Mark Buxton - Comment on Turkeys

I don't agree with everything he says or leads people to believe, but he made a pretty good post on Facebook about turkey populations and thought I would share:

"There's a hen being bred the first week of March. So does delaying hunting season guarantee higher turkey numbers in the future? Absolutely not. Does the majority of your does being bred guarantee a high fawn recruitment? Absolutely not. What good is having hens bred early or more successfully if the nesting habitat is still low quality and nest predator numbers are sky high? What increases fawn recruitment numbers even though most does are bred? The quality of fawning habitat! Why do we have clients who have been hunting their properties hard during breeding season for years and still have high and/or increasing turkey numbers? Why do we have clients who see an increase in turkey numbers just prior to nesting season? They have great nesting habitat, great brood habitat and annually reduce nest predator numbers. I think state agencies are putting a band aid on a cut that needs stitches."

He would be correct on habitat and predator management being the two keys to turkeys. However, taking a shot at state agencies who can only control when and how many you harvest legally is a low blow. I’m with most folks against moving seasons back based on theory. That’s not the answer. I don’t understand why they feds don’t get involved and start encouraging grants and other incentives in regards to habitat. There’s a few out there, but the vast majority of the lands in Alabama continue to sit dormant year after year with no change. Make it worth folks while if you care about the wildlife as much as they say they do.

majority is leased timber land and when a timber co tells you they are for "wildlife habitat management" then they have lied to your face.

all they want is to cut timber and replace it with pines. spray the understory and rinse and repeat

Exactly, why not offer incentive.

I agree with his statement
Guys the only incentive we will ever see is knowing that trapping/predator elimination and habitat management are the only way we will see our deer and turkey thrive and that is solely on us
The state or fed will never offer anything except more regulations and more fees
When will we learn that the name of the game is not Conservation

This is so true. Trapping coons was the key to changing the turkey population in the club I was in until recently. One guy started trapping coons because they were eating all the deer corn and then some others joined in, and it made a world of difference. The turkey population there is booming and it’s just typical loblolly timber company habitat. You just have to out in the time and effort to get rid of them.

We are hammering them this year on our place as best as we can. Between a thinning on one piece of the property and a bare ground cutover on another end there are brush piles everywhere. Nothing but predator dens!!. I wish I could light fire to all of them and shoot whatever comes out.

If you ain’t trapping and killing predators you are backing up . I agree with him on that

Agree, what is the state supposed to do? Control burn private acres they don't have access to? Trap coons on land they don't have access to?

The state has access to tens of thousands of acres to trap and try different management methods rather than implement something state wide before they know the science is accurate

Correct but we are still talking about the same thing. Private lands managed for proper habitat and that are managed for predation more than likely have plenty of birds. The states access to public lands Is still a super small sample in the grand scheme of things. Not only is it small, from what I understand a large amount of the public lands to include some SOAs are long term leases, meaning they don’t have full rights to do as they please, such as burn. If the state offered incentives for timber companies and private landowners to burn and manage habitat I think we would see more people burning and not just harvesting timber and holding. I don’t know if what the incentive would be or how to go about it, but it makes since if the state is truly concerned about the resource.

Why not take a shot at the State agencies??? Not a low blow at all - they deserve it. They are the ones setting regulations based on weak science and theories. They are the ones that say there is nothing else they can do. They are the ones blaming the hunter. They wont do anything about feeding corn, decoys, or habitat management on their own lands. If they are serious about turkeys, they would make the State owned management areas a shining example of turkey management, burned and thinned - be able to take field tours to show off wildlife and habitat management, instead they are poorly managed ground with a few foodplots planted very little different than timber company lands. No regulation on harvest or pressure which they have FULL control over. And 90% of the turkey research that indicates turkey declines comes from State and Fed owned land not well managed or even managed private land. I can tell you that the private land we work with are NOT seeing a turkey decline. Their habitat and predator populations are well managed and the turkeys are doing fine.

If "Private lands managed for proper habitat and that are managed for predation more than likely have plenty of birds." then why are they subject to the lower limits and shortened seasons imposed by the State?

There are PLENTY of "incentive" programs for burning by the Feds but no reason for timber co''s to take advantage of them - too much liability. However, if you care about turkeys (like the State should), that should be incentive enough to burn and trap. Why do you need Momma government to pay for your turkey management.

Our State cares so much about turkeys that we are the only State of all the southeastern States that does not have any ongoing State funded turkey research - literally every State around us is actively involved in cutting edge turkey research funded by the State.

You'll make your biggest strides through increasing nesting and brooding cover. We are covered up with turkeys and haven't done any trapping in years.

If the state spent as much time on educating the public AND demonstrating proper habitat management on public lands, like gobbler said, they’d get a lot better results. All the information being concluded from these later starting dates is NOT supporting their theory. It’s refuting it. Meanwhile, they’re handing out awards for the state’s exemplary example of conservation leaders. It’s pathetic. I have to admit I was on the fence on some of these things years ago when the theories were first presented, but I’ve come full circle understanding they’re grasping at nonsense to correct a problem that is much more likely to resolve itself through gaining public trust again by properly educating the public on sound habitat management actions. They’ve already lost the public’s attention at this point. Gaining it back will be very difficult.

With the current admin they will never gain public trust again

Gobbler and MBrock said what I came here to say. What is the state supposed to do? Let’s start with not slashing season dates and hunter opportunity with no data or fact to back it up. Let’s take a note from Adam Butler and Mississippi, I think they’ve handled it well.

