Hell, you still haven’t answered my two questions. I’ve it explained to you over and over. You won’t answer my question because you know that you’re not maximizing your space. This whole thing was supposed to be a learning experience for you. If you keep doing the same thing over and over without using what you’ve learned on the previous times, have you really learned anything?

You’re are planting foodplots. How you can’t see that replacing a non beneficial plant with a beneficial one that accomplishes the same goals but that wildlife will actually eat is baffling.

If you can’t see that, then nobody can help you.

How do we take dog fennel out?

I don’t understand why you participate on this thread in the first place…. you have no interest in any of this other than just being an antagonistic pecker head…..but that’s ok because it gives me a reason for diving deeper into it for others who are interested……So by all means…..proceed sir……

I’m actually wondering if you’re even taking the time to read the answers and comprehend them because I’ve already responded to this in detail just few posts ago…here it is again below…..I even mentioned in a follow up post about planting more cereal grains in winter...from 3-8 acres and not seeing any change....so I looked to adding cover instead of food







As far as the garden question.....I usually just grow some tomato plants but the last few “gardens” I’ve grown have been experiments with natural farming practices. I did have some watermelons that showed up for several years as a result. I’m not gonna open that can of worms right now but if you want to learn more about it then google “natural farming”

You dang right...they LOVE it..... The problem I have now is trying to walk around without jumping them. The does get used to me though and they'll hold real tight most of the time.

Come to think of it…..I think I actually will open up that natural farming can of worms……

Natural farming is a method of planting gardens that was made popular by the same Japanese farmer that wrote “The One Straw Revolution”…..I would say that natural farming is a cousin to what we’re doing with natural food plots but its more like a brother or sister…..It’s the same overall concepts and principles….just with the finer details tweaked a little to accommodate deer and other wildlife instead of growing food for humans. It's where many of my ideas have stemmed from in doing a lot of what you see me doing. I’m pretty much just growing a “natural garden” for deer. I’m using plants that nature has provided me for these animals and I'm just “tending” to those plants. I’m just not doing it by hand like the natural farmers….I’m using my tractor to tend to it. One idea that I’ve talked about a couple times too that really needs to be given some thought too…..is that every plant isn’t designed to be a deer food and that’s ok. There’s other jobs that need doing within this idea of natural food plotting as a sister to natural farming. Like I was saying in the other post….I’d say that dang near 80% of the plants that grow in my field as well as the rest of the understory…they get browsed by deer. I can deal with that just fine. Those other 20% are still working for me too though and I can use them to serve a purpose as well. I’m bringing in everything the deer likes….not just the food. Healthy soil is one of the biggest things I'm bringing in because that's the foundation of where it all starts.

You just have to recognize what things the deer really like. Going around to dozens of properties tracking deer for folks……and seeing all of the different deer densities and such….I’ve seen a good sample size of “what deer like”……That’s what I’m trying to recreate…..The attributes of these properties that are making them great…..One big one is the amount of acreage in understory habitat similar to what you see me growing. It’s a little different because they’re mostly using fire and I’m small scale deer gardening….species may change and it may look a little different but the concepts all still remain the same. This is why I keep saying that I’m managing for deer….not humans…..Which one are you more concerned with? What humans want to see and do….or what the deer like? Deer don't care about "pretty"...…..

There you go reverting to name calling. I’m here because you asked a question about your plot and I answered it. You didn’t want to have a discussion on it cause it wasn’t what you’re doing or liked. Whats the point of trying to learn something, if you’re not gonna use it to your benefit?

One thing I have learned is you don’t want a discussion if it doesn’t agree with what you’re doing. If you’d open your mind alittle, you’d be surprised what you might learn.

I’ve grown tried of trying to have a discussion with you. Have fun with your “groundhog day” of learning.

I’m not growing a garden…..I’m rotating between a natural food plot in the summer and cereal grains in the winter…..
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You're not growing pines either, yet you tried to do some flawed analogy with it.
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The concept of nature taking a progressive approach and moving from a pioneer condition to a climax condition are one in the same whether it be forests or soil….both progress through stages....that is not a flawed analogy. I like how you never provide any explanation for your criticism. Care to elaborate any?...Maybe with something a little deeper than two sentences and another question?
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Hell, you still haven’t answered my two questions. I’ve it explained to you over and over. You won’t answer my question because you know that you’re not maximizing your space. This whole thing was supposed to be a learning experience for you. If you keep doing the same thing over and over without using what you’ve learned on the previous times, have you really learned anything?

