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Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread #1382154
07/02/15 04:43 AM
07/02/15 04:43 AM
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In light of the great discussion you guys had concerning baptism, I'm curious to read all of your thoughts/agreements/disagreements concerning the following teaching listed below. The subject is in bold. Have at it.


(2b) What is the difference between the Peter's gospel and Paul's gospel ?

Book 17 LESSON TWO * PART III

We are getting close to a portion of Scripture that I think has been totally confused by almost all groups, and we’re just going to take it for what it says. We’re not going to spiritualize it, or allegorize, it we are going leave it right where it is. Verse 36:

Acts 2:36a

"Therefore (because of all that has just taken place. Israel has had The Messiah for three years, performing signs and miracles, they crucified Him, God raised Him from the dead, and sent the Holy Spirit, and everything is falling into place) let all the house of Israel..."

Now you can’t put us Gentiles in this verse, unless you force it. Peter is speaking to Jews on Covenant grounds. It’s the fulfilling of the Covenant which God made with Abraham. Let’s pause for a moment and go to Chapter 3, so you’ll know what I’m talking about. And again Peter is preaching to a Jew-only crowd.

Acts 3:24,25

"Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days." What days? Everything that has just taken place. According to Peter, the Crucifixion, Resurrection, ascension and coming of the Holy Spirit was prophesied. Look at verse 25:

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant (only the Nation of Israel. All prophecy is directed to the Nation of Israel, they are the ones that will be at the core of these prophetic events. Even the horrible events in Revelation will be directed primarily at the Jew. But the whole world will also reap the fallout from these events. Jeremiah 30 tells us it’s the time of Jacob’s trouble) which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, ‘And in thy seed (through the Nation of Israel) shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.’"

So Peter is on Covenant ground. He’s still on the basis that everything that has been since Abraham, that is: the Nation of Israel was to receive the Redeemer, The Messiah, The King and the Kingdom, and it would be through Israel that God would gather the Gentiles. I never like to leave people with the idea that God had cast off the Gentiles. Oh, not at all. But He was going to use the Nation of Israel on Covenant grounds to bring them to Salvation. Even right here God has never said a word to anybody that He’s setting the Covenant promises aside for awhile. He hasn’t told anybody yet that they don’t have to keep Temple worship, or keep the Law. He hasn’t told people they must believe in His death, burial and Resurrection for their Salvation. Not a word about that as of yet. You can’t find it here. And that is what I try to tell people to understand. Don’t take my word for it. Search the Scriptures, but be sure you understand that the Scripture is putting Salvation on His death, burial, and Resurrection. Remember, there is never any reason to force anything into Scripture. Just leave them where they are. You can’t put a square peg in a round hole without doing a lot of damage. So here Peter is still on Covenant ground. Back to Acts 2:36:

Acts 2:36

"Therefore let all the house of Israel (He’s talking to Jew only) know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Now we have to compare Scripture with Scripture. Come to the Book of Galatians, and just look at the difference in the language. We just saw Peter accusing the Nation of Israel of killing their Messiah, and now look what Paul tells us here in the Church Age.

Galatians 1:3,4a

"Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins,..."

And that’s Paul’s theme all through his writings. It’s as different as day from night with Peter’s message. Peter’s sermon just doesn’t fit Paul’s doctrine at all. And it wasn’t supposed to. God hadn’t revealed Paul’s message yet. It’s still a secret kept in the mind of God. Now back to Acts verse 37:

Acts 2:37

"Now when they heard this (heard what? That they were guilty of crucifying their Messiah. And remember, Peter isn’t just talking to 40 or 50 people. He’s got thousands out in front of him listening out there in that Temple complex. This is the feast of Pentecost and they have come from everywhere as we seen in verses 9-11) they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, ‘Men and brethren what shall (what’s the pronoun?) we do?’"

Remember Peter is addressing this great crowd of Jews on Covenant ground. He has accused them of killing their Messiah, and now they are so convicted that I suppose in one way or another word gets up to Peter as he is speaking. And they say, "Well, Peter, what in the world are we (and remember that pronoun) supposed to do?" Now that is the question coming from the Nation of Israel.

Book 17 LESSON TWO * PART IV

Let’s pick up again in the Book of Acts and for a short review we will start at Chapter 2 verse 36. Remember this is a Jewish feast day that is being celebrated. Jews from the then-known world have come to celebrate the feast of Pentecost. This is one of the seven feasts listed in Leviticus 23. Now it’s on this day of Pentecost that this huge crowd of Jews are out there in the Temple area and Peter, through the power of the Holy Spirit, is addressing this great gathering. And regardless what nations these Jews have come from, they are hearing it in their own language. And this is the miracle of it all. Peter is speaking to Jew only (with an occasional proselyte). There is no Gentile ground here. God doesn’t put Gentiles in this group and neither should we. It’s a Jewish feast day, a Jewish crowd, a Jewish speaker, and a Jewish message. And now verse 36:

Acts 2:36,37

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly (this is all twelve tribes that are represented here, and God knows who they are), that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." Peter is accusing these Jews of killing Christ their Messiah. "Now when they heard this they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren what shall we do?" And before we look at Peter’s answer, I want to take you back to Acts Chapter 16.