Somebody correct me, but isn’t there a study out there by Dr. Craig Harper in TN that showed that pushing start dates back to coincide with peak nesting had no positive impact on poult recruitment?

I've said it a thousand times I'll say it again if all u kill is longbeards you cannot kill em out. when season started on 15th the majority of the hens had been bred at least once so the gobbler is a surplus bird at that point. I think it ought to be against the law to shoot a jake he is your seed for next year.

look this up



"Occasionally, the eggs of female turkeys will — without any sperm involved — spontaneously develop into embryos and then into baby turkeys (which are always males). This process is called parthenogenesis ."

I don’t know but they didn’t listen. They pushed opening day back two more weeks this year. April 15-May 26. Insane

I've always said that the most important incentive the state can give to landowners is a stable season and limit. I hate that we have already lost a bird from the bag limit, along with the best 10 days of the season, but what is far worse is knowing they aren't done. The director has made it very clear that he wants both reduced a lot more; just looking for anything to justify it.

Turkey management isn't a short term deal, and the uncertainty keeps people from being willing to make a longer term commitment. The result is fewer turkeys.

Maybe you can spread some more light on this since you used to work for them, but why is the state opposed to managing the WMAs similar to how private landowners with lots of turkeys are doing it?

It seems to me that if the state were to thin out multiple areas of timber on all WMAs and get sunlight to the ground to create quality nesting habitat, the profits of cutting the timber should pay for the costs of burning, spraying etc. for many years?

Edit: I think Dr. Craig Harper even spoke about this in a recent podcast. WMA managers can control a lot more acres more efficiently by burning and spraying, and do more for the wildlife, than they could trying to maintain fields and such with a bushhog.

the state is the biggest cheapskate in the world. No matter how low the investment is or how high the return...they ain't spending the money up front.

If they selectively thinned some timber stands they wouldn't be fronting any money, just using those funds. The DCNR does get to keep the money from timber cut on WMAs right? If not, that's another issue that needs addressing.

I seen a forestry guy this morning and he said he was heading to check on some property they had burned on skyline yesterday. They may burn all the time up here but I have never heard of it

The dcnr doesn't own most of the WMAs. They own the one in Barbour county, but I'm not sure what others. Cutting timber is not something they can do on the ones they don't own.

They burn in the bottoms between crop fields and thinned pines. Bad part is 95% of the place is mtns.

I know but he said low gap on the mountain. Jacob’s farm

That’s what I’ve heard as well. The state has tied hands on public, controls zero on private other than regulations. When the issue is out of their control, what do you expect them to do. I guess we should overlook the state level and look at federal incentives for habitat improvement. I know there are several, but they obviously aren’t that good, because not many are taking advantage. And then you have liability.

Ive said a couple things for years and a quick search on my posts on this site would verify it.

If the State cared about turkeys, management areas would be a shining example of how to conduct wildlife management. They should get all the penny loafer biologists out of the office and hand them a pair of boots and a drip torch. They own thousands of acres of management area land, forever wild land and can have an impact on management of much of the National Forest land. That should be enough to show intent.

Why is our State, which used to be the turkey mecca of the US, not participating in wild turkey research

How is our director getting accolades for his dedication to conservation when the opposite seems to be true

Regarding Chamberlains dominant gobbler theory I have always said the season limit was a crock of crap. Even Chuck said it wouldn't matter if the limit was 5 or 50, it won't effect reproduction and poult recruitment. However, I gave the season timing a "possible" for reproduction impact. With the few studies coming out now it appears that delaying opening the season has no impact either.

I know for a fact that the Department was wisely advised to make the changes of lowered limits and delayed season on a few select management areas and national forests to see if it had an effect. They decided to institute it over the whole state so that there was no way to study the effects or lack thereof. Kinda like instituting game check and changing the methods of the previous survey at the same time so no comparisons can be made to past survey results.

Worst administration in my lifetime and they are loosing good employees as a result

If private lands that are well managed (those that care about turkeys) have turkeys as you noted, why would the state lower limits and shorten season's on them? If they are not well managed (the key to having good turkeys) then lower limits and shortened seasons won't help either. If the issue is out of their control then they should stop trying to control it. They should focus on what they can control - the WMA's.

Regarding the Fed cost share - they are HUGLEY popular and tons of folks are taking advantage of them. There are about a million acres prescribed burned in AL. I would guess 20% or so is national forests and I would guess 50% of the rest is under some kind of cost-share. I know all our landowners use it regular. They would do it without it but will take it if the Feds are handing it out.



as of 2023, Forever Wild (owned by the State and managed by DCNR has nearly 300,000 acres. Quite a lot
An additional nearly 70,000 acres owned in management areas
an additional 345,323 acres are Federally owned acreage managed through cooperative agreements with the USFS, USFWS, TVA and COE. They may not own but can certainly impact managememt

Yea, I think they can find plenty of acres they can thin and burn and turn into management showcases - they don't

I understand what your saying gobbler, I’m sure it just boils down to money like everything else. What I’m trying to wrap my head around is the original question, being that populations are decreasing despite years of increases. Years of increases despite little to no habitat change. Seems like more people are actively burning and harvesting timber today than when the population was on the rise. I could be wrong on that.

