I’ve heard this said in the past and its been my opinion as well that bucks just don’t like to hang out around does during most of the year…..rut being the exception. They would seek out other places to bed away from the areas where the does were bedding and living…While there’s likely still some truth to that from a social aspect….my opinion has changed a little bit on what causes this. I think its much more a function of buck dispersal and where the young bucks end up calling home in the very beginning. Think about it for a minute…..When the young bucks leave their mamas and go off to find a new home….What happens? Where do they eventually stop and set up shop???......What happens when they run up on that nice bedding area beside the nice green field that’s full of does??.....They get whopped on the head and kicked on down the road eventually finding a place to call home where there are no aggressive does …..That’s likely what they set up as their core area for the rest of their life…..So the fact that they hang out most of the year where few does live was a function of where they found a place to fit-in in the beginning.....Just a thought…..

Here’s another opinion I have about bucks and where they bed…..I’ve mentioned this one before but its worth adding to this thread. Its really not my theory or anything…..but someone else’s that I’ve come to agree with. Big old bucks don’t seek out these secret secluded hiding spots…..Its these secluded spots that make the big old bucks…..In other words, the bucks that grow old and get some age on the are the ones who just got lucky as a dispersing yearling and called one of these spots their home and core area. As a result he was able to avoid contact with hunters. This is what happens in areas of urban/rural interface……this is also what happens in places like Jackson Co where there are isolated areas to rugged for hunters to get to....Bankhead is another example...... Some dispersing youngster takes up residence in one of these spots and is able to grow old as a result. He didn’t seek that spot out later in life. These are great areas to locate on any property you hunt. It may just be a ridge point or something that gives the buck such a strategic advantage that he's sees or smells you coming every time.

Good read. Lot has to come together for a big deer to make it walking across 50-40 acre parcels during hunting season and not getting shot or a lot of people not shooting that deer to make it to 5 years old. Smaller deer nearby will probably be ones to get shot and then one may come by from 7 miles away that lived on a spot that was not pushed out of it on a constant bases and a person drops it. If big deer decide to move out of a heavily human traveled area then the deer that got shot may have been a result of the larger deer moving it out or even a mature mother deer. I have seen some nice bedding areas over the years that just would not take the human pressure, so the larger deer moved on. I would have like to had tracking on a deer that would came througn an area years ago just to find out it's core area and actually would have like to have seen the deer. I would see the extra large track of that deer come through only one time a year for about five or more years. Clearly, it was a deer pushing 200 lbs plus. The last year I seen the track some dog hunters had just shot a large 9pt that was about that size and that was the last year I seen it. I think they were running that deer out of some private land and shot it on a non-dog WMA; otherwise that deer may have never been killed. Never seen a track that large in that area since! There are many variables to get a shot at a 5 plus year old deer even if the legal hunters let it go to get to that age.

I bet it would be pretty hard to make an old buck abandon his core area after he’s had it established his whole life. This is one of the reason why I look at small summer plots and feeders, etc as being very limited in their impacts….I know a lot of folks look at summer plots and see them as drawing in bucks from the neighbors or bringing in new bucks to call their place home. etc….but I just don’t think that’s the case…..I think what you would really want to shoot for in these situations would be to concentrate the local doe groups onto your property and have them draw in the bucks. The crazy thing to me though is how folks plant summer plots, put out feeders, trap coyotes, etc, etc…..and then come deer season they start blasting their does because they “need shooting”.

The good buck I shot this year had returned to my place during the rut for at least a second straight year. We’re talking about literally returning to the same green field. I’d be curious to know if he had done it prior to that as well. That leads me to believe that other bucks are likely doing the same thing. They spend most of the year in their safe core area that they found as a dispersing yearling and then move into a different area of high doe concentrations for the rut. If many return to the same areas year after year then it would probably be good to protect as many does as you could on your place instead of shooting the chit out of them for no good reason. You may be drawing in bucks from literally several miles around ...... especially if your neighbors are “managing does”.

