is corn to blame?

http://www.classifiedsforhunters.com/by-...pulations-down/

horseshitt. Corn hasn't caused the decline in turkey numbers across the state, destruction of habitat by logging and increased predators like coyotes and coons has caused the decline.

I agree. People have been feeding corn for a long long time, It didn't magically just now have a hugely negative impact.

Agree. Had a long very specified response typed out and had to take a phone call and when I clicked iPad back on it was gone.

That whole "thoughts" page was fear-mongering. Period.

Wake up

No one is going to disagree with that. But how would you rank them. For my area I think it is:
1) Coons/possums
2) Bobcats
3) Coyotes
4) Others such as egg eating snakes.

I don't have hogs.

Habitat loss is above everything else.

Guess I'll take the minority view; I agreed with Corky.

I gotta believe all the hunters on here that say turkey numbers are down in north AL, but I don't see any decline where I live and hunt. I made a trip thru Coosa, Chilton, Perry, Dallas and Wilcox counties over the weekend and saw turkey's in every county along the road. The decline seems like a north AL problem to me, so somebody needs to figure out why. Maybe corn could have some impact? I dunno how much is fed up that way.

I sure agree with this statement:

>>>Habitat degradation is a serious problem around bait and feed sites. “People don’t know what happens to habitat around bait and feed sites. All the preferred forage is gone. It creates a habitat desert except for the bait pile,” Miller said.<<<

I used to feed wheat between deer and turkey seasons to try to keep the turkeys on my place. It worked well. But the turkeys not only ate the wheat, they ate everything else in the area. When I quit feeding, they mostly left. Wasn't as much food easily available, and they could make an easier living somewhere else. I quit feeding them wheat.

But that didn't reduce overall populations; just hurt my own property. This might hurt the overall population:

>>>Dr. Miller points out the detrimental effects of bait and feed placed for deer on other species. “If you’re putting out corn for deer, then you are adversely affecting non-target species, like turkey poults picking up moldy corn with aflatoxins and dying,” he said.<<<

Can anyone say for sure this isn't happening? I've no idea how much it happens, but I don't see any benefit to the turkeys from a corn pile. If feeding is done right it probably doesn't hurt them, but we all know that some are not gonna do it right.

I sure agree with this point:

>>>If Conservation officials are truly concerned with what is in the best interest of wildlife resources, sound science requires that they do all they can to discourage baiting and feeding, rather than all they can to encourage such practices.<<<

When I am appointed the Turkey Czar, putting out corn will be a hanging offense. I don't know how much that would really help turkey populations, but I think it would help a little, so I'll do it.

I'll implement a program that rebates landowners $500 for each acre planted in chufa - now that will really help the turkeys. Other parts of my platform will be $100 bounties on all the critters that eat turkeys, and a one-a-day limit on spring gobblers all over the country. And one special turkey license for $20 will cover the whole country. And killing a hen at any time is another hanging offense. Decoys will be illegal, but not a hanging offense; only a long prison term.

I'll pay for everything by outrageous taxes on Yankees.

We will have more turkeys than can be imagined. And its so simple.

What decade do you guys consider the largest percent increase in turkey numbers in this state? 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, or 00's?

I have an example in my neck of the woods that I believe would show it ain't corn, nor is it habitat loss. I live near Cheaha Mountain in the Talladega Natl Forest. Essentially it's 100,000 acres of uninhabited, unmolested, and unbroken rolling mixed timber woods. If you throw Choccolocco Mgt Area in, that's another 56,000 acres of the same habitat. This is an area that comprises roughly 3 to 4 counties in East Central Alabama. Now I wouldn't say there's no corn anywhere in those woods, but I have personally never seen corn, plus it would be very unlikely for someone to carry corn in a place that rugged and remote. 20 years ago there were 20X the turkeys there that we have now (my estimation, but I'm not trying to exaggerate). Places where I once could hear as many as 15 birds gobble at daylight, you are very likely to hear 0 today, and NOTHING has changed with the locale. In the early 90's we'd call in 3/4 gobblers ganged up and they'd have 20/30 hens with them. Today you are lucky to call up 1 gobbler, and he often only has 1 (or 2 or 3) hens. What TWO things are noticeably different today than then???
1. 20X more hunters
2. 10,000X more coyotes
As a young boy I don't recall ever seeing but 1 coyote. Today it's unusual to not see one every time I go, not to mention the multiple packs that howl at dusk/dawn. And the same goes for armadillos, though most folks say they aren't nest raiders(?).
Me personally, I have all but quit turkey hunting because of the number of hunters today. You get to the woods 2 hours too early, and there are already 2 trucks parked on every road. It's just too much.

Back when we had farmers planting corn ,soy beans,and peanuts and the woods were full of mast producing hardwoods, we had plenty of turkeys. Now we have just about nothing except planted pines. It don' take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

Pssh have we not always had possums, coons, and pine logging? Turkeys are every where.