20 years is the average increasing years after restocking - into unoccupied habitat. After that it tends to fluctuate based on weather, foods, predators, etc, etc. Few years up, few years down. Habitat is the foundation,and also fluctuates over large areas. Some places manage for diversity of habitat types and quality of nesting, brooding cover, etc. These places see little fluctuation. Some places grow large blocks of planted pines, for instance. These areas see WILD fluctuations from year to year and can have many down years in a row. That is the benefit of management. The State making blanket regulation changes based on weak theories does nothing to help, especially when you won't do any research into it. Making do-nothing regulation changes also takes the focus away from finding the real culprit to any decline that may exist. They would do better making management areas diverse, quality habitat that does not fluctuate as much from weather, etc. and regulate the harvest on management areas and leave the rest alone.

Nesting habitat and avoiding predators goes hand in hand. Any other time of the year you can find a hen turkey in the thickest junk you wouldn’t ever think a turkey should be. When it comes spring they will be where the Lord put in their instinct to be to have the best chance to raise. That’s where they can feed/nest and not worry about being ambushed all the time. They want to be able to scratch and pick around for as long as they want to, then pitch up in a safe place and do it again. The lowlands are too unpredictable for nesting sometimes, I see how the the turkeys act to see how much rain we are expecting during nesting season

I was talking to a large landowner/hunter the other day. Big turkey hunter going way back when. Anyways has around 9000 acres they hunt and actively manage. Has very deep pockets so cost is no issue. They have been burning and creating turkey habitat as long as I’ve known of him. They create patchwork cuts and thinning and burn around 1/4 of the property every year. They don’t hire any of it out. They have the experience, resources and equipment at their disposal.

Asked him if it’s he’s been hearing anything, yup but not like it used to be.
Hunting pressure is very low since only a few get to turkey hunt the property
Once again nothing like it used to be

Asked him if he’s seeing much? Yup finally seeing hens again. Always saw gobblers in some numbers but no hens for several years.
Same experience for me 8-10 miles away where I hunted, he tried to actually buy the property I hunted but she turned him down. Offered well above market price too.

Only can think of a few reasons but I’m not in the know. I’d guess predators and or disease.

They do predator management and hogs are few and far between and actively controlled thru trapping and thermals.

They run a lot of cameras, I mean a lot too. They’ve been running camera surveys on a grid since they could build one. They have a ton of data and been keeping it since the 80s or longer. They were practicing QDM before QDMA existed.

His neighbor has several thousand acres of adjoining land and does similar habitat practices.


I guess we’re excited to being some decent sized flocks again, the last few years have been good hatches.

I’ve often wondered if they cycle up and down kinda like ruffed grouse do

I'm curious as to what evidence you have that the population in AL is decreasing? The harvest has been going up for several years now. They told us we had to have GC in order to know what the population is doing, but it seems to me that they are ignoring it. We have always had people declaring the population was going down, but nearly all of that is based on anecdotal observations.

FWIW, I've seen zero evidence of a decline, but that's anecdotal too.

Personal experience over a multitude of properties. They aren’t thick like they use to be with the only thing changing being various habitat improvements. My experience doesn’t represent the entirety of the state nor to i intend for it too. But it definitely mirrors what every one else is saying.

I disagree that "everyone" is saying that. Lots of folks here agree with me that there are more turkeys than ever in many places. I've hunted the same property every year since 1965 and it has as many turkeys now as it's ever had. I have more on one tract that I've hunted for 30 years than has ever been there before, and by a whole lot. But our experiences don't prove much; nobody can enough personal experience to be sure. So that leaves the harvest numbers, and they keep going up.

I don't believe there is any hard evidence to show that the statewide population is going down. The folks who so strongly promoted the research debunked dominant gobbler theory have proven they can't be trusted, so what does anyone have that says population is going down? Nothing

Agreed. Some places have more than ever, some places are down. Is the overall population down as a whole - I believe so since about early 2000's. However, I don't think it is out of the "normal" population fluctuations that one would expect in a wild turkey population. I think the early 2000's population was so high it was abnormal and expected to come down biologically.

Now if only we had a biologist in charge in the department that could understand this

A bunch if yall are short sighted as hell buying into this silly government chit and have zero understanding of human psychology.

Here is what you do at the state level; stop the silly arse negative reinforcement crap with no scientific backing (IE reducing limits and pushing seasons back) and introduce positive reinforcement geared at ACTUALLY addressing the real problem instead (IE you get to start your season on your private land earlier and/or kill a bonus turkey if you provide proof you are working to produce more turkeys in the form of burning, predator management, etc.)

This chit aint rocket science. The hunting community will do the work on the state’s behalf if they will simply partner with them instead of demonizing and punishing them. More freedom and liberty to succeed ALWAYS spawns better results in society, without fail. You live in the best shining example ever (or used to be anyway) in America. Capitalism >>>> Socialism; always has been and always will be.

Depends on perspective..... if we do management they deem adequate they will give us some of our season dates and limits back? I don't disagree but still seems socialistic. I would be for more days and an extra bird or 2 based on acreage impacted. We burned 13,00 acres of understory last year - they should give me 3 or 4 extras

With all this that has been said we're back to square one and Its all on us to improve our hunting lands and increase our herds and flocks regardless of what the state does
Nobody is going to do the job for us and nobody is going to pay us to do it
The satisfaction we will get is when we see our property thriving with the animals we love to hunt so stop whining and NUT up and get the job done

So nothing about the landowner I mentioned?

