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Different approach to self defense firearm training #1383286
07/04/15 06:41 AM
07/04/15 06:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,685
West Florida
westflgator Offline OP
10 point
westflgator  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,685
West Florida
I thought I would start a discussion based on another thread where there was a shootout in a motel room involving a former CNN reporter. The question was raised how could they have missed so many shots at such a close range. I posted a repsonse there which I will paste in below. I'm sure many on this board are very proficient with their sidearm a the range, but when it's life and death, and the adrenaline rush hits, statitics say that even the most highly trained are not very effiecient at hitting their target in a hostile situation.

Some FBI statistics that might explain:

Less than 20% hit rate of shots fired during hostile situations from law enforcemnt across the board (local,state, Fed).

Most are within the 18' range.

This is according to Curtis Porter who was the former handgun instructor for the Marines when they had the #1 pistol team in the world. According to Curtis when adrenaline hits your brain in a hostil situations even with proper training, the typical training techniques that are used across the country are not very effective for several reasons.

  • Many times "proper stance" isn't practical in short distance situations.
  • You can't effectively focus on your sights and the target with the adrenaline rush.
  • A close encounter can put you in a dangerous position for the offender to grab your weapon if you try and take a tradition stance while trying to aquire your target with sights in close range. Baically not enough time for that.


They work great for target, competition, and training, but not in a real world highly stressful life and death situation.

Curtis Porter has developed a totally different approach that is much more effective in these situations. He teaches point and shoot techniques that teach you to hit where you are looking/focused, and don't require the use of sights on the gun. He also teaches a non traditional bone alignment technique that the reduce the effects of recoil to help a shooter stay on target with follow up shots. His techniques may sound crazy, and I'm sure some who can shoots the lights out at the range will not agree, but I can tell you they are very practical and effective. I would encourage everyone who is serious about self defense to check out his training. He has several youtube videos that will explain a little bit about the difference in his techiniques.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpeCrCICAQI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqW6Anwm9UQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqW6Anwm9UQ

It sounds crazy that anyone who shoots regularly can miss so many shots at those short distances, but like I stated above that seems to happen more often than not, even with some of the most trained among us...

Last edited by westflgator; 07/04/15 10:26 AM.
Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: westflgator] #1383288
07/04/15 06:42 AM
07/04/15 06:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,685
West Florida
westflgator Offline OP
10 point
westflgator  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,685
West Florida
Sorry guys I tried to use the list option but apparently I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: westflgator] #1383304
07/04/15 07:07 AM
07/04/15 07:07 AM
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Posts: 3,685
Madison
Bar7Mag Offline
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Bar7Mag  Offline
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I honestly think those of us who grew up deer hunting are at a definite advantage because we have all overcome the adrenaline rush. I can speak from experience on running deer with dogs and stomping cutover in my younger days that some people overcome the adrenaline and become stone cold deer killers and others couldn't hit a deer they jumped in the cutover to save their life. I know it would be different drawing a bead on a living person but I feel that those experiences would be in your sub conscious and play a role in how you naturally react after instinct takes over.


REALTOR with Zeriss Realty
Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: westflgator] #1383313
07/04/15 07:26 AM
07/04/15 07:26 AM
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PDL, Fl
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timbercruiser Offline
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I wonder what the iron sight versus laser sight in a shootout numbers would be?

Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: timbercruiser] #1383324
07/04/15 07:47 AM
07/04/15 07:47 AM
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Jefferson County, Alabama
rut_n_strut75 Offline
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rut_n_strut75  Offline
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Originally Posted By: timbercruiser
I wonder what the iron sight versus laser sight in a shootout numbers would be?
Im curious about that too


With all your heart, you must trust the Lord and not your own judgement. Always let him lead you, and he will clear the road for you to follow. Proverbs 3:5-6
Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: westflgator] #1383349
07/04/15 08:46 AM
07/04/15 08:46 AM
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USA
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Remington270 Offline
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This is a big reason a few folks (not necessarily me) favor really small calibers like 22lr for self defense. More shots, quicker, with less recoil to get back on target.

Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: westflgator] #1383353
07/04/15 09:02 AM
07/04/15 09:02 AM
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ford150man Offline
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I know a fellow that is a retired police officer and is currently a self defense/firearm instructor. He was involved in two fire fights in his career. One of them was a wrestling match with a guy trying to get his gun. He told me with all his training, when the heat was on, he couldn't even remember to take the safety off of his pistol. Adrenaline does strange things to the body and mind.


If voting made any difference, they wouldn’t let us do it.-Mark Twain
Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: rut_n_strut75] #1383368
07/04/15 10:19 AM
07/04/15 10:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,685
West Florida
westflgator Offline OP
10 point
westflgator  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,685
West Florida
Originally Posted By: rut_n_strut75
Originally Posted By: timbercruiser
I wonder what the iron sight versus laser sight in a shootout numbers would be?
Im curious about that too


I thought about that same question myself, but then when you apply the logic that Curtis teaches, it would be no different with the red dot in the heat of the moment, you would still have to find the dot (aquire that target under duress). But if you had extensive time in the field learning to draw your weapon and hit what your eyes are fixed on in a short window of time rather than having to aquire a sight of any type, I think it would increase the odds of hitting the target.

Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: Bar7Mag] #1383370
07/04/15 10:21 AM
07/04/15 10:21 AM
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Posts: 2,685
West Florida
westflgator Offline OP
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westflgator  Offline OP
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West Florida
Originally Posted By: Bar7Mag
I honestly think those of us who grew up deer hunting are at a definite advantage because we have all overcome the adrenaline rush. I can speak from experience on running deer with dogs and stomping cutover in my younger days that some people overcome the adrenaline and become stone cold deer killers and others couldn't hit a deer they jumped in the cutover to save their life. I know it would be different drawing a bead on a living person but I feel that those experiences would be in your sub conscious and play a role in how you naturally react after instinct takes over.
I understand what your saying but I don't think the two are anywhere near comparable. I've had a situation where I thought I might have to shoot someone to protect my family, and I can say there was no comparison for me between the two situations.

Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: westflgator] #1383380
07/04/15 10:40 AM
07/04/15 10:40 AM
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Posts: 7,780
central ala,
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centralala Offline
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I'm no expert for sure, but the 2 times bullets flew very close to me, I wasn't thinking about the gun in my hand. Definitely not accuracy!!

I think the old saying: "There are no atheist in a fox hole" means a persons whole thought process changes when the bullets start flying.

Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: westflgator] #1383396
07/04/15 11:24 AM
07/04/15 11:24 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,571
Behind you
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Couldn't agree with the OP more. I couldn't give two flying rat fornification's about trying to shoot a pistol from a rest, with 5 seconds to line up my sights, or honestly at distances much over about 20 yards. That, to me, just isn't what they are for.

I can't quote the exact statistic, but a few years ago I saw a reputable source cite that something like 80%+ of all fatal shootings occur under 10 or 15 feet.

Think about that. FEET. As in, from your chair to the TV.

When I shoot a pistol, I practice drawing it smoothly and quickly, point shooting, shooting from non traditional stances, one handed, weak handed, and moving. If push ever came to shove, the above things I just listed are what you are going to have to be doing; not shooting a bottle cap at 25 yards.

I don't shoot near enough...but I'm going to start shooting more.

And yes, I think laser's would make a huge difference in a life and death situation.


Carrying a gun isn't comfortable; but at times it is comforting

"Cause the cause for the pause you think you see is really concentration on the steel” NonPoint
Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: westflgator] #1383471
07/04/15 02:01 PM
07/04/15 02:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,994
Madison County
grundan Offline
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You typically fight like you train. Some people freeze in the heat of the moment, some do stupid stuff they have never done in training or otherwise.
The vids are interesting. Have a plan wherever you go, also have a backup plan.

Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: westflgator] #1383473
07/04/15 02:01 PM
07/04/15 02:01 PM
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Posts: 36,092
alabama
BhamFred Offline
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alabama
His turned hand hold is not comfortable for me. He achieves follow up accuracy not because of his stance but because he has a VERY stable shooting platform with little gun movement which is achievable with a more traditional vertical hold.

Defensive shooting is measured in feet and seconds. Under 20 feet and under four seconds.

Stress, and defensive shooting is the definition of stress, makes your fine muscles go to much, your eyesight tunnel visions. Training in defensive shooting makes use of major muscle groups and repetition in form. It must become second nature to get the gun OUT, safety off if it has one, pointed(not aimed) and shoot. Reloading must be second nature and done automatically. Clearing jams should be part of any semi auto training because your chance of a jam is higher under stress.

I don't like lazers for defensive shooting, just something else to distract you when under great stress, and are unnecessary at ten feet.

I like fixed night sights for a reference, and you MUST train with some sort of light. You don't want to shoot yer neighbor by mistake.


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: BhamFred] #1383797
07/05/15 08:56 AM
07/05/15 08:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,685
West Florida
westflgator Offline OP
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westflgator  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: BhamFred
His turned hand hold is not comfortable for me. He achieves follow up accuracy not because of his stance but because he has a VERY stable shooting platform with little gun movement which is achievable with a more traditional vertical hold.

Defensive shooting is measured in feet and seconds. Under 20 feet and under four seconds.

Stress, and defensive shooting is the definition of stress, makes your fine muscles go to much, your eyesight tunnel visions. Training in defensive shooting makes use of major muscle groups and repetition in form. It must become second nature to get the gun OUT, safety off if it has one, pointed(not aimed) and shoot. Reloading must be second nature and done automatically. Clearing jams should be part of any semi auto training because your chance of a jam is higher under stress.

I don't like lazers for defensive shooting, just something else to distract you when under great stress, and are unnecessary at ten feet.

I like fixed night sights for a reference, and you MUST train with some sort of light. You don't want to shoot yer neighbor by mistake.


Good post.

The reason Curtis teaches that type of hold is that is takes advantage of natural bone alignment which gives the shooter much more stability. He displays this very easily with anyone who wishes to volunteer when he teaches his techniques. Yes as you stated it can be achieved with the tradtional hold, but you have to be taught that, it's not as natural as the way Curtis teaches. Without thinking point at something real quick, and then look at your hand position. Reach for something, or even sticking your hand out for a shake, you can see the hand is very rarely ever turned 90 degrees with the ground. He utilizes the natural hand position and a simple test of a pretty good bump of force on the end of the hand. When you compare the two different cants of the hand with the same test, you can feel the stability difference between the two bone alignments in the arm (especially in the elbow region). But I do understand where you are coming from, the traditional form has been taught for years, and it's what most shooters are familiar with.

Last edited by westflgator; 07/05/15 09:00 AM.
Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: westflgator] #1384312
07/06/15 07:36 AM
07/06/15 07:36 AM
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Gurley, Alabama
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Standbanger Offline
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Gurley, Alabama
shoot while you are running even more humbling

Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: Standbanger] #1384333
07/06/15 08:18 AM
07/06/15 08:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,100
Grant, Alabama, USA
TR Offline
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TR  Offline
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Grant, Alabama, USA
Originally Posted By: Standbanger
shoot while you are running even more humbling

or ducking behind any available cover and shooting around it. Many shots are taken when they can't even see the target, they are just throwing lead in the direction it is coming at them from.

Last edited by TR; 07/06/15 08:19 AM.

"Make a difference, take a kid hunting".
Re: Different approach to self defense firearm training [Re: westflgator] #1384773
07/06/15 04:36 PM
07/06/15 04:36 PM
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Atoler Offline
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Seems like a pretty logical approach. Very similar to western style. Eggs goal would be to point a gun as if it is your finger.


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