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I'm clearing some timber on about 40 acres of my land. They should be finished next week. When is the time to go back and spray, burn, and plant?

Dr. B

Also, are you aware of any government subsidized programs that could assist with the costs of replanting?

Hey, Thanks, never had a real invite before



If they are finished by next week, you should be able to spray this fall, burn a month or so after and plant this winter. Plenty of time.

There are a couple gov't programs to assist in planting longleaf pine - contact the NRCS - if in Montgomery Co:
April Jones
NRCS
District Conservationist
(334) 223-7257
There is also a state program and you can contact
Tracy George
Dept of Cons
334-353-0503

Most of these will cost share up to 75% of the establishment costs. There is only one program for loblolly (that I know of) and it is a "low density" planting administered through NRCS. If I am planting loblolly, I would rather plant it heavier than they will allow. If I want low density, I go with longleaf.

This is an excellent resource:
http://www.forestry.state.al.us/CostSharePrograms.aspx?bv=2&s=2

Yeah, what he said.

Hey Gobbler-

Do you know someone I could get to haul rock to our tract in Equality for a reasonable price?

We've used Froggy Bottom a few times and they were pretty reasonable and pretty local!

Did a little burning yesterday. Hope to have some pics. up soon. Our turkeys are going to be happy!

>>>We can answer any of your questions here.<<<

Great! Please give me a herbicide program for growing chufa in fields that have been in almost constant cultivation since 1821.

Be careful with that burning; I just found a dead tree across the road and it was still on fire from a prescribed burn 10 days ago.

Need a little more info. You having a grass or broadleaf problem? You wanting to spray pre-emergent or post?

Not growing well? Poor soil? Details man, details

not very difficult, you're cultivating one of the world's worst weeds.

a couple preemergence options: trifluralin or pendimethalin + atrazine *just not metolachlor*

postemergence mainstays: sethoxydim or clethodim for grassy weeds, 2,4-D, dicamba, carfentrazone for broadleaves

you can cure pretty much whatever ails your chufa with what I've listed...obviously aside from pH, nutrient and soil moisture issues....or pigs.

>>>Need a little more info. You having a grass or broadleaf problem? You wanting to spray pre-emergent or post?<<<

You gotta spray pre and post if you want to make anything in these fields; 190 years of cultivation means there is a seed bank that includes every weed in central AL. I find something that controls one, and a new one takes over. And we've been growing chufa in these fields since the late 60s; try to rotate the fields, but I don't have enough good chufa land for rotation to be a real solution.

Turfgrass, those are good recommendations, and I've tried every herbicide you've listed except atrazine. My experience is that regular 2,4-D will kill the chufas dead, even at a low dosage. 2,4-DB is safe for the chufa, but it does a very poor job of controlling sicklepod, which is my worst weed of all.

I've gotten poor results from both Treflan and Prowl, and Aim will control carpetweed only by repeat applications. The best overall control I've gotten was with Command. I've used it as the pre for the last 2 years and made a bumper crop in 09. I had almost a total failure last year due to the drought, but I didn't help them any by mixing Cotoran with the Command to try to control the sicklepod. The chufas were damaged pretty bad by the Cotoran, though I still would have made a good crop if it had rained.

Atrazine would probably do a good job with the sicklepod, but it is listed as controlling yellow nutsedge too, which means it will kill chufa. Have you ever used it on chufa? I had a chemical co rep to tell me to try Atrazine, but he admitted he had never actually done it himself. I'd be very interested in hearing about the results if anyone has used it. I'd also be very interested in hearing about anyone who successfully used 2,4-D without damage to the chufas.

Unless somebody can give me a better plan, I'm gonna use Command again as the pre and follow up with repeat applications of 2,4-DB post. I may add Prowl to the Command to try to control the carpetweed. This combo will not produce a weed-free field, but it will make a crop better than anything else I've tried.

Many thanks for any help.

Yeah, that pretty much covers it. The only other thing I would try would be a wick boom applicator and round-up if your weed species are taller than your chufas. You are in a pretty togh spot but turfgrass mentioned the best chemical apps. you have readily available.

