Christian Essentials

Recently there have been some posts made with a negative view of Reformed Theology (Calvinism). And there have been other posts made with negative views of certain churches, denominations, other theological or doctrinal beliefs, and even Bible translations. As believers in Christ Jesus and Almighty God, we should all stand firm in the Truth while at the same time encourage and promote unity in the body of Christ (all true believers). How we discuss (words and attitudes) our faith has an impact on those around us. We should stand firm in the truth and essentials and never waiver, but we all need to drape ourselves with love, gentleness and compassion.

Do we always have the same view or opinions on certain issues or topics? No.
Do we always believe the exact same things from A to Z? No.
Do we all conform to one worship style or experience? No.

But we all can have unity in the Christian Essentials. Certain truths in God’s Word are a must if we are to call ourselves Christian believers. They are essential and are the core common connection of unity within the body of Christ. Things outside of these essentials are important for a full Christian life, but our salvation isn’t based on these things. This is such an important thing to get right in our hearts and minds. There is unity in the Gospel and God calls us to be unified and an encouragement to each other for HIS GLORY. We are to build up, equip, and encourage one another. We are to rebuke for the sole purpose of edifying and teaching to bring a person to a true understanding based on the Word alone. All must be done out of love. For if it is not, then it is worthless and actually harmful.

The Christian Essentials:
1. Jesus is God: God in flesh; the proper place for our faith and worship; Part of the Trinity (Father, Son, Spirit); Jesus is God and man; the only and perfect sacrifice for sins

2. Salvation is in Christ alone, through Faith alone BY GRACE ALONE: The law doesn’t save us just Grace from god and faith in the true Jesus; salvation is the forgiveness of sins and saving from God’s just judgment; accomplished by Christ alone through faith alone by grace alone.

3. Christ died and was Resurrected: This really happened as Christ bore the sins and died a real death but was resurrected the third day and defeated death; He rose from the dead.

4. The GOSPEL Message: There is but one Gospel: WE are sinners deserving God’s judgment, we are separated from god in our sins, By God’s Grace he offers His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins, Jesus who is God in the flesh died for our sins, rose from the dead, and gives the free gift of salvation to those who believe in Him, which is the only way to gain salvation—in Christ alone, through Faith alone, by Grace alone.

5. There is but One God: God Almighty in the Bible (OT and NT) is the one and only God; there shall be no other gods before Him (false deities or things we make idols); God is the only one to be worshiped.

6. Jesus is the only way to Salvation: Period.; 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'" John 14:6 sums it up perfectly; Salvation is through Christ alone and not “Gospel Plus” (where works earn your salvation) and not being “spiritual” or a “good person” and not through some other worship of a false teaching that does not acknowledge the Gospel message verbatim.

7. Jesus born as a man by Virgin Birth: For the incarnation of Christ as God in the flesh, the virgin birth is an essential. John 8:24 tells us that if we deny that Jesus is God we are dead in our sins.

8. The Trinity: The Scripture as a whole from genesis to Revelation reveals the doctrine of the Trinity as God having three distinct persons (God, Son, and Holy Spirit) and that Christ was with God from the beginning as the Word and the Word became Flesh. There is not one unique verse that details the Trinity but multiple verses reveal the nature of God.

For more detailed look into the essentials, check out http://carm.org/christian-doctrine


Upon these ESSENTIALS is where the Unity in the Body of Christ can EASILY rest. These foundational truths are to be universal among every Christian believer and every Christian church. If they are not, then there is a false doctrine and a false belief because to deny one is to deny the inherent attributes of Christ and the Gospel Message. Is this strict?…yes but it is the Truth and is supported by the entirety of the Scriptures.

We obviously know that there may be some different ideas on certain topics and different views on how and why….but these common essentials above will remain intact as they are not impacted. Even with the strong doctrinal divides between strict Arminianism and strict Calvinism, there is perfect unity WHEN there is agreement on these core essentials—the heart of the Gospel. Even with doctrinal and worship divisions between various Christian church denominations, there is perfect unity WHEN there is agreement on these core essentials—the heart of the Gospel. WHEN there is agreement then there can easily be encouragement, fellowship, support and working together to advance the Gospel. There is room to discussions and deeper study on other theological and doctrinal issues (we all know many of them). Even with different views and disagreements on certain theology, salvation is not in question as long as the essentials are trusted and believed. We can love each other fully and unite on these common core essentials.