Why did his turkey population decline? He's been managing for turkeys since the late 80s, it’s his favorite animal to hunt and he’s hunted around the world.
He was somewhat excited that it seems the turkey population is rebounding, especially the hens being seen now.

Increase in raptors, increase in coons, increase in coyotes…..Depending on how they’ve used fire and managed the soil, possible decrease in plant and insect diversity/abundance

They’ve been under guidance by a knowledgeable biologist for years. They’ll do growing season burns once poults are big enough but for the most part after deer season and well before turkey season. Sapling hardwoods have been controlled due to growing season burns and or herbicide as needed
Predators, let’s just say the have had an intense management plan.

I could be way wrong but feeding and disease is what I personally think. I know we’ve turned several turkeys from Jerry’s property years ago that appeared to have blackhead or something similar but test came back inconclusive due to specimen decomp.

What burn interval?......2 year?.....What kind of soil is it generally speaking?

As needed. A study was released a few years back where it was made mention in southern states the rotation needs to be more on 2 yr than 3 yr rotation

Hell they prescribed burn managers too
Some intervals every year until saplings are under control and the. 2-3 depending on habitat either early successional or understory.

Heck man I’m friends with several bios and have over 35k acres in burn experience myself working for a good friend that’s a retired bio. Matt knows him
I’m not gonna mention the landowner and have said more than I should’ve. He’s a friend to a good friend of mine so we speak at times.

Fire return interval should technically be based off of the fertility of the soil and the speed of the plant response….I think most folks look at soil as a fixed variable (which its not) and don’t consider the impacts they are having with their above ground management……That top 6-12 inches or so of organic soil is a main driver of it all in terms of understory plant and insect diversity/abundance….. The difference in 6% and 2% is huge if you're running a deficit long term

If you look at how most people are managing food plots these days they typically burn up all of the organic matter and then in order to have success they rely on rainfall to be just right. The ground doesn’t soak up and hold soil moisture the same so plant production suffers……..your drought years are more prominent and you get a much better plant response in years when rainfall is in abundance…..Take out the organic matter from the soil and you take out a lot of your buffer. You create bigger fluctuation.

Its no different when you mess with the OM% on a big scale….We just had 2 of the wettest years on record a couple years ago and now people are reporting more turkeys…..Maybe the rain supported higher plant productivity…….more food/cover……Like wow, look how great my food plots look when everything lines up just right to make up for my mismanagement.

Not saying this is for sure your problem but its something that is completely overlooked by many. It makes a difference with the outcome you see…..especially when we start talking about soil types that are just naturally poor to begin with. Burning too often…… or maybe too hot…… or too much in the dormant season……..or maybe when KBDI levels are too high…….there’s ways that “just burning” could be having negative impacts when played out over 5….10….15…20 years in the same stands if its slowly impacting and decreasing the OM%.

Once again, our DCNR spends money on everything except for the wildlife.

That’s the problem and why everyone talks past each other here

What you’re seeing versus others. Turkeys are not nocturnal so visual evidence does exist either in person or camera surveys.

I see more turkeys in town than at the farm yet I’ve been told over and over turkeys hate people. These birds like traffic I think. Occasionally folks pull over and call to them while taking videos and pics. Literally strutting on the shoulder mere feet from the traffic. From the singing river bridge over to second street in muscle shoals. At the intersection of woodmont and 72 in Tuscumbia in the fields. To the west a few miles just past the CoOp several more flocks doing great. Down hwy 43 from 72 intersection behind my friends house he hears them gobbling all the time. Even during deer season LOL. I’m sure those are gobbled out by the season opening.

Here’s the anecdotal for me. I’ve driven the same stretch of the trace, 9 miles thru what was once great turkey habitat. I’d see the similar numbers I mentioned previously. It’s a rare day to see a few if any at all these days. Idk 🤷‍♂️

Here’s the kicker, I’ve been driving that stretch for over 20 years. A mix of hardwoods and bottomland field in row crop and hayfields.
Habitat did change thru some of that area with heavy timber harvest occurring simultaneously. The replanted pines been burned several times now so it’s getting back but the hardwood drains were left be.

Dude you think too much

After the burns they look for response, primarily forbs are what they’re wanting. If they don’t get that response I’m sure they change their burn schedule. Since they manage timber stands for habitat they have mixed stands and open canopies interspersed where they can. They have early successional that is burned during growing season to get those forbs growing and killing saplings.

You simply glossed over where I mentioned they’ve had a biologist looking over everything plus they kinda know what they’re doing. Have very deep pockets to get anyone they need to look and answer questions. lol.

The landowner lives for turkeys, deer are a secondary concern and they’re strictly managed. This guy hunts and fishes year around. If they’re not off on any hunt they’re down there working on habitat.

Look at seasons and when changes occurred

Southern zone, 2005-2007 March 20 opener moved to March 15. Why? Data or hunter sentiment?
Northern zone, a few years later April 1 to weekend before April 1. And hy? Data or hunter sentiment?

I mention the March 20 versus 15 deal because if you use the original March 20 date then the new March 25 date is only 5 days and not 10 which is substantial. I assume that’s why the March 15 is being clung to, well that and that’s been the opener for some sampling’s as they’ve been turkey hunting.

Colbert and Lauderdale many many years ago open earlier and seasons were closed. Colbert for around 10 years and Lauderdale
For 25 years.

