Very informative info

Listen to this podcast and the turkey doc will confirm and dispel several things you thought you knew about the eastern wild turkey. Also backs up what many of us already know that Alabama needs to make some changes for the future of the sport whether you like it or not.

https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-214-gobbling-your-ass-off

This has been discussed on here already in pretty great detail.

And what is that? Not listening to it. But curious what we already know.

The change we need to make is getting rid of chuck Sykes, and yes we all know that.

My bad I looked and didn’t see it I’ll find it and read responses.

The argument is that we need to push the season back and reduce bag limit. Not saying I'm for that necessarily, because I need to see more data, but that's the discussion.

I noticed some guy asked him this question on Twitter:

>>> How much higher is the poult recruitment rate on unhunted land vs similar land that is hunted? I think that is the number you need to publicize.<<<

And this was his response:

>>>We are just beginning a large-scale study on a nonhunted population, and can hopefully answer that question.<<<

So the guy asked a follow-up question:

>>>I would have thought that had been studied long ago. The SC study had lots of info about their nonhunted area, but I couldn't find any mention of the poult recruitment rate on it. I was surprised by that<<<

And this was the reply:

>>>Yes, we've been doing gobbling work there for several years, but only recently secured enough funding to do the reproductive work.<<<

So let me translate that for you: There is still no evidence that legal Spring hunting of gobblers has any effect on poult production. All we have is a theory that has been repeated enough that it is now regarded as The Truth.

Which is what I figured when I posted what I did.

It is beyond comprehension why hunters lay down and take that crap. Believe it. Repeat it. And try to force it on others by saying things like “what we already know”.

Backing season up a week in South Alabama is total bulldoodoo! There's no biological reason! Chuck made that clear when he made the statement that "Bringing in season on a Saturday when everyone is off makes it fair"! In other words damn the guys that work shift work, damn the guys that eat, sleep, live and breathe turkeys that burn our vacation time to ensure we're off for opening day, we're gonna make season open on Saturday so my buddies that work office jobs Monday through Friday will stop bending my ear!

Sorry Chuck, you lost my support and respect with that statement! It was a bulldoodoo move at playing politics with game and fish!

If all hunting is stopped and no one is allowed to ever enter any property we would have more turkeys.

Maybe a brief season from July 4th-July 10th.

I’ve been on that rant too. Starting a turkey season in Chatom, AL and Scottsboro, AL on the same day is insanity.

I drove from Clarke County to the AL/TN border on April 2nd. Shaking my head the whole time. It went from tropical rain forest, full green, to very little spring growth at all.

Changing the opening day to insure it opens on a Saturday was completely idiotic. How would one go about getting the ball rolling to move it back to the 15th?

Dr. B

Even if all hunting were stopped, they don't have any proof that it would lead to any more turkeys other than the 9000 or so that are legally killed each spring. The state biologists tell us that we have over 500,000 in AL, so that legal harvest number seems pretty insignificant.

This map was put out by the Southeastern study group:



This map was produced by some of the same people who are saying that we need to change the harvest, yet are we to believe that nobody ever compared the recruitment rate in the nonhunted areas vs hunted areas? You gotta admit, that seems unlikely. I think it far more likely that the comparisons have been made, and they found no difference, so they don't mention it.

I'd like to see a nesting period rainfall /weather map that overlays this same map....... what is hurting Missouri and Arkansas?

I'm not saying everything the guy said is absolute truth but everything he said about predation is true. I also personally believe the limit should be 3 birds a year.

that'll preach right there

Have we ever gotten an answer on what percentage of the total turkey harvest each spring is made up of #4 and #5 birds?

Why? How did you arrive at 3 birds being an acceptable limit?

I posted this a while back but this is what Chuck sent me...

So, is that chart saying that 4th and 5th birds only accounted for 7% of total number of reported harvests?

Gomer that is how I read it as well. Based upon that data, reducing the limit to 3 would only result in roughly 7% less turkeys killed each season

FIFY

I may be reading the chart wrong because I am not a turkey biologist. The numbers show approximately 400 gobblers taken each year as the 4th and 5th birds. Dividing that by the 67 counties in Alabama a 3 bird limit would save about 6 gobblers per county. I fail to understand how this would have any significant effect on the population.

Not to mention that, just due to the nature of it, most of those 4th and 5th birds are likely killed in the latter half of the season, so they have more than likely already had the chance to breed with multiple hens at that point.