I own 4 small tracts (All less than 100AC) all within 5min of each other. Identical or Very Similar timber, food source, water, bedding, access, neighbors, etc. On 2 of the tracts we haven’t killed a doe in over 30yrs. On the other 2 tracts over the last 20yrs we have killed an average of 2 doe per tract per year (not very many) Year in and year out literally for decades now, the 2 tracts we do not kill does on produce better bucks and an older age class of bucks. We kill plenty of young bucks on all of the tracts so it’s not a matter of less hunting pressure or less killing. Without there being any other clear indications or logic, I gravitate towards the doe harvest theory you’ve presented.

Young does don’t disperse like young bucks do…..so replacing does that have been thinned out isn’t easy unless you have a neighbor or neighbors who are just over run with them and they’re wanting to spread out due to social reasons. In a lot of cases if you go in there and whack does then its just gonna take the remaining doe groups on your property having babies to replace those you whacked. With coyotes being so prevalent now that might not happen so easily. I don’t think the majority of folks have to worry too much about thinning out does these days like they think they do…..We’re at a whole different place now than we were a decade or two ago. Those bucks know where those high concentrations of does exist and their gonna come back to them year after year if the doe populations remain constant. I’ve been hunting the same small property now for 14 years and stockpiling does in here on it year after year…..It’s been a pretty successful strategy………I think coyote control will play a big role in doing this in the future…..Does recognize the absence of yotes and will concentrate in areas where they don’t exist or where they’re numbers are controlled.

Mature bucks are all individuals , no one size fits all. They are like grumpy old men and want to be left alone. The truly old studs will seek out more secluded spots to bed as they mature. Now secluded may be in a thicket near a subdivision or the most remote , rugged spot in a area where many would say the gentle areas are rugged. I believe their core area shrinks, they are old and established and have nothing to find and prove. There's a reason they bed in a certain spot. I've found many and think why here and after studying the situation a little have a ah ha moment.

As far as the mountains of Jackson County , some folks not familiar would say the whole county is rugged and remote. To the locals it's not. That being said , older bucks here will seek out the most remote and rugged spots to bed here just like in flat land or suburbs. I've hunted Jackson Co for nearly 50 years and always tried to hunt areas without much human pressure , deer hunting has never been a social event for me. So on these properties with low pressure and the fairly rugged terra , I've found the really old studs will still bed and travel in the absolute roughest , thickest areas. If I were hunting a new property and wanted to kill a mature buck I'd first go to the roughest, thickest , most remote area nobody else hunted . They don't get old walking around in wide open , pretty timber or out into food plots. Think grumpy old men.

I’ll agree with you that their core area likely shrinks but I disagree that they change their core area as they get older and "seek out" other places…..If the core area they’ve been using has kept them alive up until that point….why would they up and change it after 4 or 5 years???

It’s the spot that made the old buck….not the old buck seeking out the spot….JMO

We run a lot of cameras. A LOT. That being said, I can usually walk up to a camera and look at the total picture count and tell whether or not there's going to be a good one on it . Other than one or two occurrences I have never had a true mature buck in an area with a bunch of does.

Growing up, I learned to pay no attention to those heavily used trails and places with a lot of tracks and to seek out that one lone track or those trails that you can barely see. Preferably going and coming from an area but most times they seem to make a loop and that's a whole other conversation in itself. I will say, I have never killed a mature deer out of a stand that I see lots of activity. My theory is if you're seeing a bunch of does and young 1-2yr olds then he isn't going to be there. Time to move.

I agree with you with the exception of a 15-20 day time period during the rut. During this time this high populated areas are exactly where you want to be in my opinion. I stockpile does in here on my small property and as a result I often times will not see ANY bucks at all until Jan....That all changes around Jan 7-10.....Around that time I have bucks suddenly ly start showing up and hanging out with the does. What's interesting to me is that they show up ahead of the rut.....How do they know that the does are about to go in to estrous....does the length of daylight hours trigger something in them as well letting them know???....Do the does begin putting out some type of smell abesd of going into estrous??? How do the bucks know to change their patterns and that it's time to move in a week or two ahead of time???

