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truck
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3 Buck Limit Question
#1436004
09/01/15 07:20 AM
09/01/15 07:20 AM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 837
Baldwin County
walt4dun
OP
6 point
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OP
6 point
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 837
Baldwin County
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How was the three buck limit decided on?
Were there biological facts about the herd or was it a just willy-nilly number?
If so, why is that number uniform across the state when the land is diverse and herds unique in different areas?
Also, if it was deemed necessary to have a limit - why just on bucks & why no doe limit?
Your thoughtful responses are appreciated.
I am a member of another forum & we are discussing the possible implementation of some kind of tagging system in SC where there currently is none. We have many legislators who tune in there and some that post.
I'm not familiar with the process that AL undertook to come to its decision. Hopefully I can relay that information to them if it had merit & create a positive impact. Thanks.
Last edited by walt4dun; 09/01/15 07:29 AM.
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: walt4dun]
#1436014
09/01/15 07:33 AM
09/01/15 07:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,736
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
jawbone
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,736
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
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1. Biological factors? I'm sure the state biologists had a say so. Whether it was heeded or not, I don't know.
2. Why uniform? Ease of implementation and enforcement. Pure and simple. It would be more biologically sound if they went to specific regions and a tagging system instead of what we have now, but our governor is threatening to cancel hunting season as it is unless he gets his new taxes.
3. Why no does? raising the mean age of does is not a concern. We (as a state) wanted older bucks and a higher buck/doe ratio.
Hang on, because you opened a can of worms.
Lord, please help us get our nation straightened out.
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: walt4dun]
#1436024
09/01/15 07:44 AM
09/01/15 07:44 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,587
Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,587
Tuscaloosa Co.
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I believe the reason given was age class structure. That's what I remember seeing, anyway. The doe limits got reduced, also.
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: walt4dun]
#1436040
09/01/15 08:01 AM
09/01/15 08:01 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,780
USA
Remington270
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,780
USA
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To protect the resource would be to protect the babymakers. The same way as hen turkeys are off limits.
I agree. But you have 10-15% of the state where they have so many deer that killing off the herd DOES.NOT.COMPUTE Plus the whole QDMA mantra of killing does (I know, I know there's more to QDMA than that) They should try coming up in the hills and hollers and hunting a long 3 day weekend and seeing only tree rats. I'm not even saying I'm wanting stricter limits ( I don't), but the end goal is bigger antlers, IMO.
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: walt4dun]
#1436051
09/01/15 08:12 AM
09/01/15 08:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 837
Baldwin County
walt4dun
OP
6 point
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OP
6 point
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 837
Baldwin County
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Im very much playing the devil's advocate here.
I like antlers. I don't shoot small bucks.
3 a year is fine by me.
And Im not heavy handed with does, purely my choice & don't fault people that kill a dozen a year either. I look at them as "buck bait". I like them hanging around my stands.
A lot of people feel like they are trying to *sell* the buck limits in SC, where traditionally there has been no limit, for the "good of the resource" when in fact its really about antlers. Also, people want to know HOW they are going to come up with the number.
Last edited by walt4dun; 09/01/15 08:14 AM.
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: walt4dun]
#1436052
09/01/15 08:13 AM
09/01/15 08:13 AM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,948
Round ‘bout there
Clem
Mildly Quirky
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Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,948
Round ‘bout there
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If in South Carolina you are hearing any of the "But you don't NEED more than ..." bullcrap, put a stop to that immediately. Not a damned soul there should be able to tell anyone what they "need" on their property or in their freezer.
Y'all better push hard for science and biology that is proven and has some kind of reason. Because "you don't need ..." and "aw, everyone knows letting bucks get old and mature is good for everything" are not proven in science and biology.
It would be nice if someone would just say "Hey, most of the hunters want bigger bucks with bigger antlers and having a tagging system and/or point minimum is the way to get there" instead of dancing around with "biology" and "good of the herd" and all that. Same kind of stuff as Corn vs. Food Plots: Just say that both are to help kill deer and be done with it, because they are.