Why stop at 5?
Chuck don't give a schit about biology so why should I?

You guys are just counting the honest hunters who report every bird. For every hunter who uses game check there’s 3 who never report anything for deer and turkey. More people are hunting turkey than ever before in Alabama and predation is on the rise in most counties due to lack of trapping and predator hunting.

If they are already outlaws, they aren’t going to magically start following the law. So no reason to count them. Use some logic man.

[quote=Southwood7]

Personal experience managing my place and seeing the decline in turkey numbers compared to 20 years ago. I manage exclusively for turkey and we have had some lean years in the past 10 years. Turkey hunting wasn’t cool 20 years ago like it is now so the number of hunters was a lot lower. I talked to a biologist this morning who has worked on my place and asked him about this podcast and he agreed with the direction Chamberlain was heading. Anybody who draws any conclusion based on game check numbers is low balling to the highest degree.

I am, logic says that unfortunately the honest folks have to account for the dishonest folks even if that means killing less. Dead turkeys killed by dishonest hunters still amount to dead turkeys. So you agree with a 5 bird limit?

So you think that having more gobblers will produce more poults? A gobblers role in poult production is breeding. That’s it. He doesn’t protect the eggs, sit on the eggs or help raise the poults. Anecdotal evidence you’ve gathered from your property over the years does not justify a state wide lowering of the limit to 3 gobblers. If you feel your property is lean on gobblers, then don’t hunt it next year.

I actually would like the limit to be 1 bird a day. Decoys go back to being outlawed, and a few other things.

Now let’s get back to that logic of yours....... the honest man should kill less because we have to account for the outlaws? So you are saying that saving those 405 birds that the honest man would not have killed last year, those 6 birds per county, will help with a decline in numbers? Really?

If you want to have a 3 bird limit, you’ve stated you have some land you manage for turkeys, so self impose your limit.

Chamberlain and others spout off all these theories as if they are fact. Here’s a fact for you, the only research we have on whether hunters killing gobblers affect the population is history. There is no research other than the success or lack of, across states with similar habitat and different season lengths, bag limits, and start dates. Across this broad spectrum of experiments, from Arkansas to Florida, we have years of data, some seasons are two weeks, some are 7, some limits are 1, some are 5, some come in later, some come in earlier. Want to know the only thing there is in common among all of them? A supposed decline in turkey numbers..... yet, populations in all states were stable or growing up until recently, despite harvest or seasons. Why would something that worked for 50 years, all the sudden not work?

I will never believe that hunter numbers are at an all time low, yet they are the reason that such a successful system suddenly quit working.

You will never convince me that harvesting gobblers affects future numbers, unless a transparent study is performed.

A self appointed “turkey doc’s” theories do not trump years of data and experiment through variations between states.

Seems like most of us, myself included, are looking for the easy button. That simple solution. The quick fix.

It amazes me how quick people are to buy in to Chamberlain’s speculation about seasons being too early as the cause of declines. And adopt it as fact with no real studies to back it up.

I don’t know what the answer is, but I bet it ain’t one simple thing that will bring back the good ole days of turkey hunting.

The only way you'll bring back the good ole days of turkey hunting Is to go back to what made them the good ole days to start with- about 95 percent of people not hunting them.

This

The thing I learned from the podcast was we need a season on great horned owls. Predators are mentioned as a major problem in poult recruitment. Locally, predator control should have a positive effect on turkey populations. That is where I will focus my efforts and trapping nest predators is easy and fun!

As we are proposing regulations here is my proposal. Let anyone that turns in 10 coon, coyote, bobcat, skunk or possum tails in any combination hunt starting March 15th. Give them an extra bird if they turn in 40 tails. Would be a stinking mess at the check in station but I bet we would have more turkeys!

I don’t know about one a day but decoys outlawed, amen.



Not saying I know this is the reason, but it’s a reason it might be different. Hunters are way more effective today than in the previous 50 years. Hunters have better calls to sound more like a turkey. Youtube and the internet have allowed new Hunters to obtain decades worth of experience in a single offseason. I still remember being 11 or 12 years old sitting in Hardee’s in Lee county on an April morning in 1999 or 2000 telling an old timer in there about how a pasture turkey was kicking my butt over and over and over again. He finally pulled me aside and got real quiet and said don’t tell anybody else this, but here’s how you kill that turkey. Take a fan off a turkey you’ve killed, get there early, lay down behind a terrace and as soon as that turkey lands in the pasture, you put that fan up and stick your gun barrel beside it. Sure enough, it worked. Blew my mind. I never would’ve dreamed of doing that. Now almost everybody crawls behind a fan or strutter because they’ve seen videos of it. Don’t get me started on remote control decoys or cellphone-linked trail cams.