In my area we have not had the coon population and growing we have now. Not in my life time anyway. When you could sale hides for $15+ back in the '80's, the population was kept down. Possums, foxes, bobcats were all sold.

This is not true at all in areas of North AL, where the decrease is the most noticeable/debated. As a matter of fact, the ag dominated areas there generally have fewer birds. Are you a rocket scientist?

Yes, and that was my point about the Cheaha Mountain area. It has never been anything except large hardwods, and that's never changed. There has been virtually no logging, there has never been any agriculture. It is something besides food.

What about chicken sh!t? There's more chicken houses than ever before, in fact it's out state's #1 "Ag" industry.

Everywhere I hunted in central Al was awful this year. Absolutely the worst I can remember it. Little to no birds in places that always held a good population. Usually I could convince myself they just werent ready or gobbling good because I could always find gobbler tracks, strutting areas, etc. Little to any sign this year. They were just not there.

I can see the argument about the number of hunters in the woods today. However, I also wonder how many of those hunters are newbies. In general terms, newbies don't put a real hurting on the public population of birds. Clubs with little pressure maybe so. I don't know what happened this year, I am just hoping and praying next year will see a rebound.

PCP - I agree with you concerning the original post. Nothing good can come from all the feeding stations. But nobody wants to hear that. That can hurt a lot of peoples feelings. Most just think they are doing something right and good by the wildlife when they feed them, and it's hard to think otherwise.

where i hunt in the national forest in perry county plenty of hardwoods not much logging, if any on forest land, i beleive it is them dang yotes. the place i hunt was burnt the week after deer season. the woods was wide open and i didnt hear a bird in there all year. heard 2 across the road where it was burnt last year. nfhunter hunted a place where they didnt burn just to the south of "my" place and it had a few birds.
i heard plenty of yotes every time i was camping or right at daylight when i didnt camp.

scott

I'll vote for you, if there is an election.

PCP has let his evil avatar get ahold of the puter again......

I guess left over corn in corn fields don't mold. How much proof is there that turkeys are dying from eating molding corn that is only at baiting sites?

PCP, you've seen my place and know it is small, probably too small and close in to hold many birds. However, I'd kept feeders out for the deer. I quit feeding this year after it occurred to me, while looking at pictures taken around the feeders, that I was feeding a lot more egg eaters than deer. In the future, what feeding I do will more likely be grown.

We were told for 30 years coyotes didn't impact deer populations.
A lot of those same people are still holding out on the Turkeys. Bobcat will get them for sure. Everyone agrees. But many will tell you a coyote can't catch a turkey. Well - even if Mr. Coyote's percentage isn't real high, his chances + Mr. Bobcat + Mr. Raccoon and any other nest raider + Hunters. Once any populations gets down to a certain level it has a hard time coming back.

Bottom line... if you have a lot of turkeys and a lot of coyotes. Pretty soon you'll have less turkeys. They score at least some of the time.

I admit I'm on the lunatic fringe about coyotes, I'm an alarmist for sure about them. I think they are killing everything out there that we hunt, and doing it much faster than everybody believes or will admit. They don't have any predators around here, we have the perfect habitat for them, and they are nose-hounds (so to speak)--they can find a nest with NO problem.

I agree. I hate coyotes with a passion. And it is NOT faster than I believe!! With so many animals after their eggs, it's a miracle we have any turkeys. I just think for me, coons get more eggs. But, who knows??

I agree. Is there any thought about aramdillos raiding nests?

Your asking 1 person in one very small part of the state. I'm no biologist, even though my step son is, so what I see is VERY limited and not scientific. I don't THINK armadillos are a problem. But most agree there IS a problem. Just what is the problem?? There needs to be a vast study done by biologist and try to find a solution. Same for the deer in my area. That would take a lot of time and $$$!!! Also, I think most would agree that IF we could eliminate coyotes, the world would be a better place. I HATE THEM!!!

Now, having raised hogs in the past, I could see them as a major problem where they are.

I'd say its gotta be the 60s. Many places went from no turkeys in the early 60s to booming populations by the end of the decade. I'm going from memory, but I think the largest harvest ever was around 2006.

Predator populations are definitely up, and that can't help the turkeys. My bounty program will take care of that. Knock the predator populations back and you will see more turkeys for sure. I think coons need to be killed more than the coyotes, but kill them all is my philosophy.

My theory on some of the places in north AL that have always been hardwoods and still are losing population is pretty simple. North AL was way behind south and central in getting turkey populations re-established. Some places in north AL haven't had turkeys all that long compared to the southern half.

