April only - 3 bird proposal

Dr. Lemme made a motion yesterday at the CAB meeting to move the dates of turkey season to April 1 to May 1 and reduce to 3 bird limit. Chuck Sykes was not in attendance (isn't that his job?). Motion was tabled until the Feb meeting. I would expect a vote then to put this in play.

can we email him our opinions?

Can't do that. 4/1/21 is on a Thursday. That isn't fair to the folks who can only hunt the weekends. Or at least that is the reasoning they used to screw us out of starting on the 15th and tried to pacify us with 3 day on the back end when it's hot as hell.

Maybe it's ironic they want to open it on April Fool's Day.

Fk em

Lease prices and pressure are already out of control in Mississippi. These type of changes not only hurt the hunting in Alabama, but the neighboring states too.

Ain't gonna push me into neighboring states. Just gonna make me an outlaw.
Well.... More of an outlaw

If u cut the bird limit - at least move it back to March 15 start - 4/1 is at the heart of henned up part of season

what were his reasons for doing this?

Who can remember when we just looked when the season started and hunted accordingly without pissing and moaning about everything.

Cause chucky can and wants to

Who can remember pre chuckie????

I used to do that before they put an arrogant asswipe loudmouth in charge.
Now I do whatever the hell I please I wish Chuck would come catch me in person.

Chuck Sykes was not in attendance (isn't that his job?).


Are you sure?

Taking away March hunting for anything below Hwy 80 would be about the most asinine regulation in AL hunting history. Not sure I’d want to be associated with a move that dumb.

It should start March 10th around here.

Me. Loved them Wednesday openers!

Dr. B

**Who is Dr. Lemme?
I’ll say this and “Lemme” make one thing clear. I do not want anymore changes!!

Unless something changed, and it may have, for several years the Board typically would not take voting action at the first meeting of the year on something carried over from the prior year.

Part of this was to prevent someone mentioning something at one of the meetings, including the third or final meeting, and then five, six, seven months later when no one is thinking about it have a vote and pass it. Doing so would catch everyone off guard and not give the public much (or any) chance to learn what was being proposed or discussed so they could attend the second meeting (usually in April) and/or third meeting. It can be argued that "we discussed it in (whatever month) and it was made public, and anyone could've contacted us since then."

Maybe so, but memories are short. Any of y'all remember something discussed in their February meeting? Or the last meeting in 2019? I'll bet not. The first meeting for years was and probably should be little more than administrative, procedural and a table-setting of sorts for the next meetings unless a vote is legitimately needed. And if something is drastic enough to have a "we MUST HAVE a vote now!" consideration, the Commissioner could do it by order. The CAB supposed to be a conduit between the public and DCNR.

What should happen IMO is a change in the law to have at least quarterly meetings of the Board, if not five or six a year. The Board had two meetings for years before a third was added in the mid-2000s. If my memory serves correctly, 49er used to say that by wording of the legal statue they are to have only two meetings a year.

I'm all for more public meetings of the Board as long as they're done legally. If that means changing the statute by Legislative action, so be it. Moving them around the state and having them more frequently would provide more transparency (maybe) for the public.


As for the turkey proposal, if it's being made now it's already being discussed and something that someone wants. The Board's proposals don't just come out of left field.

Dr. Lemme is Director of the Alabama Cooperative Extension System and an Ex-Officio member of the board, along with Gov. MeeMawa and Rick Pate, Commissioner, Department of Agriculture and Industries


They don't list emails on this list of the Board members and other Board info:

https://www.outdooralabama.com/about-us/conservation-advisory-board

Lemme's info on the ACES site is here:

https://ssl.acesag.auburn.edu/directory-new/u/Gary-Lemme-mgaRFFOz/

Are ex-officio members even supposed to be making motions?

Oh, and Lemme is a Yank too.
A 4-week season is some of them Yank rules. They’ll make it two 10-day splits or some such we start down that road.

I don't ever recall an Ex-Officio member making a formal proposal in the 15ish years I attended the meetings. They're official members of the board, though, and according to the accepted parlimentary Robert's Rules of Order they have full discussion, proposal and voting powers.

See Q2: https://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#2

Speaking of parlimentary procedure, the Board would do good to return to Dan Moultrie's addition many years ago of a legitimate parlimentarian on hand at each meeting to exercise the Robert's Rules of Order, answer questions about procedure, and prevent any mistaken discussion, out-of-order procedures, votes, etc. I think they had one on hand for a couple of meetings but it didn't last.

It's good to have one, IMO, to suss questions about proper procedure. Would be a positive step.

Was he? Y’all are friends right?

I wasn’t there either, but that’s a bold statement. I would put a little money behind saying he was.

98.% of the members on here I would call friends.

I was there, Chuck was in attendance and spoke about the regulation. Motion was tabled until the next meeting, primarily because the regulation book has already been published for this season. It will come up again at the first 2021 meeting

Said it before and here it is again - any new proposed regulation that treats Jackson County and Clarke County as needing the same season dates is pathetic. When is somebody with half a brain gonna realize that doesn’t fit?

We should be able to be a little more creative with such a diverse state in terms of weather and seasonality. It really proves there’s not much thought process behind these latest changes and any proposed change like this.

So 2021 will be the final Alabama style turkey season. I picked a good time to get old. Eliminating all March hunting will do more damage than the limit reduction. How many landowners will go all in on managing their land for turkeys with such a limited hunting opportunity? It will take some time, but the end result will be a lot fewer turkeys.

That's a great point.

Don't forget, landowners in Alabama are committing welfare fraud. You have the audacity to hunt your own land without paying for the license.
How arrogant!!

LEECHY TEAT-SUCKING LANDOWNER!

I agree with this

So True. In April you're gonna lose a weekend or two to bad weather.
So as someone that works a full-time job mon-fri, would I want to spend all that prep time just to hunt 2, maybe 3 weekends?

That makes zero sense, if I lived in south Alabama and they make this change I’d just have to take my chances on getting caught because they will suffer worse than anybody else with that late of a start date!

Lemme voted against the motion to reduce from 5 to 4 last time this issue came up. What's changed? What new data do they have out there? In fact, last time, the motion had a only 3 or 4 supporters, I think.

One of the problems in Alabama is lack of solid scientific data regarding population and harvest rate. Most of the people who read this board won't use Game Check to report turkeys, but then complain that the government doesn't know how many turkeys are out there. Well, if folks reported their kill, we would have a better idea. Far more people use Snapper Check than Game Check. I don't know why. Almost 50 percent of fishermen/women use Snapper Check. Last time I looked, around 10 percent used Game Check to report turkey harvest. It may be better this year. I don't know.

My point is that if we don't want what we perceive to be arbitrary decisions, then (1) we must get more involved, and (2) we must give the CAB and the good, hard-working folks at DCNR the tools and data they need to make decisions. My experience with people at DCNR is that they want to make good decisions based on science, and they want to give hunters the most opportunities they can while ensuring that we have a solid population. We need to do our part to give them the data they need and then participate in the process.

How do you know what percentage use game check or snapper check?

The biggest problem with game check is Chuck Sykes. Everytime he opens his mouth, he's either condescending or arrogant.
He comes off like, "I'm gonna punish all hunters if y'all don't play my game, my way".
That schit don't fly with country boys

Hunting used to be fun.

I agree with you on most of what you said, but I don't know how you got the 10% number. If it's right, that would put the actual harvest numbers in the 100,000 to 160,000 range, and that would mean that AL sure doesn't have a problem with turkey numbers. I think that the number is more like 30 or 40%, but all anyone can do is guess. We had way better numbers in the days of the hunter survey. It seems like some folks here might have predicted this would happen.

I have reported every turkey I've killed since GC started, and I think most of the posters here do the same. I don't think harvest numbers in AL, or lack thereof, have anything to do with it. It started with a couple of biologists from other states who came up with the theory that gobblers being killed too early in the season was affecting reproduction. They post on FB and have gained a lot of followers. I've seen nothing to convince me that the theory is true, but it doesn't have to be true. It's PC to believe it, and no biologist who works for a state can afford to question it if he values his career.

Not only have they been unable to prove that an early season affects poult production, but they haven't proved that legal hunting of spring gobblers affects poult production period. I'm convinced that it doesn't, with the possible exception of areas with very few turkeys. Those places don't need a season at all, and that was exactly the way the previous state administration handled it. If hunting was hurting poult production, then areas that aren't hunted should have way more poults per hen. That would be easy to prove if it were a real effect of hunting, but find a study that shows this. I don't believe that one exists.

It appears that I'm wrong about that. The most recent report says: "reporting compliance with the mandatory Game Check program is only at 42.5%." This is in the annual turkey report (https://www.outdooralabama.com/site...%20Annual%20Turkey%20Report_FinalWEB.pdf). I was relying off what I remember one of the DCNR telling the board years ago as to compliance. Glad to see compliance is up. Of course, the flip side of that is there are apparently a bunch of turkeys being harvested. Better data is still good.

I was thinking the same thing.

Now, now, don't be mentioning the statistically valid, accepted survey that worked for more than 50 years.

We can't have any thoughts about The Before Times. Only what is The Now Times, with mandatory data checking systems and compliance. You shall submit.

GC compliance is reported in the Annual Turkey report. See above. Snapper check numbers were reported to the CAB a year or so ago, and I was there in person. I will try to find the most recent numbers.

CAB meeting minutes state that SC compliance is at 51%. (https://www.outdooralabama.com/sites/default/files/02-29-2020%20CAB%20Minutes%20-%20Condensed_0.pdf)

So, as of now, GC vs. SC are not too far off. Feel bad about my first post now. I should have looked up the numbers rather than use my recollection.

Take out spring break and most kids will get little opportunity to hunt. It's important to get our kids involved. I don't care how much they limit the adults, but don't take what little time kids have to turkey hunt away from them. I have 2 boys at home and I assure you if they can only go a few times a season, they aren't going to give a rats ass about turkey hunting or the turkeys.

Maybe these data have something to do with the changes proposed:

2020 Season Totals

16,651 gobblers total harvest reported to Game Check

Private land: 15,228

Public land total: 1,423

WMA: 631

Federal: 401



2019 Season Totals

10,854 gobblers total harvest reported to Game Check

Private land: 9,875

Public land: 979

that's a big swing.

Population of species = who knows?
Number killed = 100% reported
Population remaining = who knows?