Anybody that says hunter numbers are at an all time low isn’t giving it to you straight. We have just as many or more hunters today as we did any year in the 90s. And while we don’t have as many as we did in the 70s, I can guarantee you hunter- hours afield is way higher than it was in the 70s with how affluent our society has become allowing people to travel all over to hunt.

https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/Subpages/LicenseInfo/Hunting.htm

I don’t know if that would make one more turkey, but the highways would sure be cleaner.

Go kill every coon and possum that you can from a piece of property you can and see if you have more poults..

Predator control is huge in nesting success; but it’s a pain in the ass. It’s much easier for “those that know” to gloss over that and just try to tout their theories to lower limits

I couldn’t agree more about predation and we stay after it all year long. I was as pissed as anyone about losing a week this year and I’m not advocating a later start to the season. I think it all contributes to lower numbers and we as sportsmen have to do our best to manage now in our time so our grandchildren can have turkeys to hunt. I’m sure there was a time when nobody thought they would run out of quail to shoot.

A twist on the quail comparison: the numbers ran low enough for hunters to quit hunting them almost altogether years ago, yet we have seen no real rebound whatsoever. I think that any sane person would admit that quail hunters were not a major contributing factor to their decimation. Why is it different for turkeys?

95 percent of the stuff that comes out of that guys mouth is completed fabricated. The only information worth a damn is the gps studies mostly carried out by grad students or whoever else. His “takeaways “ are often at odds with each other.

Much like a politician he comes across very authoritative and confident. Also like a politician - it’s all horseshit.

I think predation was a big cause in the decrease in quail numbers much like turkey. As we continue to manage our place for turkey I have noticed an increase in quail numbers. We don't have huntable numbers on our place but it's not uncommon to see a few coveys. I'm not saying everything Chamberlain is saying is fact but I find it odd that so many people think a wildlife biologist who specializes in wild turkey management is wrong.

I actually agree with a lot said in the podcast. The number of eggs laid to produce another hen is astounding. Even if they move the season back until most hens are already on nests the predators will have the greatest effect on the population. My hypothesis is a trap line will increase turkey numbers (which is my goal) more than reducing the limits and moving back opening day. So I am in favor of encouraging people to trap and against reductions in opportunity.

[/quote]

I think predation was a big cause in the decrease in quail numbers much like turkey. As we continue to manage our place for turkey I have noticed an increase in quail numbers. We don't have huntable numbers on our place but it's not uncommon to see a few coveys. I'm not saying everything Chamberlain is saying is fact but I find it odd that so many people think a wildlife biologist who specializes in wild turkey management is wrong. [/quote]

To clarify my position, I certainly don't think Chamberlain is "wrong" about the facts he has presented. I just object to him and others presenting a theory as if it is a fact, when they don't have any real evidence. It may indeed be that there are places where gobbler hunting is affecting poult recruitment, but they have no evidence to prove it. When any of them actually present the theory, they use a lot of qualifiers like "could be," and "might be," but then they repeat it so often and change seasons because of it and that makes many just accept it as fact. Yet where is the evidence that places that aren't hunted produce more poults than places that are?

I don't think it's unreasonable for hunters and land managers to want to see real evidence before changing procedures that have worked well for over 50 years.

I support this post

Why do predators harm the turkey populations more today than they did 10- 20 years ago. With the exception of the eagle no new predator has emerged, I would think more coons coyotes and possums are trapped and killed now more than ever. Was there a boom in predator numbers if so what caused it?

I know for one thing there are not many coon hunters like there used to be...also, I think the coyote population has definitely increased over the years...

Not very likely. Fur prices have tanked over the last twenty years and the only people trapping or seem to care are turkey hunters. There’s nowhere near the trappers there used to be

Here are the reasons I think the predator population is up. The pelts are not worth much and trapping is a dying art. Coon hunters like to tree coons. Many will simply tree and pull the dog off and move on to tree another. That way the coon can be treed again tomorrow. Killing the coon is not the goal of the hunt,

I did not know a single person that trapped or hunted raccoons 20 yrs ago. Now I trap and know several others that do as well and know more coon hunters now than ever before. So raccoons are the main culprit in turkey populations that appear to have declined in yalls opinion? Has the state done any research into the population of the raccoon and how to address it if it keeps growing and harming other species?