When turkeys are introduced into a place they haven't been before, or at least haven't been in a long time, its natural for the population to explode. I've seen it happen in several places. I think its the fact that the predators aren't used to turkeys and it takes them a while to figure out how to locate the nests. Whatever the reason, when turkeys are re-established, the population quickly goes way up. It often goes up to a point that simply isn't sustainable. Newbies start turkey hunting for the first time and think its normal to hear 20 gobblers a morning. It isn't.

I think what many are seeing in north AL is nothing unusual at all - its just the population dropping back to a level that is normal. I saw this happen in Perry Co in the 60s and 70s. In the late 60s, you could see flocks of over 100 turkeys in the big fields along the Cahaba River from the highway most any day in the fall. It sounded like a turkey farm in the spring. By the mid 70s there were hardly any turkeys at all in that area. They soon recovered to a level that has been fairly consistent since.

If I hear 2 gobblers on my place on a spring morning, it was a good day. More than 2 is outstanding. It isn't that unusual to not hear one. It's been that way since 1990, when we started back hunting them after the place was clearcut in 1977. It ain't normal to hear 20 eastern turkeys in a single morning. If you experience it, enjoy it. It ain't gonna last.

Brad, I've got no idea if leftover corn in a field can poison turkeys. I've never seen any turkey that I thought had died from that. But Corky's article says there is plenty of research that shows baiting is bad, and it seems his main source is a MSU guy. Would Dr. Miller happen to be the MSU prof that must be teaching that gobblers sit on the eggs and help with raising poults?

Sorry, couldn't resist. As Troy says, its the Pale Rider avatar.

Hal, I'd love for you to vote for me, but Czars are not elected. They are appointed. Hopefully for life if I can get the next President to appoint me.

Where did you hear that?

PCP, I would have to say the 80's because I ain't that old!! Seriously, late 70's/early 80's is when I started turkey hunting. Also, there was a large turkey restocking going on in my area during this time. So, while my answer may not be correct, it's easy to see how I would draw that conclusion.

In that time I have seen a lot of fluctuations in population. This slump seems to have lasted a lot longer. Even before the drop, gobbling had about stopped. Many times I have seen coyotes slipping up on a gobbling turkey even though I have never seen one catch one. I believe that is the gobbling problem. Did I mention I hate coyotes!!

I personally think it's the wide spread use of Chicken Litter on farm land in North Alabama. With the cost of fertilize now a days farmers are turning to Chicken Litter. Sure is strange that turkeys started to disappear when more people started using litter.

Chicken chit is #1 on my list. Feeding doesn't help.

As for the varmints, if you all trapped and killed all nest raiding varmints you can, coons, possums, skunks. The coyotes will leave because the easy meals are gone.

The debate over aflatoxin in corn will go on and on. If it was serious you would think it would kill some of the 25 to 30 coons that raid most corn feeders every night. Corn probably does help coon populations expand and so there are more around to destroy nests.

I was in a 5000 acre club in MS that was basically a hobby farm for a rich, retired fellow who owned it. He ran it as a timber farm and burned about 1000 acres every year in February. He had a USFWS certified trapper come in for a month in the spring and a month in the fall who absolutely decimated the coyotes. There were trail cam pics of a 180" buck taken on the place and in the 3 years I hunted it, every longbeard I called up had two or three more with him except one who was so mean none of the others would get near him.

I think habitat enhancement (there are less coons and cotton rats in burned woods) and effective predator control is a step in the right direction. We don't all have 5000 acres to play with and timber companies don't burn to any extent any more but I don't think hiring a certified trapper is out of reach for most hunting clubs. While I don't remember the trapper's name, he was on a list supplies by MSU and the DWFP. This guy was death on coyotes though and it made a difference.

Just some food for thought. Hope it doesn't have aflatoxin on it.

Lots of blame going to coyotes. I'm sure they bare some responsibility, but focusing on JUST coyotes is just going to make it worse. Why? Because they help control the real avian predators. Coons, skunks, bobcats, etc., have a much bigger impact on turkey populations than coyotes and if you kill only coyotes, there will be more avian predators. If you trap, trap em all. If you predator hunt, hunt em all. Otherwise, you just may make it worse. Been there, done that.

I think a lot of people are trying to pinpoint exact causes of population declines, but I think it's a variety of factors that range widely in different regions of the state. All the aforementioned causes play some role, but I think spring weather has a greater impact than any of them.

And, to quote Cletus from a previous thread,

if aflatoxins killed the snot out of turkeys there wouldn't be a turkey left in Texas......

Sensible answer. I like that!

http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074703.htm

Acceptable aflatoxin levels vary by species and maturity but poultry is in general a little more susceptible than some other species.

Also, a lot of the corn that ends up in bags labeled "deer corn" end up that way because they couldn't pass the quality standards (including aflatoxin levels) to be sold for feed.