You’re are planting foodplots. How you can’t see that replacing a non beneficial plant with a beneficial one that accomplishes the same goals but that wildlife will actually eat is baffling.

If you can’t see that, then nobody can help you.
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If you take out the fennel, how do you propose that he prevents a different, possibly noxious plant from taking its place? The only way I see that happening is if you plant a summer plot. And any kind of plot grown in the summer for deer can be pointless on alot of properties, depending on deer density. But my plots stayed full of deer all summer eating natural growth

CNC. You’re being very innovative. Can you find us a use for Palmer pigweed next please?

They’re still browsing many things even now into November and will continue to do so throughout the winter…..A lot of this type of thinking where we need to replace everything with “something more beneficial” comes from the commercialization of hunting and food plotting. It’s no different than the rant about Grant Woods downplaying broadcasting to sell the sponsor’s drills or beans…..We’ve been pandered to with those types of messages so long that everyone believes that we have to go buy something better out of a bag if we really want to manage deer. It’s not true though nor feasible in many situations. There are many, many plants out there that we can grow for free that are actually superior to those other plants in many ways….drought tolerance is one of them….browse tolerance is another……you could go on with many attributes that make a lot of that natural plants better choices in my mind. Its not to say that those other plants in a bag don’t have their place as well in some situations…but they’re just not the necessity that all the commercialization would have you to believe.



One thing that really opened my eyes a lot last year was sitting on the back porch watching them at night. They loved the clover no doubt…..but the deer spent just as much time browsing around below it in the dewberry bushes and other native plants….all winter long….I got down in there to check it out one day and it looked hedge trimmer had went across all of it. That area has come back strong and is ready for another round…..and it's free…..Hard to beat free. I've got 2 acre of cereal grains.....2 acres of clover....and about 20 acres of natural understory growth...Lots of food tonnage there...lots of biomass....lots of diversity....lots of cover....virtually no cost other than the cereal grains.

If you don’t want Palmer Pigweed then I would look toward the conditions or management techniques that are causing it to thrive. Treat the root cause of the problem and not just a symptom of that problem. I’m not dealing with it right now though so I don’t know any specifics about it to tell you….just larger concepts that you’ll have to apply to the situation if you choose to....Are you talking about farming now or food plotting?

Either. That weed doesn’t care what it’s in

Is it considered a non-native invasive specie?

Given the spirited discussion going on now, and having been someone who has actually tried throw and mow, by whatever name you want to call it, for a few years on less than all of my food plots, I thought I'd try to summarize somethings I learned by observation, reading, watching videos, and trial and error. I even re-read as much of this thread as I could stand.

First, the absolute gold standard for no-till, is to no-till with a drill. That likely requires the following equipment, at a minimum: (1) a tractor, (2) an expensive drill, (3) a sprayer, and (4) a roller, ideally, an expensive "crimper." If you want to see how this works, google growing deer TV and watch Grant Woods' videos. I don't have the money to buy a drill or crimper, nor do I have the size of the food plots that they have in order to run an operation like they do. I have a bunch of food plots, mostly .5 an acre or less. With a few 2-2.5 acres. It's the nature of the property - part owned and part leased. Woods says rent one, or go in with some other folks to buy one, but I don't see that as a real option for me. I do own a sprayer, however, to keep cogongrass and other invasives at bay.

Second, if you don't have a drill, I believe it is absolutely essential to have the following equipment: (1) a sprayer, (2) a means to broadcast your seed, and (3) a means to get the seed to the soil under any thatch. One and two are pretty simple. in fact, you could do those with a backpack sprayer and a hand spreader in a pinch if you weren't planting many acres. three could be a mower of some kind, weed eater or, even better, some time of roller to the seed to the soil, even behind an ATV. If you are relying in a mower only, you absolutely MUST plant at or near a fairly heavy rain to get the larger seeds like wheat, oats, rye, down to the soil. if you are planting several acres, I'd consider a tractor, a three-point spreader, a three-point sprayer, and a rotary cutter or some type of roller essential, ideally, a roller or cultipacker.

