Contact the DCNR

I’m not trying to go “49er” on y’all but I am pissed off that the CAB voted to take turkey hunting days away from us for no biological reason. In case you missed it the CAB voted to move the turkey opener to the 3rd Saturday in March from now on. Fred Harders, the assistant director of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries had this to say about the change....

“It’s a day that just about everybody has off,” Harders said. “If it comes in on a Thursday and you’re in a hunting club where you’re the only person who can get off on Thursday, it gives you a big advantage over everybody else.”

So...... NO biological reason for making the change. Just taking days away so Fred and his buddies can hunt opening day. Anyway, I’m going to send these clowns an email every day until I get a response back from them. Here is Fred’s contact info:

Fred Harders, Assistant Director
(334) 242-3465
dcnr.wffdirector@dcnr.alabama.gov

I voiced my opinions on the subject after that meeting adjourned. They seemed confused when I shot holes in their “logic.” I spoke to several and even the ones on the board that are “looking out for us” didn’t have a problem with it changing.

By all means flood them with calls and emails. I told them that they would get some serious pushback from it, but they acted like I didn’t know what I was talking about.

I wish Aunt Bea would kick Chuckies sorry arse out and be done with it. I think hes the root of most all of the BS coming out of the CAB and DCNR

That little ainsworth fucker gonna be gov next. Then weee all screwed

Harders said. “If it comes in on a Thursday and you’re in a hunting club where you’re the only person who can get off on Thursday, it gives you a big advantage over everybody else.”


Fred Harders, Assistant Director
(334) 242-3465
dcnr.wffdirector@dcnr.alabama.gov[/quote]

Thats exactly right! That's the reward shift workers get for working weekends when everyone else is off! And the reason the die hards save vacation every year!

They aren't worried about making the majority happy just the chosen few that pull the strings!

Thats exactly right! That's the reward shift workers get for working weekends when everyone else is off! And the reason the die hards save vacation every year!

They aren't worried about making the majority happy just the chosen few that pull the strings![/quote]



You get it, life is full of choices , blow all your vacation days in Gulf Shores or save some for killin' stuff. It ain't hard.

CAB has the " everybody gets a trophy" mentality .

March 2020, it looks like the 3rd Saturday would be March 21st?? We lose 6 days of a 45 day season! That really sucks. 13% fewer days to hunt in 2020.

But the good news is that the limit will be down to 2 by then so you won't need those days anyway.

chris.blankenship@dcnr.alabama.gov

dcnr.wffdirector@dcnr.alabama.gov

dcnr.wffdirector@dcnr.alabama.gov

Blankenship, Sykes and Harders all got an email from me. Y’all send them them a quick note instead of us just bitching amongst ourselves.

Just curious, what are y’all saying in these emails? I probably should refrain from saying what I want to say.

A major turkey study is underway in the south east as many of y'all know. ....And it's pointing heavily towards laters season openers. Prescribed burning practices are in question. Turkey fertility/breeding cycle is in question. Of course predation is a major issue. I think this is the tip of the iceberg........ but I hope I'm incorrect.

Y'all should be more pissed off that a person sitting on the Advisory Board who brought up this turkey stuff and voted on all other proposals resigned her board seat just a couple of weeks after this May meeting because she was moving to Georgia.

Y'all really believe at the time of the Board meeting that she didn't know she was going to resign and move just weeks later? Or that anyone else at DCNR or involved with the Board didn't know?

The Board has had meetings and votes in the past with a member absent for whatever reason. Her sitting in the meeting, making proposals and voting on issues but then resigning just weeks later reeks of BS.

Bingo.

She resigned her city council seat within days of the CAB debacle . She knew dang well she was leaving Alabama. Far as I know she was the only CAB member ever from Jackson County, what a disappointment. Chuck gonna have to look long and hard to replace a puppet like her.

I was in a club in Lee County back in the early to mid 2000's and me and another member killed turkeys that had receivers on their legs. We drove to the Barbour County management area cuz that was the closest one we knew of and turned them in. The GW there told us AU was doing a study and this was vital that they got these back. He also told us we would get information back on these if we gave him our information. So we did, and 15 years later we are still waiting.
If I ever kill another one I will take it to anyone besides a state employee and have them get the information for me even if I have to pay to have this done.

I guess my point is these studies have been going for a long time whether they publicize them or not and they are gonna hide the information every time.

Of all the people that could represent us, I'd like to know how she got on the board and I'd also like to know who pushed her to bring that stooopid chit up! I'm starting March 1....screw'em.

Chuck Sykes is the answer to both your queries , they were very cozy well before she was on the CAB.

You talk too much!......

That's all I got to say about that!

Turkey hunting is to be done in April imo. Got no problem with the date change.

Things like this cause the average guy to lose all confidence in our system. The turkey study may be completely on the up and up, but I will always doubt it because of so many questionable practices by the dcnr brass. I don't know if they don't understand that, or just don't care.

Well, you’re probably the only one. I love the first two weeks of the season.

Nope. Extremely short sighted comment. Every acre of AL south of Hwy 80 should start earlier than March 15, not later.

Pretty much. When the birds are henned up opening weekend, it started too late:

[quote=Clem]
Y'all should be more pissed off that a person sitting on the Advisory Board who brought up this turkey stuff and voted on all other proposals resigned her board seat just a couple of weeks after this May meeting because she was moving to Georgia.

Y'all really believe at the time of the Board meeting that she didn't know she was going to resign and move just weeks later? Or that anyone else at DCNR or involved with the Board didn't know?

The Board has had meetings and votes in the past with a member absent for whatever reason. Her sitting in the meeting, making proposals and voting on issues but then resigning just weeks later reeks of BS.


Jessica Butler was born in Molena, GA and moved to Scottsboro in 2013. How she even get on the CAB only being here a few years?

No joke. Wouldn’t hurt my feelings if they moved the season back to start beginning of March and go out middle of April.

Thats when ours starts and and the WMA's I hunt produces as much or more than the southern zones. I remember the southern zone always starting on March 20th for alot of years.

I love the first two weeks of March.

Nope, he's not the only one that likes April. I'll hunt all season, but April has always been my best month.

When I said, “you’re probably the only one” I was referring to ben saying he has no problem with the date change. I do favor the first two weeks of the season but I don’t want wanna I lose ANY hunting days. I can’t believe y’all are ok with losing 6 days in 2020???

I never said I was ok with losing days.

^^^^That’s a good one. I bet the hunting pressure is light even on public land👍

I got a response from my emails:



I was forwarded several emails from you today, one of which came from the Commissioner’s office, and I have been asked to respond to your concerns. I see that they are all centered around the change in the opening day of turkey season for the upcoming year. The spring opening date change from March 15 to the 3rd Saturday in March was a recommendation proposed by the Conservation Advisory Board. To be clear, the recommendation was not proposed by ADCNR Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries Division (WFF) wildlife biologists. The first priority with our staff in recommending changes to season regulations is the wildlife resource in which we a deemed responsible for managing. If a later opening had been proposed by our staff, it would likely have been later than the 3rd Saturday in March based on preliminary data. Our WFF Wild Turkey Committee, in cooperation with researchers at Auburn University, has developed wild turkey prediction models using current biological data such as reproduction, survival, and harvest rates to predict future populations under various season and bag limit alternatives. Although this work is not yet complete, indications are pointing to a later opening and reduced bag limit as the optimal alternative to produce the most viable populations. We are currently updating the model and will include data gleaned from the current AU research project when it concludes next year. Besides the observed decline in population growth as evidenced by our statewide brood surveys and harvest trends, harvest intensity in the first couple weeks of the spring season may play a role in reducing the potential of hens being bred.