PCP - try about 0.5 oz/A of Escort. It should give you good control of most of your broadleaf weeds, particularly if you add it to the 2,4-DB. I know it does not have much, if any, nutsedge activity, so should be okay on your chufa. Test a small patch first. Weed control information in the food plot arena is sorely lacking. I have been trying to drum up some research monies to do some of this type work but it just isn't there.

Thanks for the ideas. I don't have a wick boom applicator, but I do have a bush hog and have resorted to using it to give the sicklepod a haircut on occasion. Not ideal, but once it gets taller than the chufa you gotta try something. I've also tried spraying the sicklepod with gly using a hand sprayer on isolated patches. That kills it, but it usually drips down onto the chufa and kills them too.

007, I'll give the Escort a try. And I wish you the best on getting those research dollars. Why don't you just develop a RR chufa and get rich? I'll finance the project, as long as it doesn't cost over $500 or so.

Interestingly, nutsedge isn't really controlled by glyphosate very well. It usually just will yellow it up but it comes back strong. You might even be able to spray 5-7 fl. oz/A over the top and hurt the weeds but not so much the chufa. Just an idea, I wouldn't try it on too big of a spot until I saw how they reacted. I have also seen research that showed low rates will stimulate growth on some plant species. Again, be careful if you try it.

I have some yellow nutsedge in my chufas, but my greatest battle is with carpet weed. That stuff is hard to control. I've been using Clethodim for grasses and 2,4DB for broadleafs. That combo gets everything but the carpet weed. It insults it, but that's about all!

ronfromramer- yellow nutsedge = chufa

pcp- 007 mentioned a great option for you also with metsulfuron...good stuff. Here's a combo I use quite often:
.5 oz metsulfuron + half pint dicamba + 1 oz carfentrazone + NIS = if you have any broadleaf weed escapes, you better start praying.

Also, if nutsedge could be controlled with 2,4-D amine or atrazine...it wouldn't be one of the world's worst weeds. I wish I could control it with 2,4-D or atrazine for $2.50/A. I've never seen any nutsedge control out of either.

There are plenty of broadleaf brews you can concoct with atrazine, 2,4-D, dicamba, carfentrazone or metsulfuron that will do what you're looking for.

good luck
p.s.- fwiw, my perspective is one of trying to kill nutsedge 6-8 mths out of every year...not grow it.

Thanks for the additional ideas, guys. 007, I've read that yellow nutsedge is somewhat resistant to gly, but I think you would have to get the dose just right. At a quart to the acre, it kills the chufas dead, or at least that has been my experience with it. I've got one field where I've had chufa so long that too many volunteers come up each year. This year, I plan to let it come up and then kill it with gly and start over with new seed. The problem with me experimenting with it is that I live too far from the farm. I usually get one chance to hit it with something post before the weeds are out of control.

Turfgrass, that sounds like a broadleaf combo that would work well, and I don't think it would hurt the chufas at those amounts. But I don't understand this:

>>>Also, if nutsedge could be controlled with 2,4-D amine or atrazine...it wouldn't be one of the world's worst weeds. I wish I could control it with 2,4-D or atrazine for $2.50/A. I've never seen any nutsedge control out of either.<<<

Several years ago, I had a small field that was just taken over by sicklepod. It laughed at the 2,4-DB, and it was obvious I wasn't gonna make anything. In desperation, I hit it with a quart of Weedmaster, a mix of 2,4-D and dicamba. It killed the sicklepod, but it also fried the chufas to a crisp. I'm not talking about damage, I'm talking dead, dead, dead.

Years ago my dad used 2,4-D on a big field and killed every chufa in it. After all the work we had done, it made me want to avoid herbicides completely and I tried for several years to grow them without herbicides. I had pretty good luck for a couple of years by planting in rows and plowing them 3 times, but eventually the sicklepod and crabgrass got so bad I had to go back to herbicides.

I know that some folks say yellow nutsedge and chufa are the same plant, but I wonder about that. I know a timber wolf and a poodle are the same species, but they sure look different to me, and chufas sure look different from what I've always called nutgrass. Could it be that chufa is actually much less tolerant of certain herbicides than its wild brethren? I don't know anything else to explain our different experience.

Even 2,4-DB and Aim will kill chufa if you get too much. I know 007 saw this pic a couple of years ago, but I'll post it again for anyone who wasn't around here then. We got a lot of rain that year, and these plants made a partial recovery, but don't ever doubt that I can kill chufas with broadleaf herbicides.