Let me add this too.....these pattern changes and such are occurring each year pretty much on the exact same date....I'll have to go back and look but I think two years ago I had the first rub pop up on Jan 7 or 8 and started seeing the bucks show up..…….This last year it was the dame exact time frame. The good buck I killed showed back up within a day or two of when he had shown up the previous year. There's something definitive triggering it. I would just chalk it up to the does going into estrous if it weren't for bucks showing up 7-14 days ahead of time...I guess maybe there's a few strays popping off early and that's what is setting if off...I don't know.....Our peak activity typically occurs around the Jan 20-30.....

That's ^^^ what I said only a different way. Never said they changed their core area at an advanced age, but wouldn't surprise me if some do. They are all individuals, the words always and never rarely apply to mature bucks.

If you must run cameras in season, put one on the back of the tree turned 180 degrees from the primary. You might be surprised what you get.

Here’s what I perceive to be happening……I’m not saying this is completely right or wrong…..just throwing out thoughts on the subject……

When the young bucks disperse….(and the “when” is another topic to talk about one day)….but when they disperse its like you’ve kicked an ant bed and yearling are randomly moving across the landscape in every direction most likely without a whole lot of rhyme of reason. Habitat type and deer density probably have the biggest effect on them….But lets just imagine were looking at a google earth map of the county where you hunt…..It’s like ants going every which a way in a big game of musical chairs. Alright now…..on that map are key locations where people may not be able to hunt for whatever reason or maybe its too rugged to access….There’s gonna even be some places that get hunted hard but will have a strategic location that just gives the deer too much of an advantage…..When the music stops and the dispersing young bucks have all found them a place to fit in….Its simply luck for some of them that they landed in one of these spots and started calling it home. They will likely have a chance to grow old and that will be the most influential reason why. When the stars really line up is when it’s the top end buck that gets lucky and ends up in one of those places……

So I know I’ve said most of that once already but I repeated it because I want to add on to that some. Now don’t get me wrong…...I believe as bucks age they definitely get smarter and wiser to a degree…..But I think we mislabel some traits as them being smart when in actuality its more being “wary”…….Just think of a turkey for instance…..I wouldn’t call a turkey smart or intelligent really….they have a brain the size of a pea …..but they can be extremely wary. I think as bucks age they become more and more so and that is likely what saves them as much as being “smart”. That and learning to use their nose as a tool more and more. I’ve killed several mature bucks over the years in my big food plot….But it was simply because they let some hot coochie temporarily cloud their judgment for a moment. I’ve seen more than one walk out into the field behind a doe and then just suddenly stop and have this look like “Oh chit!....What did I just do!?!”…..They are extremely wary of walking out in the open. It was if they were so focused on the hot doe though that they didn’t even realize they were exposing themselves until it was too late. They would turn and head back for cover but by that time they had already fugged up and gave me a shot. I’ve watched them numerous times stay back in the woods and watch the hot doe from the cover. Every so often though that hot tail causes them to lose focus.

That leads me into where I think we may be able to actually give them credit for being “smart” to some degree….even still I don’t know if its true intelligence or instinctive prey behavior of some kind…..but I don’t think it takes any deer….buck or doe…..but once or twice to experience something in order to develop a learned behavior in response to it. (This applies to the coyote thread as well) In other words….it may only take one time for that buck to see his buddy get shot walking out into a food plot to develop a negative association with it. I see it with does al the time….Start blasting does on a greenfield while a bunch of others are out feeding in it at the same time and see how long it takes the to catch on….it won’t take very many …..I think they likely carry those negative learned responses with them for quite awhile….This is just throwing out a complete guess but maybe bucks carry them for the rest of their lives…..I think this ability to learn quickly or adapt quickly amplifies the wariness of the older bucks….I’ve even seen a negative response from the from a street light at night…..I think there are people in the larger area around me shooting them at night under street lights or out of their houses with a spotlight….The reason I think that is because the older bucks are scared to death to walk out of the cover at night into the streetlight no different than if it were daylight.