Why do I say you need a sprayer, when so many others say you can do T&M without one? Because I've tried it and it didn't work for me without one. Why? Because mowing alone does not terminate grasses. Arguably, it can make them take off and form a mat on your food plots, which then prevents seed to soil contact when you "throw." Mowing will usually terminate the broadleafs that get in the way, but that's it. What are you going to do with all the grasses that keep coming back, year after year? Based on my experience, they are eventually going to take over your food plots unless you figure out a way to get rid of them. This hits on some of the points that have been discussed recently.

Third, the last thing I would say is that it's hard to do this without a summer cover crop. Why? Again, this is based on my experience. When you plant in the fall, you need the ability to have two things: (1) create a good thatch layer, and (2) terminate the existing plants to make sure they don't compete with what you are planting. If you are just randomly growing what most of us would call "weeds" in the summer, then you may end up with a bunch of plants that don't create a good thatch layer in the fall. Many of us have sandy soil, especially those of us in south Alabama. There, you are going to end up with dog fennel, ragweed, and some other stuff that doesn't create the greatest of thatch layers in the fall. It's possible to fix this if you mow two or three times over the course of a summer and saving your last set of "weeds" for about 4-6 weeks before your first forecasted frost. But, it's much easier if you plant something that will create a thatch layer when you spray and mow it in the fall. Buckwheat is really, really good, but certainly not cheap. Millet is good, but it absolutely must be sprayed at the end of the year. Why? Because it will re-sprout if allowed to go to seed. Ever mowed a field of millet down in September or October for doves? I have. It resprouts quickly given our warm fall temperatures, and will be competing with your wheat and rye if you aren't careful. Granted, the first frost will kill it, but it's going to come up before then.

Fourth, most people think of throw and mow, and think of less labor. I don't agree. It requires the same amount of time, if not more. What it can cut down on, eventually, if you keep going, is your fertilizer costs. I'm not quitting T&M yet, but I've rethought it.

Finally, one of the things that is true about it is that you need to go heavy on rye for cereal grains, and then probably some clover and brassicas. Why? Because rye is hardy and will create an easy crop to terminate in the spring that will reduce or eliminate weeds in the spring to make it easier to plant a cover crop. The downside to rye is that it is not as palatable to deer as wheat, oats, triticale. It just isn't. I'm hoping to incorporate more wheat, oats, triticale as time goes by and thatch layer improves. We shall see.

I've rebooted my T&M stuff to incorporate spraying. I haven't bought a cultipacker or roller yet, but plan to if I'm going to stay with T&M. If the spraying doesn't cure my "weed" issues, then, I'm going back to 100% traditional because I don't have the cash to buy a drill.

That’s good stuff Alfisher……..Very observant…..One thing that first came to my mind when you talked about the grasses and needing to spray. When I first started my field was nothing but nearly pure crabgrass….As I’ve progressed to healthier soil though and as its changed over time….so has the species composition. I can now find 25+ different species in the field and as the conditions still continue to change….the broadleafs are becoming more prolific.

What we have to do is just recognize the conditions we want to see out of that mass of summer vegetation and tweak things slightly here and there to make it like that. We want it to be a nice mix of grasses, broadleafs, and legumes that will serves all of our needs. That hay to cover the seed and feed the soil OM…..that broadleaf to feed the deer and provide and more woody OM…..and the legume to feed the deer and bring back some nitrogen…..That’s how to make the cycle efficiently turn. You just need to look at the all the tools available and all the different manners in which we have to tweak the process…..Mowing frequency and timing are one really big tool. This “just right” mixture probably wont happen for many until a number of years down the road when the soil conditions have been changed enough to allow it.

You must have a really big tractor. Planting conventionally, we spent hours upon hours, upon hours discing, burning diesel and turning over soil. Now we do all the other steps but skip that. I don't see how you can't save time. It's really the only reason I do it that way.

Let me add one more thing to that too…..Just simply “not tilling” for a year doesn’t in and of itself always progress your situation as far the soil fertility is concerned. If you’re not growing big biomass crops then you won’t see much change because that’s where most of the change comes from….in the amount of carbon being added back. Also let’s say we just had all grass or all legume…..In one situation the process would likey be locked up due to an overload of carbon locking up all the N……in the other situation you would likely be declining in OM% because you’ve got all legume and no carbon…..What I’m getting at is you could cease tillage and still not be improving your soil if the right steps were not taken to allow the soil to improve and become more balanced.