Killing more birds is a good thing. I’m not even sure how to spin that negative. They were gobblers, not hens.

So where’s the number for how many we had before those were killed? What is the magic number they are looking for to justify dropping the limit? I’m sure there are folks that don’t use game check but I also know several people that buy license every year and sometimes never kill a thing, are they just assuming that everyone that buys a license is killing stuff and not reporting it? I haven’t been turkey hunting near as long as several on here but in my experience the numbers are about the same in the 3-4 counties I hunt, some years are better than others but I haven’t seen a drastic decline. I will never understand how counting dead turkeys is a way of determining what shape the population is in

I lease just to turkey hunt. The food plots are planted with turkeys in mind as much as deer. Varmint trapping is geared at least as much toward getting nest robbers as fawn killers. I do report all harvests. My turkey numbers were strong when I got the place and are getting better. And now in just a couple of years, your gonna cut the season from 47 days to 30 days. Guys will either say screw it or will become outlaws. With boating and fishing ramping up, its going to make for a busy spring for the wardens.

My response will be more of a combination of the two

I have read those estimates they put out on GC compliance, but I've never seen them discuss their methodology for arriving at those numbers; do you know?

The only way I can think of would be to compare GC numbers to some other system that measures the harvest. I've seen nothing to indicate they still do the hunter survey; does anyone know? I have heard rumors of a telephone survey, but never seen that confirmed by the department. If they can confidently state the % of compliance with GC, then they have to have some other system for measuring the harvest, and if they have that, then why do they need GC? Many of us have believed from the start that GC was mainly just an enforcement tool.

Harvest numbers are not perfect for estimating populations, but it's always been one of the best tools we have, especially when you use the same methodology over many years. Things like weather can skew the results of a single season, but population trends should show up in harvest numbers. Of course, since Chuck publicly said that the hunter survey was "worthless", it's hard to see how they could use it now to determine GC compliance.

Reducing the season days and the limit because the GC harvest was up 50% this past season kind of proves that this has nothing to do with the science.

It makes no sense to start season later than March 15 in Baldwin County.

I would consider the 2020 season an anomaly due to higher hunter effort days. COVID meant many folks were off work and had more time to hunt turkeys. More hunters in the woods for more days resulted in a higher harvest for the 2020 season. Comparing 2019 results and 2020 results is apples to oranges.

I didn't real all this thread but I think most seasons, at least recently, my birds are pretty much done but the middle of April. If they want to do 4 weeks I don't know about that but I would at least keep the start date in March.

There are multiple ways to estimate a turkey, fish, deer's, etc. population. Obviously every bird, fish, deer etc. can't be counted in the wild. These stock assessments are done through multiple different models and sampling types, with each model being tweaked, improved, as science gets better and science/technology allows sampling techniques to improve. There are generally accepted two different ways to gather data. One is based on what I would call harvest rates - examine how many turkeys, deer, fish were taken, their size (if fish), vs. how many hours, days, etc. it took to catch/kill. Then estimate the number or stock of game/fish. Another is non-harvest data - gathered by actually counting fish/game in the wild over a certain area or areas and estimating the population. In fisheries mgt, it's called fisheries-dependent data vs. non-fisheries dependent data. Google it.

In my opinion, fishery/game managers often depend too much on harvest rates vs. effort (time). In fisheries management, it's called fishery-dependent data. More non-harvest dependent data is needed. The reason non-harvest data is not used as often is because it's more expensive, it's more labor-intensive, and it takes a concerted effort over many years to gather. Arguably, it's more accurate, however, or at least allows a manager to provide more accurate assessments - especially when it comes to fish.

In an ideal world, for harvest data, they would like to look for trends - is the harvest going up with the same or fewer hours being spent to harvest more (probably an indicator that the stock is doing well), or is the harvest going down with more hours spent trying to find the turkey, deer, fish (probably an indicator of stock decline).

I don't know exactly how they do the estimates in Alabama. The "Full Fans and Sharp Spurs - Wild Turkey Report" has some information in it. Apparently, they use both types of data - harvest, and non-harvest data. The last in-depth analysis I've seen on what data they gather and the estimated turkey population was in 2015 in a wild turkey report. Said we had 500,000 turkeys. I've seen quotes from DCNR folks saying that's slipped to 400,000, but no actual figures. I suppose we could just ask them, and they would tell us. If you want to know, send the Commissioner a polite email, and I bet someone will respond.

Troy can tell you about that population estimate on turkeys back when he was working. I think the acronym for it is WAG, but I'm not sure what that means.

damnitt Al, get a grip

I'll tell you how the DCNR did it in 1980...they called me and asked me how many deer/turkey/rabbits/skwerls were in Hale Co. True. Asked every other LEO GW in the state the same damn thing, then juggled the numbers and came up with the official numbers. Pretty damn scientific if ya ask me.

I watched a show, some time ago, but I can't remember what it was
Anyway, the narrator says, "there's 1.2 million rabbits in Kansas". Said it as if it was a proven fact.
I'm like, who the hell is counting rabbits in Kansas??? And how???

same way I did Mark, snatched a number out of my ass.

More than likely it is purely a function of Covid 19 and people being home and not at work.

Let’s say we know exactly how many turkeys there are in the state and the number of gobblers killed every year, to the very last one. At what point would reducing the per person limit of gobblers from 5 to 3 be needed? What’s that expected to accomplish?

That could have had some effect, but there were a lot of us saying before the season that we had a record number of turkeys and I thought the season proved that. I can tell you Covid didn't have any impact on my hunting, nor that of anyone who I talk with about turkey hunting. It probably got more beginner types into the woods, but those folks usually save more than they kill. Chuck had the nerve to say that we killed more because the season started later. Does that make any sense?

Liberalism/brainwashed HORSECHIT.

So you're in the government ? Who'd a thunk it?

Government don't need to know how many turkeys we have.
All they need to do is stay out of the way, and let the landowners and hunters manage the turkey population like we been doing for decades.

I'm not in the government. Never have been. Someone will have to explain to me how science is liberalism/brainwashed horsechit and then come up with a better way to manage our wildlife. last time we just left people to their own devices with no rules, we overhunted deer and turkeys and ducks till they weren't worth hunting anymore. I don't want to go back to those days.

You Shall Bend The Knee!!

Landowners are better stewards of the resources than government.
Of course chucky doesn't believe that because landowners don't have to purchase the king's license.

If you don’t have scientific knowledge enough to understand how statistically-valid sample sizes, as utilized in the hunter surveys the state successfully used for decades, and then subsequently advocate for requiring 100% reporting of harvest data via this current gestapo game-check government waste of unnecessary dollars bullchit, then you need to just shut up. Because you sound like a good-idea fairy, decisions based on feelings instead of facts, bleeding-heart liberal idiot. It aint required to determine accurate harvest estimations and corresponding trends accordingly. Period.

Let's see - count every turkey killed (game check), or "assume" you have a valid sample size and method (hunter survey). Which one would give you a more accurate description of how many turkeys are killed? Obviously the first one. But then again, calling people idiots and game check gestapo-style is just easier. I love how people just immediately go to name calling rather than have a rational discussion. And no, I do not favor making decisions based on feelings and ignoring facts. that would not be smart. Nor am I some bleeding-heart liberal. Discussing it here is probably pointless. Just show up at the next CAB meeting and let them know. That's the only discussion that matters.

I assume this means you are against seasons or bag limits of any kind whatsoever. Let the landowner set his/her/its (in the case of a corporation) own season, bag limit, etc?

Again....zero understanding of the science and mathematics associated with statistically-valid sampling, confidence intervals, etc. If you did understand it, you would logically advocate differently (especially if you claim to be conservative whatsoever). Don’t feel alone though, Chuck Syke’s stupid arse doesn’t understand it either and he is in charge of all of it.

I think these pointy headed jackasses that want to arbitrarily change rules, limits, seasons, etc. need to get their butts out of their offices and hit the woods.
Apparently, we had a excellent hatch year in my neck of the woods. I was mowing roads and food plots yesterday and saw more turkeys than I've seen in a good while.
Making changes just for the sake of change never works out well

We have had great hatches two years in a row in the northern part of the state.
The one two years ago was amazing. More hens and 2 year old gobblers than you could shake a stick at last year. I’m really looking forward to next spring. If they open it up on April 1st, I will really enjoy hunting em by myself about the last 10 days of March.

I’ll go with ya! I hate for you to be out there alone and something bad happen

Come on my friend! Should be plenty of room!!! 🤣👍🏻

It never ceases to amaze me how few grasp this. What’s more, I’m pretty sure that Chuckie and company still have to sample to correct for noncompliance bias. Either that or they pull it out their rear when estimating reporting compliance rates.

This smells of follow the money

If you a question about today's DCNR, the answer is MONEY.
Whatever the question, the answer is MONEY.

No name calling from me - I've been trying to explain to folks for the past 20 years that the hunter survey was scientifically valid within the margin of error. It didn't give you the exact number, but it was close enough to make good decisions on setting seasons and limits. Every branch of science uses random sampling, and I never saw any reason to believe that we weren't getting good numbers.

But for a system like GC to give usable numbers, you need every hunter to participate, and that's just not gonna happen.

But the issue with the hunter survey from the dcnr point of view was that it did nothing for enforcement. If your ultimate goal is to cut way back on the season and limits, then you want an enforcement tool, and GC is it. We said this was the goal when it started and it all seems to be right on schedule. But it hasn't passed yet. Write your CAB member and tell him what you think.

Why would this be their ultimate goal unless some science (whether that be GC or valid sampling, I don't care which) supported it? That doesn't make any sense. If the answer is MONEY, then obviously there is more money in having a long season (see, for example, deer season). I just don't see anyone cutting the season short for the sake of cutting the season short, or cutting bag limits just for the sake of cutting bag limits.

Now, whether they actually have ANY scientific reason to cut the season shorter or to cut the bag limit is an extremely valid question. If they have, they haven't bothered to share that with us, other than to say vaguely that populations are down. What's their proof in that? That's what I want to see.

In my area, there seem to be lots of turkeys. This year's hatch seemed to be very, very good. Probably a combination of drier and warmer weather at hatch time. In my area, the weather around hatch time seems to make a huge difference.

They have already proven they don’t make management decisions based on facts or science. They pushed the season back last year “to be fair to weekend hunters”.