I like sitting on the back porch during the peak of the rut at night and just watching what happens around my clover patch that’s lit up by a street light. One night a couple years ago I had a bunch of does out there feeding and suddenly I heard a long deep grunt from down on the thicket. You could hear a buck down there thrashing trees and this and that but he wouldn’t come out of the cover. I grunted at him just to see what happened and when I did he walked out just enough to see what was happening for a second or two and then disappeared again….It was just long enough for me to see it was a nice tall 8 point likely with some age on him….Well, several nights later I was watching the does again and listening to grunting and chasing when all of sudden out of the corner my eye hear comes that tall 8 just on a fast walk right out into the light like he didn’t have a care in the world. He made it about 4 or 5 steps into the light and I could literally see his eyeballs get wide like he had seen a ghost…..There was no doubt that he had an “Oh chit!” moment because he about broke his neck trying to turn around and retreat when he realized what he had done…..That kind of wariness of street lights….open areas, etc…..is on a whole different level and is one of the reasons they become so hard to kill.

The final attribute that I think we tend to overlook is how little they actually move around……especially during daylight hours……I don’t watch them too much anymore but I used to really like the survival shows that came on….Survivorman, Dual Survivor, Naked and Afraid, etc…etc…..If you’ve watched these shows very much you’ve likely learned from them that “survival” is a game of calories consumed versus calories burned. These folks look at everything in terms of how much energy is that gonna cost me and what is the easiest meal with the least amount of effort, etc….They don’t just go on walks down the beach to enjoy the afternoon…..There’s even times when they stay held up in camp just laying there to conserve calories…..I think deer are much the same in that they are survivors as well playing a really similar game…..They don’t move around just because it’s a pretty day and they’re going to the park to see friends…..They move for specific reasons….outside of the rut that’s mainly just to eat. To take that a step farther….if they can find everything they need in one small area then they don’t have any reason to go anywhere else. I’ve seen this on our lease in Union Springs…..there’s one 40 acre corner where the same bucks seem to never leave.

With all that being said….I don’t see much of any of it being that bucks “seek out” these honey holes…..Its luck in the beginning and then wariness and reducing the size of their core area later on. I’ve got a few other thoughts on it but I’ll leave it at that for the sake of not getting to long with one post.

On a small acreage tract, the best thing you can do by far to attract bucks is to attract and keep does on the property, and then wait until the rut. Other than opening week of bow season I have never had much luck seeing large bucks outside of the rut. They become nocturnal and rarely move. You are highly unlikely to see them outside of the rut even if you can convince them to live on your place. As CNC said, I don't think there is much you can do to convince large bucks to live on your property as a core area. They tend to pick their spot based on spacing from other bucks and then stick with it until the rut year after year. All you can do is let the young ones grow that do decide to choose your property. The one sure bet you can do to have a chance at killing a big one is have a lot of does on your place during the rut. Those does will get bred and it happens day and night.

You guys are putting way to much thought into this.....

If you don't have any 5 year old deer on your property they died. Either by natural causes or trigger.

That's about it really. You are looking all over for a theory and reason you aren't seeing a mature deer and wondering what they are doing. They aren't doing anything. They aren't there.

Did a deer that actually survives to see 5 years old seek out a hiding place on your property? Maybe, but the real question is why do you only have 1 mature deer on your property. There is no theoretical explanation as to why he was hiding in a patch of privet hedge. That's just where his luck ran out when you both met there.

"There should be a deer in this 50 acre thicket and I bet he is only walking around doing XYZ thinking ABC."

Naw.

The moral of that story is if you want 5 year old deer you need to convince your neighbors not to shoot 3.5 year olds. If you have several 5 year old deer you will see them and have the opportunity to shoot one. The reason they are so elusive is they don't exist or in such a limited number that everything is irrelevant.

And BTW - shooting the does lowers your odds of having a 5 year old by reducing the numbers of bucks born each year to replenish the pool.