Fur prices crashed way earlier than some of y’all know or remember. The bottom of the market fell out by 1985, 35+ years ago, when Europeans (especially Germans) all but ceased importing furs. While it’s a popular notion, I can assure you the trapping declined that followed didn’t result in an explosion of predators in AL. Trapping in these parts just wasn’t pervasive or intensive—even back then— to control predator populations on a widespread basis.

Intensive predator hunting and trapping may help turkeys, but don’t blame their slump on the lack of a fur market. It ain’t that simple.

This is my thought as well there have always been tons of raccoons not sure why they suddenly hurt the population in places but were not an issue before.

#1. Timber management practices
#2. More turkey hunters than ever before.
#3. Predators. Eagles. Coyote population at an all time high and what few coons hunters there are now don't kill the coons. Everyone used to coons hunt and every kid had a few traps.
#4. Disease. Chicken house litter untreated and spread as fertilizer is a death sentence.

My 2 cents worth!

My opinion is you're spot on with number 1 and 2.
Clearcuts ruin turkey populations. Especially in the 3rd to 6th years of regrowth. They're too thick and turkeys won't use it.
Unfortunately nobody seems to be interested in select cutting timber anymore. It's all about maximum profits.
There's far far far too damn many people harassing turkeys. They ain't all killing turkeys but they're constantly harassing them.

https://ag.tennessee.edu/fwf/craigharper/Documents/BroilerLitter--TimelyTips.pdf

I agree with 2 and 3. While there is evidence that laying house litter may contribute to the spread of blackhead disease it is believed that broiler farms litter doesn’t affect them. As for 1, I have a friend who has a lease that is the worst managed piece of land I’ve ever been on. 90% planted pines, once thinned never burned and it’s overrun with birds. This property is the nastiest piece of property in Henry County and the one time I hunted it this year I had 6 birds hammering at daylight and killed one at 0930.

I am going to date myself as an old fart with this. In the 80's there were numerous boys that trapped. They trapped for coons and fox mostly. There were no coyotes. The profits from selling the pelts bought beer, guns and other things they needed. It was the wintertime version of the kid with the gas can and lawnmower walking through the neighborhood. Trappers traveled to the South in the month of February and trapped coon, fox, bobcats and beaver. Those guys camped out in a trailer park near my childhood home and the number of pelts they had drying at any one time was incredible. It was a very profitable venture. Now I look at my trapping efforts and I am a wannabe. Most of the guys I know that trap will catch 10-20 coon/possum and mostly trap because they are eating corn out of the deer feeder.

In the past Delta Waterfowl did a lot of research on nest predation and the effects of trapping on nest success. Intensively trapping a tract had a very positive effect on the numbers of eggs hatched and raised to adult ducks. Both species are ground nesters and have the same predators. Maybe those studies have been done for turkeys. If anyone is aware of any please point me in the right direction to read them.

North40R is dead on. I'm going to forewarn y'all that this is a long rant so I don't blame any of y'all for ignoring my unsolicited opinions! My Father started taking me turkey hunting since I was old enough to walk. Back in those days we never deer hunted and I grew up fall and spring turkey hunting. Fast forward 30 plus years and I am still consumed with everything turkey and the people who know me can attest to that. I'm lucky enough to be able to spend most mornings in the spring woods and have noticed several things over the years. I also hunt several other states each spring and have some experience in comparing their current situations to ours. There's several others on this forum who have much more experience than myself but through conversation seem to notice some of the same things I'm observing. I have these type of discussions with several close friends who are also avid turkey hunters and these are some of the things we have been discussing.