I disagree PCP.......You don't need every hunter to participate.....you just need enough to make it a valid sample size and you need about the same amount of folks to participate each year. It becomes nothing more than another sampling method that uses trends for making decisions. For example, as long as roughly 30% of hunters participate each season and that doesn't fluctuate a bunch from year to year.....then the trends are still valid. If harvest numbers remain constant over time then one can say that the population is good enough to sustain that yield

They knew from the start they would never get 100% compliance. It's just their way of insuring they get a good same size while threatening ALL hunters with fines in the process.....just like you're saying.....an enforcement tool

But there is no scientifically valid way to measure this "sampling method", as you call it. There is no way to know whether the harvest increased or whether hunters just reported better. If you are trying to measure 100% of the harvest then you need 100% participation. I will say that it measures the legal harvest, but I don't know how much that is gonna help in managing the resource if more than half the hunters have given up trying to be legal.

Because the ultimate goal of this administration is to make money. You can go back and read what Sykes wrote and said on the radio and see that he wanted to cut the limit and the season almost as soon as he took the job. His view is that a lower limit will give a higher number of hunters a chance to be successful, and that will mean more license sales. If you are really interested, look on the Big Daddy Lawler web page and find the interview he did with him and a nwtf guy 6 or 7 years ago.

True…..I bet they have some way of gauging it using historical success rates or something…..The only thing that really makes it differ from the old survey is that you’re not getting a response from folks who killed zero….I wonder how constant the traditional percentage was for the % of total hunters killing zero…..whether we’re talking deer or turkey. I don’t believe for a minute that they actually ever though they’d get 100% compliance. I’m sure they had a goal of “x” amount and then a means of using that number to extrapolate it or use the trends just like a random sampling problem. I believe that about one of the only ways they can really use the info is to look at trends to see if the yield is sustainable or declining.

first off I knew I could count on PCP to carry the load on my position on this! We don't, and I don't think we ever will, know how many turkeys we have in AL. We could, however, get some good estimates. A banding study across the state catching and banding thousands of birds would get 1) an excellent idea of what the percentage of gobblers are harvested each year and 2) after a couple years, provide some estimate of population, especially in conjunction with GC and the phone survey they do now. This should have been done years ago - cheap and easy. We don't have a statistically valid reproductive survey. There is a "observation" survey done but it is low participation and not valid. "Although it is not considered scientific data, results of the brood survey play a critical role in our assessment of turkey populations" from beards and spurs. Ive never seen the data and doubt there is any size to the sample. Many other states have done defined "routes" for years and have good data. We don't know the trajectory of the population (obviously) and, while I don't see as many as I used to and I believe we have generally fewer than 10 years ago, I don't see it as cause for alarm. Breeding Bird Survey, done for decades, say we are increasing. We don't know how, or if, gobbler harvest or timing effects poult production. I doubt there is ANY connection. We don't know how or if a later start date effects nesting and poult production, again, I doubt there is ANY relationship but I am open to the possibility. All the talk about dominant gobblers and their role in breeding and pecking order is simply speculation. Although I hear it and it sounds neat, there is NO data on this subject and any discussion of it is only one persons opinion. I have heard that the dominant gobbler does all the breeding and his removal upsets the "pecking order" and it takes time to restructure and get sub gobblers tuned up to breed. In the same presentation, I have heard the presenter say that some nests are fathered by more than one gobbler! WHAT? how is this possible, I asked! Just part of the program. That's why I say speculation - no publications on this although it would be well received by the scientific community if the data were there.

We do know predator control usually increases nest and poult production. We know good habitat management leads to increased turkey numbers. We know burning, good timber management, food plots, etc are good for turkeys. We know a lot about home ranges, habitat use, food habits, roost habitat, yearly and seasonal mortality and causes, seasonal movements, nesting and brood rearing habitat, predation, nest survival and, to some extent, poult survival.

So, if you disagree with the regulation change, flood the CAB (every member) with letters stating your opinion and send a copy to Chuck. Apparently only 2 letters were given to the CAB before this meeting and they were solicited to support the regulation changes. NO letters were sent against these changes. Make your voice known........ and use PCP's working and logic

This^^^^

They proved science didn't matter when they approved 10 extra days of deer season in the north zone for Will Ainsworth.

If the population could sustain the extra harvest that would occur without issue due to the extra ten days in Feb then there’s nothing wrong with them extending the season to offer more opportunities for hunters to get in the woods and hunt as well as keeping the overall regulations for the state as a whole more simplistic versus dicing us up more and more……”Hunter satisfaction” is a part of management too. The rut being over has nothing to do with it being sound or not as folks try to make it out….Folks like to use the phrase…”There’s no biological reason to hunt them in Feb!”…..As if there’s a “biological reason” for hunting during the rut…..or a “biological reason” for killing male deer period really….What’s the “biological reason” for that? I hate that phrase now because its just something someone said that sounded intelligent and catchy and stumped someone at the time probably so folks ran with it even if they didn’t have the first clue what they were saying.

Probably need to start a new thread for this discussion.

Good to see you weighing in, Gobbler.

No new discussion needed. I was offering evidence in support of turkey Joe's statement

It's all good....wasn't trying to single you out or anything.....that whole bilogical reason argument has always irked me

No one on here started that argument. The DNR are the ones saying they are basing their decisions on science, and then changing the starting date to be fair to weekend hunters. I just got an email from the state summarizing the meeting discussion. Looks like this season will be the last normal season we will see.

Advisory Board Tables Alabama Turkey Reg Changes Until February Meeting 0
Conservation Advisory Board will again consider proposal to reduce limit to three gobblers and start season later.
BY DAVID RAINER - ADCNR ON AUGUST 27, 2020HUNTING
The Alabama Conservation Advisory Board (CAB) approved a three-day extension of the red snapper season and tabled a motion to change the season dates and bag limit for wild turkeys at its recent meeting in Mobile.

Chris Blankenship, Commissioner of the Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources (ADCNR), recommended a three-day extension of the red snapper season, which the Board approved unanimously. The extra red snapper days are set for Oct. 10-12. The Board also voted to give the Commissioner leeway to adjust those dates should inclement weather interfere with the planned extension.

“We saw an increased participation in red snapper season,” Commissioner Blankenship said. “People couldn’t play travel ball. They weren’t going to Disney World or going on family vacations. Consequently, we saw increased participation on all weekends of the red snapper season. Because of that, we closed the season on July 3 as we were approaching the quota on red snapper. After checking the data and seeing the final landings, we have about 128,000 pounds of red snapper quota left.”

The Commissioner said the approved extension is the Saturday, Sunday and Monday of Columbus Day weekend.

The Board heard a presentation from Mike Chamberlain, the Terrell Professor of Wildlife Ecology and Management at the University of Georgia, about the decline of wild turkey populations in the South. Chamberlain’s presentation was the same one given to Arkansas Game and Fish Commission, which wanted to see data on how harvest impacts the population dynamics.

“Arkansas’ turkey population has been declining for a number of years,” Chamberlain said. “The trajectory of the population in Arkansas is almost identical to the trajectory of the population in Alabama, except that Alabama is about seven or eight years behind.”


The Alabama Conservation Advisory Board tabled a motion that would change turkey season to open later and reduce the season bag limit to three gobblers.

Chamberlain, who is studying wild turkeys in numerous states from Arizona to North Carolina, said gobbling activity begins about 45 days before the peak of nesting.

“Gobblers become receptive well before the hens do,” he said. “We know two things drive gobbling activity. One is hen availability. As hens become less available, gobbling increases. The other is competition amongst themselves. If your buddy is gobbling, you gobble.

“What we see is that a lot of gobbling in March corresponds to no breeding activity. We also see that gobbling really picks up when hens start to nest.”

Chamberlain said what we’re dealing with in the South is an increased harvest of gobblers and a survival rate of hatchlings that is not high enough to sustain the population.

“What we see is a slow, gradual decline across all the states in the Southeast,” he said. “The survival rate of a clutch is 1 to 1 1/2 poults per hen. That is not sustainable. So, it makes sense that the populations have slowly declined.”

Chamberlain also said his studies indicate that about 80% of the harvest occurs before the peak of incubation.

“If you remove four toms from 2,400 acres, gobbling decreases four-fold,” he said.

Chamberlain pointed out that the reported harvest on the opening weekend of Alabama’s 2020 season was 43% higher than the harvest from 2019, a trend that held true throughout the Southeast.

“We know that early in the season, the dominant birds are the ones being shot,” he said. “So that 43% disproportionately affects the older, dominant birds.”

Chamberlain said the result of taking the dominant birds out of the population is an increase in the length of nesting activity. Instead of most of the egg-laying occurring within a few weeks, he said the hatching of the eggs is now stretched out over as much as 100 days.

“If all of these hens drop their clutches within a couple of weeks, they will hatch about the same time,” he said. “By scattering them across the landscape across 100 days, you give predators the advantage. With all the eggs hatching at one time, predators can’t possibly find all of them. If you stretch it across three months—rat snakes, raccoons, horned owls – you’re giving them an advantage.

“The science suggests the activity we’re doing is contributing to this prolonged nesting effort.”

Board Chairman Joey Dobbs asked Chamberlain if he had suggestions on how to stop the decline of the turkey population in Alabama and the Southeast.

“There are some things we can control and some things we can’t,” Chamberlain said. “This bird, uniformly across the Southeast, is dealing with habitat issues—declining quality, fragmentation, urbanization. We have diseases that are popping up that are affecting the birds. We have predator communities that are much more diverse than they were. We can’t control any of that because most turkeys live on private land.

“What we can control is what we know impacts this bird. That is harvest. We’ve known this since the mid-90s.”

After Chamberlain’s presentation, a motion was made to change the dates and bag limit for Alabama’s turkey season with a starting date of April 1 through the first Saturday in May with a season bag limit of three birds. The current regulations open the spring turkey season in most of the state on the third Saturday in March with a season bag limit of five birds.

Before the vote, Board Member Patrick Cagle offered an amendment to table that motion until the February 2021 Board meeting to ensure hunters in Alabama would not run afoul of a new regulation with the current regulation already printed in the Alabama Hunting & Fishing Digest. The Board unanimously approved the amendment to table the motion.

When asked for a recommendation on turkey season by Chairman Dobbs, Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries Director Chuck Sykes said the decline in Arkansas’ turkey numbers is an ominous indication of where Alabama is headed without change.