I am not saying that certain issues should be glossed over either. Certain beliefs have implications and consequences and can impact living out a full Christian life. We can discuss baptism being required for salvation as actual (water required) or symbolic (reflects a circumcision of the heart); “once saved always saved” vs. the ability to lose salvation; Election and Predestination, Free Will, Old Earth with millions/billions of years before Adam vs. Young Earth staring with a literal 6 days, etc.. These are important doctrines and many of us on Aldeer have various views and we all have our Scripture references to back up our beliefs. How we believe has an impact on how we live our lives, how we witness and how our lives are filled with a relationship with God. But as Christians we all hold the same belief in the essentials--who God is, He attributes, who Christ is, His attributes, what the Gospel is, what salvation is and is not. These are the essentials and we can have these hot topic discussion with love and in a way that glorifies God in the process. I for one need to learn to be slow to speak and remind myself of my own "preaching"--it is easy to get worked up and spout off at the mouth.

The Common Essentials will also reveal all manners and kinds of false doctrines, false teaching, false religions that lead away from Christ. The Gospel is divisive and exposes darkness with the Light of Truth. However, we are unified and united as a body of believers in Christ through these Christian essentials. This is where our hearts and minds should rest when we discuss matters of faith.

I need to add this as well: When we dive deep into the Word and actually start studying these basic, fundamental, foundational truths that are the essentials and the Christian faith...well something remarkable routinely happens. WE GROW IN OUR UNDERSTANDING and we deepen our wisdom, knowledge and insights because God uses our meditation and study to move us closer to Him in relationship. It is very common for a Christian who is really digging into the Word and studying the essential truths that all of Christianity is founded upon to change their views on issues. Where they once had a limited understanding they now have a more full understanding and it can prompt us to either narrow or expand our theology. Personally I think that there is such disagreement on various topics because most of us have never really studied the basic principles and essentials at a high level. Once we deepen our understanding of who God really is, Once we really "get" what Jesus really did for us, once we see the Gospel in total from Genesis to Revelation, Once we become deeply intimate with the truth...it is hard for us not to gain a better perspective and gain new and better understanding---it makes sense that we will take a look at what beliefs we hold, what doctrines we subscribe to, what theology we align with and make sure that they are all in line with Scripture. It prompts us to analyze. Who knows we might just understand unity after all.

Spot on! blessings Oats

I forgot to add something, see edit.

While I appreciate your appeal for unity, the idea of "core essentials" cannot be found in Scripture. 1 Corinthians 1:10 claims followers of Christ must be agreed... that we must be united... that we must believe and speak the same thing. Ephesians 4:3 indicates that it doesn't come naturally - rather, we must make this an endeavor - something to be striving towards. Nothing, however, in those discussions lead a person to conclude there are only a few issues that must be agreed upon. Because people refuse to be unified, many people tell us today that everyone agreeing to lists like the one above (or a creed) must be OK... which leads to a watering down of what Jesus said in places like Matthew 5:19 and Matthew 28:20.

Good post Straycat. I heard someone refer to these issues in terms of "state borders" and "national borders" (this is not a statement on the current state of our borders :)). State border issues you can disagree on but they are not a test of salvation. These might include church governance, style of baptism, etc. National border issues are issues worth doing battle over. These would include the divinity of Christ, Salvation through faith alone by grace alone, etc. I always liked that analogy.
That said, many on both sides of the Calvinist/Arminian debate are more concerned with being seen as being right and accumulating followers than they are about truth. Many, on both sides, don't even know what both sides teach. They only know that their favorite preacher says that the guys on the other side are false teachers. For instance, many Arminians consider "election" to be some doctrine from the pit of hell. They don't realize that true Arminianism believes in election as well. The argument is essentially over the mind of God on the beginning and sustaining of salvation. Isaiah 40:13 is pretty clear that men can't understand God's wisdom about such things.
The truth is that some are saved and some are not. In the meantime, Christians are called to be ambassadors for Christ and to freely share the love and the grace that has been freely given to them.

I disagree. How's that for unity I get what you are saying so let me try to clarify in case that helps you see from my perspective.

The Gospel is the fullness of the core essentials of Christianity. Those elements I listed are all part of the Gospel message. The Gospel by its very nature defines who God is, who Christ is, their very nature and attributes. The Gospel defines salvation and the work of the cross. The Gospel, and its inherent elements, is the core essential. If one or more of those 8 core elements are missing, then that takes away from the Gospel message.

The Law of Christ is Love. That is what we are to keep in fullness. And if something other than that is taught or put into a list, then it is surely watered down and useless. It would naturally conflict with the Gospel and by default those core essentials.