I am looking at the turkey season and bag limit recommendations through three pair of glasses. First as a turkey hunter with 40 years of experience here in Alabama. Secondly, as a college educated wildlife biologist with more than 25 years of on-the-ground experience of managing tens of thousands of acres in Alabama. And finally, as the Director of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries whose job is to manage, protect, conserve, and enhance the wildlife and aquatic resources of Alabama for the sustainable benefit of the people of Alabama. As a selfish turkey hunter, I want as many days afield as I can get regardless of the negative impact it could have on the resource. As a biologist, I want the season to start in April as the biological data suggests which would be best for the resource. As the Director, I have to weigh the consequences of both sides before I make recommendations.

As you said in your email, “ I’m personally not concerned about the hunter who isn’t “off work” until Saturday, when the season opens up during the week. If it mattered to that guy, he could schedule his vacation time accordingly like the rest of us do that enjoy weekday hunting. “ I’d be willing to bet that the hunter you mentioned prior is not concerned about your issues of, “My children’s spring break normally coincides with the 15th opener. I know that all school district calendars are not the same, but it matters to us. Competitive kids spring sports; baseball, softball, soccer, dance and cheer almost all involve weekend travel these days”. Although these season changes may be inconvenient for some of our hunters, our focus is maintaining sustainable populations of wild turkeys, while providing hunting opportunities for all Alabamians, now and in the future.

Thank you for your input and I hope I have adequately addressed all of your concerns.


Chuck Sykes
Director
Wildlife & Freshwater Fisheries Division

I got a response that I will post as well. Y’all get ready for a 3 bird limit.

A lot of info in that email excep one thing. The real reason.

It's nice that you got a response, T-town.

If there was any doubt before, that email should eliminate it - they are gonna reduce the length of the season and the limit. And it will be justified by a computer model that "may" indicate that some hens are not being bred because of the timing of the season opener.

There might indeed be places with so few gobblers that there are none around to breed the hens when they needed it. The historical solution to that has been to start the season later in those places. In places where you hear multiple gobblers throughout the season it defies common sense to believe that hens aren't being bred due to hunting.

Oh well, government doesn't have to use common sense.

The new studies preliminary findings are not friendly for turkey hunters. As much as it pains me I think sweeping changes are coming.

From that response:

The spring opening date change from March 15 to the 3rd Saturday in March was a recommendation proposed by the Conservation Advisory Board. To be clear, the recommendation was not proposed by ADCNR Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries Division (WFF) wildlife biologists. The first priority with our staff in recommending changes to season regulations is the wildlife resource in which we a deemed responsible for managing.

IF this is true, IF putting the resource comes first, IF the WWF biologists' recommendations are different from the Advisory Board AND the Board is not the End-All Be-All Decider of whatever happens then the DCNR Commissioner should not have approved this turkey season change.


But when the February deer season in North Alabama was approved it was clear that "what's best for the resource" isn't the top priority.

What ticks me off about Chuckies response is they are proposing nearly the same season and bag limit for us that Georgia has had for a very long time. Georgia is very similar in habitat as us. They are also experiencing a decline in population even though they have a later season opener and 3 bird limit. I’m sure the state of Georgia have people with similar credentials as Chuckie managing their natural resources as well. What they are doing isn’t working at all to increase their population and still experiencing a decline. What makes him think Alabama is going to be any different? If I were the one that received that reply my follow up email would point out this information and ask him why he thinks Alabama is going to be different than Georgia with a similar management approach. In my opinion there is a bigger issue behind the secense to be like our neighbors and copy their failed management philosophy.

I consider myself a law abiding citizen of this state and have always tried to do the right thing. If they are going to get stupid with our turkey season I might have to reconsider my way of thinking on that matter.

And as far as I’m concerned Chuckie needs to go!! He has to many personal beliefs that he’s imposing on our season and game laws.

Click reply.

Type Dear Chuck,

People in general don't want to stray very far from the accepted norm. Short seasons and low limits are the norm in other states, and their agency leaders see AL as backwards in our game management system. The desire of our leadership is to make us like everyone else. Looks like they will.

Here is my response.... Catch me if you can!

I've seen a lot of vague statements like this posted; can you be more specific? What could they possibly have discovered that is not hunter friendly? The gobblers still don't sit on the eggs or assist with raising poults. It's hard to imagine what they might have found on the hard hunted public land they are studying that applies to the whole state.

I've hunted the same property for 54 years. Populations have gone up and down depending on our habitat, but I have never seen any evidence that hunting did anything but help the turkey population. And right now it's up. It's produced more gobblers the past 2 years than it ever has. I don't see the crisis here.

The response I got was very similar but not exactly....keep in mind that I quoted the assistant directors comments in the Tuscaloosa news article in my emails and he had no comment on that.


Mr. Cockrell,
I was forwarded several emails from you today, one of which came from the Commissioner’s office, and I have been asked to respond to your concerns. I see that they are all centered around the change in the opening day of turkey season for the upcoming season. This quote was taken from your email addressed to specifically to me, “I realize that the CAB makes this recommendations but can’t you, as the director over rule them?” As you stated, the recommendation was not proposed by ADCNR Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries Division (WFF) wildlife biologists. However, we do not make the regulations. We can make recommendations to the Commissioner and the Board, but we can’t over rule them. So, ultimately, it is their decision.

Here’s another quote from you in an email simply addressed to whom it may concern, “ I wish we had leadership in the DCNR that wouldn’t allow major changes like this to seasons without a concrete biological reason.” Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it. The first priority with our staff in recommending changes to season regulations is the wildlife resource in which we are deemed responsible for managing. If a later opening had been proposed by our staff, it would likely have been later than the 3rd Saturday in March based on preliminary data. Our WFF Wild Turkey Committee, in cooperation with researchers at Auburn University, has developed wild turkey prediction models using current biological data such as reproduction, survival, and harvest rates to predict future populations under various season and bag limit alternatives. Although this work is not yet complete, indications are pointing to a later opening and reduced bag limit as the optimal alternative to produce the most viable populations. We are currently updating the model and will include data gleaned from the current AU research project when it concludes next year. Besides the observed decline in population growth as evidenced by our statewide brood surveys and harvest trends, harvest intensity in the first couple weeks of the spring season may play a role in reducing the potential of hens being bred.

