.

If you aren't seeing them you likely have more than you think...but there may be something missing too. May be worth an in-depth look.

Last edited by NightHunter; 10/04/15 02:04 PM.
Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: NightHunter] #1471371
10/04/15 02:18 PM
10/04/15 02:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
central ala,
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centralala Offline
14 point
centralala  Offline
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C
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central ala,
Originally Posted By: NightHunter


It is different from place to place and from time of year to time of year.


...and from deer to deer. Dayum thangs are worse than women. grin I feel if you can get 50% of a herd reacting the same you are doing dang good. The other 50% is still going to be all over the board. Such as the way a herd reacts to a front coming through. Or the moon. Or heavy wind. Dispersion should be the same with variability.

Last edited by centralala; 10/04/15 02:19 PM.
Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: centralala] #1471410
10/04/15 02:42 PM
10/04/15 02:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 41,955
UR 6
top cat Offline
Freak of Nature
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UR 6
With age comes wisdom.


LUCK:::; When presistence, dedication, perspiration and preparation meet up with opportunity!!!
- - - - - - - -A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take everything you have. Thomas Jeferson - - - - - - - -
Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: centralala] #1471422
10/04/15 02:47 PM
10/04/15 02:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter Offline
10 point
NightHunter  Offline
10 point
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Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
Originally Posted By: centralala
Originally Posted By: NightHunter


It is different from place to place and from time of year to time of year.


...and from deer to deer. Dayum thangs are worse than women. grin


Very true! Some are home bodies some aren't. Some are extremely territorial/aggressive and some are very passive.

Fickle critters.

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471605
10/04/15 04:21 PM
10/04/15 04:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
T
truedouble Offline
14 point
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T
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
It's been said before, but cameras can by the best and worst thing that ever happened to modern day hunters. I remember BSK telling me that he watched mature bucks walk off the trail to make a point to avoid a trail camera, and then get back on the trail after they passed the camera. Not saying every or even most mature bucks avoid cameras, but no doubt some do. Just cause your not getting pics doesn't mean they aren't there…this is something I have to remind myself as well.

That being said, assuming they aren't dead, you should expect to be able to follow some of your bucks from 3 to 4 to 5. From my experience, if I have 10 3.5 year olds, I might have 4 or 5 at 4 and maybe 1 or 2 at 5. We have well over 5,000 acres of contiguous land (owned by several landowners) that is well managed and a lot of these bucks never die of a bullet or car. Go figure.

Also, with 1200 acres it's very possible some of your bucks are going to another property off of the 1200 acres.

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471633
10/04/15 04:33 PM
10/04/15 04:33 PM

M
Matt Brock
Unregistered
Matt Brock
Unregistered
M


What 2dogs and NH said, and truedouble too.

Natural mortality kills more mature bucks than most realize. They also just decide to move sometimes, and don't come back, even when all their needs are met. On 1200 acres I can guarantee you more bucks are getting killed off your property than you'd ever care to know. Most mature bucks will wonder from your 1200 at some time in the season, some of them miles.

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471650
10/04/15 04:41 PM
10/04/15 04:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,778
Alabama
3
3FFarms Offline OP
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3FFarms  Offline OP
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Alabama
Thanks guys. All great info and I appreciate each of the opinions expressed thus far. Will mature deer seek solitude away from other bucks once the hormones get going and bachelor groups start busting up? Would any of you suggest trying to target inferior 3 year olds to make it more hospitable for mature deer?


Originally Posted by CNC
Ya'll are just overthinking it now

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471688
10/04/15 05:08 PM
10/04/15 05:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 13,839
Mobile, AL
S
SouthBamaSlayer Offline
Gary's Fluffer
SouthBamaSlayer  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 13,839
Mobile, AL

Originally Posted By: 3FFarms
Thanks guys. All great info and I appreciate each of the opinions expressed thus far. Will mature deer seek solitude away from other bucks once the hormones get going and bachelor groups start busting up? Would any of you suggest trying to target inferior 3 year olds to make it more hospitable for mature deer?


Nooooo don't do that. Mature bucks travel, and can travel a long way throughout the season. They can travel a mile and a half per day during the rut. Keep your doe numbers down on your land and the land next to your to keep those bucks on their feet looking come the rut.

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471691
10/04/15 05:09 PM
10/04/15 05:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 13,839
Mobile, AL
S
SouthBamaSlayer Offline
Gary's Fluffer
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Posts: 13,839
Mobile, AL
Also, what kind of offseason nutrition are you doing?

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471716
10/04/15 05:24 PM
10/04/15 05:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 17,181
Huntsville, AL
Claims Rep. Offline
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 17,181
Huntsville, AL
I killed my biggest buck back in Jan. 2014. This buck was estimated at a minimum of 5 1/2 years old. Had one guy say 7+. Anyway, our biologist has a lot of cameras out all over the place, and he told me he had NEVER seen my buck before. Never. My thought at that time was "If he's never seen this buck before, how many more are out there that have never stepped in front a camera?"