In Chapter 16, Paul has begun his missionary journey throughout western Turkey. Earlier in this chapter the Holy Spirit directed him over into Greece. One of the first cities he approached there was Philippi. And that is where he met Lydia, who was the first European convert. After the conversion of Lydia, he is arrested and beaten along with Silas, and cast into the lower dungeon of the jail, as in verse 25. The setting is completely different than in Acts 2. This is all Gentile ground, a Gentile prison, a Gentile jailer, This Gentile jailer may have witnessed Paul and Silas preaching, and saw their arrest and beating. Now he was given charge over these two men along with the rest of the prisoners.

Acts 16:25-29

"And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God; and the prisoners heard them."

"And suddenly there was a great earthquake (we still haven’t left the economy of signs and miracles, and wonders. These will pass off the scene in Paul’s ministry at a little later time. But at this time we have a miraculous earthquake with a distinct purpose), so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one’s bands were loosed."

"And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled." The Roman authority would have killed him if prisoners had escaped.

"But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, ‘Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.’" Although they could have fled they didn’t, because this is a Sovereign God at work.

"Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,"

Why did this pagan Gentile jailer pick Paul and Silas out of all his prisoners? Somehow, God let him know that here was the answer to his dilemma. He’s got all these prisoners loose, ready to flee, but they are staying there. God lets that jailer know the answer to his problem, but it’s going to be a lot more than a bunch of prisoners, it’s going to be the man’s own soul.

Acts 16:30

"And brought them (Paul and Silas) out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Now look at the comparison.

Peter, preaching in Acts Chapter 2, is dealing with the Covenant Nation of Israel. And they say in verse 37, "What must we do?" But God doesn’t deal with Gentiles on Covenant ground. He deals with us as individuals. Every individual has to ask that same question. "What must I do...?" Let’s compare the answers each were given. In Acts Chapter 2, it is very clear, anyone can understand it. I’m leaving every word the way it’s in your Bible and mine. I’m not changing a thing. Israel says, "What must we do?" Look at Peter’s answer.

Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized (the next two words are crucial) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,’"

Everyone of them would have to be converted and accept Christ as their Messiah for God to pick up where He had left off. He would have sent back The King and set up the Kingdom. Peter also tells them this in Acts 3:26. Look at the message. Peter says, "Repent and be baptized." Who began that message? John the Baptist. John was the herald of The King, and his message was, "Repent and be baptized." That was for the Nation of Israel. Now compare this with Paul’s answer to the Gentile in Acts Chapter 16. Paul is not talking to the Nation of Israel, he’s talking to a Gentile. And when this Gentile asks what he must do to be saved, what does Paul tell him?

Acts 16:31

"And they (Paul and Silas) said, ‘Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.’"

Does it say Repent and be baptized? No, and if that was the criteria it would have been in here. That was the Jewish program, and by this time it has fallen through the cracks because Israel is rejecting it again. God has now turned to the Gentiles through the Apostle Paul, without Israel. So the jailer said, "What must I do?" The answer is simple: "Only Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ." Now when you know the rest of Paul’s message, he only had one Gospel to believe: "That Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose from the dead." You can find that message in many places in Paul’s letters, for example I Corinthians 15:1-4. Believe the Gospel. And it’s no different for Gentiles today, and the Jew as well. That is the criteria tonight. We have to believe the Gospel and nothing else. You search Paul’s letters from Romans through Hebrews (and Hebrews is more Jewish than the rest and there is a reason for that), and show me one place where Paul teaches repentance and baptism for Salvation. You won’t find it. Paul doesn’t teach it. Paul’s message is a different economy and you can’t mix them. A lot of people try to. Our Lord didn’t mix them and neither should we. The verses in Galatians 2:7-9 exist because they were two different messages. That’s why Peter says Paul’s message of Salvation is hard for him to understand in II Peter 3:15-16. To the Jew it was repent and be baptized. To the Gentile it is believe the Gospel. See how simple that is. Now let’s come back to Acts 2 and make another tremendous comparison. Read verse 38 again:

Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,...’" The whole Nation of Israel had to repent and be baptized.