It is on this (the Gospel) there should be full unity, but as you correctly stated there often is not.

This is why creeds exist - so that people can tell others what part of Scripture is truly "vital"... and that which is not. The problem with that process is that fallible men are the ones claiming such principles. Also, you never find Jesus saying "now THIS is important, but not my other teachings". However, He DID say that whoever abides in His teachings would make one a true disciple - implication being ALL His commandments (John 8:31-32). The "hot discussion topics" as you call them are part of God's revealed will... and DO have a bearing on one's salvation. If not, God went to a whole lot of trouble to reveal His will just so we can say "this is important and this is not."

As far as love goes, I agree that it is foundational to our faith. However, one must define love from the way it is defined in Scripture - not the way man wants to define it.

Buddhism seems like a good code to live by.

How so?

Here's a Roman Catholic that agrees with you!

Basically says to be a good kind and helpful person and to continue to better yourself your whole life. Seems a little less complicated

I'll make this my last response to you regarding this, as I think you are not getting what I mean. I may be doing an awful job in my writing, if so then it is on me. I do not want to have an argument that distracts in any way. So to additionally clarify:

I haven't discussed creeds. It was never said in my original post that some Scripture is unimportant. Never said to cherry pick from what Jesus taught. If it is in God's Word there is a reason and every believer should study God's Word and apply that teaching to their lives.

Calling some things essential doesn't discount the other things as "unimportant". Calling some things essential doesn't give a license to ignore other teaching and instruction. But the fact remains that there are some essential truths that are part of our faith that if denied present a real problem for salvation.

The Bible has specific teaching that directly relates to the person-nature-attributes-character of God and of Jesus, specific teaching on the sinful nature of mankind, specific teaching on salvation and Christ's work on the cross, and specific teaching on what real and true Christianity is and is not, specific teaching on the Truth of the Gospel, specific teaching on what Love is and what it is not, and specific teaching on false teachers and false doctrine. The Gospel message is at the heart of all this teaching and the the core of our faith is the Love shown by the Gospel. God's Grace and Mercy and Love for us as a free gift through the blood of Christ gives us salvation...nothing of our own doing and we cannot be good enough to earn it.

All Christians should be in agreement, united and be unified in this...that was my sole point of my original post.

The Bible is also full of teaching that is useful, beneficial, important for fullness, growth, maturity, and deeper relationship with our Savior, with our spouses, with our children, with our family, and with our "neighbor". There is teaching on the church, on evangelism, on prayer, on parenting and so much more that there is not enough room to type it all. The Bible is God's story about all facets and aspects of life...His specific Word to us to learn and apply to our lives. When we apply it to our lives, it roots our faith deeply and enables and equips us to grow in spiritual maturity which leads to us being in deeper relationship with Christ and more effective for His Kingdom.. Yet we are saved by Grace, not by works. Is this important...ABSOLUTELY!

I hold that all Christians should be in agreement and be united on these things too, because they are so very clear in God's Word. But, we can look around in the various churches and at us as individuals and see that there is often a lack of agreement/unity in some of the Biblical teaching. Fallible man makes a mess often.

Spiritual growth is a process. When we accept and receive Christ our hearts are circumcised and we are a new creation. But we still have much to learn and much room to grow in our faith. The essentials are "met" (don't get hung up on how I worded that), but we add to the essentials with the rest of the Word and Truth on the journey to spiritual maturity (life long). Not adding things that are not in Scripture, but adding the fullness of Scripture to our own lives--wanted to be clear on that. There is, as I see it, much disagreement in Christianity today on Life Application of the Gospel and that is a sad state.

2 Peter 1: 3-11
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to[c] his own glory and excellence,[d] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,[e] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities[f] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers,[g] be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

There is a supplementation aspect that Peter reveals to us. This shows us that after salvation is received that there is a process to grow and mature according to what the Word says. Life Application of the Gospel, Life Application of the width-depth-and breadth of all the Scripture is what God intends for us. We should never stop at just the essentials. That is wrong and would indeed make some teaching "unimportant". We should add to faith per the Word throughout or lives in order to gain more Godly insight, wisdom and discernment...to become more effective for the Kingdom...to be a bright light in a dark world.

As Christians we all start our lives in Christ with the common and core essentials. We have unity here and it is my opinion that we as individual believers and as church denominations need to desire and strive to be unified. But that in no way says that is where we stop. That is putting words in my mouth that I never said. The whole of Scripture is God' revealed will and I agree with you 100% that we need unity there as well.