That's why I keep looking for your posts!

I agree, Chufa may be yellow nutsedge but I have seen them killed over and over in planted fields with chemical prescriptions that wouldn't touch it in a lawn. Kinda like loblolly pine. It is one of the worst weeds we have in longleaf plantations and burning them starting in year 2 only kills a portion of them. However if we had payed to plant them, carrying a lighter near them would kill every one. All depends on whether you want them or not

>>>All depends on whether you want them or not<<<

I knew that all along! Good to see a professional confirm it.

I also think that who applies it makes a difference too. I need to swap jobs with turfgrass for a week or 2 this summer. I could take a jug of 2,4-D and kill all the nutsedge he has, and then he could take a jug of it and kill all my sicklepod without hurting the chufas a bit. But how are your preaching skills, turfgrass? You gotta handle that part too if we swap.

Tell the congregation I'll do the whole book of James and have 'em home in time for the race.

This has really sparked my curiosity though. I rarely deal with nutsedge taller than 3-4"...could it be there is a broadcast application height limit, much like row crops?? Chances are that's the issue, bigger the plant...the more leaf surface area to be exposed to herbicide, not to mention in most cases after the summer solstice nutsedge has started feeding the tuber...that could be a big contributing factor.

Looks like I found a good summer experiment...

I planted some loblolly pines 2yrs ago and had a decent success. But some of the trees would just start turning brown and die. Could it take up to a yr for them to die from being j rooted?

>>>I rarely deal with nutsedge taller than 3-4"...could it be there is a broadcast application height limit, much like row crops??<<<

Maybe you are on to something there. Most of the chufas that I have killed or damaged have been pretty big, like the ones in the pic above. Please do lots of experiments this summer and keep us informed.

>>>Tell the congregation I'll do the whole book of James and have 'em home in time for the race. <<<

LOL - Sounds great! What have I gotta do in your job besides kill nutgrass?

Any of you guys ever heard of Lee Atkins? He wrote an article in Turkey Country's last issue and mentioned growing chufas and gave a post herbicide program. He said to use a quart of 2,4-D with 3 pints of Prowl and 1.5 pints of Select. He included an email address in the article, so I wrote him and asked if he meant to say 2,4-DB, but he never responded. He did specify to apply it with the chufas 4" high. I dunno if he actually grows chufas or is just speaking theoretically. Maybe its some kind of bad luck that I kill them with 2,4-D, but I have never seen it recommended in a publication before reading this article. The NWTF used to include herbicide recommendations with their seed, and it was always 2,4-DB.

Turkey Country had another chufa article in the same issue and mentioned chufa research recently done in SC. I'd sure like to read that, if anyone knows how to get it. Sounded like they at least knew something about growing them; recommended waiting until July to plant to have less weed competition, and also said to rotate fields every 2 years for the same reason. Both of those suggestions are excellent advice, but many of us don't have enough good land to do the rotation, and planting in July would have meant total failure 4 of the last 5 years due to no rain at the critical time.

That article also said to put out 40-50 lbs of N at planting, and then top dress with 300 lbs of ammonium nitrate! That is one heck of a lot of N, and you better have an unlimited supply of $ to follow that recommendation. I top dress with 100 lbs, but won't do that unless it looks like I have a good chance at getting the rain to utilize it. I guess the next thing is gonna be people putting in irrigation systems for chufas. Don't think I can handle that. A good evening to all.

On The wick boom I saw a pretty good design that you can make. Saw one for a 4wheeler or to mount of the loader of a tractor which would work the best so you could change the height easily. They were mainly using it to kill sage grass. It was make out of 4in pvc pipe and had a elbow at the end and extended up 6 to 8 in or so witha clean out cap on to so you could fill the pipe with round up. The had cotton rope about 1in in dia that were probably 1 1/2ft long that came out of the botton of the pipe starting at the end and would connect back in and another would come out and so on. I would say the shorter the rope the better it would wick the round up. I think the attached the rope with a nipple fitting and ran the rope through some kinda nut with a o ring in it to keep it from leaking around the rope. hard to try to explain.

on the spray I will ask our chem rep about it.