The final quote of yours I’d like to respond to came specifically to me, “I am just very disappointed that we would allow a change like this based on someone’s agenda rather than abound biological reason.” I am looking at the turkey season and bag limit recommendations through three pair of glasses. First as a turkey hunter with 40 years of experience here in Alabama. Secondly, as a college educated wildlife biologist with more than 25 years of on-the-ground experience of managing tens of thousands of acres in Alabama. And finally, as the Director of Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries whose job is to manage, protect, conserve, and enhance the wildlife and aquatic resources of Alabama for the sustainable benefit of the people of Alabama. As a selfish turkey hunter, I want as many days afield as I can get regardless of the negative impact it could have on the resource. As a biologist, I want the season to start in April as the biological data suggests which would be best for the resource. As the Director, I have to weigh the consequences of both sides before I make recommendations. Although these season changes may be inconvenient for our hunters, me included, our focus is maintaining sustainable populations of wild turkeys, while providing hunting opportunities for all Alabamians, now and in the future.
Thank you for your input and I hope I have adequately addressed all of your concerns.

Chuck Sykes

Director

Wildlife & Freshwater Fisheries Division

I thought it was pretty comical that he told me to “be careful what I wish for, I just might get it”

Oh No! He’s threatening me with wildlife decisions based on science!!!! 😂😂😂😂

Just a thought, too: Sykes is responding to these emails, which is good instead of ignoring them or foisting them off to an underling, but surely y'all don't believe he's the absolute only one who decided or mandated or is making these changes?

Also, looking through three pair of glasses isn't good for your eyes. You could end up like this:

Reminds me. I need a new pair of running shoes before next year.

I think it's pretty clear that if we want sound biological decisions being made in regards to the game and fish in this state, we are going to need a new director. No email or call any of us send is going to sway the opinion of this out of touch, arrogant, asshat. I think we would probably all be better served by emailing Kay Ivey and asking her to make the change since she is the one who ultimately appoints the director.

Yep

Actually the guvner appoints the commissioner, not the director.

The governor appoints the commissioner and the Conservation Advisory Board. Apppointees "serve at the pleasure of the governor" and can be dismissed at any time for any reason.

The director is hired like any other state employee.


Think about that: the Advisory Board is appointed by the governor, as is the Commissioner - who can accept or reject the "recommendations" of the Advisory Board.

His Daddy didn't whip his arse enough when he was growing up. Arrogant prick.

Interesting, and I stand corrected. I still think approaching this through the governor has a better chance of success than dealing with Chuckie. So who determines if Chuckie needs to be fired and replaced?

Looks like we have a pattern , the Feb deer season extension for NA comes to mind . Sorry fellers, just couldn't help myself.

Chuck is an arrogant POS. He can go F himself.

Well, ol Chuck is right about one thing. Be careful what you wish for.
I used to have heated arguments with Corky and Riley.
Corky was the most stubborn, hard headed, stuck in the mud SOB I ever met.
But I sure do miss them two jackasses.
They both weighed their options, told the truth and didn't seem to have a personal agenda.

I am no college-educated wildlife biologist like Chuck is but I do know what i have witnessed at our hunting club in Sumter County. 20 years ago we had a lot more mixed Timber than we do now and I have an old journal where we recorded hunt observations. If you didn't hear 10 or 12 a day they just weren't Gobbling very good. Now I would doubt there's 10 or 12 gobblers on the whole property. So much young cut over that the birds are relegated to the smzs along the creeks and that property cant support the number of birds it did when it was mixed timber.

Despite what may be presented, these changes are being pushed from somewhere besides the CAB. It can only be the department. There were 4 CAB members that voted against the limit reduction, I have talked to them all and they seem steady against changes without biological evidence to support it. Ben Stimson and Raymond Jones are solid guys with good sense and biological knowledge. I believe Pat Cagle is for science supported recommendations also. That science does not include computer models to tell us how to set regulations! I think Grady Hartzog is also thinking practically. Many of you may know Tim Woods from Selma. He was just appointed and is also a solid guy with good sense. If we can keep these 5 guys from voting against changing limits and season dates, we should be able to hold the line. I would also note that they are all heavily involved with the Alabama Wildlife Federation and get sound information from folks there. I would recommend contacting them by phone, email, and/or letters and voicing your opinion whatever it may be.

Thank you for the information gobbler. I am done emailing or contacting Chuck about anything that’s for sure.

This is the kind of letters the CAB is getting from somewhere. We should voice our concerns to the CAB AND the Commissioner similarly and accordingly.

Alabama Conservation Advisory Board,
2018, marks the forty first year (41st) of my turkey hunting career in Alabama, where I hold a Lifetime Hunting License. During an average year I will turkey hunt forty (40) days, in Alabama. The majority of my Alabama turkey hunting career has been spent guiding turkey hunters. I spent sixteen (16) years as a Turkey Guide, for White Oak Plantation in Tuskegee, AL, where I guided hunters, outdoor writers, industry personnel, and a most of the NWTF Executives of that era. I hunted with Dr. James Earl Kennamer many years, but always took time to talk about turkeys every time he was at White Oak Plantation. Currently, I average hunting between 10-12 Alabama Counties, helping others and teaching them lessons I have learned.

Both my exposure and success as a guide have afforded me many opportunities and insights, shared by very few turkey hunters in Alabama. One such opportunity, was to sit with Lovett E. Williams, Jr. (Wildlife Biologist), during a panel discussion and interview for Turkey and Turkey Hunting Magazine. History will show Lovett Williams knew more about the Wild Turkey than anyone else. One of his assertions was, “it takes five thousand (5,000) turkey eggs to produce one (1) five-year old gobbler”. Lovett told me his assertion took the following factors into account, sterile eggs, nest predation, poult predation, deaths resulting from weather hazards, and hunter harvest.

As a turkey hunting guide, I averaged harvesting or helping others harvest nineteen (19) turkeys each year. The most I have ever been a part of harvesting in a single Alabama Spring Season was twenty-six (26), and I typically see nine (9) harvested by April 1 each year. I have either harvested or helped others harvest turkeys in Alabama, every day between March 15, and April 30, but the single day I have seen more birds harvested than any other is April 6. I attribute the success of April 6 to weather, photo period, and breeding cycle, which all generate the typical turkey behavior everyone talks about.

I am keenly aware of site specifics such as, habitat, nest and bird predation, and hunting pressure all have on turkeys and ultimately hunter success. I am also aware of an increase in an early season tactic called “Reaping” where a hunter takes a full fan and starts crawling forward toward a gobbler. This tactic triggers a fighting response which is typical behavior for a gobbler, and typically occurs prior to the breeding cycle. Additionally, there are a growing number of license holders who like to hunt turkeys, but are not turkey hunters. Those individuals typically rely on deer season patterns of turkeys and will go sit on a food plot with a decoy positioned in gun range, and wait. They sit waiting on a gobbler to approach the decoy so they can kill the gobbler. These individuals are utilizing food plots because the grass height is still short enough for birds to utilize the plot all day. Turkeys will remain in a winter pattern until the hens start migrating towards nesting and brood rearing habitat. So, I ask you why are these individuals having success. I submit the reason is due to the timing occurring prior to the hens being bred.

With the Alabama Spring Turkey Season opening every year on March 15, and the crazy weather patterns I have monitored for 41 years prior to April 1, I am convinced Alabama turkey hunters are harvesting gobblers before they have a chance to breed the majority of hens (5,000 to 1). Both Dr. James Earl Kennamer and Lovett Williams told me many years ago, breeding is triggered by photo period and temperature.

