We don't know much about Noah but I think he was saved the same way Abraham was. The scripture says Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. Abraham's obedience "circumcision" was a seal of the faith he had in God."Rom.4"

I never said "obedience cancels out grace" nor did I say that "Grace cancels out obedience" Obedience is the result of grace. What's so unfortunate is that many in the church world think Grace is the result of obedience. Actually it is but it's the result of Christ's obedience and not of ours.

Understand completely about Matthew 5:17 ff... my point there was that EVERY word in the bible is important - not just some. Whether then or now, Jesus doesn't endorse relaxing anything found in God's word.

As you claim I must understand that I am saved by grace alone, you cannot harmonize this statement with 1 Peter 1:21 or even Ephesians 2:8. God chooses to save when man responds to His offer of grace. The demons understand this system of grace, but they fail to respond accordingly (James 2:19). Regarding your citation of Romans 4:3, you can find the exact opposite idea in James 2:21. In that same passage, we learn that Abraham wouldn't have been justified had he not obeyed the Lord. One of the cardinal rules about drawing any conclusions about a biblical topic is to examine everything the NT says about a subject... James' text supplements that of Paul's here.

I do have a question for you though... at what point is a person saved? Is there anything he/she must do in order to be saved initially?

To be saved a person must believe God. You must Believe that God sent his son to be your savior and accept that what Jesus did on the cross, saved you from your sins.

The scripture is very clear that Abraham didn't do anything to be righteous except believe God. Abraham's actions were simply a result of his belief. The entire book of Romans is dedicated to showing you that you are justified by faith without works.Also Galatians. take the entire book of James into consideration and he is not saying that a man is justified by works, he is saying that a justified man has works as a result of his faith.

I never said that a man didn't have to believe or have faith in grace for it to be active in his life, but you are not saved by grace plus anything you can do except believe. If you are saying you must believe, then I completely agree with you. If however you say you must do something else, I do not agree with you.

I understand what you are saying, but it is more than belief. Satan believes he just doesn't accept. We need faith, surrender and acceptance.

A Christian who is saved will bear good fruit. As Christs refines us and prunes us (as branches on the vine) we will bear more and better fruit. It is the natural flow out of our heart that abides with Christ. It requires effort too on our part.

Galatians 5:22-23 tells us about this fruit
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

These are character traits, attitudes, attributes and motivations of the heart type of things. It is not a list of duties, works or obligations. It tells what the new heart in Christ will look like.

In our love for others we should strive to love as Christ loved us..Jesus's new commandment for us...the Law of Christ. Christ died for us and was willing to take on the sin of the world for us so that we might have salvation. Our love for others should mirror that self-sacrificing kind of love.

In our joy we are to stay focused on Christ and his love for us looking forward to our Hope, not be yoked by the problems of the world. We will have problems in life for we live in a fallen world, but we are to turn them over to Christ at the foot of the cross.

In our peace we should seek to be peacemakers as far as it depends on us, not quarreling or stirring up strife. We should engage in equipping, encouraging, building up, and loving those around us.

In our patience we should learn to wait on the Lord and die to our desire of worldly instant gratification, accepting God's timing as the best timing.

In our kindness we should love each other deeply and help those in need and offer ourselves as living sacrifices to those around us by using our time, talents and resources in ways that helps and benefits others...all the while with a good disposition and love.

In our goodness we should subscribe to the just, righteous, pure, Holy and true things and flee from and avoid the ungodly and worldly things that are harmful to us because this promotes honor, virtue, integrity when we imitate Christ.

In our faithfulness we are to be true to our Lord, true to our spouses, true to our families, true to our word.

In our gentleness we will strive to be loving, fair, honest and compassionate--even when wronged--because anger, malice, revenge and dissension are not what God has intended for us.

In our self-control we have a duty and an obligation to put forth every effort to be self-governing through all humbleness of spirit in all situations, not letting Satan toss us like the wind, we are to stand firm and in control of our emotions, attitudes, and actions.


These fruit of the Spirit are heart centered and to have them in full measure it does take obedience on our part. Obedience to God is being open to let Him use us for His Purposes and Glory, not stiff-necked and hard hearted as well as following any specific commands or teaching. But that obedience has its root in our faith, love and changed heart for we will desire to obey and desire to bear fruit.

Very few of the people in this thread studied Anthropology. On a literature standpoint, read the story of Gilgamesh and countless others. Jesus Christ's story was not an original. I am a believer in a higher power, but when Christ's story copies so many it's hard to think he is All and Everything. As a smart man in Thomas Paine said in Common Sense, published Jan. 10th 1776, " My mind is my own church."

I completely agree with the spirit of what you are saying. The revelation I have received just in the last couple years however is that the only labor involved on my part is that I labor to enter into His rest. My labor to achieve all the things you are saying is to rest in his finished work in me.

It is my focus on my new life in Christ that produces fruit. If I labor to produce fruit I have taken my focus off Jesus and placed it on myself and without complete connection to the vine, the branch will bear no fruit.

Satan will try to get my focus off Christ and onto myself and what I can do to produce Godly fruit in my life. If I fall into this trap, I will produce no fruit. My labor is to develop a complete trust and reliance on Christ in every area of my life. I must develop a knowledge that Christ is always in me, always with me, always there to advise and correct. It is this complete rest in his finished work that produces fruit. I am not becoming perfected. In Christ I am perfected. All I need to perfect is my knowledge and trust that Christ has already completed me.

Heb.10:14 "For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

To be saved a person must believe God. You must Believe that God sent his son to be your savior and accept that what Jesus did on the cross, saved you from your sins.

The scripture is very clear that Abraham didn't do anything to be righteous except believe God. Abraham's actions were simply a result of his belief. The entire book of Romans is dedicated to showing you that you are justified by faith without works.Also Galatians. take the entire book of James into consideration and he is not saying that a man is justified by works, he is saying that a justified man has works as a result of his faith.

I never said that a man didn't have to believe or have faith in grace for it to be active in his life, but you are not saved by grace plus anything you can do except believe. If you are saying you must believe, then I completely agree with you. If however you say you must do something else, I do not agree with you.