3F, with the situation you described, I'd guess they are still there for the most part. Like others have said, the deer just know how to avoid the cameras, etc. Might be interesting if you set up a camera watching a camera you've had out for a while that the deer may already know of. Those old bucks get old for a reason.


Jesus... I hope you know Him personally like I do.

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Proud crossbow hunter!
Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471721
10/04/15 05:29 PM
10/04/15 05:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter Offline
10 point
NightHunter  Offline
10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
Move your cameras to about 6-7 ft up in the tree and angle them down.

Are you doing spring/summer plots?

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471726
10/04/15 05:43 PM
10/04/15 05:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,028
Hartselle, AL
G
ghost rabbit Offline
8 point
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Posts: 2,028
Hartselle, AL
I feel you on this problem. We seem to have much of the same problem that you have. We get pics of bucks up until 4 and then most just disappear (on camera anyways). Its been this way for years. Just very hard to get a mature buck on camera. I've come up with some personal opinions but thats about all they are:) The main issue I believe is habitat and pressure with terrain or geography coming in to play also. If you don't have a thick or remote place that they can stay without being pressured I just don't think most mature bucks will make that place home even if they did at a younger age. For example on the 400-500 acres we hunt it is mostly mountain land with bigger hardwoods. While I do think that some of the thicker steeper places we have that don't get pressure will hold bucks the majority of the property isn't that way. I just don't think mature bucks normally hang out in big wide open places. It also doesn't help that there is 1000 acres next to us with thicker better bedding areas that only gets hunted maybe a hand full of times all year. Last week I ran into a guy that owns around 80 acres that borders us and was telling him about not getting any buck pics this summer and he pulls out his phone and starts showing me several he has gotten so far. One was a nice tall 8pt that I had got pics of year before last that just disappeared (like normal). He was probably 2 1/2-3 1/2 then and looked 4-5 now. The difference is that about 60 acres of what they own was logged several years ago and is very thick and joins a couple smaller 40-80 acre tracts that I don't think the land owners hunt. The location makes it even better for him. He is located to the southwest of us and we come in normally from the northeast. So when we come in we would many times be pushing them that way already. While we were talking about it he showed me a pic of a very nice buck that one of his buddies was getting in a club in TN. He said there was 20 acres not far from the clubhouse that no one ever goes on and he just threw his camera out and was getting that buck in the daylight every day. He was staying where there was n pressure. I know a guy that has killed several good public land deer. At one time he was able to spend most of the season in the woods and just a really good hunter. He had showed me some trail cam pics and had probably 5 deer that would go 140+ all in the same general area. All of them were just bruiser mature bucks. To say the least these weren't in big hardwood areas where there was much pressure. I think the small home range in the summer time makes it harder to find bucks anyways, so if you don't have prime bedding areas with low pressure the chance of seeing mature bucks consistently on camera is just going to be very low. Then the fact that mature bucks seem to avoid cameras anyways makes it that much harder. I agree with you and feel your pain and know how discouraging it can be especially because for me getting pics and running cameras and seeing the different bucks year to year is one of my favorite parts of hunting. I've just come to the conclusion that I know there are mature bucks out there and once the rut comes in to just hunt because even if we don't have many mature bucks that call it home they're moving enough then you never know what you may get.

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471818
10/05/15 12:05 AM
10/05/15 12:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 12,788
Thomasville, AL
H
Hogwild Offline
Booner
Hogwild  Offline
Booner
H
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 12,788
Thomasville, AL
They are individuals.....and, they move a long way at times.....several miles in fact. And, there does not have to be a 'reason'. Also, their personality has a lot to do with it. Some bucks are aggressive and bully all the others. Some are very submissive and will avoid interaction with other bucks. Then, you take the fact the Social Structure is being constantly disrupted as bucks are taken out of the herd during hunting season....and couple that with the Rut happening at the end of a long hunting season......and, the result is a virtual 'musical chairs' of bucks moving around!!!! The Social Structure is so dynamic, with so many variables, that there is no clear answer to why, how or when bucks will 'move'.

BUT, I can assure you this, they DO move!

Re: Buck Dispersion [Re: 3FFarms] #1471824
10/05/15 12:17 AM
10/05/15 12:17 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 12,788
Thomasville, AL
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Hogwild Offline
Booner
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Thomasville, AL
Also, I also know for a fact that you can 'recruit' new mature bucks onto our property. They cannot be stockpiled on one property!
Habitat management, Supplemental feeding and low pressure with Sanctuary Areas (yes, I will regret that with the current flurry of Sanctuary jokes smile ) that provide bucks with a secure environment attracts bucks from other properties where they are being 'suppressed' in the Social Structure.
Some properties are just better than others for no obvious reason. It seems like every year that there are numerous mature bucks taken off of them.....with virtually no end. And, oddly enough, these properties are sometimes hunted hard and not managed well. Really makes NO sense! But, the reason is usually social structure of the herd and nearby properties that are 'raising' bucks that are dispersing in and taking the place of bucks that have been killed.

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