I am recommending the Conservation Advisory Board adjust the Alabama Spring Turkey Season opening day from March 15 every year, to the third (3rd) Saturday in March every year and run forty-seven (47) days from that date. The earliest opening date would be March 15, and the latest opening date would be March 21. Adjusting the opening date would allow your Annual Renewal License holders, and Non-Resident License holders, to hunt the first two days of the season every year. Another benefit is, commercial lodges will always be able to set their first full hunt, for what is typically their best customers. Additionally, adjusting the date would provide the gobbler as much time as I believe would be tolerable to both you, and the license holders in Alabama. Personally, I would like to see Turkey Season open somewhere between March 25 and April 1, but do not believe that is acceptable.

Having been exposed to the people I have and the opportunities I have had, I am also convinced the Alabama Bearded Gobbler bag limit should be reduced from five (5) to three (3), and only one (1) per day. No other state has a bag limit of five (5), and only two other states have a bag limit of four (4). Most states bag limit is between one (1) and three (3).

I am aware of the testing and research Auburn University is conducting in Alabama. I am not optimistic the Auburn University study will produce conclusive data, due to the small geographic footprint compared to the size of Alabama and the distance from the Gulf of Mexico to the Tennessee State Line, combined with the length of time required to conclude that study. Personally, I believe the time to act is now, and we cannot wait on the results of the data.

Currently, the Wild Turkey is the Number 2 Wildlife Resource in the State of Alabama. As soon as Chronic Wasting Disease is discovered in Alabama, the Wild Turkey could easily become the Number 1 Wildlife Resource in Alabama. Even if the Wild Turkey remains the Number 2 Wildlife Resource, you are a Conservation Advisory Board Member, and you are charged with protecting the Wildlife Resources of the State of Alabama, regardless of opposition or popularity. I challenge you to do your job as an advocate for the Wild Turkeys in Alabama.

I will be attending the next CAB Meeting to personally address my concerns of season dates and bag limit. Please pass along my concerns to the entire Conservation Advisory Board.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

Who wrote that foolishness ? Sounds like Jessica Butler's playbook.

Feller who wrote that is one of those holier than tho turkey snobs. Fanning and "deer hunting" turkeys on a plot are legal , if a hunter wants to do it , it's his business.

If we are killing the gobblers before they get a chance to breed , how does changing from March 15 to the 3rd Saturday solve that problem?

From a previous thread. The proposal was presented. Do we have any "numbers and data" yet?

All of this is going to end badly for us.

My guess is that will never be available to the public. It's too "complex" for the peasant hunters of the state to comprehend



No doubt about it.

At least in that diatribe that gobbler posted above the goober recommended keeping the total season length at 47 days. That would push us into May for a few days depending on how the calendar falls. Under the new regs, we are still ending at the end of April so the season length will be shortened by 1-6 days depending on the year.

Matt Brock responded to this last night and this morning I see the post is gone. I can’t rememebr what he said word for word but he did say he isn’t on the turkey committee anymore.

They kicked him off the committee cause he's so rough on turkeys himself. Kills limits before April and such.

I’m not even convinced a 3 bird limit will decrease harvest. That’s something that doesn’t even get discussed.

The guy that wrote the holier than thou rant to the CAB, just confirmed what I’ve been thinking anyway. Do you think he will see fewer turkey die if the limit is 3. No he won’t. He will only see two less down the end of his own barrel. Same for me. All the gobbling and willing to die turkey on my place will still die. Just killed by my kids or a friend or relative. Gobbling turkey in the Spring get themselves killed one way or the other.

This is all I need to know, They start breeding before season and I've seen them breed a hen all the way into first part of June. There is no perfect time because every year is different IMO
[/img]
[/img]

You can’t have the same starting dates for Clarke vs Laudedale County, or Barbour vs Jackson. Without zones, which apparently nobody wants, somebody is gonna start early, and others late.

But I’ve said multiple times, everything south of Hwy 80 should be March 15 or earlier. No reason at all those counties should change or go later.

You are right; it won't make a bit of difference in the world. Birds #4 and 5 make up a tiny segment of the harvest. Even if people would pay any attention to it, most of those turkeys would just get killed by someone else. But like those who push gun control, it will make some folks feel better because we are "doing something" about the perceived problem. It doesn't matter to them whether it works or not.

Reducing the season on the front end might result in a lower overall harvest. Any time hunters are in the woods, some hens will be killed. I am not convinced that such a move is really needed, but that at least would have an impact. I suspect that the guide guy's idea of moving the season into May might do more harm than having those days in March. Hunters roaming the woods in May and bumping hens off their nests could be worse for the flock than the few hens being shot in March.

Thanks for the info, gobbler. A reduced limit and a season that always opens on Saturday is ideal for those who offer commercial hunts. I can understand why that guy wants the changes. No reason to let rednecks kill those extra turkeys when they can sell them to someone. After reading that letter, it gives us a much better understanding of what is going on here. It's always follow the money.

He also said the turkey season recommendation th eCAB voted on was not recommended by the WWF biologists.

That's two people - him and Sykes - saying this season change proposal did not come from the department's biologists.

It's clearly being pushed by outside interests to the CAB.


As for zones, for turkeys that wouldn't bother me a bit. As noted above what happens in Jackson or Lauderdale counties is in no way the same as what's going on in Baldwin or Clarke or Barbour counties on March 15.

Just a quick point - we already have zones for turkey season and we have for decades. There are some counties that don't come in until April 1. This is the way the department has always managed turkey season; places with fewer turkeys get a shorter season.

Adjusting the season length in places where there aren't many turkeys is exactly what the department is supposed to do. Adjusting it to fulfill the desires of commercial lodges is exactly what they are not supposed to do.

I can't do it today, but I will write a letter to the CAB and the commissioner. I'd encourage everyone else to do the same. And remember that every member of the CAB was appointed by a Republican governor - do you think that heavy government restrictions on hunting fit in best with Republican ideas or Democratic ideas? I think we all know the answer to that and intend to pound it in my letter.

PCP, haven’t you been asking for several years now how many hunters kill 5 birds? If we lower the limit to 3 it would be nice to know how may gobblers we might be “saving”. And if we have a few extra gobblers around by reducing the limit or shortening the season is that really going to result in a better hatch and more poults?
I am no biologist and I won’t pretend to be one. All I want is seasons and bag limits set by people who have no agenda and ONLY care about the resource. Unfortunately it seems like this is too much to ask.

Yeah, I've been wondering about that a long time. And fortunately, we can now know exactly how many legally killed gobblers would be "saved" by reducing the limit to 3. Anyone who has access to the GC numbers could look it up for us. The thing is, ALL of the legally killed gobblers are listed right there, and if it wasn't reported then it wasn't legal. It seems very likely to me that hunters that won't participate in GC are not gonna be affected at all by a lower season limit, so in this particular case the GC numbers will be 100% accurate.

I would guess that the number is under 100. I would also guess that information will continue to be a closely guarded secret.

Thanks for bringing it up; I will ask them that question in my letter. Maybe someone on the CAB will demand the answer.

Wow Brian! Pretty good!

Nope. All you need is a HECS suit. It works on wardens too. Theyll never see you! Trust me. Youll be fine.

Maybe if we bombard his dumb butt with complaints and letters they will reverse course like they did a few years back when they banned fall hunting and then gave it right back.