That is a possibility there could have been multiple other factors that could have caused mortality. How many acres did you plant and what type of site prep. did you do?

Is the site prone to standing water; or just the opposite, very rocky?

Best way to determine if they were J rooted is to dig up the brown and dead ones and see. It is likely to be another cause. Any noticeable insects on the trees?

A few acres probably around 400 trees.Just had an open pasture and planted them with a dibble. No standing water but it is rocky in some places. The place has a crown on it and slopes down a little on 3 sides. This is in southern Tallapoosa county near Macon county line. I did notice they didn't grow much on top of the hill.

Sounds like drought got them. Could have been j-rooted or L-rooted but probably not. You would be surprised what a few feet in elevation on a slope can do to soil moisture.

Not to mention a hard pan and pasture grass. We herbicide and subsoil at Minimum before planting pines in a pasture.

OK, fur us idjits ... what's a J-root and L-root?

When the root is shoved into too small of a hole and turns up or sideways?

roots are supposed to point straight down. Roots pointing back up are J-rooted, those pointing sideways are L-rooted. Does not necessarily kill them but might and does lead to poor growth and form.

Wow...intelligent, civil discussion. It looks like this is the secret room of sanity on this site. Every time I get back on here and read some threads after a 2-week hiatus, I am quickly reminded why I hadn't logged on in 2 weeks.

Yep, 49er's not in here ...

And Clem hasn't started anything yet!

And won't!

Well, maybe. Did I ever tell you about the Constitution, Bible and wildlife management? It all began years ago when ...

Yea, don't tell anyone else

Hopefully it will continue to be informative.

How's things going Doc.?

Going real well. Just got back from a tuna fishing trip...and now I feel really old and sore.

How was the Tuna trip? Wish I coulda made it but too short a notice!!

Tuna now and pike when?

It went real well. We got 2 tuna, 5 AJ, and a 70-pound wahoo.

Pike in June. Now that I have enetered my 40s, I need to take advantage of some of the opportunities to enjoy the outdoors that have deprived myself of.

What kind of programs are out there these days to encourage landowners to plant longleaf? At one time I was hearing about a program that made payments for so many years. Lately I have heard only about cost share programs. What all is out there?

I am talking about a small tract. Greater than 10 acres but less than 20 of open land. It was under cultivation years ago but for at least 10 years has been only mowed once or twice a year.

I mainly just want to watch them grow and end up with some nice longleaf habitat long term. Timber production as a seconday consideration.

Lots of programs out there
http://www.forestry.state.al.us/CostSharePrograms.aspx?bv=2&s=2
The annual payment program you are referencing is CRP and is still in effect for cultivated fields. They are spending a TON of your $$ on longleaf restoration (as well as other give-away programs). However, if they are giving it away, we try to get our folks to get some

jlcoffee, I can hook you up. Send me an e-mail at mbrock@nwtf.net

What are some good native shrubs to plant for quail covey headquarters?

This winter I planted two rows of Chickasaw Plums and Crabapple trees,about 2,000 lineal feet, around a pasture to provide overhead cover and feeding area. This is bordered by a 60' wide strip of native grasses that gets 1/3 disced every year.

I use plums, wax myrtle and lespedeza but they won't do any good without abundant broomstraw habitat!

Just MHO, but if you disk 1/3 of a native grass patch each year, you will turn it into a weed patch with no grass.

Sorry, I was unclear. It is not native grass I planted just the natural stuff that comes up in vacant land, broomsedge,etc. I hope to convert it into the real stuff at some point but the real estate bidness has got to get a little better first.

Back to the chufa discussion earlier on this thread - I found this on the NWTF site:

http://www.nwtf.org/online_chats/online_chat_7-1-10.html

>>>Q: In Washington, we need more solid evidence to prove to the government that chufa nutsedge is different than yellow nutsedge. They are different subspecies, but they get lumped into the same category out here. With the info I have above, I'd like to know the scientific name or variety of chufa. In Washington and other states Cyperus esculentus eptostachyus is an introduced yellow nutsedge and in the South Cyperus esculentus macrostachyus is a native variety. Is chufa a cultivated genotype of the native or the non-native? I want to plant chufa for wild turkeys but I hit roadblocks with agencies that consider chufa a noxious weed.
� Eric Braaten, Electric City, Wash.
A: There are a number of references in scientific literature and on the Internet to yellow nutsedge and its relationship to chufa. Both are the same species but they are very different variants. Generally, most authorities agree that the weedy, invasive type (yellow nutsedge) is Cyperus esculentus var. esculentus, and the cultivated, non-invasive variety (chufa) is Cyperus esculentus var. sativus.