“I would ask the Board to move the season starting date to as late as possible with a three-bird bag limit,” Sykes said. “I think Dr. Chamberlain showed that Arkansas is in a bad way right now. We’re headed in that direction. The sooner we can take proactive solutions, the better. I don’t want to kick this can down the road any farther. Thank y’all for saying you will take this up at the first meeting of 2021 and make a decision. It’s time.”

Does sound like done deal for next Feb. meeting

That’s the one thanks parrothead. Y’all dang trophy hunters killing them dominant tams have ruined it for everyone

Well, I guess we can go spend our money is other states prior to 4/1. Way to go CAB!

Screw it, if we're not conforming to dates anymore, let's go hunt them right now. Screw 'em. I can probably get off on monday if yall wanna go.

Dates are just numbers on a calendar.

.....as well as an edible sweet fruit grown in many tropical regions around the world

CNC, really. I dont need help to go pooo.

Last year, chuckles and company showed us they clearly have no regard for any biological data or benefits of the resources.
If they can arbitrarily change the season, just to suit the fancy of their weekend hunting buddies, then I can arbitrarily change it to suit my fancy.

Old Mississippi will get hammered even more if they move it to April 1.

Ain’t no turkeys in Ms.

Great to see you posting here again, gobbler!

I too, had wondered about the theory that the hens have to fall in love with a new gobbler to breed him, and then the same guy posting from the same Facebook account that it is so important for the hens to breed multiple gobblers and increase the genetic diversity of each clutch. The two ideas seem to contradict each other, and made it look to me like he was looking for any sort of excuse to reduce hunting. Gotta give the guy credit though, he has gotten rich off all these turkey studies.

Here is a question you can probably answer that no other biologist will touch - is there a study from anywhere that shows that legal hunting of spring gobblers reduces poult recruitment? Forget about the season timing having an effect, I'm talking about hunting having any effect period. That seems to me to be one of the easier studies that could be made; count the poults in unhunted places, and then count them on similar land that is hunted. Has this ever been done?

I sent a letter to every member of the CAB back in January, and got only 2 responses. I guess they trashed them if they are claiming nobody contacted them. I will send out another round before next year's meeting. I hope everyone else will too.

For those wanting data: is this year 2 or 3 (or more) of the studies that have been ongoing on a few of the WMA's (delayed opening, telemetered birds)? Anybody know when the studies are supposed to wrap up?

But what about this

Dominance and breeding is a difficult thing to ascertain in turkeys because hens can store sperm for as long as 50 days before using it to fertilize eggs.

So Alabama is the next Arkansas? Really? And it’s based on what data that who has collected over the last 7-8 years? I’m sorry, that’s sensational speculation. Fearmongering. Not very credible. And, even if it happens to be correct, it’s reckless to state that without backing it up.

I’m not sure I’ve heard anything positive about the execution of these studies. I person even went so far to say that they wouldn’t make any management decisions based off of them. That person seemed very dismayed when I told him that they were being referenced by CAB members when talking about season and limit changes.

Definitely, contact everyone you can to voice your opinion. However, based on recent history, I’ve got a bad feeling about this one.

Its absolutely NOT a done deal. There are folks on the CAB that are still not on board with this, hence my post above saying to send letters to the CAB with the facts PCP is promoting on here as well as some facts I put in my post.







I've been looking for it as well. There is a study (Moore et. al. 2010) that looked at nest success on Savannah River Site (an unhunted population) and found terrible nest success but they didn't compare it to a hunted site. Still looking


I am assuming (maybe incorrectly) that most of the anecdotal poult per hen surveys they do are on WMA's. I know they changed start dates on a couple, not sure about limits on harvest - seems like noone can get to look at the "data" they use. I know GA is doing some season date and limit change on some of their WMA's, specifically to study the effects of season and gobbler harvest on turkey populations including poult production. I have heard that there is NO differences in the "modified" WMA's data and those WMA's that were not changed. The explanation for this (by some) is "the hens must have been using private lands outside the WMA's and are being disturbed there".

Having trouble finding names and contact information for current cab members. Could someone please assist?

Whoever has this info please post it so we all can contact them!

I'd say the harvest was way up because they gobbled much better/more consistantly this year than last.

Look at the "board map"
https://www.outdooralabama.com/about-us/conservation-advisory-board

Thanks for the info and will do.

I can see all your images except that one gobbler. Says it’s unavailable.

yea, forgot how to do it
I think you can click on it and it will take you to the image

https://www.outdooralabama.com/research/hunter-survey-results

Since I can't seem to post a screenshot, look on 2016 and 2017 season of the mail in hunter survey results (the last year they did mail in) and ask yourself why the 2017 turkey season is highlighted and especially noted as the lowest spring harvest since 1981, the highest spring man-day harvest on record, and lowest spring harvest per hunter since 1982, BUT there is no note of this in the deer harvest which also was the lowest deer harvest since 1981, second highest man-days per harvest on record, highest man-days per harvest since 1981 and lowest harvest per hunter since 1981? Why wasn't there a note of this for Dove (2nd lowest harvest ever recorded), squirrel (lowest on record), rabbit (lowest on record), coon (2nd lowest harvest ever recorded), bobcat (lowest ever recorded) or woodcock (lowest ever recorded). Are we being manipulated?

Exactly what I needed Gobbler, thank you very much.

Hold up now.......Are you trying to say that they're subtly manipulating the info in order to mold the hunters opinions towards the ones that they want them to have???.......Kinda like when your a teenager and you persuade her into letting you "only stick the head in a little"??

I have read the Moore Savannah River study and IMO there are some issues with pseudo-replication. Even if a person accepts the sampling protocol I'm not sure the findings should be extrapolated to "all" other populations. Now I read that long ago so maybe I should revisit it.

Anyway, I haven't focused in turkey research but maybe it is an area to really look at. I am pretty darn sure that many of the breeding outcomes will be density dependant.

Maybe they’re gonna extend deer season even longer and don’t want turkey hunters in the way? This is some crap I could see em doing 🤦🏻‍♂️

Maybe I will actually be able to limit out now.

Some of the new research available to us surrounding the breeding, nesting and brooding process is applicable to these type discussions in today's environment....

https://tv.nwtf.org/2020/05/14/cocktails-and-conservation-nesting-brooding/

Sykes is an idiot and needs to go!! They’re biting the hand that feeds them by crap like this. Those geniuses wonder why license sales suck, this is why. May say the hell with hunting AL this year!!

After talking to a few folks about the situation, I don't think that these proposed changes are a done deal at all. I'm gonna write another letter and send it out to every CAB member, and I encourage everyone else to do the same. I think there is a good chance we can defeat this, and keep our AL system of turkey management in place. It's worked well for over 60 years; no reason it can't work 60 more.

There are more deer hunter than turkey hinders. 🙄🙄🙄

If I translated that correctly, I'm glad to have fewer turkey hunters and hopefully several thousand more will give it up soon.

I've quit on three birds for the last 25 years...and I disagree with Sykes trying to lower the limit without biological reasons to do so.

I've been curious about this all along, but why jump from 5 to 3 bird limit? What happened to 4?

Also, I believe most on here agree a decoy ban would solve alot of these 'problems'. Why not ban decoys for adults, but allow them for youth weekend or if a youth hunter is present? Easily enforceable, allows kids to get hooked on it by having success, takes away an adult crutch. Just a thought.

If there really is a problem with dominant birds being killed too early in the season and it actually resulting in lowered poult production, then I agree with you that a decoy ban would do far more to solving the problem than any other action. Now, let me say first, that I am more convinced than ever that there is absolutely zero evidence that gobbler harvest is affecting poult production. You can be sure that if they had such evidence they would be walloping us over the head with it every day. They don't have it, and in fact all attempts so far to find such evidence have gone the wrong way for them - it just shows that hunting doesn't make any difference.

They say that the research shows that the dominant gobblers are being killed early in the season, and I would think that they must have genuine evidence for repeating that so often. It is not my experience as a turkey hunter. Given the choice of hunting a dominant bird that has 10 hens with him, or hunting one who is all alone, I will hunt the lone gobbler every time. A gobbler that is henned up like that is extremely difficult to call. If those turkeys are really being killed, I suspect that decoys and fans are the way it's being accomplished. Eliminate the decoys, and the dominant gobbler is far more likely to live until later in the season; that's when he becomes vulnerable to calling.

It would be fine with me to just eliminate decoys altogether, but maybe not allowing them until April 1 would be a more acceptable compromise.

I agree and was having this same conversation with another member here earlier. As we have mentioned, there are far too many other courses of action rather than drastically altering Alabama's turkey season by way of a 3 bird limit and a blanket April starting date, with decoys being a prime candidate for restriction or removal if they insist on their reasoning of 'too many dominant gobblers being killed early in the season'. It's a no-brainer for most turkey hunters who have been at it awhile. I also believe they do not have the scientific facts to back up their claims.

They want birds to breed? Shut off hunting at noon everyday and let the birds have the evenings to breed and settle back down. Too many folks sit of food plots and bush wack them. Leave the season and limits alone.

Now this makes more sense than anything else that I have heard. They do it on the WMAs might as well make it state wide.

I'm no biologist. Just a turkey hunter. Some of my best hunting buddies are biologists, however.,been some interesting late night conversations around the campfires. The decline is obviously multi faceted...
No way to blame any one factor. I realize there are some private lands that are yet to be affected, but most public lands are down in numbers, to some degree. In this modern age of cyber scouters & video professionals, public turkeys get absolutely hammered these days. I can remember when guys would say I was crazy for chasing a bird around in spring. Today, EVERYone is a turkey hunter. I certainly miss the days of yore...

I'd be ok with losing some 'crutches', like tent blinds & decoys.

Not a bad idee, makes sense. Chuck and Co. will never go for it.

I still contend that I have not seen any ACTUAL scientific data showing the following:

(1) turkey populations have decreased;
(2) that these decreases are due, in part, to human harvest;
(3) this dominant bird theory is supported.

Does anyone have anything? I've heard talk of fewer turkeys, and believe myself that a few years ago, it seemed like there were fewer, but last year was good, and this spring/summer, I've seen more poults than in a long, long time. Is it possible, there are cycles? Weather? Or is it possible we never had a "problem" to begin with? I'd love to see the real numbers.