"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter
"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013
"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: walt4dun]
#1436055
09/01/15 08:17 AM
09/01/15 08:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,736
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
jawbone
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,736
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
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Better antlers yields better resources in my opinion. What am I missing? To me those terms are synonymous. Same thing if you talk about a better buck/doe ratio.
Unless you are one of the people, like some in Alabama, that fear improving the heard will just attract out of state hunters to the degree that locals will be priced out of hunting.
Lord, please help us get our nation straightened out.
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: Clem]
#1436069
09/01/15 08:36 AM
09/01/15 08:36 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 42,074
UR 6
top cat
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 42,074
UR 6
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I wish it was 1. And enforced....
LUCK:::; When presistence, dedication, perspiration and preparation meet up with opportunity!!!
- - - - - - - -A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take everything you have. Thomas Jeferson - - - - - - - -
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: walt4dun]
#1436074
09/01/15 08:39 AM
09/01/15 08:39 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231
Central Alabama
Yelp softly
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231
Central Alabama
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1). Just my opinion, the 3 buck limit was a starting point. Is it somewhat arbitrary? Sure, but any number would be. The limit should be a moving target. If the herd is stable, the limit stays as it is. If the herd declines, the limit is lowered. Whenever you set a limit for the first time, it will be subjective. The key is to monitor the herd after the limit is set and then tweak it from there.
2). Why no doe limit? Are you familiar with the voluntary Game Check system? I think a lot of people assume that does are being harvested at a much higher rate than bucks but the data doesn't show that. Bucks are harvested at a 50% higher rate than does. Why set a limit for something that isn't being over harvested according to the data? If the does begin to be harvested at a higher rate, a limit may need to be set. I know a lot of folks will jump in here and say that you can't believe the data because not everyone voluntarily reports it. Statistically, the data can be significant. It's no different than an election poll. You get responses from a very small percentage of people and use that as a basis for determining how the whole population will vote. Game Check can give us a rough idea of the harvest just by looking at what a small percentage of hunters are reporting.
3). Why uniform limits across the whole state? My response is more based on personal preference than biology but I'm glad it's uniform. Having hunted various other states with much more complicated laws, I prefer simple. Some states have their open seasons and limits set by region and this gets confusing very quickly. This is one area where I think Alabama is doing it right. Our current regs are easy to interpret and are constant throughout the whole state. If I get invited to hunt another part of the state with friends, I don't have to worry about different rules or regs. It's simple and I prefer it that way. You have a point that there may be a better biological reason for managing it based on geography, but I dread the day we start making it more complicated than it has to be.
"When there was no fowl, we ate crawdad, when there was no crawdad, we ate sand."
"YOU ATE SAND!" - Raising Arizona
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: Clem]
#1436079
09/01/15 08:41 AM
09/01/15 08:41 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,780
USA
Remington270
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,780
USA
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If in South Carolina you are hearing any of the "But you don't NEED more than ..." bullcrap, put a stop to that immediately. Not a damned soul there should be able to tell anyone what they "need" on their property or in their freezer.
You're dang right. The government already tells us that if we make more money we don't "need" it, by taxing it at a much higher rate. Don't tell me what I need.
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: Yelp softly]
#1436096
09/01/15 08:57 AM
09/01/15 08:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,517
Land of the free because of th...
mike35549
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,517
Land of the free because of th...
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1). Just my opinion, the 3 buck limit was a starting point. Is it somewhat arbitrary? Sure, but any number would be. The limit should be a moving target. If the herd is stable, the limit stays as it is. If the herd declines, the limit is lowered. Whenever you set a limit for the first time, it will be subjective. The key is to monitor the herd after the limit is set and then tweak it from there.