Research by Dr. Andrew Dyer at the University of South Carolina (Aiken branch) has shown that the two variants are quite different in physiology and reproductive capability. Nutsedge produces a widespread network of tubers and roots and chufa produces a compact ball of tubers directly under the center of the leaves. Nutsedge flowers early in the summer, and chufa, if it flowers at all, does so in late summer or early fall. This means the likelihood of hybridization is near zero.

Dyer has suggested that the two variants are so different that they may deserve distinct species status. Nutsedge is also invasive, spreading quickly if introduced. Chufa will not spread from a planting site, and in fact, since it does not compete well with other vegetation, will quickly die out if not maintained.<<<

Maybe this is the reason that I'm killing chufas with herbicides that have no effect on yellow nutsedge.

I also found this on another page:

http://www.nwtf.org/online_chats/online_chat_7-9-09.html

>>>Q: I've planted my chufa and it appears to be coming up well, but a lot of grass and some broadleaf weeds are coming up with the chufa. Should I be worried about this and what can I do about it?
A: You definitely don't want weed competition in your chufa plot if you can help it. For grass competition, use 1.5 to 2 pints of Poast herbicide per acre (see the herbicide label for non-cropland use) along with one quart per 100 gallons of solution of crop oil concentrate as a surfactant. Surfactants are wetting agents that lower the surface tension of a liquid to allow easier spreading and lower the interfacial tension between two liquids. If you also have broadleaf weeds such as coffee weed and pigweed, use 1.5 pints per acre of 2,4-DB (also called Butyrac 175), but do not use 2,4-D because it may kill the chufa. You may use this mixture alone or in a tank mixed with the Poast. In either case, use the same rate of crop oil concentrate as recommended for the Poast mixture.<<<

Notice that he specified NOT to use 2,4-D because it can kill the chufa, which is exactly what I've experienced. And yet a recent article in the NWTF magazine recommended a quart of 2,4-D per acre. Sure wish 007 could get a big grant to figure all this out.

Thank you, sirs.

How many ounces of Post per gallon of water and also how many gallons of wayer per acre ?

This is for Clover fields ...sorry about that .

If my memory is correct we sprayed ~12 oz. to the acre at a rate of ~25 gal of water to the acre.

Blessed,
You will need to check your sprayer to see how much mix you are applying on an acre. If you need some help with this let me know.

If I assume 15 gal/A, which is a common rate for ag practices, then at 2 pints/acre (946.25ml/A), you would need to put this into 15 gallons, or, 63 ml/gal. That equates to approximately 2 ounces/gal.

The beauty of "broomsedge, etc" that comes up in vacant land, is it is free and forms the base of good quail habitat. You can buy it for $50+ per pound and plant it but you can promote it for free!

We own 200 acres that is split by a dirt road easement. One half has a large drainage running the length of it with various fingers and smaller drainages running into it. This half also has a large plateau on the north side of the drainage. The other half is mostly a flat plateau except for two large bottoms. The plateaus and some fingers (approximately half of our acreage) were clear cut 20-25 years ago. The clear cuts regenerated in mostly pine and scattered smaller hardwoods. The drainages and bottoms contain mostly large mature hard mast producing trees. After owning it for 20 years we are thinking about cutting the plateaus and maybe a few fingers and replanting in pines to possibly create some revenue in the future. All the land that we are thinking of planting is high ground and should be dry enough to log in the winter. All the land around us is planted in pines and has no hard mast producing trees. So our drainage and bottoms attract a lot of game through out the year. We also have 5 food plots and also plant a power line that cuts through our property. After cutting I plan on adding one or two food plots and roads/fire breaks to completely surround the plateaus so we can burn in the future if we want to.

Does anybody have any suggestions or critiques on my plans?

Are there any programs that would help pay to replant?