Chuck alone can’t do that. He didn’t make the recommendation and does not have authority over the CAB and Commissioner.

You could certainly include him in the letters and emails bombarding the CAB members, the Commissioner, and make sure to include the Chief wildlife section Keith Gauldin, Assistant Chief Chris Smith, and especially, Assistant chief Amy Silvano.

Well, in the posted letter, it is obvious the guy has knowledge of things and his exact proposal was what was pitched to the CAB and discussed there. That doesn't mean the pushing is not coming from the Department, Chuck is not the only one that has discussions with the CAB, whether he likes the proposal or not. There are others in high enough positions with ears to talk to that may like lower limits and shorter seasons. I honestly don't know. In addition, there may be some pushing from Auburn? Don't know, just theorizing! Just to clarify, Matt said it was not recommended by the turkey committee. Every other WFF biologist may have talked to the CAB members and supported the reg changes. I know Matts story is sound as far as I have heard - the turkey committee was not part of the "push" for this regulation change.

I believe all this is being pushed by hunting lodges. In the Letter posted earlier, the "41yr Turkey Hunter" references his guiding of hunters and that BY OPENING ON THE THIRD SATURDAY, LODGES WOULD BE ABLE TO SAVE THE OPENER FOR A FULL WEEKEND FOR THEIR BEST CLIENTS.

Feb. 10th in the North Zone was approved because of DreamRanch and this turkey season change is for the benefit of all hunting lodges in the state. Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

Exactly!

If you own a hunting lodge and your best clients only are able to go on the weekends, you won't be in business very long. Any reduction in opportunity or hunting days would not benefit a commercial operation

This right here.

And moving the opening date, by 7 or less days, will have zero effect on breeding, either.

That is correct. The turkey committee nor our staff (Chuck included) proposed the changes.

I'll bet good $ Chuck Sykes had full knowledge Ms. Butler was gonna make the two motions about bag limits and moving the opener to 3rd Saturday at her last CAB meeting . I''ll also bet he gave her the go ahead.

You’d lose your money.

I doubt it. I don't believe she'd made that move without running it by yer bossman.

You have to decide who you think has the most influence in all of this...

Money is the answer......... now what was the question?

Almost always, just go with the default.......follow the $.

And we are supposed to believe that Chuck isn't on the side of wealth and influence?

Nope, not if you don’t want to but trust the fact that 2 employees are on here telling you what we know. Doing so on a public forum probably isn’t the best idea but here we are.

Well can you or Matt PM me so I can know which codsucker(s) we need to write our letters too? I want whoever had the lady from Jackson County in their back pocket

You need to send your concerns to Chuck, the commissioner, and the CAB.

But again, the changes were not proposed by DCNR.

Yep had nothing to do with deer numbers. More doing favors to get pockets lined with cash or other exclusive benefits.

Unfortunately, people like Ainsworth, high-fence owners with money, upper-crust with money, legislators, people with money who put pressure on legislators and the DCNR for their agendas, people in organizations with acroynm names and federations. People like the senator in Shooter, instead of all of the peckerwoods in the hills.

Joe Peckerwood needs to make more noise and exert more of the Common Man influence that he can, instead of shrugging and giving up.

Note a small verbal difference between "proposed" the changes and "pushed" for the changes.

Dang, you guys pulled Kicker out of a coma. Good to see you chime in.

I hate it for y'all. It's coming though. They did the same thing in SC. We had a 5 bird limit my entire life and March 15-May 1. It is now March 20-May 5 and 3 birds. Everybody scratching their heads as to why.

What's coming? You all still have the same number of hunting days right? 3 birds is still s good limit if you guys have the declining populations like we have in Bama. I would have no problem with a 3 bird limit or the dates you posted.

1. We are going to lose hunting days under the new regulations.

2. A limit reduction has basically 0 impact on total harvest numbers. How did you come upon the conclusion populations are decreasing? I heard more birds gobbling this year than I can remember in the last 5 years. I have also seen a very successful crop of young birds this summer. I'm guessing we will have a gang of Jake's issue next spring.

Ben, have you ever killed a limit?

Your posts have been so awesome lately - so why don’t you explain, in great detail, how it’s gonna help improve the population. Please give examples of multiple states where it has worked perfectly. Please use biological facts, like how more gobblers sitting on the nests helping raise the babies will help.....stuff like that.

Crenshaw and turkey 247. I have no biological data. Crenshaw I have killed limits but not in the past 7 or 8 yrs. We killed 4 this year off 1500 acres and that's the most we have killed in 5 years. I have not heard more than 1 turkey gobble in a morning in the last 5 years. I only hunt a few times a yr with kids. work fishing activities etc. Dad and Mr. J hunt every weekend and normally a few days a week. This year Mr. J heard 0 turkeys. Dad killed 2 and heard 1 turkey about half the mornings he went and 0 the rest of the time. I took the kids 4 times 2 times we heard a turkey and killed it 2 times we heard 0. I run lots of cameras during turkey season as well. We used to hear up to 10 birds a morning. Everyone I know who with the exception of 1 guy kills fewer than he ever has. I know I never see turkeys when driving anymore where I used to see them constantly in large numbers in areas in central and north alabama.

Those of you who have great populations I am jealous of what you have. We had that once and it is gone. I have not seen a hen with little ones in 3 years in our area. Just mature hens by themselves. If I had great numbers I would do anything possible to keep them, if that meant hunting fewer days or not killing quite as many I would be good with that as I would love for my kids to get to hear and see what turkey hunting was 10-15 years ago.

You are free to do just that. You may limit yourself any way you see fit.
No regulation changes required.

Yes I know, I like to make sure there is a gobbler on the place when dad goes hunting. So typically if I find a turkey I will leave it alone until dad has a chance to hunt again
Last year was the kids first season going with me so we killed the 2 we heard.

This is how I felt about youth season for deer and turkeys. Why do we need a youth season, just take your kids hunting.

Absolutely agree with you there.
Youth season gives a few greedy adults a head start.
Purely political.

Maybe they realized that youth season is just like a normal hunting weekend so instead of taking away youth season they would just replace opening weekend with youth season which does not sound as bad to the public maybe.

Your property is a perfect example for the point we are trying to make. Lower limits and a few days later opening will do absolutely nothing to change what is harvested on that property, and more importany and relevant to the topic - it will not change /help the turkey population for you.

The limit for you could be 3 or 5 or 100, and absolutely nothing changes.

Possibly but if the neighbors only killed 2 or 3 as opposed to 4 or 5 and more gobblers survived there would more gobblers to hunt the next year. The few places I know whose populations have grown the last few years have stopped harvesting turkeys for 3-5 years and killed lots of predators. I am about to start working on the predators.

I completely understand your point and agree with some of what you say however killing fewer turkeys mean more survive each year which leads to a better next year every yr imo.

I read where chuck Sykes killed or was in on a kill every 1.8 days hunting last yr. He said his average for the past 10 yrs is a kill per 2.3 days of hunting . It does not seem like he would have any desire to do anything that would damage turkey hunting since he really likes it.