Winning the whole world has never been implied with Paul. In Acts 15, when even James had to agree that God is using Paul to go to the Gentiles, what was the expression that James used? Calling out a people for His name. That doesn’t imply 99 or 100%. Christianity has always been just a small percentage. But we should always be ready to share the Gospel that Paul presents to everyone we come in contact with when the opportunity presents itself. I get a kick out of the Gallop polls, the last one I saw was 60% of Americans were professing Christians. That’s a joke because 60% of the Bible belt aren’t Bible believing Christians, let alone other vast areas of our country. But it’s always been that very small percentage, and it hasn’t changed that much. Another comparison here in verse 38:

Acts 2:38

"...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,"

I’ve had questions asked of me about this for many years, and let me ask you a question. What was the prerequisite in this verse for receiving the Holy Spirit? Repentance and baptism. That is the first part of the verse. Look at it again:

Acts 2:38

"...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Is there any mention of the death, burial, and Resurrection? Any mention of the shed blood for atonement? Not a word. But only the name. When you talk about the name of someone, what does that imply? Who he is. If I say the name of one of our Presidents, what do you associate that with? The White House. You speak the name and immediately it’s the position that you’re tied to. So, Peter doesn’t mention death, burial, and Resurrection. But what were they to put their faith in? Who Jesus was. He was The Christ their Messiah, and they had killed Him. But God had raised Him from the dead. They were to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and then they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. In Acts Chapter 10, we have Peter at the house of Cornelius, a Gentile. This is seven years after the Cross. Not a Gentile has been saved. Back in Acts 2, the Jews had to repent and be baptized, then they could receive the Holy Spirit. Now look at what it says here:

Acts 10:44

"While Peter yet spake (he hadn’t come to the end of his message) these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. "

And we know they all believed. Have they been baptized yet? No, these are Gentiles who haven’t heard anything of the Law. But the moment they believed Peter’s message the Holy Spirit came down, and the amazing thing is God had to prove to Peter and these six other Jews that God was doing something totally new, and that was saving Gentiles! Not on the basis of repentance and baptism, but the moment they heard the word and believed. Peter is still tied to that Jewish economy, so when he sees what is happening he commands these Gentile believers to be baptized after the fact instead of before as we saw in Acts 2:38:

Acts 10:47

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have (past tense) received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

This isn’t a contradiction, this is not Chapter 10 contradicting Chapter 2, but rather a change of events. Ten is Gentile and Two is still Jew. Acts is a transitional book, so always be aware that what was good for the Jew under that Jewish economy seems like a contradiction, but it’s not, it’s only God changing the program. The moment we believe for our Salvation the Gospel of Grace, that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose from the dead, the Holy Spirit baptizes us and we are saved. Don’t put the message that Peter preached and the message that Paul preached in a blender and mix it all up and expect to understand it. That will give you heartburn, and you will never be able to see what you should clearly believe for your Salvation. But if you will realize that God is changing the program when He goes to the Gentiles, and leave the Scriptures right where they are, I believe the Scriptures will be opened to you. So many people come into my classes and almost immediately have their eyes opened. I don’t do that, the Holy Spirit does that when you search the Scriptures.

Editor's Note: Peter's gospel, called the gospel of the kingdom or the gospel of the circumcision, was preached to the nation of Israel under the law of Moses. Paul's gospel, called the gospel of grace or the gospel of the uncircumcision, was preached to the Gentiles under grace. Whether we are Jew or Gentile, Paul's gospel is the way of salvation for us in this present age of grace.


"The only reason I shoot a 3.5" shell for turkeys is because they don't make a 4" one." - t123winters
Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382166
07/02/15 05:01 AM
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good read thumbup

Last edited by demp17; 07/02/15 05:02 AM.

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Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382174
07/02/15 05:15 AM
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There's only one Gospel,the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is not a gospel for gentiles and one for Jews.

Romans 2:28-29 King James Version (KJV)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.


Galatians 3:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382177
07/02/15 05:21 AM
07/02/15 05:21 AM
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I've read similar teaching before regarding some of that. Interesting read that makes you think in a different way.

Too often we all can get stuck in thinking routinely the way we have always been taught or preached to. It is good to stretch our legs and at least consider different perspectives. Not perspectives of opinion, but perspectives on Scripture.

There is much about the Bible that I do not know. But I have learned this...the more I dig deep in the Word and challenge myself with certain passages/concepts/theology------- the more I learn, the more connections I make, the better my vision and insight gets, and the increase of width, depth, breadth of knowledge of the Scriptures explodes.

The Gospel to the Gentiles....that really shook Peter up. God used his Jewish zeal to do His work...but opened his heart to the full Gospel message...which was life in Christ for the gentiles too.

But I do have an issue with this...maybe it was just poorly written and doesn't mean what it says.

Quote:
Editor's Note: Peter's gospel, called the gospel of the kingdom or the gospel of the circumcision, was preached to the nation of Israel under the law of Moses. Paul's gospel, called the gospel of grace or the gospel of the uncircumcision, was preached to the Gentiles under grace. Whether we are Jew or Gentile, Paul's gospel is the way of salvation for us in this present age of grace.