Should any thing be done to the bottoms to help increase wildlife value? (possibly going in and select cutting low wildlife value trees)

Never having seen it nor knowing where you are, hard to critique. Plan sounds good without knowing details. There are tree planting cost-share programs for shortleaf pine (north AL) and longleaf (south/east AL) as well as a "low density" loblolly program that assist with paying for replanting. If it is loggable in winter, you should be able to get fair prices for it. PM me if you want my number - it is what we do.

I've just purchased 36 acres last September in Marengo county Alabama. It has ~25 acres of 10 year old pines, and ~10 acres of 40 year old pines, and hardwoods. I have a camp on the other acre. My question is who would I contact for a timber management program? Thanks for your comments.

Eric,

Just now seeing this. I can write you a management plan. PM me.

Thanks.

go spread lime and6-12-12. you will have so much new growth the deer can eat that is very good for theem

I cover that area as well. Are you at 69 and Bashi Rd by any chance?

Anyone on here got a recomendation on a competent forester working in the area of Dale County(Ozark).I have 320 acres of planted pines and mixed natural regeneration and need some professional input on a bad burn/beetle problem on a portion of it.

Brad, check your PM.

I have recently contacted NRCS about 22 acres of Hardwood bottom land in Tallapoosa County less that 1/10th mi from Lake Martin. I am asking for assistance in 2-3 acre pond in a bottom with 3 springs and an overflowing old well. I am mainly asking for layout and recommendations for sizing. The property is pretty much all hardwood, mainly white oak, red oak, hickory,beech,dogwood, etc. with some scrub from a select cutting 12 yrs ago. I am considering shredding scrubs and cutting gum's out or would the cover with scrub be better? The scrub cutting would allow for planting of various fruit trees or maybe bur oak. Will the NRCS make good recommendations for wildlife habitat for deer and turkey? (they love it the way it is) my property adjoins trust land several hundred acres. This is my home and i want to improve asthetics and improve the nutritional year around. I am considering crab apples, muscadines, So, the lady said she would have wildlife biologist accompany her for soil samples for pond site and assign engineer. Can I get them to help with actual construction? I read somewhere that if I supported endangered fish species that they would assist in construction. I would prefer mainly pan fish, any recommendations or ideas would be appreciated.

Any experience with newer strain of chestnut and its disease resistance?

I am interested in finding out more about having a management plan written for our hunting land/farm. However, I don't know who to ask.
What does such a plan entail?
How much does it cost?
Is it an ongoing program or a one time assessment with specific recommendations?

The Alabama Forestry Commission and other governmental agencies will write you one for free. Forestry plans are usually written in time frame formats(ie. 5, 10, or 15 year, for instance). As management objectives change, so needs your plan to change.

Sometimes you get what you pay for. Some counties have excellent foresters but I have met some who are taking advantage of their state jobs. If you can find one who is willing to go out and walk the property and genuinely cares that would be great. Some would probably write you a plan without ever seeing the place.

That is true.

Could use some help finding a forester in Hackelburg Al to help with 40 ac. Would first like to know what price pulp is bringing in that area. If anyone may could help thanks.

Ok guys.. They just got thru cutting our place in Monroe county. 87 acres total we probably cut 50 of it. I'm taking a dozier up this weekend to push out a fire lane and some new plots. We was told to let it lay till next summer then spray and burn it. Then around December replant loblolly . Does this sound good? Any info is appreciated . Also any info on how to make a farm and write some of this on our taxes. I've never done this before

You need to let the hardwood stumps sprout and then spray around September. Then plant 2 or 3 gen loblolly.

Yes definitely wait till next year to spray and burn for best results. I didnt wait a full year where I had a good hot fire its clean but where I didnt there's a good bit of trash growing.

A consultant (salesman) is telling me that I should put apply 3.75 gallons per acre of a liquid 11 0 1 fertilizer instead of 300 pounds per acre of a granular 13 13 13. My calculations say that this would equate to around 5 pounds of nitrogen per acre of the liquid vs 39 pounds of the granular, not to mention the huge difference in the P and K. Am I missing something.

Title of this blog is "Wildlife and Forestry management questions answered here". I guess it doesn't say when.

Can't answer that without knowing your soil test results

I think your math is correct. 3.75 gallons/acre of anything is not much. Heck my sprayer has a 3.8 GPM pump on it, so I'd be done with an acre in one minute! I suppose you could dilute, but still. Granular is obviously water soluble when it rains, its just a more potent way of applying fertilizer.