Ben, how is saving a few gobblers going to increase your hens nest success? You need to trap the coons and possums for a couple years and I bet you would see an increase in hens and poults. Predators didn’t decimate the turkey population all by theirselves everywhere, but in certain areas (especially around good nesting cover) they put a big dent in nest and poult survival. If you don’t believe me, ask any trapper how their turkey populations have responded. Even if you only save 1 nest, that is an average of 8-10 birds that is added back to the population. Over a few years those numbers will add up.

I understand this as well, but I also know of places that fencing, hunting and trapping have been done to reduce predators, 1 for example 2000 acres used to be covered up with turkeys they shot the crap out of them for 8 or so years everyone getting a limit now you can still hear a turkey or two but it does not have a quarter of the population it once did. Timber has been managed and feed and food planted for turkeys. It is basically a turkey paradise and its numbers have plummeted?

Youth seasons were done nationwide, along with "special" seasons like muzzleloader-only, to be PC, help placate the whiners, sell more equipment and give the impression that kids are special so they get their own weekend because a lot of adults are a'holes who don't want to take their 12-year-old when the "real" opening day arrives.

The special seasons are about money, and the youth seasons are about perception and getting on the bandwagon with other states so you "won't be the only one not doing it."

Coonhunter is on it, predators .

Last fall I went to SD Pheasant hunting . It was an eye opening experience about predator control, they trap and hunt very aggressively anything that will kill a pheasant. They can legally night hunt/spotlight on THEIR property for predators . Two of us went along as shooters one night. They have a ongoing war with ANYTHING that will kill a pheasant. Think about that awhile.

Here's how it goes down , they can only do it on property they own. They can have up to 4 in a vehicle and there are limitations as to what guns can be used. They do not flip the light on until they are on their property. And they flat "brang the pain" !

Trapping and predation control - real predator management, and not shooting 2-3 coyotes during deer season - is still pretty big in the Upper Midwest and in the Dakotas.

Seems like your limit should be 0. You killed the 2 you heard, how is that helping the population? Oh yea, you just want to put limits on the neighbors:

You are talking in circles. How can your neighbors continue to kill birds you say don’t exist? If they actually are killing limits and more, your assessment of your population is bad wrong. And if they are actually killing that many, and y’all are not, that’s on you guys. Can’t be both, it’s just not logical.

No I dont care if the neighbor kills 100 if that's the law. I killed 2 this yr cause the kids were with me. I did not kill the only turkey I saw and heard the year before that. Because I wanted him to be alive the next yr. I just dont see the DCNR as evil and trying to steal from us like some here do. I think the state has declined in population for the last decade and if anything they want to try could help that I am all for it.

I have no clue how many 4 of them are killing. I know 1 of them has killed 1 or 2 the past few seasons he used to kill a limit most of the time. The dairy farmer near by says he has not seen a turkey on his farm in years, our ag fields in which we would see groups as large as 60 birds at a time now stay empty for most days during the spring a rambling gobbler stumbles out in them for a few days most seasons.

Maybe I missed it somewhere but is there any scientific data that shows there's a shortage of gobblers that is leading to hens not being bred? Is lack of nesting hens leading to the supposed decline in population of is it loss of habitat? Or both?

Most on here don't think that either. The state wants the turkey population to be good, as do we all. I just want to see a justification for how lowering the limits will help increase poult production, the STATED problem and issue we are having across the southeast. I've been asking that for years and still can't get an answer.

Changes to your season is what's coming. Well then, if you have no problem with a 3 bird limit, no further questions. I couldn't possibly explain it to you in a short narrative, nor do I feel like typing it out.

This is all anyone wants from a wildlife or fisheries department when proposed changes are afoot. Transparency, what the proposed changes might achieve, goals and objectives, and why they are needed.

Thank you for putting this so succinctly.
No politics
No BS
No hidden agendas

There will always be agendas and politics within ALL state wildlife agencies. No changing that now just better start voting for folks that believe the way you do when it comes to conservation.

Sadly, I don't get to vote for the Commissioner, Director, the Chief, either of the assistant chiefs, etc..., nor any of the 10 members of the CAB. They are supposed to listen to their constituency as well as communicate to the constituency what they are proposing and why they are proposing it. As I have noted before, when we had a deer management committee directed to look into buck limits and antler restrictions and report to the CAB, our committee was made up of State biologists, private biologists, landowners, experienced land managers, AWF and QDMA biologists and representatives. We had Auburn hunter surveys looking into the issue and published plenty of articles on the problem and LOTS of potential solutions. We encouraged public input. Doesn't seem the CAB even know there is a turkey committee, despite how limited in scope it is.

One of the great ironies regarding the dcnr over my lifetime is that when we had Democratic governors, and every CAB member was a Democrat, we had a dcnr that operated by limited government principles. In fact, more than any other state, AL turned the actual management of wildlife over to the private landowners and the state did little more than set seasons and establish bag limits that would allow the species to survive.

Now, after many years of Republican governors and CAB members, we are moving towards dcnr management with a lot fewer decisions left to private landowners. The Democrats operated by Republican principles and the Republicans now operate by Democratic principles. Can anyone explain how this has happened?

It's interesting how nobody wants to take ownership in the two motions that were read at the CAB meeting. The way the women that made the motions stumbled through it, no way she wrote them herself.

Yep, she didn't come up with that herself. The other CAB members who voted in favor , probably the one who seconded her motion deserve a look.

Someone post up how the vote went and who seconded.

For anyone interested I am posting a link to a Masters thesis published in May, written but AU graduate student Stephen Zenas that details the first two years of the wild turkey study and their findings. I assume that this is at least a part of the preliminary data the Chuck is referencing regarding potential changes to seasons and bag limits.

Wild Turkey study

That study doesn’t impress me much if they’re going to use it to back regulation changes.. 24% of the adult male turkeys in their study were killed, but they had a 44% annual survival rate. That means that a greater number of turkey (total of 32%) were killed by environmental factors. Sounds like the bigger issue is environmental factors, not hunters.

The paragraph that’s going to bite us in the butt is this one, even though there isn’t much in the study to back it up.

“Although likely to stimulate negative feedback from stakeholders in the short term, making harvest regulations more conservative by reducing the season length or bag limit of the spring turkey season may improve adult male survival. Hunters would experience a reduction in the time they have to hunt, and the number of turkeys they could harvest, but this would increase the number of turkeys available to be hunted. Greater subadult survival facilitated by these harvest regulations may lead to high recruitment into the adult age class and more high-quality hunting opportunities.”

Substitute "deer" for "turkey" in that paragraph and you have almost the exact argument for buck restrictions.

I agree SBS. His thesis clearly states that environmental factors and predation play a much larger role than hunter harvest in turkey mortality. Unless the research proves that hens aren’t getting bred because of early season gobblers being killed by hunters then reducing the limit and shortening the season won’t help the turkey population in the long term at all.

Two totally different biology and breeding systems, although, I am not sure I would make the same argument today as I did then. One is a mammal one a bird. One has a long gestation and gives birth to 1-3 live young months after breeding, one lays and incubates a clutch of eggs of 8-15 on the ground for a month before hatch then attempts to raise them for another couple months. With turkeys, if one nest fails, they will often attempt to lay and incubate another clutch. Deer, one and done. With deer we had good data indicating that there were does that were not being bred in certain areas because of the skewed sex ratios and extended fawn drop, some into September/October in badly skewed populations. We don't have this data with turkeys and I don't believe hens "select" gobblers to breed with the same way does "select" bucks to breed with. This is speculation on my part. We also were starting with an season limit on bucks that was "any buck regardless of size, one a day for the whole season", virtually an open season on bucks with no limit. We are NOT starting there with gobblers. Buck restrictions - turkey restrictions, apples - golf balls.