I agree with Remi on the saving in time and labor too….I don’t see how you’re not saving time. Just like Remi said…I used to spend hours disking and planting……Now its just almost like not even being a task. I’m even tweaking things to make it less and less time spent on it….After what I see from this year’s experiment…I don’t see me doing much more than broadcasting in the fall now and knocking over the vegetation with my bucket. My only task is to make sure I keep succession set back and balanced the way I want it by making a tweak here and there during the summer months.

Don't take any of this critically...it's just good debate.

This for Hayman……and anyone else I suppose who had a hard time with the way it looked after planting..……


It’s still almost 2 weeks to gun season at this point and that hay that made it look messy to us in the beginning is already disappearing…..You can see where this is eventually headed….Another couple weeks that hay will be long gone. That’s because nature is working for me. There’s no need in me “disking it in”……I was given animals to do that task and they all live below ground….I’m tending to those animals like I’m tending to the plants. Is looking a little messy in the beginning worth the trade off for all that I’ve saved in time, money, labor….Not to mention that I’m becoming more and more fertile to boot.

It’s a little early to make the call but I do believe the dried mollasses I added is speeding up the process….getting rid of the hay faster and allowing the grains to jump quicker. I noticed it from the stand as the molasses area started jumping out at me.




Adios dog fennel……We return you back to the soil to make rich compost to feed these goats with.

For anyone who plans to do this long term you will have to move away from simply the idea of Throw and Mow and focus on just understanding the larger concepts of how nature functions....the soil....the plants....the whole cycle. It’s all a matter of whether you believe in those concepts or not. Your method will then be up to you to apply according to what best fits the scenario and progresses it forward. If you haven’t taken the time to read “The One Straw Revolution” then you’re likely still just focusing on the method of Throw and Mow. That book is where most of the concepts were derived. It’s a different read for sure but if you don’t understand the concepts the old Japanese farmer is preaching about in the book….then you really aren’t fully seeing the whole picture of what’s going on with our no-till food plots.

Take the time to read the book and then post up your opinion about it. There’s a free pdf version online. Don’t get hung up in the weeds of religion when reading. There’s a spiritual side to this whole idea of natural farming that I’ve purposely never dove into very much. I figured everything else was enough for folks to grasp without throwing in a concept that deep to muddy the waters even more. I’m about to open that can of worms as well though……

Remington270,

I say that because I used to never plant a cover crop or do anything in the summer. I just let it sit, and then disc in the fall. Now, the summer requires a good bit of babysitting, some cover crops, and some spraying. I have a small tractor, which leads to a small sprayer, and spraying the acres I have (14) with it is time consuming. That's why I say it's a wash. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

One my complaints with the method is there really aren't a whole lot of resources that have the exact steps involved. There are if you have a drill, but not if you are doing it without one. If I were to come up with one it would be this, keeping in mind I'm in south Alabama, and assuming you didn't do T&m the year before:

(1) 9/1 or thereabout - spray a mix of glyphosate and 24d to kill everything. Wait two weeks.
(2) if you have a mat of thatch that will prevent seed from getting to soil, you will need to rake the food plot.
(3) if kill is good and no mat, broadcast 100-150lbs an acre of rye, 5-10lbs of crimson clover, and 1-2 lbs per acre of brassicas. mow, roll or cultipack as soon as a good heavy rain is forecast in 24 hours, or at the time of a rain. the latter part is key. If you don't get a good rain with this method right away, the birds will kill you, especially turkeys.
(4) In mid April, before the rye really seeds out, seed buckwheat into it at a rate of 50lbs per acre, mow the rye down on top of it, or spray it first and then seed.
(5) Try to get more than one crop out of the buckwheat by letting it seed out, then mowing it and regenerating. Sometimes, buckwheat gets too hot and doesn't seed out properly. Just depends on when you plant it. During this time, you will probably need to spray it with clethodim if you get a grass problem.
(6) if all goes well (and it almost never does exactly), you can broadcast the rye, CC, and brassicas in the fall and repeat, sometimes without spraying. However, if, as has happened just about every time with me, you get a mix of undesirable grasses and broadleafs in your buckwheat, you will need to spray again, and repeat.

The old way, I did zero between end of deer season and discing. That's why I say, at best, it's a wash.