No idea what kind of liquid fert he is telling you to use but I can tell you the difference in growth and duration in turf products in reference to liquid vs. granular fertilizer. I wouldnt waist my time or money on liquid fert. Short term effects for your plants and keeps them on a roller coaster ride

Just had about 40 acres of mixed pines and hardwoods clearcut.
Plan is to spray chemicals next year, then burn and handplant pines. Not sure at this point whether loblolly or longleafs.
Question - is mechanical site prep such as rootraking, windrowing, etc. a worthwhile economic investment.

Probably not. It is expensive shearing and piling and you will still have a lot of sprouting that you need to kill with herbicides. Erosion is also a concern with winrowing. I would herbicide, burn and hand plant. If you are after timber 3rd generation loblolly would be my only choice. Where are you located?

South Montgomery County

If the understory was clean, you could plant his winter and do a release this Spring or late Summer. I would, also, recommend loblolly over longleaf.

It's worth it to wait, let the cut hardwoods sprout and then burn and plant next winter.

Does moss really only grow on the north side of a tree?

In Goshen it grows all over the tree.

Can any of you timber guru's give me a rough idea of the financial difference in planting the 2/3rd Gen Loblolly as opposed to Long Leaf.I have 25 acres clear cut late last summer and and am still undecided. I am really more interested in providing the best deer/turkey habitat I can but at some point the future returns need to get figured in. Heck, I am 57 so all I got is a first and maybe second thinning anyway.

Cost difference in planting 2nd gen or 3rd gen loblolly is pretty small so I would go with 3rd gen hands down. Loblolly vs Longleaf all depends on your soil type. Most soils, loblolly is going to grow faster. Good deep sandy soils can sometimes grow longleaf close to the rate of loblolly, but it is rare that you have longleaf that can keep up.

Need to know what are the best practices for improving wild turkey habitat on my land. It isn't much to work with, only 68acres. We usually have a one or two gobblers there during spring, and several hens that look to nest on it.

During summer July/August, all we get trail cam pics of are single hens, that have usually grouped up to 8-10 birds that I guess had nest or brood failures in the area.

We have owned this property for 8 years, and have never seen a poult on it. I I have found one nest, but on accident. I do not go through looking for them on purpose, because i know they are there.

It is along the Southern Tennessee border in Giles county, which is the area that has seemed to experience a real population decline the past decade.

We used to have brood cows on it, fed them grain, and of course it helped to see turkeys, but did not help like we wanted it to, plus nesting was still a failure. Two years ago, we hooked up with NRCS, and got some trees planted. Looks like all of them have died, and I really do not want to go through that again. I was optimistic that tree planting in red/white oak, pecan, sawtooth, overcup, and shortleaf pine would increase our nesting habitat once they got tall enough to provide arial cover, and with the grasses that grow up in between and under them.

We plant all the foodplots we can, with red, white, and crimson clovers, along with wheat, rye, oats anfld other stuff to help cover the soil during winter. Clovers normally do good every spring, attracting hens and gobblers.

We have been "strip discing" the edge off foodplots and roads, which it looks to be very beneficial for the turkeys to dust and to forage for grubs and insects.

To wrap up, what do yall think my best bet would be to get better nesting success?

I kill all predators and armidillos whenever possible by the way, and trapping just isn't a feasible option for me now, for I do not have enough time.

Thanks for yall's input.

Also, it is about 40 acres of woods and 25 some odd acres of pasture, or what used to be where we seedlings.
About 1/4 of the woods is a cedar thicket with red and chinkapin oak mixed in. Another 1/4 or so of the woods is pure garbage hackberry, my worst favorite tree on the planet, while the remaining is pretty mature hardwoods with mainly hickory and red maple, but a few red, white, and chinkapin oak, and a few other common hardwood trees like popular and walnut.

Thanks again.

I have read, researched, and tried several things. All I want to do is help out the wild turkeys up here.

Go up to the turkey forum and you will get some good responses. Poorcountrypreacher seems to make a life work of dealing with turkeys and has some good ideas.

Are you still using your pastures or can you let them go fallow?