I understand what you are saying - it is the denominational idea which says "it doesn't matter which denomination you are a part of as long as certain universal ideas are believed and practiced. While you make a case that none of the teachings in the bible are "non-important", you are saying that things related to these nine principles are MOST important.. and as long as these are held one can believe/practice anything else in regards to the other things and not have his/her salvation affected.

Once again, you can't find this idea in the bible. What you are saying is rooted in the fact that "man can't seem to get on the same page". And .. since man can't get on the same page with one another, that means we are free to start classifying things into an "essential" category and a "non-essential" category.

I understand where folks come from on this idea - it's not easy to look and say "that's wrong" in our culture today. However, the "gospel" is far more than just the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. It consists of everything that is found in New Testament Scripture - all that Jesus taught and inspired others to write. It was offensive in the first century - and it's offensive to many today.

For those questioning this line of reasoning, there are several passages that I can recommend to you (pm if you'd like them)... but consider this fact. A small percentage (comparatively) the gospel accounts details the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The bulk of the gospels tell us of things He taught and practiced. Too many today want to rearrange this emphasis - give me mostly the cross/resurrection, but I'm free to hold my own opinion when it comes to matters such as conversion, worship, church leadership. etc.

This is the Gospel.
Galatians 3:8King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

You said
"and as long as these are held one can believe/practice anything else in regards to the other things and not have his/her salvation affected."

Tell me, what is your salvation based on , and what affects it?

When we look up the word "gospel" in the NT, it appears 96 times. Literally, the word means "good news"... and it is likely most frequently used in that sense in the NT. However, the "gospel" is also likened to "the cross of Christ" (1 Cor. 1:17), "the power of God to salvation" (Rom. 1:16), a "blessing to all nations" (Gal. 3:8), and "the word of truth" (Col. 1:5). This last usage, in my opinion, is the one which is most overlooked in the denominational world. Simply put, one does not have "the gospel" unless he/she has "the truth".

My salvation first and foremost comes as a result of God's grace... that's totally obvious from passages like Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 3:24. Man has never been able to save himself from sin. Thus, God has always been the first to act in this equation - and has established the various systems whereby people could be reconciled to Him during the course of time. Without God's grace, there's no hope whatsoever - we're doomed!

However, my salvation also comes from my obedience to His word. Notice some passages like 1 Peter 1:22, Peter 4:17, and Thessalonians 1:8 affirm this fact. My obedience includes belief (I.e. John 3:16), but notice it is not limited to simple belief. It includes obedience to Christ (John 3:36, Hebrews 5:9). It's at THIS place that I have issue with the original post in this thread - and with the general belief found in denominationalism.

Jesus taught on many issues as chronicled in the gospel accounts. Furthermore, everything that we found written in the remainder of the NT came directly from Him (John 16:7-15). Understanding this, I must then strive to live by all the things written in the entire New Testament. In this book, I find information on how to approach God, treat my fellow man, be saved initially, continue in salvation, etc. As a result, who am I to say "x is essential and y is not essential"? Yet, for the sake of an unbiblical unity, people have narrowed "the gospel" down to a few ideas which exclude the majority of the teachings of the NT. Realize what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-20 is vital - we do not have the authority to relax anything which is found in the NT.

Realize what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-20 is vital - we do not have the authority to relax anything which is found in the NT.

It certainly is but you have failed to understand it. Jesus fulfilled the law. He is the only man to ever have done so. It is by his fulfillment of the law that you are saved, not by your own. If you fail to understand that , then you are still living under the old covenant which has grown old and is ready to pass away. Under that old covenant, you will be judged by your acts and there is no person who can satisfy those requirements. If righteousness came by the law, than Christ has died in vain.

You must understand that you are saved by grace alone, not your obedience, or you have missed the entire New Testament. It is an understanding of grace and who you are because of it that will cause you to obey God's laws. It is not your obedience of laws that cause you to be saved.

Amen. As Paul said, all of our good works are as bloody rags because we can never earn salvation. We will never be good enough. That's why God's grace is an unmerited gift. None of us deserve His grace, yet He is willing to give it freely. Great discussion!

If salvation ALSO comes from obedience then it is not by grace. The good news of the gospel is that Jesus has kept the law for us so our right standing before God is dependent on what Jesus has done instead of what I do. The gospel is the opposite of your statement....instead the gospel says that my obedience comes from my salvation. As I receive God's grace and trust completely in what Jesus has done for me then I am able to extend His grace, forgiveness, compassion, etc. to others.

http://adam4d.com/done/

I tried to be through, honest I did.