1) Timber Management Practices- No doubt I think this is probably the main concern and my forester friends who are avid turkey hunters agree. The reason is two fold imo. First is lack of diverse habitat through large tracts of pine monoculture and new forestry practices associated with this. This is especially evident in certain regions of South Alabama and especially the Western and SW portions of the state. There are much less mass producing hardwoods forests scattered and many more areas of large scale corporate timber land. I hunt different types of land across the state and the properties that have a high diversity of high quality turkey habitat consistently hold a higher density of turkeys that seem to roam much less than other areas with less desirable habitat. Second, not only are these types of habitats less conducive to turkeys but in turn are more conducive to predators. So now we are dealing with habitats requiring turkeys to to move longer distances to find suitable habitat, and in turn hold more predators. I don't care what ppl say about how coyotes don't affect turkeys, From my experience and the ppl I know who raise turkeys, coyotes are an absolute problem for hens when they are sitting on the nest. When those hens are sitting they are very vulnerable and if a coyote gets a hen on the next he is also getting all the eggs. Due to the current state of fur prices and boom of predators, unless ppl take on trapping themselves the predators are likely to continue to be a concern.

2) Hunter Pressure- When I started turkey hunting it was nothing to get permission to turkey hunt. We were almost viewed as outcasts who would rather hunt a turkey than a deer. Boy has that changed over the years! As most of you can probably attest it is almost impossible to get turkey rights to a place anymore. People have gotten so passionate about turkey hunting the idea of subleasing turkey rights has become almost non negotiable. Most of the hunting clubs that used to be primarily composed of deer hunters are now likely to have at least 50% of the membership who turkey hunt. Because of this they are unwilling to lease out rights and in turn now you have a much higher turkey hunter density on a tract of land. Although I agree with the science that if you have successful poult production gobbler harvest shouldn't matter, but now with the use of extremely realistic decoys, ground blinds, and trail cams it's not very difficult for the average guy to go out and shoot a couple turkeys regardless of experience or calling ability. Additionally, a piece of property can hunt many more deer hunters than turkey hunters. A 2,000 acre tract of land can be hunted pretty quickly by just one or two guys turkey hunting and I'm seeing properties like this with 8-10 guys trying to hunt. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to people who will say "yea I've killed a couple on my place that only I can hunt and I'm done hunting there " to go on and say "But I'm going down to the club and I'm going to kill all I can because I know if I don't the other guys will". I hear this same type of conversation on public lands as well. Because our state has very liberal bag limits those numbers can add up very quickly with the increased amount of hunters in the woods on the properties that don't regulate the amount of turkeys killed. For some reason deer management seems to be all the rage today with well managed lands limiting deer harvest through age and sex restrictions. I can't tell you how many leased properties have rules that limit buck and doe harvests although the state regulations allow a much higher harvest. They do this because they know there's only a finite number of deer and especially mature deer on the property. In order to sustain quality harvest over the years they must limit deer harvest according the limitations of the property. However, most of these properties seem to have a far less strict approach on turkey management on an animal that imo is far more susceptible to outside factors than deer. I again go on to say I am fine with the limits in place with the state but people need to understand that you 8 other hunters cannot kill their 5 turkeys on the same 2500 acre tract, it's just not sustainable. The turkey limits in place are fine as long as over harvest isn't occurring on site specific properties. No property is created equally and harvest regulations need to be regulated on a per property basis. The government cannot do this (except maybe on specific public lands with the proper data) but until people begin to manage turkey harvest on a per property basis I think we will always be concerned with turkey numbers.

I know I've rambled on forever and most of you won't read or give a crap about anything I have to say but I'm very passionate about turkeys and turkey hunting. I love the turkey hunting culture our state has and I think a reason we have this culture is due to our long season and liberal bag limits. However, I'm afraid that due to things out of our control on a large scale (timber management, ag practices, predators) unless we start hunting these birds with a more conservation minded approach it is inevitable that the state will eventually shorten the season and limits in order to try and mitigate declining numbers.

Some of the better places I’ve had access to hunt was just about all pines.

Land use changes has had more of an effect on the turkey populations in our area than anything else. Those big peanut fields where we use to see flocks of 50 to 75 birds feeding in late winter after a rain are planted in long leaf now. Those huge pines and oaks where turkeys use to roost have long since gone to the saw mill. The dogwoods are mostly all gone, turkeys love dogwood berries. It is not just turkeys. IMO wildlife populations in general are just not what they were. I have been on the same land for 33 years. It has been a long time since I have seen a turkey track on our place.

Very well said. As a wildlife professional, I agree 100%.

Don’t shoot hens. Control nest predators.

Habitat - turkey can adapt to diverse changing habitat just fine. They just don’t like people and houses very much.
Hunting pressure - shoot gobblers.

Y’all make stuff way too complicated.