It isn't scientific, there is no guesswork.... it's common sense which isn't common.

Did you give this statement ANY thought? ...….I mean really....go back and read again what you just wrote....."You're putting too much thought into it" ......Lawd have mercy.....






BTW.....Who said anything about not seeing bucks???

For anyone who is interested....try this tactic. Sometimes in the next few weeks take a back pack spray and some glyphosate and make sure trip to your favorite food plot. Get in your shooting house or stand....Scan the perimeter of the field from one side to the other and pick out 4-6 spots that would be the simplest to create a shooting lane 30-40 yards back into the woods. It's gonna look like a wheel spoke pattern extending out from your stand. Now this is the most important part. Your not gonna make traditional shooting lanes or open something that looks like power line right of ways. You want it to be very inconspicuous and natural..... You're not gonna open it up 30-40 yards wide or anything....you just want enough to give you view back into the woods and as possible shot. This is why you're gonna use glyphosate....Go in right now and just do a real quick spray eraditcally waving the wand around....your just thinnimg the vegetation and leaves a little by burning them. Repeat this later this summer but remember to try not to open them up too much and make it where the buck feels exposed.

What you're hoping to take advantage of is the older bucks tendencies to follow the does to the food plot but never actually walks out in them....most folks likely never even know they're there. They'll often times circle the plot while staying back in the woods....this is where your inconspicuous wheel spoke lanes are gonna to catch him slipping....When the does come out in the field don't watch them.....watch your lanes for movement.....don't panic if you don't get a shot in the first you catch him in....that's why you made more of them

We have a "green field' on our lease that some one usually kills a good buck at every 2-3 years. Its a long narrow curved field if that makes sense, its at the base of a ridge int the middle of of a bunch of hard woods. every good buck that has been shot there has never stepped foot in the field. Theres a big shooting lane out the back one was killed in. 2 where killed waking about half way up the ridge and the others where killed to the left of the stand about 40-50 yards in the hardwoods.

We also have a bigger one acre field where we would constantly catch glimpses of big body deer in the woods. This year a guy put a stand up about 10 yards off the field facing the woods and shot a big 7 point

Here’s something else you can do too dealing with the same general situation…….This one is gonna require you to have a spot with the right terrain features and such for it to be effective. You’ll want to give this one a good bit of forethought before just putting your “trap” out.

So most of the time that buck isn’t gonna come out in the green field with the doe….About the only time you may get lucky and have that happen is if she’s close to being receptive, The vast majority of the time the buck is gonna stay tucked back just inside the wood line or thicket where he is able to keep an eye on his lady through the gaps in the vegetation. He may just stand ther motionless for a long time if he can see her and nothing else is going on in the plot…..Here’s what will get him in trouble though. They can’t stand to lose sight of that doe their tending and not be able to keep tabs on what’s happening. They’re afraid that another buck will step in and it will drive them to make tge mistake that will give you a shot. What you are gonna do is to take a feeder and put it in a strategic location around your food plot that causes the buck to not be able to see her when she goes to it. Maybe over a little rise or down in gulley or…..maybe even put it out and plant a big circle of Egyptian wheat around it.

There’s a bunch of different possibilities you just need to really think about how it may unfold when the time comes…..Where do the does bed and typically enter the field? Where’s a spot where the buck won’t be able to circle around and stay in the cover??....etc…..etc……Try it though……You may be surprised…….Give it a few minutes for him to get antsy and if he doesn’t commit…..give you grunt call one or two toots and then put it down…..I’ve seen bucks have a complete come apart because of the situation here at my house….thrashing trees….snort wheezing…..,,some kind of real short repetitive snort when he really got pissed off that I’d never heard before…..I watched/listened to an older buck damn near have a meltdown one night when this other 3 year old buck walked out into the street light and started messing with his doe. He was in some serious turmoil over not wanting to walk out into the light and having that other buck mess with his doe. His vocalizations and bush thrashing intimidated the younger deer after a minute of two and he left. As soon as he hit the darkness into the thicket you could hear that older buck run him on off.