When Colbert reopened it was April 8 til end of April. Early 90s
Moved to April 1.

I don’t doubt the restocking boom, explains a lot where I hunted.

I get y’all that have a stable or increasing numbers, I’d be doing exactly what yall are saying.

......and yet you're on here telling us they cant figure out why the turkey population has declined......

Cartervj……..I’ll make you a deal…..Ask them how their management practices have impacted SOM (soil organic matter) levels over the years and if you get any answer other than a hazed over look with “I don’t know”….I’ll buy you lunch next time you’re in the Auburn area.

They haven’t sterilized their soils so to speak.

Does any one have an idea why the population is down across the entire southeast. It was that a big ole lie? Why so much more in areas while other areas not so much. Is it all simply management practices or lack there of?

There likely isnt one single smoking gun……Instead its likely numerous factors that are driving overall lower turkey populations across the board…….Some areas are being impacted more than others…..some maybe not at all……As you move around the landscape the limiting factors for population growth likely changes……There’s just not this one boogey man out there that the Scooby Doo gang is going to unmask like everyone is searching for.....There also probably isnt a real "crisis" going on like its getting labeled as.

As far as the large private property you're talking about.......If we take away predators then I would think that food density should take over as the limiting factor.

CNC, I seriously doubt the large growing season fires that shaped the southeast forest hundreds of years ago checked the soil’s organic matter before burning over hundreds of thousands of acres. And they burned with frequent occurrence. Records indicate numbers of quail and turkeys we can’t comprehend nowadays.

We had numbers when i was a kid that can't be comprehended now. We also had every old timer killing hawks and owls, trapping was worth money and was also alot of coon hunting back then. You never found roadkill back then because it was worth money!

Let me reiterate that I said they burned as needed. If they had achieved what they ante they slowed the timeframe down. Why burn it if it’s not needed. The only sections I’ve seen them burn every year is road frontage in a very wet bottom and rarely does it burn thru. They strip it till tired and move on. Doubt much is accomplished except maybe some nesting bugging habitat. Do see ones in that area every spring and summer.

No kidding. That’s my agenda is to understand what the heck happened. Ducks fall into that category too. Two things have occurs amongst ducks and turkeys. Hunter participation has increased tenfold. Habits have changed and maybe not for the better. What I’m seeing is hunters are not happy except those with the deepest of pockets. Duck hunting has just about gotten unaffordable for the average Joe. The places in Arkansas that consistently do very well pour a crap ton of money into their properties.
It has become a status symbol and that’s the last thing I’d want, of course if I win the lottery that may change.

I know the majority of it is habitat based but still there are areas that shouldn’t support turkeys but they appear to be doing well.
The most quail I’ve seen are on a Robert Trent Jones golf course. Not a managed property for quail.

“Food density” is driven at a base level by soil and the soil food web……

I think its making a big assumption to think that we’re managing fire and the understory in the same manner as what has happened in the past……especially considering we no longer have herds of grazing animals roaming these stands….

Even still though, whether we are or whether we aint……I’d still think that its important for a “land manager” to understand the difference in 2% SOM and 6% SOM and how much of their potential that’s impacting instead of just saying “Well none of that is even worth knowing and paying attention to…..We’ll just assume that its good”

Never said it wasn’t worth paying attention to, but I seriously doubt the percent of SOM has anything to do with turkey absence, presence, or nest success.

SOM comprehension goes up, deer and turkey thrive, corn is banned, cell cameras disappear, deer bubbles pop (or don’t pop… I’m still not sure if the bubbles were good or bad), gas goes down, trump is president again, and the office gets back on tv for at least 3 more seasons.

It’s all about the soil.

Don’t forget about the cows…… or the buffalos…..or maybe we just high fence the whole 9000 acres and introduce some exotic grazers.

Carbon is the first link in the chain…..its what drives the soil food web…..which produces all the soil critters the turkeys like to scratch for….worms, grubs, snails, crickets, grasshoppers, etc..etc……..The amount of carbon in the soil dictates the amount of life in the soil. It also dictates which plants will grow and which wont…..As you move from 1% organic matter in the soil to 6% organic matter the species composition changes……You pick up a lot more diversity and get more beneficial seed producers and flowering pollinators which draw in more insects…..All this turkey food that is being produced is being driven by carbon at the base level…….

They got to make it out of the egg before any of this is relevant.

I think you are making the assumption that food quality is a limiting factor for turkey populations, and I seriously doubt that it is true in Alabama. It is for deer, and you can tell by the body weights and other things that deer are a lot healthier in some parts of the state vs others, and I think there is validity to your soil ideas when talking about deer.

I don't think it limits turkeys at all. I have killed big, healthy, 20+ pound gobblers on some of the worst soil in the state on the old Coosa wma. I've killed others on some of the best soils in the Blackbelt that looked exactly the same. I don't think poor quality food plots will affect the health of turkeys. If they aren't happy, they will just go somewhere else.

This originally got started by cartervj talking about the large private landowner and saying that they had an extensive predator removal program…..to which I said, if you remove predators as being a limiting factor to population growth then the next thing in line that will eventually limit how many turkeys are on a particular property is food……I think that is true…….Take out predators and let the population multiply and at some point you will reach a point where food limits population density…….I’m not just making this stuff up about soil…..If you were on the old QDMA forum then you saw dgallow teaching about it for years.