Now it's tall sage grass mainly, with the dead two year old seedlings. We have a small pasture about an acre in size that we planted sastooth seedlings in. The are the only seedlings that are still alive.

We thought about going back to cows. We have to make some type of revenue off of it, whether it's like 8 brood cows, or timber for my kids and grandkids. Thought timber would be the best, but, the seedlings didnt survive.

10-4

Disc strips & burn

Can anyone recommend someone to cruise timber in N. Alabama ?

with a massive home range, I would suggest roosting and nesting cover.

chufa

G/H
I have longleaf, slash and loblolly that are now 4 years old. I have lost some each year that begin turning brown in the early spring and die. Last year I had local State Forester come out and they couldnt really make a determination why the trees where randomly dieing. This year I had a representative from the Longleaf Alliance looking at a site for future longleaf planting and I had him look at the trees that where dying this year. He quickly decided it was annosus root rot. The location that the trees are dying is in old cutover sites. The root rot spreads from old stumps. In old fields right next to the dying trees I have not lost any. He emailed me some articles about it and they suggest cutting down the dead trees and putting borax on each of the cut stumps. I have done that and hope to stop the spread of the root rot. I also burned the dead trees because it spreads from spores in the air. You can look right at the ground level of the dying trees and if it is root rot you will have a canker or white looking fungus growing around the base of the tree. It might not be present on all the trees but on mine it was on most. I probably cut out 100-150 trees over a 10 acre area. Unfortunately it is found in sandy well drained soils and that is what I have in this location. Google annosus root rot and you can find pictures and more information. Also if any of you are planting longleaf or have longleaf I highly recommend contacting the longleaf alliance folks. They have been very helpful to me and will assist you with any questions you have.

Looking at a tract off the river. All old growth bottomland.
It will flood when the river gets out its banks.

Kicking an idea around.. Sounds almost criminal to me to even contemplate.. But..

Assuming its dry enough to get in there, would clearcutting a property like that allow one to potentially break even on a $2000/ac purchase price (or real close)?

Depends on the timber and how wet it gets. By the time your place drys out, the hardwood demand will probably be down.

Hardwood prices are dependent on timber quality and market demand. Many less desirable species get lumped into the hardwood label. Old growth hardwood is often hollow. Impossible to give a price without putting feet on the ground.

Hardwood logs still have a good price, like they say, it depends. Access, logging conditions, how many acres, available markets as well as the hardwood log quality and type make a lot of difference. It is possible that there is that there is $2,000 per acre in timber, but it would have to be good timber. Get a contract and get a good timber cruise.

What is the best year round forage crops and native vegetation well suited for acidic soils ?

Best all around plant is honeysuckle to me.

Buying land with timber !

Starting the process of searching for land with a good amount of older aged plantations that are ready for first thinning or close to it. I have a few questions

Is it better to buy the tract from a company that have certified forester's on staff or is it in your best interest to interview CF to help you set the timber sale in motion?

What's an industry standard for fees or % of sale for the Foresters ?

Bump

Fees are negotiable. We think our guy gets 8%. He's in charge of the whole process now. Everything from getting bids to which section needs to be cut, where new food plots should go....

8% is a huge number. There's no way I'd pay that under any circumstance. That's more than a real estate agent, a lot more actually.

On just a regular clear cut I'll take a 3% all day long and be happy.

I guess I won't be working for Remington anytime soon 8% aint any huge number for a good forester depending on the sale. We charge 10% on handling first thins and go down from there depending on the value of the sale. As cruiser said, I would and have done clearcuts for 3% and been happy, but with log prices as sorry as they are now, I doubt I would do it in this timber market.

I have a pine log sale I tried to get a lump sum price on about a month ago and nobody would give a price because of the log market.

We had 3 no sales this summer because of no interest, no prices worth selling, or no loggers available. Never seen it this bad! You would starve to death on 8% across the board regardless of how many sales you had. Get too many going and you can't monitor them correctly. I'll take 4-6% on land sales all day because it takes MUCH less work! Even with split commissions. Like comparing apples to tomatoes. They both are round and red/green.

Plus anyone who wants to do the online course can get a real estate license. You need a 4 year college degree at a reputable Forestry school, several years in field experience, and an intensive test in front of a Certification board to show your knowledge to become a Registered Forester. Not very comparable.