Personally, I don’t like that idea at all. I never saw a mass abundance of population growth on the WMAs that do that.

I don't need a watch or a calendar.

I agree with this statement. Wish people could leave chit alone. We saw a big decline in the population 10-15 yrs ago but the last 5 years the birds are making a strong come back. Everything comes in cycles. BTW best year of poults I’ve ever seen.

Me too with the crutches...

Ask your biologist buddies if we need to limit harvest on 95% of our lands to fix a problem on “most public lands”, the other 5%. Seems like they should address it locally.

I certainly will pose that question, next weekend, at bear camp. I think it's a question worth discussion.

I personally am opposed to closing the season at noon. When I was a GW I worked mostly mornings, had to hunt a lot in afternoons/evenings. Lots of folks in that position.

With the way they manipulate the time now, there are a whole lot of people that can only hunt in the afternoon. It would be terribly unfair to them to knock them out of hunting completely.

A guy that is in a position to know what is going on at the state level as much as anyone told me that turkeys seem to be doing very well on private land; it's public land that is having issues. Why don't they just adjust the seasons on the wma and other public land and leave everyone else alone? I have never seen as many turkeys as I've seen this summer. I can't step out into my yard without scaring a turkey.

I’m also opposed to stopping hunting at noon for the reasons mentioned above.

The entire state of Missouri was daylight to 1:00 pm, prior to the big number decline they had about 10 years ago. The decline was attributed to several bad hatches in a row and weather related. Stopping hunting midday didn’t have any good or bad affect, before or after. That’s the version of the Missouri story as we knew it back then.

I went on a hunt in MO back around 2008 or so, and I've never heard as many Easterns gobble in one place as I did on that hunt. I hunted 3 different tracts, scattered over about 30 miles, and they were all loaded with turkeys. I killed my 2 easily, but I hated the state regs and also all the restrictions the outfitter placed on me, so I didn't go back for several years.

I think it was about 6 years later that I went back, and I never heard a turkey gobble on his land. I heard one gobble twice far away one morning, heard absolutely nothing the next day. All of those draconian regulations didn't make a bit of difference in the world. They won't help AL either. What they will do is discourage folks from managing their land for turkeys, and the inevitable result will be a lot fewer turkeys.

Government regulations do not produce turkeys. Private landowners produce turkeys. If you want more turkeys, do everything you can to encourage the landowners. Long ago, our dcnr understood this, and in fact, that's where I learned it. Most of the opinions I hold about wildlife management is what our dcnr was telling folks back in the 60s and 70s. They were extremely successful in getting that message out, and the result was that AL had good populations of deer and turkey long before our neighboring states.

But now we just wanna embrace the failed policies of the other states. I guess everyone reacts to peer pressure.

Charles Kelly understood this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^100%

What about Chuckie sikes😥

These are true.

It would give us all an excuse to be home at lunch and actually spend afternoons in the spring with our wives...

Is that a joke? If I wanted to spend afternoons with my wife, she could go turkey hunting. I don’t need anyone giving me an excuse to not do something I want to do.

Perhaps we could have morning shooting hours, too, like with ducks. That would help stockpile more gobblers.

Or maybe we have morning-only hunting and a 3-bird limit. We'd be up to our eyeballs in gobblers in just a few years just like the other states ... that also are suffering declines and problems, too, despite having morning-only hunting restrictions and 1- or 3-bird season limits.

It sounds like we're on the hairy edge of "We gotta just do something!" similar to the gun-control people after an event or the virus-control people. "Do something! It'll be better! Doooooo somethingggggg!"

Unless there is sound biological data that supports a limit reduction or hunting hours change or anything else related, tinkering with it just because, or to appease someone (or a group, like with buck limits and antler restrictions) is not how it should be done. If there is solid data, let's see and hear about it.

The bottom-line basic question always should be, "Would this be biologically detrimental or beneficial? Is this necessary or unnecessary? Is this based on biology and solid data or is someone applying pressure to just do something?"

If it involves money, companies or someone's ego then it should be ignored. Unfortunately, that's not reality.

In line with your statement is this quote:

“I would ask the Board to move the season starting date to as late as possible with a three-bird bag limit,” Sykes said. “I think Dr. Chamberlain showed that Arkansas is in a bad way right now. We’re headed in that direction. The sooner we can take proactive solutions, the better. I don’t want to kick this can down the road any farther. Thank y’all for saying you will take this up at the first meeting of 2021 and make a decision. It’s time.”

Wasn't entirely a joke. I love being with my wife as well, but turkey season is pretty short and it sounds like there are people out there trying to make it even shorter. I'd like to spend as much time hunting as I possibly can, and April is right around the time that the other half wants stuff done around the yard and in the house.

The crux of my statement was that no afternoon hunting kinda forces one's hand in fulfilling some obligations around the house that you might not exactly be predisposed to do. I wasn't necessarily directing that at you or anyone, just a thought

Well, heckfire. Why not just have "no turkey season" for five years to let things build back up?

If going to three-per-season is going to SaVe ThE BirDs! then by golly, we should all do what's best for the good of everyone and not hunt for a few years. That would just bump up things to hunky-dory status in short order.

And paint your toenails and trim your mangina.

Winston county has opened April 1st for at least 20 years. It’s possible to go ride for hours around Bankhead and not even see a turkey. There’s another area I hunt that’s completely opposite. It’s almost impossible to not see a turkey while riding around. Season opener has been normal and hunting is allowed in the afternoons. All I can go off of is what I see. You can’t tell me they have all the answers from a 5 year study. They should have been looking at Winston county for the last 20 years to see that a late opener doesn’t explode the population of turkeys.

I actually paint my mangina and trim my toenails. You got it backwards

After reading through this I think the answer is pretty clear. The described decline in turkey numbers has less to do with hunting and more to do with environmental and biologic impacts. Policy makers can change the limit to 3 birds and cut off hunting at noon but it won't have major impacts on the population. We know that and they probably do as well. But, blame it on the 1%ers (5 bird killers) or those that hunt in the evening and you've got yourself a winning political strategy.

BTW, I really like the 1pm end of the season in Missouri but not for anything to do with the hunting. It allows me to have more fun. Afternoons are spent fishing, frying, grilling, and sometimes being lazy. Sitting on the porch saying, "I'd go kill that gobbler hammering over there, but I probably couldn't get it done by 1 so yeah I'll have a beer" has turned in to an annual happening. I do think it is a silly rule and would never support any other states following it, but I'm kind of glad Missouri has it.

This is taken directly from the Missouri Department of Conservation Website:

By the 1990s turkey populations around the United States began to level out. A tenant of wildlife management is that exponential population growth is eventually curbed by predators, disease, competition for food and changes in habitat. Missouri’s turkey population had reached unimaginable levels, close to a million entering autumn, and flocks of hundreds of turkeys in winter were not uncommon.

Although turkey population growth flattened in the 1990s, hunting success peaked in 2004 with a record spring harvest of 60,744. With 98 percent of these birds being males shot after the peak in breeding, this level of hunting had little or no effect on future long-term abundance. Similarly, fall harvest had fallen over the years to a small fraction of the statewide population, translating to little or no effect on long-term abundance or the quality of the spring hunt.

We can quit hunting at any time of the day we want to without yet another law or regulation being imposed upon us for no biological reason.

We don't need to be told "quit hunting at 1 p.m. so you can go back to work, fish or sit on the porch."

We can make our own decisions to do that, just like we can make our own decisions to kill two gobblers or four or limit out or not hunt an area, without the government adding more of its boot to our back.

Agreed!!

Indeed! Last thing we need is a new law eliminating afternoon hunting. I went hunting in the afternoon one time last season, and that was the first day of the season. But other folks count on afternoon hunting, and there is no reason to knock them out of hunting.

I don't disagree and said I don't support it being a law. But it does have some positive consequences.

What are the legitimate, definitive, data-proven positive consequences?

Alabama's WMAs have had an afternoon prohibition for many years. Hunting ends at noon or 1 p.m. just like in Missouri. Is the population of turkeys on our WMAs stronger and growing thanks to that longtime afternoon prohibition? Is Missouri's population stronger thanks to the half-day restriction? I know it's a great state for turkey hunting and gets a lot of visitors.

I'd love to hear or see some data that shows that half a day on WMAs is clearly beneficial AND would prove to be the same statewide on private lands. If it truly is or would be, fine. If there's nothing that supports cutting half the season with a morning-only regulation other than anecdotal "Aw, you know it probably helps," then that's not right.

Private-land hunters can decide on their own to hunt all day, half a day, one hour, two days a week, not at all or every day from sunrise to sunset. They have a true 45-day season (or whatever it is). Sunrise to sunset, every day for the season, on private land for them to make the decision.

But the WMA hunter has half that amount. Any regulation to curtail the public's amount of hunting with no hard, legitimate data isn't a good idea. That goes back to the "Hey, we gotta do something! Y'all know it's bad so we need to do something now! Look at those other states! We gotta do something before it's too late." deal.

As with anything, if the agency has data to support such a significant change -- be it a bag limit reduction or half-day change, or shooting hens, or whatever -- it should let everyone know.

Nine pages, and still, no one has quoted or cited any actual data that turkey populations are declining in such a manner due to hunting that changes in the regulations are needed.

Data/science/biology should drive management decisions. Not politics, money, or "what other states are doing."

This is an interesting going on in GA but doesnt end till 2021

https://georgiawildlife.blog/2019/03/13/research-highlight-male-turkey-gobbling-behavior/

https://www.stltoday.com/news/scien...51bd42d-0bae-58ec-af3e-75c05475aed6.html

https://www.stltoday.com/news/scien...51bd42d-0bae-58ec-af3e-75c05475aed6.html

I agree with this.

If they extended the season and upped the bag limit I would likely still have so many turkeys I couldn't beat them out off my place unless I sold it to Wal-Mart and they turned it into a parking lot.

But I am not that short sighted.

Those on here complaining are the same bunch that get on every other thread about a rule and whine like a classroom full of 2nd graders. IMO some of you think wildlife management is what comes out of the end of a gun barrel connected to your trigger finger.

I am glad you never will be in charge. Enjoy shooting the 3 birds you are allowed on your limit and suck it up buttercup.