PCP…..it isnt saying that the turkeys are going to starve to death…..its saying that cartervj’s private landowner can take out the predators and produce as many turkeys as he wants to but at the end of the day he’s only going to hold the amount he can feed. The excess will go futher and do other.

What dictates the amount of food being produced?.....At the very most basic level the chain begins with soil carbon.

I understand what you are saying and I think it's absolutely right for deer. I just don't think it is for turkeys. I've never seen a place where I thought turkeys had exceeded the carrying capacity of the land. It might be possible, but I've never seen it. I've seen places have a whole lot of turkeys, but they still had plenty to eat. I think the social structure of turkeys keep it from ever happening. They will just spread out further if they start to get too concentrated, even when they have lots of food.

This is just my experience and not based on research, so I could be wrong. But I don't think the quality of your plots will ever have much to do with their survival. Don't get me wrong - having plenty of food will help keep them on your property, but it doesn't have much to do with their survival. About the only way that can happen is you can hold them on your land so that they don't go somewhere else and get killed. I like to see them spend the winter on my place so that they don't get shot by deer hunters who don't mind breaking the law, but the effect of that is pretty minimal.

I'm not knocking your theories on soil; I just don't think it applies to turkeys. They can survive most anywhere in AL that they aren't overly pressured by people.

What PCP said^^^^^^^^^^^X100.

So after thinking about it, I propose an imaginary study.

Take my 400 acres and put a high fence around it; not a deer high fence, but a turkey one. How high would it need to be to keep them in? Let's say 300'. Also put in a cross fence to divide into 2 parcels as exactly alike as possible. Then put in the turkeys.

The most I've ever seen has been a few winter groups of around 50 birds. That's not normal, but let's use 50 for the study. Put 10 in one side and 40 in the other. Recapture them after a year and weigh them. My prediction - no difference at all in the weights of the 2 groups. No way do I average having 50 on the place, but I think they would live just fine.

Next year put 10 in the control side and 100 in the other. Would results be different? I doubt it, even with 100. There is some number where weights would go down, but I don't know what it would be. It would require a whole lot of them, and it would be a number that would never occur naturally.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my thinking. I'm going fishing; a good day to all!

"I think the social structure of turkeys keep it from ever happening. They will just spread out further if they start to get too concentrated, even when they have lots of food." --Quoted from PCP.

That is a simple, yet profound statement.

And Pwyse's reference to The Office earlier, lol. Y'all keep it entertaining. And I am learning from all the Biologists on here. I am not being sarcastic either. Really, there is a good bit to learn about land and wildlife. I appreciate the input.

I’m guessing that “food” for turkeys is a complex ordeal….They eat a lot of different stuff and probably have time periods where they seek out certain things to meet certain needs…..I’m guessing that spring and summer revolve highly around bugs and insects as a main staple…..My thoughts are that they are going to spread out and cover larger areas seeking out specific food sources at specific time periods. Why is it they move to different areas in the winter?? Isnt that about food?? Better areas to scratch for food found in the soil maybe?? Once I turned my test field around to very fertile black soil that was full of diverse plants and tons of insect life, I had a hen show up and start nesting right in the middle of it…..Now that very well could have just been coincidence but I don’t think it was…..I think she was seeking out that ideal spot because of the structure and the food productivity.

I wish I had more picture of this property because it represented the extreme bad end of this soil health spectrum…..It was pretty much bare of any topsoil across the majority…..About the only thing you had growing was a little bit of sparse grass…..However, you could look around and spots where vegetation had gotten a foothold and formed a little bit of decayed OM over the soil you had more diverse plant growth…..It was easy to see the impact SOM was having on plant growth. This land probably had 1% SOM across most stands if that........Soil is not completely fixed…..the base component is but the top soil is not…..we manage it and it matters. I’ll say this again regardless of any of this……It isnt that hard to monitor your SOM levels…..just an afternoon walk around your property with a shovel and your eyes can tell you a lot …..But if you sample the stands across your property and you’re only running 1-2% organic matter on average then you’re selling your potential way short.

Back to the way this relates to the question cartervj presented though about the 9,000 acre property that has an extensive predator program and has still seen decreases…….Why?......My guess is that its food related ……What else would be the logical next option?

I’m betting if they manage for turkeys and deer they have plenty of food. It’s probably got to do with a couple of bad hatches or something. Things like that are cyclical and they happen. I bet soon they have a couple of good hatches and they are booming again.

The property I posted the picture of is being managed for deer and turkeys too…..Just because someone is running fire through it every couple of years doesn’t mean they’re paying any attention to the topsoil…….Like I said before, ask most folks how their past management has impacted the SOM levels and they’ll likely not know what you’re talking about much less have an answer…..despite it being one of the most important variables being managed. If you want to truly maximize the lands output then you would start with maximizing the soil’s potential. You would have a goal of maximizing the SOM levels and the soil life……Once you understand that then its easy to see why you want a herding grazer involved.

Do red deer move around in big herds?? That'd be cool to introduce as the grazer.

They got deep pockets so they probably just plant stuff and supplemental feed. That’s what I’m talking about.

Well, I don't think it's food related at all. Ultimately, it's poult related. They stopped producing poults for some reason, and based on what Carter has posted I think it's likely that it was just natural. Turkeys were restocked in his area after a decades long absence and the population boomed to a level that was unnatural and unsustainable. Everyone thought it was normal, but it wasn't. The population went down. Hunters and landowners demanded that the state "do something" to return them to the glory days, but they were asking for the impossible. Now the population is reaching a level that might be sustainable, and it wasn't due to any new laws - it was just the natural thing to happen.