I can agree that both Peter and Paul were delivering the Gospel message....but it was the one and only gospel message. Now the Gospel message isn't just one sentence..it is rich and full. So if the editor/author meant that Peter was approaching the Jews with the Gospel in a certain way with certain emphasis because the Lord was leading him that way in order to reach their hearts with the message delivered in a way that made sense to them....and likewise Paul was delivering the Gospel to the Gentiles in a certain way, led by God, that they would understand...emphasis here might be different that Peter's emphasis----but the Gospel message was ONE-TRUE-THE SAME--------then I can agree.

But two different Gospels...literally.....Nope, that is outside of Scripture. Do a word search on verses with "gospel"...and you find over and over the words "The", This" preceding gospel....meaning one, specific and particular .

Mark 16:15-16
5 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:7-9
7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

One Gospel, two groups who with two different backgrounds needed two different approaches or two personalized messages to bring them collectively to the one true Gospel. Not two different Gospels in the sense they are different.

Last edited by straycat; 07/02/15 07:08 AM.

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Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: R_H_Clark] #1382183
07/02/15 05:38 AM
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JUGHEAD Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: R_H_Clark
There's only one Gospel,the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is not a gospel for gentiles and one for Jews.

Romans 2:28-29 King James Version (KJV)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.


Galatians 3:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The gentleman (Les Feldick) that wrote that would not argue with you at all. Or very little I would guess, given the fact that those books were written in the A.D. 49-62 time range, after Paul had been given revelation, directly from God, of the Gospel he was to preach to the Gentile nations. See Galatians 1:11, for example.

Last edited by JUGHEAD; 07/02/15 05:42 AM.

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Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382186
07/02/15 05:41 AM
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Maybe I got lost in the back and forth and missed the point.

Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: R_H_Clark] #1382195
07/02/15 05:53 AM
07/02/15 05:53 AM
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JUGHEAD Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: R_H_Clark
Maybe I got lost in the back and forth and missed the point.
He would argue that there WAS a different Gospel, preached specifically to the nation of Israel, from the time of John the Baptist (repent and be baptized for the remission of sins) up until God tabled his dealing with the nation of Israel (because of their unbelief in Christ as Messiah and lack of repentance as a whole) when he commissioned Paul and opened salvation through Christ to the gentiles. He would argue that in this present church age, a Jew can come to faith in Christ Jesus via the same " faith in the death, burial, and resurrection" Gospel that Paul preached to the gentile nations. You won't find Paul preaching "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" to gentiles. I've look really, really hard and it ain't in there. grin

Last edited by JUGHEAD; 07/02/15 06:02 AM.

"The only reason I shoot a 3.5" shell for turkeys is because they don't make a 4" one." - t123winters
Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382201
07/02/15 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: JUGHEAD
Originally Posted By: R_H_Clark
Maybe I got lost in the back and forth and missed the point.
He would argue that there WAS a different Gospel, from the time of John the Baptist (repent and be baptized for the remission of sins) up until God tabled his dealing with the nation of Israel (because of their unbelief in Christ as Messiah and lack of repentance as a whole) when he commissioned Paul and opened salvation through Christ to the gentiles. He would argue that in this present church age, a Jew can come to faith in Christ Jesus via the same death, burial, and resurrection Gospel that Paul preached to the gentile nations. You won't find Paul preaching "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" to gentiles. I've look really, really hard and it ain't in there. grin


Maybe I still don't get it but it seems that he is saying that water baptism was required only for the early Jews. If that's the case,it's a stretch to me that I can't see from what I know of scripture.

Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382212
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It's interesting to think about, especially considering Paul rebuked Peter at Antioch for treatment of Gentiles.

Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382236
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Originally Posted By: JUGHEAD
Originally Posted By: R_H_Clark
Maybe I got lost in the back and forth and missed the point.
He would argue that there WAS a different Gospel, preached specifically to the nation of Israel, from the time of John the Baptist (repent and be baptized for the remission of sins) up until God tabled his dealing with the nation of Israel (because of their unbelief in Christ as Messiah and lack of repentance as a whole) when he commissioned Paul and opened salvation through Christ to the gentiles. He would argue that in this present church age, a Jew can come to faith in Christ Jesus via the same " faith in the death, burial, and resurrection" Gospel that Paul preached to the gentile nations. You won't find Paul preaching "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" to gentiles. I've look really, really hard and it ain't in there. grin


Interesting indeed. My response above was delayed in posting because my internet went down in mid-stream.

I've never considered it or looked at it that way. Not sure I agree, but it does make for an opportunity to research and study.