I'm gonna follow Chuck's example. Make up my own rules to suit me and my buddies

Huh? Never mind - I don’t think I care for an interpretation.

not a single one of those projects has any data connected with it

It hasn't passed yet, and it will still be 5 in 2021. I'm not giving up a lifetime of work without a fight, and I hope that a lot more folks will approach it the same way. The CAB has taken a lot of heat from hunters over the years, but they are our last line of defense against tyranny. Every one of them was appointed by a Republican governor, so it's far from certain that this is over.

Contact addresses for the Advisory Board members:

https://www.outdooralabama.com/about-us/conservation-advisory-board


For the Department:

https://www.outdooralabama.com/top-navigation/contact-us

gobbler, one doesnt end until 2021 and the Missouri one just started.

I understand, thats why they provide no information

Yes just let them make any rules they want and live with what they decide they will allow you. No reason to fight them even if they have no data to back up their rules

It’s a new form of hunter virtue signaling / sign in the yard. They go along with what they are told cause they are good little sheeple and better than you.

this right here^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

They also vote for Doug Jones

I concur!

Let your conscious be your guide. They dropped SC limit a few years ago from 5 to 3. It will make your blood pressure rise to think about all the reasons why it is stupid. At the end of the day, it is coming to your state soon. Just do your thing and roll on. No reason to get all jacked up about it. You can't change it. Poor country preacher is about the best I've seen at articulating it and arguing it, but it is still gonna happen. Now granted, it may take a while to happen, but it will.

Wambaw, how many gobblers y'all got struttin' around now that they've been protected and stockpiled with the reduction?

Should be a sho'nuff shitshow of mature gobblers over there by now.

I feel like the quality of the hunting has little to do with the changes. They went from March 15 - May 1 with a limit of 5 to March 22 - May 5 and a limit of 3. Only 1 can be killed from March 22-31.

The upstate went from April 1 - May 1 with a limit of 5 to April 1 - May 10 with a limit of 3. Only 1 can be killed from April 1 - 9.

Only 1 may be killed a day now, whereas it used to be 2 a day.

I think overall there are lower numbers than there were 20 years ago. I don't think numbers would be any different if they had left the season structure alone. The hunting is still pretty good. I know we have alot less habitat and a pile more people hunting now.

I personally lost a pile of prime land. At one time, I had a 4500 acre tract I hunted by myself for free. It was rough times I tell ya. I still have multiple tracts and hunt WMA but it was sure enough good times 20 years ago. That 4500 acre tract is now a neighborhood. Development of hunting land into residential areas is a big problem in my area. The public land is still good.

They are saying that too many gobblers are killed in the first part of the season and it is disrupting breeding. I understand the concept, but if that is the case, then why were numbers so high in the 90's through 2012 or so when you could legally kill 5 the first 3 days of the season. And people were doing it.

I honestly think there is just too many people trying to hunt now.

^THIS!!!!!

For deer/turkey regulations, Winston County should be divided at Double Springs...western Winston’s game populations are NOTHING like eastern Winston’s

When the AL limit was 6 there was a helluva lot of turkeys and about 5% or less of the number that call themselves turkey hunters today. Plenty common to have access to many thousands of acres by yourself for the asking. Public hunting on timberlands by permit almost unlimited...too much has changed to even get started.

Just now seeing this. Wow is all I can say.

3 bird limit wouldn’t affect me one bit. Heck, I do good to kill one, 😂

Now I need all the time in the world since that is my busy season and tough for me to go

I’m not sure that anything will ever change in Montgomery. Specifically coming from the political class down there but changing up the CAB could help and it could hurt. It just depends on who was put on it.

If change is desired it should be made perfectly clear that hunters would not support a gubernatorial candidate that didn’t make it a priority. Hunting is a huge industry and there qualified individuals out there to sit on a board.

Personally I think it it should be SIMILAR to this...

2 people from DCNR- (a deer person and bird person)
1 person from timber/leasing industry
1 person from the research side
1 person from the private management/consulting side
1 person from ADAI
1 person from the high fence/breeding industry
1 person from the National Forest system
1 fisheries biologist (private or public)
1 USDA biologist specializing in trapping

The CAB should be abolished. It was sold to us as a citizen committee, appointed by the Governor , to hold meetings across the state and report to the commissioner as to what they found out. No problem so far.

Then the law passed and lo and behold the CAB could go around the professionals at DCNR and do damn near anything they wanted to with the approval of the commissioner who is another appointed non professional. Personal politics at its worst.

Fred this is why we now have regulation over conservation.....politicians and not hunters...too many appointed positions

I've been opposed to the formation of the CAB from before the law passed. It put too much power in the hands of politics driven non professionals. Not good. EVER.

I have very seldom disagreed with you on anything through the years, and wouldn't disagree with this in an ideal world. But the problem as I see it with this issue is that it is the head "professional" that is pushing these draconian regulations that will destroy turkey hunting as we know it.

And the only hope we have of stopping him is to appeal to the appointed citizens who make up the CAB. Maybe it shouldn't be this way, but that's the way I see it.

the problem there is that the CAB will side with Chuckie, already showed their bent with the north Al Feb deer season.

The CAB is supposed to be the voice of the hunters, not a rubber stamp for Chuckie. Since you can't take the politics out of the CAB it should be abolished. Also, since you can t take the politics out of the CAB it will live forever.

Yes, it needs completely restructured but not abolished. There is a way for it to work as it was “sold”. There must be some board in place to advise other than just a top professional regardless who it is. It’s going to take a Governor that takes these matters seriously enough to correct the CAB.

I believe this can be done but it will take a huge push from ALL hunters during the next gubernatorial election cycle. I believe with the right people from the industry things could be as it was originally designed.

Gosh NightHunter, you sound just like me.

I have said for years that a new governor who was really interested in hunting was our only hope, but I don't see anyone like that out there. Maybe one will rise up. I certainly agree with your premise that citizens need input into the process.


Troy said:
>>> The problem there is that the CAB will side with Chuckie, already showed their bent with the north Al Feb deer season.<<<

You are probably right again, but I know for a fact that not every CAB member is in favor of this. This is a not very well educated guess, but I think there is about a third of the board that would agree with me, a third that will blindly follow the Grand Poobah, and a third that could go either way.

If you care about the Alabama system of turkey hunting, and want it to continue,then NOW is the time to contact your rep and make your voice heard. Or better yet, contact all of them. Write a respectful letter if you can; send an email at least. As someone posted above, draconian changes are probably inevitable, but we can fight them off as long as we can. Once they are made, they will never be rescinded, so right now is your only chance to have a say that will matter.

Should be open season on these dang corn eaters.. I got six gobblers who frequent one place i keep baited up for deer.

Good, I don’t have many turkeys so I guess I should be for this.
Like everybody was onboard for the 3 buck limit.
I like being on the winning side just every so often. It’s so rare.

I was opposed to the three buck limit...

I unfortunately was for the buck limit because I couldn't see the future turn-the-thumbscrews regulations and mandates, and shame on me for that.

Anyone who belives "it's just a bird or two" or "it doesn't really matter" or "it's only a few minutes of your time to check it" or "it's only $15 for a bait license" or "it's just a permit to use a bow or rifle," at some point down the road you'll wake up.

The waking up usually happens once the fire under the pot gets hot enough and you realize you're the frog in the pot. By then it's too late.

Not gonna solve your problem. If you believe it will - why? Not that we need another discussion on this topic. Already been a bunch. But it ain’t solving anything. Except an agenda.

I sure as heck was opposed to it and argued against it on here constantly. Made a lot of folks mad at me, even though I tried to just be logical with my arguments and never personal. I couldn't have cared less about shooting 3 bucks, but I saw it as the beginning of the end of the historic Alabama system of game management. It was, and I think everyone can see that now.

Reducing the turkey limit has nothing to do with "saving" gobblers. It is entirely about money and politics. I remember that one of the guys on the deer study committee said it was a "good first step" when the buck limit was passed. The turkey limit will be about step number 5, but don't think for a second that it will be the last one; they are just getting started.

Just wait until you see what the now entirely Democratic controlled federal government has in store for hunters. As the states around us fall into line, don't doubt that AL will too. If you care about this, write or call the CAB right now. The 13 people on that board have the power to stop it, and I know that a lot of them don't support it. They don't get many letters, so the few they do get make a difference. It puts them in a much stronger position if they can go to the next meeting and say that they have a bunch of letters asking for no more changes to turkey season.

A letter can make a difference. Storming the Capitol doesn't work.

PCP- No better way to put it than that! Great point-I'm going to write a letter- Where would I go to look for where to send it?

Clem has a link in the first page of this thread. I addressed mine to the guy who represents my district, and then sent a copy of that letter to all of them. I noticed that Chairman Dobbs is supposed to end his term in March. He is a big supporter of the Agenda, so I wonder how that will fit in with the timing of the next meeting. Anyone in the know? Will he be reappointed? It's hard to find out info on these things.

The 3 bird limit would be bad but that April first start date is what tears me up the most. Ive always thought the 15th was a touch early but best gobbling/hunting ive seen is about March 20 thru April 15th or so. After about the 15th there basically done most places.

Just saw this about Georgia

Word is beginning to circulate that regulatory changes ( season dates, bag limits ) are in the offing, most likely to begin next (`22 ) season. This is primarily in response to declining poult/hen numbers. The biologists have tracked a general declining turkey population in Georgia . That does not mean that there aren`t individual areas and properties that have a goodly number of birds. That`s not, however, how global population biology works.

Any of you Georgia hunters who haven`t heard of him, find some podcasts by Dr. Mike Chamberlain, UGA wildlife biologist and avid turkey hunter. He`s one of " us " . I was spellbound listening to him.

CAB info including who's on the board and their mailing addresses. No emails or phones listed.

Write the letter. Keep a copy for yourself. That way there is a paper trail that can be sent to them, referenced, shown at a meeting or, if need be, subpoenaed.

https://www.outdooralabama.com/about-us/conservation-advisory-board

Traditionally, the Chairman has been reappointed without much fanfare as to preserve continuity. Unless I'm missing one (and I may be), I know of only three chairmn during the CAB's existence -- Jimmy Hinton, Dan Moultrie and Dobbs. There may have been one prior to Hinton but I'm not aware.

I always wondered how the chairman got selected. I have my suspicions but they're just that.

Fun fact to know: as per Robert's Rules of Order, the Chairperson only is to vote in the case of a tie.