The entire NT is essential for the Christian and I was never intending anything else to be conjured up. The 8 things I listed were I guess a failed attempt at showing there were certain Christian essential concepts that all Christians have in common. There may be more than this, but these 8 are the ones I listed.

The 8 things I listed are take it or leave it concepts. They are either 100% true or they are false. I say all 8 are true. Scripture tells us these 8 are true as well. And I maintain that anyone calling themselves a Christian and any church that considers themselves a Christian church will also say those 8 things are true. To be blunt, if one or more is claimed as false then that is false doctrine and a false Christ and a false Gospel.

I will agree with you that if someone says that obedience is optional in the Christian life, then there are some major issues with their faith and belief. Obedience isn't optional, it is natural because ti is the outflow of our circumcised and changed hearts that now has Christ. When we abide in Christ and he in us, we will have a life marked with obedience and with love. It will not be perfect, 100% obedience or perfect love however. It can't be because we are sinners saved by grace.

As believers, Yes we are a new creation. Yes we've been washed and given a new heart in Christ. Yes we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us to help us. Yes we have the Word to teach and instruct us. Yes we have direct communication to God through Christ, our mediator, in prayer and petition to guide us. We have many things as believers.

But we do not have perfection.....yet! When we come into a saving relationship with Christ we are then JUSTIFIED! We are redeemed by Christ's blood. But God ain't done with us there. He then begins the work of fixing us, molding us, shaping us, refining us, pruning us, perfecting our faith from the inside out through SANCTIFICATION...a life long journey. This journey continues until God Glorifies us in heaven.

There are other issues that are very important and also vital, such as obedience to Christ's teaching in he NT. I dare not argue anything contrary to that. However, obedience is a minute by minute (second by second for me some days) way of life. We make choices to obey or disobey every day...and we even sin when we really wanted to obey because of our sin nature. We are unable to obey perfectly. It is impossible no matter how hard we try. So while obedience is indeed a vital part of the Christian life, it doesn't condemn us to hell if we mess up if we are true believers with Christ in our hearts.

Now if we have issues with obedience and sometimes fail to obey...then what? Are we still saved? Are we still loved? Yes, we are on both accounts. Us sinning doesn't destroy the Gospel or make it false...if we answer no to 1-8 though it does mean just that.

I lied yesterday to keep from having a stressful conversation...putting it off until later. I wasn't honest. I also got really angry at someone and I sinned in my anger. I was mad all day yesterday and into this morning. I sinned. Does that disobedience take away my salvation? No!

God convicted me of it and I spent time this morning in prayer and made things right today: I had the conversation that was unpleasant and apologized for putting it off; I went to the person I was angry with and offer my apology for being unkind. God convicted me, straightened me out, pruned and refined me---he is working on me as a believer.

My sin didn't take away from the truths of 1-8. Me sinning doesn't mean I'm not a Christian or a believer. (Now if we are talking about a consistent sinful lifestyle without remorse, without repentance, without confession---then that is a completely different animal)

Bamarich has done a good thing and prompted me to think about what I wrote and how I wrote it. He's not understood what I meant because of my lack of ability to write it down in an understandable way, I think. I am pretty sure we are in agreement and unity on 99% of things and some of the disagreement may just be on how we are defining something which impacts how we articulate our views. I'm okay with adding 2 more essentials to the list, because in retrospective these are core to the faith.

We could add a # 9 to the list quite easily and I'd have no issues with it.

9. We are called to abide in Christ and to exhibit a life of obedience: Pure-Simple-Straight Forward. We are called and desired to these kind of things: Trusting Christ, Life application of the Scriptures daily, standing inside of God's will, keeping oneself unblemished from the world, not straying from our master, obedience of the Scriptures. God desires this and has sent us a helper in the Holy Spirit and in His Word. God will refine us, work on us, prune us--sanctifying us until the day he Glorifies us. For we have already been Justified through our faith, so now he prepares us for eternal life with Him. When we mess up, He will be found faithful to forgive us when we confess and repent and have forgiveness ourselves towards others.

And if we did that we would need to add a #10, and I'd be perfectly fine adding this as well.