"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8

"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.� Samuel Adams
Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: R_H_Clark] #1382292
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Originally Posted By: R_H_Clark
Maybe I still don't get it but it seems that he is saying that water baptism was required only for the early Jews. If that's the case,it's a stretch to me that I can't see from what I know of scripture.
If you read through all of his teachings, you will further see that what he is saying is that the Gospel (he calls it the Gospel of the Kingdom) that was originally spoken through John the Baptist was to Israel ONLY. Based upon the fact that Jesus was the promised Messiah and King, through the lineage of Abraham, to the nation of Israel FIRST. He contends that everything we have in Scripture is still Old Covenant up until the time that God decided (Acts 11, around 41 AD, the establishment of THE church, where Christ followers were first called Christians), according to his perfect will, that Israel's time as a nation, to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" had expired. Remember that from the day of Pentecost until revelation of the "Gospel of Grace", unto Paul and Paul alone (who is OUR high priest as Gentiles, see the early chapters of Galatians, and also 2 Peter 3 where Peter confesses that what has been revealed to Paul by God is hard for him to understand), is a period of at least 12 years. Because of His covenant promise, according to Feldick, God was giving the ENTIRE nation of Israel time to hear and believe that Christ was the promised Messiah and to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins." According to Feldick, had the nation of Israel as a whole believed upon Christ Jesus as Messiah and the Gospel preached to them all throughout Israel (by Peter, James, etc. who never ventured from Jerusalem and the immediate surrounding areas during that timeframe because their calling was to evangelize the nation of Israel and call them to repentance) in those years following the day of Pentecost, then Christ Jesus would have returned RIGHT THEN to setup his 1000 year reign, after a 7 year tribulation of course. And at that time, Christ would have made the entire nation of Israel into priests unto the entire world of Gentiles.

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT fully understand all of Les Feldick's teachings nor do I claim to believe them all just yet. Please don't quote me on what I just wrote but that is the gist of it as I currently understand it. The one thing I will say is that I have tried over and over to disprove his teachings of the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace (for the current church age which he claims started around 41 AD) and I have a really hard time convincing myself it isn't true. I just find it really, really hard to accept that at the day of Pentecost, voila, the door was wide open for the Gentiles as a whole and all of a sudden we were on par with the nation of Israel from a redemption standpoint, when there had been no evangelism to the Gentiles, the Gentiles had never been part of the covenant picture and Scriptures whatsoever (as a whole of course), every single conversion of a Gentile in the Gospels and in the early books of Acts was dry as a bone, when they exercised faith ALONE, as opposed to the Jews receiving the Holy Spirit ONLY after they repented and were baptized. Really, really interesting stuff to me.

Last edited by JUGHEAD; 07/02/15 09:27 AM.

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Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382298
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I love Les Feldick.. I watch his bible studies on YouTube all the time.
Also E.C.Moore is good


Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382301
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Ephesians 4: 3-6


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Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: ridgestalker] #1382304
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Originally Posted By: ridgestalker
Ephesians 4: 3-6
Those scriptures blend beautifully with what Les teaches. No conflict whatsoever.

Last edited by JUGHEAD; 07/02/15 09:37 AM.

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Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382316
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So which Gospel did Paul obey when he became a Christian? Then we are to believe he turned around and preached something else. crazy

Last edited by ridgestalker; 07/02/15 10:28 AM.

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Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: ridgestalker] #1382331
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This is all about the mystery revealed to Paul
[url=graceambassadors.com/mystery/what-is-the-mystery-revealed-to-paul][/url]

Last edited by Pauly; 07/02/15 10:33 AM.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: ridgestalker] #1382337
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Originally Posted By: ridgestalker
So which Gospel did Paul obey when he became a Christian? Then we are to believe he turned around and preached something else. crazy
That is absolutely what Feldick preaches and believes. And it's really, really hard to refute. I've been trying for about 5 years now. grin

Couple of excerpts. #1:


Galatians 1:15

"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,"


The other night I took the Strong’s concordance, and I counted all the times that Grace was used between Matthew 1:1 and Acts chapter 9. How many times do you suppose it was? Sixteen times, and then it wasn’t even used as a doctrinal term, but rather as the word Grace. From Acts chapter 9 until the end of Paul’s letters I counted eighty-four times Paul had used that word. Six times more is the word Grace referred to in Paul’s epistles than everything that went before his writing. Now that’s shocking isn’t it? And yet it shouldn’t be, because this is the apostle of Grace. I have a book at home, I think the title is The Apostle of the Soul Set Free. It was a biography of the apostle Paul. I didn’t like the book all that much, but I sure did like the title. Now that says it all doesn’t it? Now in the short time we have left let’s look at verse 16.


Galatians 1:16a

"To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen;..." (Gentiles)


That’s Paul specific calling, to take this Gospel of Grace to the Gentile world. And that’s why I put it this way over the years, that as the Law was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai for Israel, Paul goes out to Mt. Sinai, and God gave him the doctrines of Grace for us. Now that’s beyond human comprehension. Now finishing the verse.