Thanks, Clem. In most organizations, the ex-officio members don't vote, but it looks like they do on the CAB. I think the extension service guy attends the meeting and votes on everything. What about the Ag guy? Does he ever participate, or is he like the governor who never has anything to do with it?

They do so much questionable chit it's not worth trying to keep up with it.

Moultrie brought in a woman for at least one or two meetings who was, essentially, the Sergeant at Arms and counsel on Robert's Rules of Order. I remember at one meeting in Eufaula she kept saying they couldn't do this or that, and a few Board members were getting frustrated.

HORRORS! They were being held accountable and told they couldn't do something that wasn't correct!

Dan took it in stride because he wanted them to do the right thing by Robert's. To my knowledge they do not have a Sergeant at Arms or Robert's expert anymore to help with questions about procedure, voting, who can speak and when, and so forth.

At one point there was a question to the AG's office about whether an "advisory board" was under the same restrictions for public boards inasmuch as it had to follow Sunshine Laws on records and meetings. Far as I know, the AG's ruling was that it was not and did not, and thus could essentially do what it wanted.

That's been many years, though, so it may have changed and I may be incorrect. I know for certain that the "foundation" established when Siegelman was governor was set up to be able to hide donations and where the money went. That was during the "We'll tell them what we want them to know when we want them to know it' era.

I’ve matured😜

I also have a new employer...

I strongly suspected that. Congrats on your new job!

Thanks for the additional info, Clem. If they don't have to follow the Sunshine law that explains a lot.

This paper is one of the MAIN arguments regarding the season changes across the southeast. I would encourage everyone to read this, especially the discussion portion where it is discussed that there is very little statistically sound data that concludes reproduction is declining. Only that the indices show it. A little confusing but bottom line is this information is NOT conclusive.
http://www.rnr.lsu.edu/bret/BretWebSiteDocs/43_Byrne_329-351.pdf
In ANY correspondence with the CAB or others, ask if there is any solid or valid data, especially NOT from public land, that concludes reproduction or populations are down..... or is it only folks with an agenda that are promoting the doom and gloom. Do we really think we are looking at a species in peril??
We have a turkey committee under the department - ever hear anything from them? What is their opinion? We also had an expensive and HUGELY touted Alabama Turkey Project - anyone ever hear any results from it?? We need a turkey committee composed of representative user groups, biologists, land managers, conservation groups, university, etc to look into this AND the data that is available and make recommendations to the CAB - exactly like we did with antler restrictions/buck limits. MHO

Look on page 22 of the Departments turkey report at the reproductive data collected in the last 10 years and tell me there is a decline in reproduction over the last 10 years.
https://www.outdooralabama.com/site...20Alabama%20Annual%20Turkey%20Report.pdf

If they push the start of season to April, we revolt !

Don't take everything Chamberlain says too seriously; he certainly tends towards hyperbole in those podcasts. In one of them he described how gobblers just went crazy gobbling in unhunted areas, while they nearly shut up completely in the hunted areas. That was in the podcast he did with the Meateater guy a while back. You can find a link to it by searching this forum, but I don't think I have misrepresented what he said.

Apparently, he was basing that on a recording device they had on an unhunted area in SC. In the SC report, they had a graph that showed gobbles per day on the unhunted land vs hunted. They averaged around 11 on the unhunted and 8 on the hunted. It wasn't anything even remotely like what he described in the podcast. They had a lot of info in that report on the unhunted land, but strangely, nothing about how much higher the poult recruitment was on it. Does anyone really believe they didn't look at that? Of course they did, but it didn't support the agenda so it wasn't mentioned. That report was still used for all sorts of restrictions in SC.

So do 3 gobbles per day more lead to more poults? They have no idea. Chamberlain is on Twitter; you can ask him yourself. Forget about proving that starting turkey season too soon can hurt reproduction; they have no proof that legal spring hunting affects reproduction at all. I remain convinced that I what I learned at Auburn over 40 years ago is still true - spring gobbler hunting has no effect on turkey reproduction, with the possible exception of areas with very few turkeys. I think they should restrict those areas and leave the rest of us alone.

Gobbler, thanks for the links.

More proof the population is down!! LOL!!

I took this video a few weeks ago on public land. They were between me and where I was in a hurry to get to, so I really had no choice but to bump them. But as you can see, the population is struggling bad here 🙄

I counted 63 but didn’t want to count the same one twice... prolly woulda been 100+ if we’re managed properly

From a credible source - the next CAB meeting is March 6th, Department of Ag & Industry Building in Montgomery.

I was wondering if\when there would be more news about season changes. I assume it would soon follow this meeting.

Weird time to have the meeting - that’s the season opener here in my zone.........

Lets flood it

Mine too 😃

who in hell schedules a meeting on that date????? I guess that figure a smaller showing of turkey hunters then. What are they scared of????

I got a response from my letters to the CAB that said he had no intention of changing season date or bag limit! This was from one of the EX-Officio Members, does that vote count? I mailed a letter to everyone on that list that someone posted a link to.

Went to our property in GA Saturday. On the way there we saw turkeys in nearly every pasture between Chocolocco and the state line. I’ve been living out here 13 years and have never seen them in these pastures like I did Saturday.

Good for you. His vote does count and it was one of those guys that made the motion to reduce the season and limit at the last meeting. I only got a response from one member, but I know that my letter has been passed around some. It's not too late to contact them!

I’ve gotten 3 responses. Two were generalized political statements. The other was direct and sounds like we got the same answer

https://www.outdooralabama.com/articles/conservation-advisory-board-meet-montgomery-march-6


Cab meeting is March 6th. 9.a.m.

Good job sj. I’ve sent my letters as well but no response. Even when we don’t get a response I hope we are being heard.

Anyone going to the meeting?

You are being heard. They are getting more letters than they can remember

I’m hoping to. I’ve got a baby coming sometime around then, so plans may change.

I’m getting married on that day so I’m out...anyone have any of their email addresses I can write an email to?

Not all of them have their email’s listed, but here is the only list I can find of those that do.

https://www.outdooralabama.com/site...0addresses%20rev%2010-9-2020%20w-map.pdf

I haven’t read all the pages, but another thing that was proposed was for the first 10 days you could only kill one turkey. WTF Guys this may be old news

Chamberlain is an attention whore who contradicts his own “scientific observations” at least once every time he’s miked up

If you are considering writing a letter, now is the time, near the meeting so it is fresh on their minds.
Here are some points that are probably salient.
Turkey populations fluctuate normally with weather and predator populations and they have been very (possibly unnaturally) high after restocking
Are the "indicators" of "poults per hen" truly indicative of reproduction and or population trends? Mostly collected on public land. Not scientifically significant
Alabama's "wild turkey report" reproduction data shows NO decline over the last 10 years.
According to the hunter survey hunter harvest trends have been relatively flat until they changed survey techniques in 2017 when it went down.
According to the hunter survey days per kill trends have been relatively flat until they changed survey techniques in 2017 when it went WAY up.
Other states with later start dates, shorter seasons and lower limits are seeing the same perceived declines
Hatching eggs and raising poults is the only way to increase populations and lowering limits does nothing to help this.
Weather and predators controls reproduction
If early harvest of "dominant gobblers" is a real concern, ban decoys and fans
Is baiting increasing nest predator and pig populations thereby decreasing turkey nest success?
Is feeding corn leading to higher mortality due to aflotoxin to which turkeys are HIGHLY susceptible?
Does the dominant gobbler theory have any grounds in reality in a wild population of turkeys? We truly don't know.
We do know that multiple males are often represented in turkey clutches
Should turkey nesting season be 30 days or 100 days - we don't know but other ground nesting birds that renest often opt for the longer season to avoid weather event issues
We don't know how many turkeys are in Alabama......
We ought to change the season and limits on public lands and study the effects to see it it makes a difference
We ought to form a committee to look at the available data and make recommendations

Just some thoughts

Gobbler nailed it. Grab a few of his bullet points and mail away

Excellent Gobbler 👍🏻

Emails outbound soon

Great list by gobbler!

Here's another question that I would like answered, and I really wish I could get a straight answer from someone who knows. I doubt that anyone who really knows would answer it publicly, but if you would pm me I will promise to keep your name out of it and I will be the villain who spreads it. .

So here's the question:.

Has a certain biologist who has a very strong social media presence made a whole lot of money off the dominant gobbler theory? His name seems to be included on every turkey study in every state, so I would think that he is getting paid on each of them. If so, isn't keeping the theory before the public making him rich? Or am I wrong and he just draws his university salary and all the studies are charity work?

Ok, that's actually more than one question, but in most things you just follow the money. Maybe I am completely wrong on this one, but I would like to know for sure. Thanks for any info.

I can only speculate here but it usually works like this. The university pays these guys a salary. The professors as well as any one else (NWTF, AWF, DCNR) is in search of $$ to conduct research on relevant projects. Once a project gets funded it is conducted, sometimes cooperativley with another researcher from another university and usually with graduate students who get a stipend for their time on the project. The professors usually do these meetings, meet and greets, podcasts, etc on their own dime to not only present the data but help drum up more research $$ (and it is good for the ego ;)). I doubt he is getting a dime from his presence on social media and I don't doubt his motives. my $.02

Thanks gobbler.

That is how I thought it worked, but I thought that the professors got a certain % of the grant as a salary for his work on the project. That was the way it worked long ago in vocational education, but everything I know regarding academic research is long since obsolete.

All grants are open to public record requests. Now, individuals would have to report any "outside" business in their annual disclosures. This is where it can be more difficult to determine benefits.

Federal grants have many rules concerning how funds must be spent (as do many state grants). Privately funded grants are not heavily regulated.

I am not speaking directly about any person specifically. And schools have varying levels of determining conflicts if interest with their faculty and how benefits can be accepted.

He’s a narcissist - his benefit in all of this is the fame and recognition. They like money too but more than that they like all eyes on them for how great they are. He pumps his shucks more than those YouTube guys with the hashtag and emojis in the video names.

Some schools will let professors buy out all/part of their teaching obligation; where I went to school, the professors could use grant money to pay their summer salaries since most were on 9-10 month contracts and didn't teach during the summers.

Unless said biologist (I have no idea who it is) has started their own company - and is getting paid through the company and the school, he is probably not going to get rich doing research.

The decoys/fans/aflatoxin are all interesting topics that should probably be explored.