10. We are not perfect, but Forgiven: God wants us and desires us to be without sin and to obey, but we are fallen and cannot achieve perfection. But we are still called to strive for that and do not have license to ignore God or sin anyway. We are called to seek after God and to trust and lean on Him..we are called to abide in Christ. Yet we still fail so often. God's Grace, Mercy and Love forgives us of our sins (commission and ommission) when we come clean and confess our sins, repent/turn from our sins, and have a heart of forgiveness towards others when we are sinned against. We can't earn salvation based on our works, how good we are, how well we obey because we cannot achieve perfection. God's Grace does the work of salvation. God is perfect and requires us to be perfect to be with Him, so since we can't be He sent His Son, Jesus, to be the perfection crucified for our sins so that we may abide in Him through Christ and He freely gives it through his Grace.

Bottom line is this: The Gospel message of Christ is the essential. When we love Christ we will obey. We are to abide in Christ as He will abide in us. Christ's command is for us to love as Christ loved us. God is Gracious and forgives us when we fall short.

I was about to type this very thing.

We are compelled to live in obedience because of the salvation we have through grace.

Very few of the people in this thread studied Anthropology. On a literature standpoint, read the story of Gilgamesh and countless others. Jesus Christ's story was not an original. I am a believer in a higher power, but when Christ's story copies so many it's hard to think he is All and Everything. As a smart man in Thomas Paine said in Common Sense, published Jan. 10th 1776, " My mind is my own church."

This is the major issue with people understanding "grace" in today's world. According to Genesis 6:8, Noah obtained "grace" in the eyes of God. Did that then mean he was saved without obedience? Could Noah have been saved without God acting first? No... God gave him a plan to follow... and he followed it. Did the fact Noah obeyed nullify his being saved by grace? Absolutely not!

In instituting the law of Moses, God provided information to the COI which would preserve their life - things relate to hygiene, diet, etc. God was of indebted to do so, thus that law came into being because God chose them - by His grace. Yet, the law did the COI no good unless they obeyed it.

Ephesians 2:8 claims that in the New Testament, people are saved by God's grace through faith. A faith pleasing to God, biblically speaking, is a trust in God which compels a person to comply with His requests - that's the illustration repeatedly emphasized in Hebrews 11.

For those of you who claim "obedience cancels out grace", then what you are really claiming is that everyone will be saved. Why? Because even belief in Christ is something a person does - in response to a passage like John 3:16. You cannot harmonize passages such as 1 Peter 1:22 or Ephesians 2:8 with the "grace only" idea.

Jesus' story would be a total copy if the book containing it were an ordinary book. The bible contains foreknowledge of humanity that only can be explained by supernatural inspiration. Prophecies from the Old Testament were fulfilled in detail hundreds of years after they were predicted. There are many other historical books which have some of the same kinds of stories in them, but none of them contain these two additional elements - proofs that this book isn't an ordinary book.

So dinosaurs??? It doesn't mention that. Or what about his relationship with Mary Magdalene? Oops those are in the books of the bible that Diciples so conventionally left out. Just saying....also, the foreknowledge of Christ can be absolutely compared to the "foreknowledge" of Nostradamus. Same predictions and They happened. Is there a religion praising Nostradamus? No, just people with 2000 + years less knowledge than we have now. Take advantage of it.

Um, yes it does.

Please don't hijack the thread.
Thanks.

Where other than the dragon/serpent in the desert in the book of Revelations does it mention one?

Sorry apparently free conversation is taking the authenticity of this thread away. Or people of "The Man" don't like hearing others opinions. Guess since I don't believe the same thing, I'm not invited.

Btw just for people reading I'm not trying to be an arse, when I was 7-16 years old I was forced to memorize the scripture or I wouldn't be able to eat dinner. Now that's fine and dandy, just good to express an opinion every once in a while. Also, I'm only 25 y/o but from how I was brought up, I'd wager I know the scripture better than 98% of the members here. It's almost a reflex.

Knowing and being able to quote scripture is far different than being able to discern and understand scripture and context.

Since the topic is "Unity in the Body of Christ: Christian Essentials" and by your comments you would not seem to consider yourself a member of the Body of Christ, then yeah, your comments aren't really pertinent to the thread.

Ah so this is a Christian only no outside opinions thread, typical.

Not at all. Start another thread and I would love to talk about any aspect of religion or Christianity you want to discuss.

I don't consider it to be that, but I do understand the desire to keep the posts relate to the thread title. If we as Christians are to try and live our lives as close to Christlike as possible then non believers are exactly the ones we should be talking with.

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." Think about that.

It is a Christian Essentials thread, not a topic started to debate the validity of the Christian Faith.

Start a thread on the latter and let folks debate it with you, if you truly have an open mind for debate, and not some preconceived notion or biases based on your upbringing.

Ok.