Galatians 1:16b-17a

"...immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia..." (that would be Mt. Sinai)


Then Paul goes on to say that this whole mystery of the Gospel was revealed to him, and that why I’m always stressing Paul’s apostleship, and spending most of our time in his letters.

#2:


Now we’re into an area of Scripture that a lackadaisical Christian won’t get into. But for those of you who really love the Word, and love the Lord, and love to study, of course Ephesians is a tremendous little Book that’s only 6 chapters long. But the whole idea of this Book is for us to understand who we are in Christ. It doesn’t matter whether we’re rich or poor, Jew or Gentile that is not the point. We are all one when we become members of the Body of Christ, which we’ll be seeing later even in this chapter.


Now picking up where we left off in the last lesson, we had gotten down to verse 3 where Paul again is taking credit for having the revelation of the mystery or the secret that has been held in the mind of God ever since the world began, which you pick up down in verse 9. In fact let’s just read verse 9 so that you’ll see why I’m spending so much time on this up here in the first 2 or 3 verses.


Ephesians 3:9a

"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, (secrets) which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,..."


See, that goes right back to our first lesson this afternoon where God has the ability to hide things because He’s Sovereign. (Deuteronomy 29:29) As we teach we always try to be Biblical, it isn’t just my idea, or some denomination’s idea, but what does the Word of God really say? So these things have been hidden in the mind of God ever since the very onset of human history, but now are revealed particularly through this apostle. Now always remember when we speak of the apostle Paul as having the revelations there were other men that followed in his footsteps. We know that Barnabas started out with his ministry, and then came Silas, and then you have Apollos who comes into the picture. Then of course Timothy and Titus, and then there were also probably others, but they were all working in Paul’s footsteps, and each were proclaiming Paul’s Gospel of Grace. Paul makes that so plain in his second letter to Timothy.


II Timothy 4:1a-2

"I charge thee therefore before God,...2. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." (And now verse 5 and 6)


II Timothy 4:5-6

"But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 6. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.


Paul is going to be taken off the scene, but he is charging the young man Timothy to continue with these mysteries you might say, that have been revealed to this unique individual. So now back to verse 3, where Paul tells us about these secrets.


Ephesians 3:3-4

"How that by revelation (by revealing) he made known unto me the mystery; (these things that had been kept secret) (as I wrote afore in few words, (in chapters 1 and 2) 4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"


Now what in the world can he be talking about unless it’s something that had never before been revealed. This is the idea then of the revelations of the mystery. All right let’s go back to Romans so we can put some other Scripture verses with this. Romans is the foundational Book of Paul’s letters so far as doctrine in concerned. And yet Romans does not relay some of these deeper things that we’re already seeing in Ephesians, but he does make one reference to all this in his closing remarks in chapter 16.


This is a verse that I’ll refer to time and time again, because it says so much that most of Christendom hears nothing of. And why preachers and teachers avoid it I’ll never know, but I would love for people to just call me if they hear a sermon on Romans 16:25, because I’d like to know about it. So those of you out there who are pastors and are listening to me, goodness sake preach a sermon now and then on this verse, because this is what people have to hear.


Romans 16:25

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, (we have to proclaim the message) which was kept secret since the world begin."


See, Paul was the very first one to preach this Gospel that Jesus died for you, was buried and rose again. No one else in Scripture preaches this as a salvation doctrine. This had been kept secret in the mind of God since the world began until revealed to this apostle, and you just can’t get around it. I’ve had people ridiculously try to tell me that Adam was saved by believing the Gospel. Isn’t that ridiculous? The Gospel hadn’t been revealed. All Adam and Eve did for salvation was do what God instructed them to do. Abel did what God instructed him to do, but they certainly didn’t know anything about the death, burial and resurrection and a crucifixion. They couldn’t have or this verse would be a lie.


They couldn’t have crucifixion because crucifixion wasn’t invented until the Romans thought it up, Sovereignly of course. No one had a concept, according to Paul, of the Gospel as we now know it. In fact let’s go all the way back to Peter’s first little epistle. And this was written at the end of Peter’s ministry, just as well as II Timothy is written at the end of Paul’s ministry, and I think they were both martyred within a year or so of each other. So this Scripture was written at about 65 or 66 AD, and Peter writes starting in verse 10 of chapter 1.


I Peter 1:10-11

"Of which salvation (as we now know in the age of Grace, and I’m sure he is now alluding to Paul’s Gospel at least somewhat.) the prophets (Old Testament writers) have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (now look at the next verse) 11. Searching (they were looking, and looking for something they couldn’t find. And they never did find it.) what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."