Food is relevant as far as as holding turkeys at a specific place. Turkeys are like every other creature and want the easiest life possible. There is NOTHING that can compete with a pile of corn. No matter how good your habitat might be, if your neighbors are feeding corn the turkeys will live with them.

My belief is that food is mostly irrelevant in most of Alabama when it comes to turkey survival. If they are able to survive the first couple of months or so of life, they will find plenty of food to eat. They may have to range further, but they are not going to starve to death. If something happens to your habitat, like a very large area being clearcut, your turkeys will leave you, but they won't die; they'll just go somewhere else. The limiting factor on turkeys is always poult recruitment.

Yep. Food is not the issue. It’s a non factor on overall population growth or decline.

Reread this PCP and think about what you’re saying….especially the parts I underlined…….Why is it unsustainable if food doesnt matter? Are you joining Matt with the it happened “just because” theory??

There’s just no way I can wrap my head around the idea that food is a non-factor to a bird that spends 90% of its life walking around pecking stuff. As it concerns poult recruitment, how critical is it for a poult to get the proper diet in the first few months?? Could that be a factor?.....What about hens producing less eggs because of not getting what they need?? All food is not created equal in terms of proper nutrients during critical time periods…..

This idea that food just isnt playing a factor in anything just doesn’t make any sense at all to me……It would make more sense to believe that maybe we just arent connecting the dots.

Wouldn’t the abundance of insect life impact the growth rate of the poults? I remember walking out in my test field some mornings and being kinda in awe by how much stuff was buzzing and flying and crawling…..I remember thinking….”Damn a turkey wouldn’t even have to try to catch food in all of this”………How efficient is a young poult at catching food during the first few weeks and months during that critical time period when its needing to add weight?.....Isnt it a lot about "probability" and opportunity??.... Maybe having places like my test field where they don’t have to try makes a difference….not just food plots but on a stand level

There's going to be another layer of this ^^^^^^ onion as well.....The more the poults have to move around the more susceptible they will be to predation....Also I’m guessing there’s a certain size that poults reach where predation rates drop way off…….If it takes 10 weeks to reach that size instead of 8 weeks…..then that's increasing the amount of time they're susceptible as well......higher food/insect density = less time and space = less predation

I think that idea is legit. If soil health is having anything to do with it, it seems to me that it would be through better habitat for poults.

I am not certain, and neither is anyone else. It's just that it happens, and happens everywhere they are successfully restocked.

My theory is that this cycle is primarily due to the way the predators learn to catch poults and break up nests. It's unsustainable for the hens to have such great nesting success for a long period of time. It's not that they starve; the predators learn to deal with them.

CNC
Research why Colbert and Lauderdale turkey seasons were closed back in the late 70s and 80s. Colbert was reopened much sooner than Lauderdale. Look at the season openers and changes prior to those counties closing. I don’t know where to find the documentation these days. A friend wrote a paper about that and will ask him if he still has any copies. He used data that was gathered during that time frame and prior.
When he came to work at Thomas wildlife the season opener was April 8 and ran for 3 weeks. He moved here in the late 80s

Why did the turkey population decline back then. The use of fire wasn’t even on the radar.

I’d venture preacher is closer to the answer than your scorched earth theory. I’ve not seen anything around here that looks like your pics.

There’s no scorched earth theory……There’s simply the statement of fact that SOM% matters and most folks don’t know if they’re impacting it or not…..much less whether they have it maximized. “Habitat” begins 12-18 inches below ground.

Taking the chart a step further......

When y’all want to compare what we’re doing now versus what occurred a long time ago…….this ^^^^^ is one place where you run into a big difference in the variables at play……We used to have herding “grass managers” roaming the landscape. They took a lot of the grass fuel and converted it into organic fertilizer which made soil life boom, lessened fire intensity, impacted specie composition, impacted stand structure, stimulated the seed bank with hooves, etc……Not having the herding grazer on the landscape to help manage this carbon cycle changes the dynamic a good bit and lessens your overall potential. That portion of the "grass" they're turning into fertilizer just gets burned.

According to that video I just watched, all the American chestnut trees dying probably started the decline in turkeys. Changed the soil. SOM went down. SOM awareness went down. Soil changes made a difference in CNCs charts. Also all those trees dying caused a change in the climate with the carbon dioxide levels changing. Causing a rainy day some 50 something years ago. On that rainy day, since he couldn’t work, a certain man stayed home with his wife. We all know what happens on rainy days. Chucky was conceived, 50 something years later we lose 10 days of turkey season. All thanks to the American Chestnut dying out, dominant gobblers, soil SOM… it’s all connected. Blame it on the Chinese chestnut for starting the decline.

Keep preaching CNC… one day the light will come on for these guys.

This lack of there being a herding grazer involved anymore is something that makes me a little suspect of our use of fire over time…….This herding animal that was on the landscape was helping to build the soil as it moved around…..It was spurring on the fertility and production…..Without it you’re handicapped and building soil over time becomes a more difficult task with fire as your only tool. Over years and decades it would be really easy to go another smidge backwards and another smidge backwards without there being that other tool to help it go forwards…..