I still want someone to explain to me why Alabama feels the need to adopt similar season and bag limits as our neighbors to the west? It has done nothing for Georgia’s turkey population so why is going be the magic cure all for this state? They are experiencing the a decline in areas just like we are!!

These proposals are personal agendas and simply a feel good stunt. It will do nothing to improve the turkey population as our neighbors management practices have proven!!

If folks want to see turkey populations thrive again they need to get off their butt and put some work into it. It takes work and effort to make things better. Our society is so geared to instant gratification these days it’s sicking. It takes work/effort to have positive results and the state damn sure knows little about both.

I just took over a lease that was managed by the state and it’s pitiful at how that great resource was managed. Very few food plots and the ones they did plant were pitiful. This state manages many thousands of acres. You want the public to buy into your feel good stunts start with managing the property you control properly before you force your personal agrenda on folks that bust their ass to make a difference on property we manage!!

Well now that's a head scratcher, young lady biologist who is doing the study on Skyline said something much different at the NTWF meeting in Scottsboro. She said we have a good population . No gloom and doom in her speech. Sounds like Ol' Hi-Jackson gonna get screwed again , just like when they screwed with the deer.

Spot on! I don't see how they can come to that conclusion. I also don't see WHY they would put that in the conclusions of the study. The study didn't really address the issue and it seems "random" to me !!?? Somethings smelly. 66% of adult gobblers die each year (22 of 33). 24% of adult gobblers are shot each year (8 of 33). That leaves 14 gobblers (63% of dead gobblers) dead from, I assume, predation although they don't address predation directly. Wouldn't it make more sense to address the biggest leak in the bucket (63% of the deaths vs 36% of the deaths)? Not only that but of the 8 gobblers shot, how may were shot as the 4th or 5th turkeys in someones limit? Seems like that would have been easy to find out and would DIRECTLY answer whether reducing the limit would make a difference and to what percent.

"leak in the bucket" ... whew, haven't heard that in a while.

But yes, why not address that and whether reducing the limit would matter instead of a wholesale "Lower it! It will help! Do something!" approach.

If South Carolina is overrun with turkeys in another 3-4-5 years after lowering the limit then I'll believe it. Otherwise it's just something to try, similar to banning deer urine because of CWD - nothing has been 100 percent proven on that, either. Right?

Speaking of pee, is mature gobbler urine better for early season turkey scrapes or does hen urine work best?

Leak in the bucket.... Corky, is that you?

Spot on. I was actually having a discussion about this very thing with PCP this morning. There ain’t a turkey decline in places that folks BUST THEIR ASSES. Trapping/killing predators is WORK.

Someone wants to gripe about how their turkey numbers have declined..my first question is “how many predators are you killing each year?”

Folks that have good turkey populations manage the habitat. They manage predators. And they manage their trigger fingers.

Umm squeaky. GA is to the east.

Keep the 45 day season

Keep the bag limit

Outlaw Decoys ( except youth season)

Outlaw blinds (except youth season)

Then the population will flourish.

It's a 47 day season currently.

Ever since the squealin hen was introduced...... well it's been downhill on the population

Yes....yes that is correct. I get so worked up about this foolishness I don’t know which way is up or down and in this case east and west. Hell Mississippi ain’t much different either with similar season and bag limit as to what’s is will be coming our way.

You're correct on that too. Ain't promising

“Although likely to stimulate negative feedback from stakeholders in the short term, making harvest regulations more conservative by reducing the season length or bag limit of the spring turkey season may improve adult male survival. Hunters would experience a reduction in the time they have to hunt, and the number of turkeys they could harvest, but this would increase the number of turkeys available to be hunted. Greater subadult survival facilitated by these harvest regulations may lead to high recruitment into the adult age class and more high-quality hunting opportunities.”

His whole premise is based on the idea that turkey population is a zero sum game and its up to him to decide how to divide them up. It ain't so. The more restrictions they place on hunting, the less landowners are gonna do to produce turkeys. He may think that he can divide the pie in a fairer way, but he doesn't seem to have a clue that the pie is going to be a lot smaller.

A chufa patch is just one example of habitat improvement that is done entirely for turkeys. I'm sure chufas are grown in states other than AL, but I've never seen one. People don't have the same level of interest in other states as we do, because they don't have the same opportunity that we do. Its similar to liberal states raising taxes even higher and then finding out they don't collect near as much as estimated - people move out when taxes become unbearable. In this case, the turkeys won't move out; they just won't never exist.

I have done a little more analysis of his paper and that will be distributed to the appropriate personnel in the near future. However, we need to remember who "he" is that wrote the paper. A young, aspiring biologist and this is probably his first real research paper as well as his first research. He is being "directed" in his thoughts on the process as well as the results - kinda like a puppet. We should look closely at his advisers as well as his funders. I feel bad picking on him - I was there once. Grand, Ditchkoff and Miller are his advisors. Do they maybe have an agenda? I know they have an opinion.

Thanks, that's all good info to know.

And do away with youth season, Just take your kids with you when you hunt.

Add the use of chicken litter to the list of things to outlaw as well!! I’ve seen first hand what the use will do to a turkey population.

You can bet the farm they have an agenda.
Not the least of which being money.

Yawn. I can't believe people still hunt turkeys that don't gobble.

I have personally laid eyes on 2 turkeys on my property over the last two years up until this summer. Last year I "planted" soybeans in a plot in early season that a turkey never stepped foot in even though I heard hens roosting maybe 400 yards outside the field.

This summer I've seen over 20 turkeys on several occasions, mostly young turkeys hatched this year. The difference ? We hammered the coons and possums last year, removing a combined total of 77 nest predators on my property and the surrounding land owner. We are at 38 for this year since the end of turkey season but really done in the last 10 days.

I trap my neighbors 2700 acres for free because if he has plenty of turkeys, I have turkeys.

A lot of that 2700 acre tract is thinned pines that is burned. Ideal turkey habitat. The rest is a mixture of river bottom and some clearcut. On the east side where there are beautiful thinned pine stands there is little to no turkey sign. But, it does join a large farm that has cattle and row cropping operations. I know they routinely apply litter to the pastures and have heard that they do not have a good turkey population.

I know a lot of people advocate burning in April and May saying any nesting activities disturbed will be offset by the habitat improvement. But, will the hen lay another clutch or 10-12 eggs or just 4-6 eggs? Why reduce the odds of a successful hatch when you can wait a few weeks before lighting that fire?

If the state was serious about increasing the turkey situation they would 1) encourage more trapping 2) limit nesting season burning 3) look into the chicken litter issue.

K bush done learned the power of a steel trap sounds like

Chicken litter, habitat destructive timber practices and a booming predator population are all factors that are reducing our states turkey population!

Chickens = Big business and money in the pockets so that isn't going to be addressed!

Timber = Big business and money in the pockets so that isn't going to be addressed!

Predators= Anything that offers any type of relief cost money therefore it isn't going to be addressed!