Now when I teach my classes here in Oklahoma we have time for questions and discussion, these things come up and we can cover them in detail. Now all the way though the Old Testament, in fact I usually put it this way on the board: all the way through the Old Testament you have two parallel lines of thoughts, they’re just like two railroad tracks. All the way up through the Old Testament, especially from Genesis chapter 12. "One of them is the coming of a suffering Savior, and the other one is the coming of a ruling King." Scattered throughout the Old Testament there are verses that allude either to the first one or the second one. I remember reading many many years ago where some of the ancient Rabbi’s were all hung up on the situation around Rachel and the birth of Benjamin. And those of you who know your Old Testament know that as Rachel was dying she named Benjamin.


Genesis 35:18

"And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin."


Benoni was "the son of my suffering." But Benjamin was "the son of my strength." Well the Rabbi’s could deduct that this was either the name of a suffering Saviour, which would be Benoni. Or Benjamin the son of my strength which depicted a ruling King, so for centuries were hung up about this. Well how could this be unless they would have two Messiahs So that was also in their thoughts, "Maybe there are two Messiahs instead of one." So when the Messiah came He had to be first the suffering Savior, you know that. He couldn’t be the King until He’d redeemed the Nation of Israel. So for most Jewish people today, bless their heart, they still can’t reconcile the fact that He has already fulfilled the "Benoni" part, but are waiting for the soon return of His Second Coming to be the ruling King. It’s the same Person, but fulfilling both roles 2000 years apart. Now this is exactly what Peter is talking about. Now read it again.


I Peter 1:11

"Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them (as they wrote by inspiration) did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, (the Benoni) and the glory that should follow." (which was the Kingdom Age where He will rule and reign as King)


But did they ever figure it out? No. Was it their fault? No, because they weren’t supposed to as that was all kept secret in the mind of God. Now after reading Romans 16:25 a moment ago where Paul says "it’s the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mysteries," let’s come on to I Corinthians chapter 4, and look at another one. Remember Paul writes here to the Gentiles at Corinth so in effect he’s writing more or less to us.


I Corinthians 4:1

"Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God."


Now I told you in a lesson or two back that a part of the administration of the Grace of God, or a part of the dispensation of God was that there had to be an administrator. Abraham spoke of it way back when he was promised a son, and said, "Lord all I have is this Eliezer of Damascus who is the steward of my property." Eliezer was the administrator, so that’s a perfect analogy. Now let’s come back to what we used earlier.


Here we have a corporation, and we have a gentlemen at the very top, he’s the chief executive officer. This gentlemen has gotten his education, he’s probably gotten his degree in business administration, he goes and gets a masters degree from Harvard, and he works his way up through the ranks, and all of a sudden he’s the chief executive officer of this great corporation. Now he’s worked hard to get to that position, and he’s being paid well for it. What is expected of him? To be a good administrator. That’s his job. Now that’s exactly what Paul is telling every one of us, that as soon as you get a good grasp on these mysteries, on these revelations that have been given to the apostle Paul, what are we to do with it? Pass them on! Administrate them, dispense them, do you see that?


But oh Christendom is so slow to react, and I keep thinking all the time of some of the great Bible teachers of generations back who saw the apostasy that was coming. They were almost pleading then already that the average Christian would get skilled in the Word of God so that when the apostasy would come that we could by person to person pass these things on. So this is what the apostle is saying, in verse 1, "that we are to be stewards of these secrets of God that are now revealed " Now reading verse 2.


I Corinthians 4:2

"Moreover it is required in stewards, (or managers,) that a man be found faithful."


We’re not to be sloppy, we’re not to be careless. We are to be constantly passing the Word on, and showing folks, what does it say. Not what you think it says, not what I say, or some preacher says, but show them what does the Word say. So we’re to be faithful stewards of the mysteries. Well let’s come on over to another favorite one of mine, and that of course is I Corinthians 15:51. And we’re getting closer and closer to this portion of Scripture being fulfilled. I think it’s a lot closer than most people like to think. Notice the word mystery just jumps off the page at you.


I Corinthians 15:51-52

"Behold I shew you a mystery; (Paul is going to tell us something here something that has never even been hinted at anywhere else in the Bible. The Old Testament knew nothing of it. Jesus never referred to it, although He knew about it. He too kept it secret, and the mystery is that) We shall not all sleep, (or die physically) but we shall all be changed. (we can’t go to glory in this old body of flesh, so we’re going to have to be changed. Now reading verse 52.) In a moment, (a finely split particle of time. It’s actually less than a second) in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the (believing) dead shall be raised incorruptible, (like Christ’s resurrected body) and we shall be changed."