2). Why no doe limit? Are you familiar with the voluntary Game Check system? I think a lot of people assume that does are being harvested at a much higher rate than bucks but the data doesn't show that. Bucks are harvested at a 50% higher rate than does. Why set a limit for something that isn't being over harvested according to the data? If the does begin to be harvested at a higher rate, a limit may need to be set. I know a lot of folks will jump in here and say that you can't believe the data because not everyone voluntarily reports it. Statistically, the data can be significant. It's no different than an election poll. You get responses from a very small percentage of people and use that as a basis for determining how the whole population will vote. Game Check can give us a rough idea of the harvest just by looking at what a small percentage of hunters are reporting.
3). Why uniform limits across the whole state? My response is more based on personal preference than biology but I'm glad it's uniform. Having hunted various other states with much more complicated laws, I prefer simple. Some states have their open seasons and limits set by region and this gets confusing very quickly. This is one area where I think Alabama is doing it right. Our current regs are easy to interpret and are constant throughout the whole state. If I get invited to hunt another part of the state with friends, I don't have to worry about different rules or regs. It's simple and I prefer it that way. You have a point that there may be a better biological reason for managing it based on geography, but I dread the day we start making it more complicated than it has to be. I think you are a little off on your Buck/Doe harvest numbers. According to the numbers that the state compiles from the hunter survey they mail out every year, does are killed at a slightly higher rate than bucks. I think the average over the last 10 years is something like 8-10 percent more does than bucks have been killed. You could look it up and get the actual numbers. I am pretty sure it is a statistically accurate survey.
If you're gonna be stupid you better be tough.
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: walt4dun]
#1436249
09/01/15 11:11 AM
09/01/15 11:11 AM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,095
Anniston, AL
ikillbux
ishootatbux
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ishootatbux
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,095
Anniston, AL
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I think you have to factor in the type of hunter that will call in to the Game Check system. My opinion is they would be more ethical, wouldn't over-harvest, etc. We've got to consider the 99% majority of hunters in Alabama who kill everything that moves and never reports their harvest, at least not honestly anyhow. I do not trust the results from surveys.
We were on the edge of Eternia, when the power of Greyskull began to take hold.
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: walt4dun]
#1436256
09/01/15 11:17 AM
09/01/15 11:17 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231
Central Alabama
Yelp softly
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,231
Central Alabama
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You are right Mike. The hunter survey results from past year shows a higher doe harvest for most years since 2000. It may be 8-10% higher, I didn't do the math on it but the percentages are usually pretty close to 50/50 for most years with 2013-2014 being the exception (60/40). However, I think this is only the second year for Game Check. Once the results for the 2014-2015 season Hunter survey are published we can see how closely they agree.
"When there was no fowl, we ate crawdad, when there was no crawdad, we ate sand."
"YOU ATE SAND!" - Raising Arizona
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: walt4dun]
#1436265
09/01/15 11:21 AM
09/01/15 11:21 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,860
dothan
eskimo270
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,860
dothan
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How was the three buck limit decided on. Thanks.
my memory is a little rusty but if i remember the CAB minutes correctly, steve guy who is affiliated with ALFA made a recommendation to form a committee to look into the need of moving from 1 buck a day to some form of a season limit. The committe met and made a recommendation to the CAB. The recommendation was for a 3 buck limit. When steve guy was asked why the 3 buck limit, he said because the ultimate goal of a 2 buck limit with antler restrictions would be too intrusive for Al hunters as a first step. So the CAB took the recommendation and i believe all but one member voted yes. Thus changing the limit beginning in the 07/08 season. Let me add that the CAB approved this against the wishes of the wildlife section of the ALDCNR, who felt that based on the data available, that Al hunters were beginning to manage the herd without government intrusion.
Super Predator
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Re: 3 Buck Limit Question
[Re: walt4dun]
#1436271
09/01/15 11:22 AM
09/01/15 11:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,736
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
jawbone
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,736
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
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I think when you institute buck limits it is also important to have liberal doe limits for the individuals that think they are a failure as a man if they go hunting and don't pull the trigger on something. Gives them something to shoot at besides spikes and armadillos. Also for those that like filling their freezer with deer meat to feed the family.
Lord, please help us get our nation straightened out.
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