Hunters who manage their properties at their own expense are rewarded with lower bag limits and shorter seasons!

See! It all makes perfect sense!

I hesitate to dispute the chicken litter attitude, as many of y'all have expressed its detrimental effects on turkeys.
But I've used chicken litter for years and never noticed an effect on turkey population.
What's the deal?

And do away with camouflage.

Outlaw scopes or optics of any kind on guns or rangefinders.

Outlaw any ammunition except standard lead shot. No TSS, no hybrids, no souped-up loads.

Outlaw any kind of calls except a box call, scratch box or tube.

Outlaw rubber boots, snake boots or anything other than black brogans, khaki pants and a plaid (green) shirt.

Outlaw any cell phone apps with maps or navigation aids of any kind including land lines.

Let's go back to the 1970s or earlier. We'll be up to our necks in turkeys in just a season or two.

Chicken litter that is handled properly has no effect on turkeys. Chicken litter that is spead without allowing it to go through the proper heat cycle spreads disease.

I've seen first hand places that had thriving turkey populations go to nothing after chicken litter was spread.

I’ve seen it have detrimental effects as well

I'm in.
I approve this message.

Okay that makes sense.
What I use is a processed fertilizer made from chicken litter.

What we're talking about is chicken house owners selling the litter for fertilizer and hauling it directly from the chicken houses during cleaning and spreading it on fields. Most of the time you can follow them from the field directly back to the chicken houses by the wet litter running out of the trucks.

I kill turkeys off farm land that's been chicken littered for 20 years.

That's why I'm skeptical of this "research".
I haven't personally experienced any negative impacts from chicken litter.

Is it processed or scattered straight from the houses?

It's both. Depends on crop timing. About half is piled from spring to fall and then a bunch in spring comes straight from the house

So you're using it on crops. Are you discing it into fields for row crops?

What I'm talking about is spread onto pastures that are grazed or hayfields. It's never worked into the ground.

I’ve seen it firsthand too. Places that had turkeys for decades go to nearly nothing with chicken litter applications straight from the house. I would be skeptical if I hadn’t seen it.

Matt, Has the chicken litter issue been discussed amongst those in the DCNR? Are there any studies being done, or in the works on the effects of chicken litter in wild turkeys?

I'm thinking there was a study done by Miss. State on this, not sure. I've heard several others mention it but have never seen any published info.

There is a pile of chufas grown in SC and I venture to say that there are many people that manage for turkeys around here with the same intensity that you do. I know that I personally planted 70 bags a year for many years.

But 99.9 percent of the stuff you post is right on the money.

It was out of TN. Here is their basic info release—> https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/t...key_Disease_Study_Summary-_Sept_2016.pdf

Hammer meets nail with this assessment. It’s spot on in my personal opinion. The state is all about taking the approach that will cost them the least amount of money. They don’t have enough money to fund enough game wardens for each county. If anyone thinks the will/can fund solutions to some of the proven problems they are kidding their selves. As Hank said it’s easier to reduce the season and bag limit and it not effect the states bottom line.

I would like to make something clear. I think a lot of Matt and Jeremy so my dislike of all this is nothing personal against you guys at all. I fully believe there are bigger things behind the scenes taking place you guys have no control or knowledge of.

Matt I have the upmost respect for you and your knowledge around the Ag industry. We will have to agree to disagree on the use of chicken litter. You are very familiar with the property I turkey hunted for years. I was the only turkey hunter on nearly 4000 acres. Granted there was probably some poaching on said property but the population was outstanding in the beginning. Fast forward a few years to higher fuel prices and increased fertilizer cost along with a farmer going broke and here came the chicken litter. The turkey population declined immediately and there is no other excuse for it. Something almost single handy wiped that turkey flock out in a short period of time. One of two things happened, they left or died. When you go from seeing winter flocks of 50 to 60 birds to nothing in a years time something took place that wasn’t hunter or predator related.

I can also reference several other properties that have always been loaded with turkeys then the use of chicken litter came along. The turkey population on these properties are half of what they use to be.

I sure hope you never experience what some of us have my friend!

Squeaky, I think Matt agreed there is a correlation between chicken litter and turkey decline.

He’s not talking about Matt Brock...257wbymag is also Matt

10-4. I had been keeping up with the thread and Matt Brock was the first post of me read. Sorry and thanks

Yea squeaky and our place never had hogs til somebody decided they were hog hunters and pushed em across the river to us. Now we're covered up. We were covered up with turkeys til all the hardwoods got slaughtered on that place and replaced with pines. Turkeys disappeared. It's habitat. The fact that 75% of your side got cut too didn't help y'all. But trust me the turkeys are still on our side just moved down a bit to another farm that still has row crop and hardwoods.

I didn't mean that folks in other states don't grow chufas. In fact, I said I was sure that they were. I just meant that I had never seen one in another state, and I have hunted a bunch of different tracts of land in quite a few states. On the other hand, I've hunted a bunch of tracts of land in AL that did have chufas. Chufas are far from the most important factor in having turkeys, but it is just an indicator of how much turkeys are valued in AL compared to other states.

Has anyone in our dcnr ever wondered why it is that way? AL has good turkey habitat in places, but other states have much better and still don't have the interest in them that we do. I think the primary reason for the difference is the state regulations. A long season with a generous spring limit produces turkey hunting fanatics willing to do most anything to have more turkeys. I know this for a fact; I am one of them. Short seasons with low limits results in most people being uninterested in turkeys, and in some cases, outright hating them.

And it is not lost on me that another state where you can see lots of chufas grown is SC. That just happens to be the other state that historically had a 5 bird limit. Their state dcnr and the nwtf worked together to get their limit reduced a few years back. Reducing the limit won't cause people to immediately give up turkey hunting, but it will gradually change things. People like me won't exist, and by that I mean people willing to spend lots of money on making turkey habitat, and being willing to give up income for it too.

257 you didn't answer my question about the chicken litter. Are y'all discing it into the ground for row crops or broadcasting onto pasture and hayfields?

Sorry man I got distracted. Most is just spread on top of no till ground ahead of corn or cotton planter. Some is worked in but some isn't. Just depends on the farmer

Ok. The reason I asked is because it's spread on pasture and hayfields here and never worked into the soil. I thought maybe if y'all were discing it in it might be making the difference.

I know and have seen first hand that timber harvesting practices are a major factor but have also seen huge as areas ( close to 1,000 acres) that the only changes made were the spreading of untreated chicken litter where the turkey population went from booming to non existent. I'm not saying the turkeys died out but for whatever reason these places went from daily turkey sightings to absolutely no turkeys. Maybe they just don't like the smell but either way I know these places were loaded with turkeys for years then after the litter was used on the fields the turkeys vanished.

I was in a club a while back that was bank managed timber and burned on a 3 year rotation. Without a doubt it was one of the prettiest pieces of property I'd ever seen. 3,000 acres of nothing but pines and sage. The bank ordered the cutting crews to run over and destroy any tree except a pine. No oaks, no dogwoods, no Holly trees, no nothing but pines and sage. Out of that 3,000 acres we might have had turkeys on 500! The only places we had turkeys were along the 2 creeks bordering the property where the timber crews couldn't cut or run over everything!

Bump