Those believers who are alive when this happens will be changed! Now that’s what the Scriptures say, this isn’t my idea, but rather this is what the Book says. We will be made incorruptible, because you see this corruptible body can’t go into glory so it has to be changed, and it will be in that split second. Well that’s all part of what Paul calls the mysteries. Since we’re in this chapter, let’s go back to those first four verses and look at another mystery that was only given to Paul. We’ve used these verses over and over because they are so paramount to our being ready for the mystery of what we just read. This passage is the Gospel of the Grace of God that all must believe in order to be changed at the Rapture of the Church we just read about. Here it is, this is the Gospel of the Grace of God, and according to Romans 16:25 it had been kept secret since the world began before being given to Paul. In fact Paul says it’s "his Gospel," and the reason he could make such a statement was it was given to him for mankind by the crucified risen Lord in glory.


I Corinthians 15:1-3a

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand: 2. By which (the Gospel) also ye are saved, (now that’s as plain as you can get it.) if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (now here’s the Gospel we must believe) 3. For I delivered unto you first..."


And he was the first one to reveal the Gospel of Grace. So here the Holy Spirit is absolutely true in having him write that I delivered it unto you first of all. Why? Because Paul was the one to whom it was first revealed, and oh that’s so hard for people to swallow. Oh they say what did Jesus preach if that’s the case? Well He preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Gospel of the Kingdom was a whole different message than the Gospel of Grace that was given Paul. Also remember Jesus preached that which was still under the Law. Every word that Jesus taught and preached in His earthly ministry was to the Nation of Israel under the Law. Never once did Jesus tell someone, "Well you don’t have to go to the temple, you don’t have to take sacrifices, you don’t have to keep the Law, because you’re under Grace." Most people think that’s the way it was, but nothing could be further from the truth. Read your Bible and see what it says.


On the other hand that was Paul’s message. They didn’t have to keep the law, they weren’t under the demands of the law, but rather the Gentile Body of Christ is under Grace. Paul got into trouble more than once by proclaiming that message, because he had Jewish converts that still wanted to be under the Law. Now reading on as we were about to finish the Gospel that God had given him for us in the Church Age.


I Corinthians 15:3-4

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, (and here is what Paul received. This was the revelation) how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures: 4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures."


Now folks that the Gospel! And when we believe that then God does everything else. He has already forgiven us, and so He imputes it on our behalf, He sanctifies us, He justifies us, He glorifies us, He baptizes us into the Body, He does all those good things when we believe this Gospel. And this Gospel was all part of the mysteries that had been given to Paul. These mysteries had never been revealed before, and I’ve begged people constantly to just go back anywhere else in Scripture, "Are you going to find this message for salvation?" Why of course not. You won’t find this message any place else. This simply is the message of the Gospel of the Grace of God, or as Paul says in another place "we preached Christ crucified, and risen again." I don’t want to belabor the point, but oh if we can just get folks to understand that these mysteries, these secrets that God never revealed until He revealed them to this chosen vessel to take it to the Gentile world. Now coming back to Ephesians chapter 3.


Ephesians 3:5

"Which in other ages (or generations) was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;"


Well I’ve already alluded to them as being Barnabas, Silas, Apollos, Titus, and Timothy, and then there were other great men that followed after that. But it all begin with this man and his commitment to take the Gospel to the Gentile world. I had such a touching letter the other day from a person who was describing all the sufferings they had been through, and it was awful. It was almost more than what one person should have. But he said, "You know Les, until I started hearing you teach Paul, I would get so bitter, and I would blame God for all my troubles and sufferings, but now whenever pain comes, I just say, "Thank you Lord, because if Paul can do it, if he was sold out to serve You then I can be also." This is what Paul tried to get across, that his suffering for the sake of the Gospel was to encourage us. Because otherwise all I have to do is be a true servant like Paul was and then everything will go smooth. But you see it doesn’t always work like that. So no matter how loyal Paul was to his Lord, yet he suffered, and suffered and finally he died the martyr’s death. So this is a lesson for us, that this is why he says, "Be ye followers of me, as I follow Christ." Remember Paul was just as human as you and I.


"The only reason I shoot a 3.5" shell for turkeys is because they don't make a 4" one." - t123winters
Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382341
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Sorry buddy I ain't buying what this LES is selling.


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Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: JUGHEAD] #1382344
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I'm ending a Bible study soon on Jude....first time ever to specifically study it, and I think I know what I'm going to study next.


"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8

"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.� Samuel Adams
Re: Spinoff of the Baptism/Salvation Thread [Re: ridgestalker] #1382350
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Originally Posted By: ridgestalker
Sorry buddy I ain't buying what this LES is selling.
I wouldn't DARE expect you to immediately be convinced of something different, on such an important theological issue. Heck, I'm not either. But if there has ever been a man on this earth that challenged me to deep dive God's word more, I have never met him. His ministry has been perhaps the biggest example of "iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another" (Proverbs 27:17) in my entire Christian walk.


"The only reason I shoot a 3.5" shell for turkeys is because they don't make a 4" one." - t123winters
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