Lets just say you went in one year and maybe burned with the soil too dry and it got way hotter than you meant for it to and you really burned down into the organic soil across an entire stand …..the soil habitat that supports the soil food web above got zapped…..Without the poopers to come around “inoculating” and fertilizing, it could take a while to build that back…..especially if you just come back in again 2 years later with another round of fire. That’s kinda what is happening on the property in the picture I posted….The topsoil has been degraded down to the bare bones and there’s nothing to get it out of the hole and move it forward……Without the herding grazers about the best you could try to do would be minimize fire as much as you could tolerate to build up some surface OM……Continuing to hit it every two years at this point is just burning up any chance you got of covering the soil…..

My point being that with fire alone it would be a lot easier to go backwards than forwards over time. Again, that doesn’t mean that I believe everyone has created a scorched Earth scenario…..but I do believe its true that very few are aware of whether they have or haven’t had an impact...Its very naïve just to make the assumption that it doesn’t matter and everything is all good. I assure you that it matters…Whether everything is “all good” can only be determined by folks taking some measurements

The biggest point I’m trying to get y’all to recognize is that you are 100% for sure…..without a doubt…. take it to the bank…..promise it to your mama…… on this SOM% spectrum somewhere in every stand……I showed a picture of the extreme end so that the concept would be recognized……Most stands are not going to be on the extreme end though……You may just be on the low or very average end…….and you don’t know if you are or if you aint…..or seem to even care to find out…….All the while your greatest asset to overall potential is possibly being lost……You may be sitting there at 1.7% OM across your place and you don’t even know…..I can go ahead and assure you that your food plots are most likely that low.......

I know I got my test field to 6% and it was still growing and getting deeper and it changed the whole dynamic of everything with that field……just completely different growing conditions….. different plant communities……insect communities….their adundance…… What if you took the SOM on stand levels to 6% or greater instead just a food plot?? ……That is the true top of the mountain for productivity. I don’t really think you cant achieve it without grazers though

If stands are being impacted then you’re most likely going to see it having greater negatives effects in upland areas and deep sands due to the impact its having on soil moisture …..Lack of SOM is just compounding issues in situations that are already naturally dry…..Areas like Enon and the old Midway Plantation would be prime places to look for such happening as that area is built on top of a sand pit and gets a lot of fire……

I think you are over estimating the importance of food plots in relation to turkeys. I won't say they are meaningless, but I don't think they have a lot to do with turkey numbers or health. What's far more important is the rest of the habitat. I haven't found anything as effective as fire in keeping a pine stand decent turkey habitat. Leave it out, and it's easy for the understory to become sweetgum saplings, and that isn't good for turkeys of any age.

I don't doubt for a second that we would have a lot more turkeys if we restored the great longleaf forest and covered it up with bison, but I don't see those things happening.

Fire and traps is the answer!

^^
Yea

And health on the fields is geared more for the deer

Trapping coons, possums, and coyotes has been a God send for our property. We have double the gobblers we once had. Maybe even triple.

So there’s actually a little more to it than just SOM…….Here’s something else that’s a problem for some folks……Again I’m using an extreme here to represent the concept while many stands may suffer from the same thing but to a lesser degree…..The stand below is not just out of balance from a grass to broadleaf ratio…..The carbon to nitrogen ratio is also likely out of whack as well. Proper decomposition needs a balanced mix of carbon and nitrogen no different than how a carburetor balances fuel and oxygen…..

This field is flooded with carbon which means the soil cycling from the chart above is probably pretty stagnant……The cycle isnt going round and round like it should…… This end product is not really that productive for anything other than being used as cover and even still its not the proper plant or stand structure you want ……You just cant imagine how thick the grass really is until you try to walk through it...Look at the bank of the creek and you can get some sense of the thickness.... What this field really needs is a dormant season cow herd run across it……Trample and poop….trample and poop…..crank up the soil…..stimulate the seed bank…….change the stand structure…..spread a little clover behind them…..Maybe even bring the cow herd back in later in the growing season…..Maybe even run a growing season fire through it……Anything other than just another dormant season fire like it probably keeps getting….. Fire is good……..Using it wrong is not…..This area would be way more productive as a more diverse native prairie…. Ironically this field borders right up to a neighboring cattle farm.

This is blackbelt soil for reference…….How many of these hunting properties in the black belt already have a “buffalo herd” living right next door??

Not to get too complicated with it but now lets say this landowner is shooting a bunch of does because he says he doesn’t have enough food for the amount of deer…..The picture above you have all cover and virtually no food……Before we start talking about having to shoot dozens of deer because we cant feed them…..Lets examine the balance of food to cover and see if we cant remedy the problem there first…. "Grass" is really only supposed to comprise about 30% ish of the stand..... Can you imagine the amount of prime food that could be grown in this field where this isnt any now……If we're holding more deer than we can feed then why not take it a step further and convert this whole field to shin high "food"?? A lot of these places that are hollering about over population are growing way more grass (cover) than broadleafs (food) due to frequent dormant season burning over and over

Moving on down the rabbit hole…….

The main food source supporting rodents is grass and grain seed………Rodents are the main food source of turkey predators like hawks, foxes, snakes, coyotes, and bobcats……How many excess rodents are we growing in our out of balance grass stand above??.....How is this landowner impacting turkey nesting/ poult rearing success by burning and releasing this rodent hoard in Feb and March just prior to nesting?? The broader point again here being that when you’re sitting around scratching your head pondering over why the outcome is what it is……I think there’s deeper things to consider past just fire, fire, fire……..