Thanks, that was the kind of information I was wondering about. I had a little experience with such stuff long ago, but I have intentionally tried to forget about it. It seems like that it used to be that a prof who pulled in a research grant for his university couldn't get money out of it, unless it was to fund his salary in the summer when he wasn't normally paid. But back then they could take consulting work with a different entity and they could get extra money that way. I will drop pursuing this unless someone can tell me about a specific incident.

Based on the people I know that started Turkey hunting in the last 10 years.....

a ban on hunting out of a ground blind or using a decoy would pretty well eliminate 90% of those people's chances at ever killing a bird. Harvest numbers instantly cut in 1/3 or maybe 1/2.

That’d be awesome, baiting would sky rocket

If that’s the case then it’d be counter intuitive. You’d lose even more birds to aflotoxin from people feeding them.
And if you banned ground blinds then you lose the opportunity to take young hunters that can’t sit still

If a kid needs a blind maybe he isn't old enough to be hunting.

Now there’s an idea.

Y’all getting off track. Stop acting like we NEED to cut harvest. Kinda the point of this whole thread. It’s a lazy idea for the powers that be, to lower a limit and delay the season, like other states have done with virtually zero success.

Or maybe you start out easy in a ground blind and end up with a hard-core, traveling turkey hunter that doesn't need a blind ...

As the father of a young turkey hunter who KILLED his first turkey NOT in a blind..

That’s absurd

I’m all for a kid killing a turkey out of a tent, using decoys, or even over a big pile of corn. It’s the adults that do the same that screw everything up

The guys that kill 15 birds a year poaching on other clubs land and claim they’re in TN when in AL can really feel good about themselves when the 3 bird limit ever does pass.

😳🍿🍿🍿🍿

Great post WMD!

Great post 257 and they are the only ones impressed 😀

I only killed a turkey out of ground blind few times - I hav hunted that property w out blind most of time - I set it up for my son so he would not get busted - I would rather not sit in blind - but it did not feel like any less of an achievement - blind can also limit u and if you are married to hunting a decoy it can limit you as well - sometime you may need to belly crawl on one - pros and cons to either way

But somebody using blind r not I could care less - and I am not more impressed if someone does not use decoy r blind - and if the state takes away decoys - who gives a crap - most of my career has been w out decoy anyway - you can set up to where they hav to look for u a little if u don’t sit out in wide open if U hav any timber

I hunted out of a ground blind in south texas a few years ago. The wind and cold was unexpected and I was freezing. I was glad to find it. As cold as I've ever been turkey hunting.

What every turkey hunter needs to do is take all their birds to the local turkey processor so every bird can be counted
Then things like bird limits and season opening changes won’t happen

I saw a 100% serious Facebook post the other day....Fellow asking about if any deer processors took turkey.

Daughter is 23 and has never set foot in a blind

The brainwashing is taking place.

"We must check our turkeys at the deer processors to comply and be wholesome parts of society!"

I’m sure it’s been mentioned but when’s the meeting date?

3/6/2021

Sent emails as I can't miss my wedding day to go...Let's fight this!! I refuse to let these guys ruin our turkey hunting over theoretical data.

https://www.outdooralabama.com/site...0addresses%20rev%2010-9-2020%20w-map.pdf

Gobbler had fantastic points to help build a strong email...I ended with if the medical field used hypotheticals and theories to treat patients, people would be dying left and right. Do not kill our turkey hunting with the same logic. This is a pivotal moment in the future of turkey hunting for our kids and grandchildren.

But Chucky knows best!!

Anyone care to post a sample letter/email you wrote?

Thanks. Just saw this after I asked someone to post a letter. This is what I was looking for. Made a post on Facebook tagging a lot of hunting friends to let them know about the upcoming meeting. Will sit down and form a letter to send in. Maybe we can flood their emails and they will decide not to make the changes.

So kids never grow up doing what they were taught? Corn, poaching, bag limit. I
Want my kid to win too, but he ain’t gonna do anything wrong to do it.

They are hearing us. I had one guy email me back agreeing that nest predators are the main cause and I have another guy from that list wanting to call me and discuss my points. The more concern in emails and letters the better. Let’s fight this.

Kids need to learn that you have to learn to hunt in order to have success. Everyone wants that day their kid gets their first, I get it. Bur when all emphasis is placed on a kill and little on the experience or the experience dumbed down to the point anyone can have success, then the art of hunting is completely lost for all generators to come.
Keep it a 5 bird limit and bring back the art of hunting to control the population. IMHO.

I emailed and got a “thank you for your comments” response. I’ve asked others to write or call also. One called and said he was told there were at least 4 no votes and that he’s gotten more correspondence over this issue than any since he’s been on the board and that he sees more turkeys now where he deer hunts than ever. He said what was needed now more than letters is for people to show up at the meeting and take up the entire 1 hour set aside for public comment. I know everyone can’t go to the meeting, so more letters and calls can’t hurt.

I nominate PCP and gobbler to be our in person representatives. Can I get a second?

Second and add AToler to that list.....

I'd like to go and just bring popcorn. =D

My email to all CAB members who's email I had access to:

Members of the CAB, 
As an avid Turkey hunter and outdoorsman, I am reaching out to you today asking you to vote down the proposed changes to the Turkey seasons and bag limits to be imposed as early as the Spring of 2022.  It is clear that most of the constituents that you all represent reject these proposed changes to the seasons as they are steeped in politicism(not tangible scientific data) and a link between legal spring gobbler harvest and declining turkey populations cannot be found. I am no biologist, but common sense tells us to allow some of the points below to play into the discussion.

-common sense tells us that fluctuating populations of any species are ever present year to year
- last spring was simply an anomaly based on the presence of more hunters in the field as a result of Covid-19 and widespread absences from work. Comparing last year' successes (or failures) harvests to this years harvest would surely show a skewed data set
-shortened seasons and bag limits have been imposed in other states with no realized result
-The DNR also proposed some nonsensical solutions to the CWD issue "kill all deer in an X mile radius of the first confirmed infection" do we really want the same agency making decisions about managing turkey populations with no data to stand on?
-There are vast amounts of knowledge we do NOT have about turkey biology and behavior.  Very little of it can be explained (That came straight from Chamberlain himself).  

 I implore you to uphold a heritage of turkey hunting in this state that has permeated for the last 70 years and DO NOT impose other changes to the seasons or bag limits at this time.

Nightwatchmen, that statement is entirely false. There is no such solution in the response plan. I’m not looking for a fight here, but I don’t like seeing misinformation posted for everyone to read when the response plan has no such suggestion.
Where did that info come from?
Carry on.

Where do you go to find information on how to contact each of the board members? I would like to send each one an e-mail opposing any change in dates or limits

Not all have email addresses listed, but this link shows those that do

https://www.outdooralabama.com/site...0addresses%20rev%2010-9-2020%20w-map.pdf

I sent an e-mail to all on board that I found address for. I encourage all who feel no changes are needed please do the same. Your voice counts!

Member of the State Widlife committee put out a video some time ago. Unless I misinterpreted the aim there, the idea was to harvest several hundred deer in some radius of the first infection, right?

I wont derail the turkey thread and we can PM. but the goal WAS to kill several deer in the area and test them all correct?

Yes the point was to increase surveillance in an infected area to determine prevalence of the disease. Eradication is not part of the plan. It’s ok. I have no desire to derail this tread either. That just caught my attention.

I will concede that I could have phrased that a little better. I trended toward hyperbole there a little and should not have. However, I don't think I would have agreed with killing them. We know they're gonna die after we harvest them.

I'd like to extend personal and professional respect here. I have seen your post, and know you to be a stand up guy. I will respond to my email and make it clear that eradication should not have been interpreted from that particular talking point.

That’s the only reason I made the distinction. I just hate for true meaning to get lost. Relying on public voluntary submissions to increase sampling numbers is what is most desired. Hopefully when the day comes that is what will happen. I shouldn’t have turned this into a CWD discussion. Carry on.

Turkeys 👍🏼😁

I doubt I could convey my thoughts near as well as them. I'm hoping to make it to the meeting, but I've got an extremely pregnant wife at home.

In case I don't make it, I sent the following email:



Gentleman,

As an avid proponent of the wild turkey, I would like to share some thoughts regarding restructuring our turkey season/limits:

1. Turkey populations ebb and flow. I've seen no data supporting a statewide decline in numbers. Some portions of the state are experiencing declines in population, while others are booming. I have leases and hunt public land in barbour, jefferson, st. clair, shelby, and lamar counties. From my history with these lands, I believe the population to be stable or improving on each tract. It is possible that the populations of the 80s and 90s, were artificially high after their resurgence.

2. There is no research showing hunters affecting overall turkey populations. Dr. Chamberlain explained to me, that his ideas are assumptions and hypotheses at this point. (I have screenshots of this, if you would like to see them)

3. Dropping the limit from 5 to 3, is ineffective. Legally harvested birds 4-5, account for a minor portion of harvest. Reducing the limit to 3, saves approximately 1 gobbler per 15,000 acres of undeveloped land.

4. There is a perceived decline in population, across a multitude of states. These states have a variety of season lengths, start dates, and bag limits. If hunters impact the overall population, why are states with low limits, late start dates, and short seasons on the list?

5. In Alabama, we have been the gold standard for turkey management and turkey culture. There is no denying our system's success. Why then, do we assume our system is suddenly broken? Turkey numbers exploded in this state, with more hunters in the woods, a longer season, and 5 to 6 bird limits. Now, license sales are at an all time low. How can we support a theory, when it contradicts the last 60 years of results?

6. Reducing our opportunities to hunt, affects more than the face value. Hunters and landowners impact turkey populations through habitat management and trapping. Reducing season length or limit, removes incentives for hunters to put as much effort and money into these things. Landowners will see a demonetization of leasing land for turkeys, thus removing incentives for them to provide quality habitat. If this happens on only a small scale, it will far outweigh the handful of gobblers saved per year.

To conclude, I urge you to vote down these proposed changes. Let's see some hard evidence, before we throw 60 years worth of success and culture out the window.

Thank you for your time, and I hope to see you all on March 6th,

I now have sent a letter or e-mailed all on the board apposing the changes in dates and number of harvest. I truly hope each one of you will contact the board before March 6. Below gives you names, addresses and some e-mail addresses.


https://www.outdooralabama.com/site...0addresses%20rev%2010-9-2020%20w-map.pdf