We don't know much about Noah but I think he was saved the same way Abraham was. The scripture says Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. Abraham's obedience "circumcision" was a seal of the faith he had in God."Rom.4"

Rom. 3:20 tells you that by your deeds no man is justified in the sight of God.

I never said "obedience cancels out grace" nor did I say that "Grace cancels out obedience" Obedience is the result of grace. What's so unfortunate is that many in the church world think Grace is the result of obedience. Actually it is but it's the result of Christ's obedience and not of ours.

Grace isn't a way to sin and get away with it. Anyone thinking like that just needs to get saved. Sin however does not cancel out the grace of God, indeed Paul says that where sin did abound, grace did much more abound.

When you understand God's grace and what it has done for you it takes your focus off yourself and puts it on God and his grace and goodness. Paul said how can we continue in sin when we are dead to sin. It's the knowledge of grace that teaches you that you are dead to sin and it's that knowledge that changes your behavior.

The story of Jesus is very much original. I know it is standard skeptic fare to throw out the "copy of other myths" line. That has become fairly commonplace since the "Zeitgeist" movie was released. However, if you look at all the myths that were supposedly copied to make up the story of Jesus you'll find that the similarities are few to none.

Understand completely about Matthew 5:17 ff... my point there was that EVERY word in the bible is important - not just some. Whether then or now, Jesus doesn't endorse relaxing anything found in God's word.

As you claim I must understand that I am saved by grace alone, you cannot harmonize this statement with 1 Peter 1:21 or even Ephesians 2:8. God chooses to save when man responds to His offer of grace. The demons understand this system of grace, but they fail to respond accordingly (James 2:19). Regarding your citation of Romans 4:3, you can find the exact opposite idea in James 2:21. In that same passage, we learn that Abraham wouldn't have been justified had he not obeyed the Lord. One of the cardinal rules about drawing any conclusions about a biblical topic is to examine everything the NT says about a subject... James' text supplements that of Paul's here.

I do have a question for you though... at what point is a person saved? Is there anything he/she must do in order to be saved initially?

I never alluded to the fact you mentioned the obedience idea... it was pointedly stated by others replying to my post. Regarding Noah, saying "we don't know much about Noah" avoids the question. The question is "would Noah have been saved from the flood just by belief in God's word... or by an acknowledge of God's offer of grace? The "faith" that is mentioned in Ephesians 2:8 is a trust which compels one to action - and it's seen clearly in the story of Moses - the story of a man who trusted enough in God's message to comply with God's demands.

To be saved a person must believe God. You must Believe that God sent his son to be your savior and accept that what Jesus did on the cross, saved you from your sins.

The scripture is very clear that Abraham didn't do anything to be righteous except believe God. Abraham's actions were simply a result of his belief. The entire book of Romans is dedicated to showing you that you are justified by faith without works.Also Galatians. take the entire book of James into consideration and he is not saying that a man is justified by works, he is saying that a justified man has works as a result of his faith.

I never said that a man didn't have to believe or have faith in grace for it to be active in his life, but you are not saved by grace plus anything you can do except believe. If you are saying you must believe, then I completely agree with you. If however you say you must do something else, I do not agree with you.

very well said... Amen and Amen

I understand what you are saying, but it is more than belief. Satan believes he just doesn't accept. We need faith, surrender and acceptance.

I'll agree with that Bill. Yes, being born again is a surrender. I am giving up my old life and exchanging it for a new life in Christ.

I just don't agree that any works or keeping of commandments are required for salvation. Now a saved person does work and keep commandments but not to acquire or keep salvation.the difference is that if Satan can get you to judge your salvation based on your performance then you will always be lacking.You will be self centered instead of Christ centered and only works of the flesh can come of self. A man wrapped up in Christ and centered on what Christ has done in him is connected to the vine and will only naturally produce fruit.

A Christian who is saved will bear good fruit. As Christs refines us and prunes us (as branches on the vine) we will bear more and better fruit. It is the natural flow out of our heart that abides with Christ. It requires effort too on our part.

Galatians 5:22-23 tells us about this fruit
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

These are character traits, attitudes, attributes and motivations of the heart type of things. It is not a list of duties, works or obligations. It tells what the new heart in Christ will look like.

In our love for others we should strive to love as Christ loved us..Jesus's new commandment for us...the Law of Christ. Christ died for us and was willing to take on the sin of the world for us so that we might have salvation. Our love for others should mirror that self-sacrificing kind of love.

In our joy we are to stay focused on Christ and his love for us looking forward to our Hope, not be yoked by the problems of the world. We will have problems in life for we live in a fallen world, but we are to turn them over to Christ at the foot of the cross.

In our peace we should seek to be peacemakers as far as it depends on us, not quarreling or stirring up strife. We should engage in equipping, encouraging, building up, and loving those around us.

In our patience we should learn to wait on the Lord and die to our desire of worldly instant gratification, accepting God's timing as the best timing.

In our kindness we should love each other deeply and help those in need and offer ourselves as living sacrifices to those around us by using our time, talents and resources in ways that helps and benefits others...all the while with a good disposition and love.

In our goodness we should subscribe to the just, righteous, pure, Holy and true things and flee from and avoid the ungodly and worldly things that are harmful to us because this promotes honor, virtue, integrity when we imitate Christ.

In our faithfulness we are to be true to our Lord, true to our spouses, true to our families, true to our word.

In our gentleness we will strive to be loving, fair, honest and compassionate--even when wronged--because anger, malice, revenge and dissension are not what God has intended for us.

In our self-control we have a duty and an obligation to put forth every effort to be self-governing through all humbleness of spirit in all situations, not letting Satan toss us like the wind, we are to stand firm and in control of our emotions, attitudes, and actions.


These fruit of the Spirit are heart centered and to have them in full measure it does take obedience on our part. Obedience to God is being open to let Him use us for His Purposes and Glory, not stiff-necked and hard hearted as well as following any specific commands or teaching. But that obedience has its root in our faith, love and changed heart for we will desire to obey and desire to bear fruit.

I completely agree with the spirit of what you are saying. The revelation I have received just in the last couple years however is that the only labor involved on my part is that I labor to enter into His rest. My labor to achieve all the things you are saying is to rest in his finished work in me.

It is my focus on my new life in Christ that produces fruit. If I labor to produce fruit I have taken my focus off Jesus and placed it on myself and without complete connection to the vine, the branch will bear no fruit.

Satan will try to get my focus off Christ and onto myself and what I can do to produce Godly fruit in my life. If I fall into this trap, I will produce no fruit. My labor is to develop a complete trust and reliance on Christ in every area of my life. I must develop a knowledge that Christ is always in me, always with me, always there to advise and correct. It is this complete rest in his finished work that produces fruit. I am not becoming perfected. In Christ I am perfected. All I need to perfect is my knowledge and trust that Christ has already completed me.

Heb.10:14 "For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

What on earth does the life of Christ have to do with the epic of gilgamesh? Did Jesus slay any gods? Did Jesus build a giant boat to escape a massive flood? Go actually read Gilgamesh then make a comment about it either.
And from your statment on buddhism its obvious you don't know much about it.

I can agree with that in spirit too . I maintain that we are to be active and diligent but not in order to gain work credits, but because we are indeed focused on Christ and are resting in Him. As we seek, strive, are diligent, witness, minister, etc...it is in-of-through Christ, not of ourselves. The Holy Spirit in us will develop our fruit and we need only to be willing to serve and go where God prompts us to go and do what God prompts us to do.

Thanks for answering. The book of Romans does not, as some allege, show that faith alone without action pleases God. Rather, it explains that works of the law of Moses is not able to save a person in the Christian age. That is why you have the appearance of a contradiction between Romans 4:3 and James 2:21. Prior to and following Romans 4:3, it is clear Paul is referencing works of the law of Moses. To pull the word "works" out of the context and claim that it refers to any action whatsoever is to twist the original meaning.

Notice James 1:22-23 closely. The "faith" of Abraham was incomplete without action... and the Scripture was not fulfilled (to make complete) until he acted. To summarize, we learn that faith without works is lacking something... and that the account of Genesis 15:6 was not fully true until Abraham added action to his belief. THIS is the difference between the "faith" of demons (2:20) and Abraham - the "faith" of demons doesn't compel them to obey God.

There's a reason why Luther didn't believe the book of James was inspired - he realized what it does to the doctrine of justification by faith (belief) alone. You still haven't given a response to my questions above.

One, would Noah (a recipient of God's grace) have been saved from the flood without obeying God's requisites to avoiding the flood? Two, why do passages such as 1 Peter 1:22 and 1 Thessalonians 1:8 indicate that obedience is necessary in order to receive purification/salvation? I will also add a third - why do passages like Philippians 2:12 (work out your own salvation with fear and trembling) and Acts 2:40 (save yourselves from this crooked generation) clearly state human action is required in the salvation process if belief alone saves a person?