All of the biologist bring up habitat improvement. That is not a real option in most of Alabama. When leasing paper or timber company land, you can't do any habitat improvement, other than adding foodplots, that's it. Even adding foodplots isn't a realistic option for some lease holders because the landowners don't want anything cleared that could be a place to hold loblolly pines. Our lease holder doesn't allow any of the land to be burned whatsoever, and the location of any new plots have to be approved by the company, and they cut during April, May, and June every year. I don't know if logging kills poults, but I'm sure they run over some nests with skidders.

Texas was at least recently still restocking in east Texas which would be more comparable to Alabama. West Texas is dry and wouldn't compare to Alabama. The molds that make aflatoxins like hot and humid.

I don't think it is all of the problem, but feeding wildlife definitely is a problem in many cases.

Like said earlier. pay a bounty for yotes, bob cats and racoons and see how well the turkeys bounce back.

Sorry, just a bad joke. MSU grads seem to have a different perspective than AU grads.

Too many people thinking they should kill the limit every year dang sure doesn't help.

lots of Texas gets plenty of rain, you must not watch the news lately.

Makes perfect sense.

That's what I meant about the gobblers sitting on the eggs. If the hens have to do all the work by themselves, that's gotta hurt their success.

[quote=Snuffy]I personally think it's the wide spread use of Chicken Litter on farm land in North Alabama. With the cost of fertilize now a days farmers are turning to Chicken Litter. Sure is strange that turkeys started to disappear when more people started using litter. [/quote

THIS. we had a LOT of turkeys..but couldnt hunt them in our area. Id see huge flocks of 30 with big groups of gobblers everyday in the big ag fields.

The farmer next to us farms a couple thousand acres, and he started using chicken litter..and with in 2 years we never SEE ANY turkeys now. NONE!

They are all gone. Dead I believe from diseases from the litter.

I do watch the news, I know about the flooding, and I have forgotten more about aflatoxins than a retired game warden will ever know.

Hit home?

no need to get butt hurt......

I'm pretty sure you have forgotten more about any subject than everybody on here combined.....at least in yer mind.

That's why I never under any circumstances shoot any of the gobblers who try to help out in the nesting/incubating cycle. They get a pass from me everytime. The only ones I'm interested in are those deadbeet dads who treat hens like nothing but sex objects and then go looking for the next baby mama
Maybe if states rights stuff ever comes to a head we can at least make PCP the turkey czar of Alabama or maybe even the southeast.

LOL - Not a bit. I went to Auburn. I learned that the gobbler becomes expendable after carrying out his one function in the reproduction process. I try to kill my limit every year and I know that has zero effect on the overall turkey population. I saw 5 longbeards in one of my fields a couple weeks after the season ended.

All the habitat work I do does affect the population. I think encouraging others to manage the land for turkeys is the best way to increase the population. Then we can all enjoy trying to take some of the excess birds in the spring. I was taught this at a very young age and I've never seen anything to make me doubt it.

I hope you know I'm joking about the gobblers sitting on the eggs.

Brent, that's a great policy on which gobblers you shoot. Only kill the deadbeats, give the good family gobblers a pass. You need to share that with the nwtf folks.

Nope,not the corn, it's them 2 coonarse Hebert boys that knocked the population down so much. The 4 gobblers that took us 3 yrs to kill is what did it. The other gobblers figure if the 2 could kill that many, they better stay quiet and hide from all the sho nuff hunters in y'all's state. We had them so scared they probably skipped the breeding stage, hence the decline in the population. This I just my opinion, no facts can be found to back this statement.

But I am concerned that he'd make me shooting a fall hen a hanging offense....

Charles Kelly would send a MOSAD hit team after you....

I can help with this problem.

Hmmm

Hey, that could happen now. Better watch your back, Hal. That guy in the dark sunglasses could be after you.

Hal, I do apologize for my role in the destruction of your thread.

Im calling horsechit, on the chicken chit deal.. We use a pile of litter within a 5 mile radius of my house. And there is a pile of birds around here. Just ask BrentM, 257, Tru-talker, and bowhunter84... Blame it on what you want... Oh and to those of you that blames it on litter.. I hope you starve, because that litter helps feed Alabama...

You wasting your time here Troy, This man has got that brilliant thing called Google, if it's on the computer it's got to be true.. Done learned, you aint gonna get no where with him.. Just my $.02

not to worry Daniel, I don't listen to him anyway......

Maybe if I could talk PCP into appointing me as his deputy czar I could convince him to go easy on the hen killers....

When we have a crop failure it's usually several things that culminate to cause the disaster. With turkeys decline in areas I feel it's the same. There's no one point source of impact. Likely weather, habitat, hunting, predators and natural selection causes ebbs and flows in populations. But this may seem too logical for the state dummies to process.

If you don't listen, why did you reply to my post?

1. I'm not butthurt.
2. We aren't talking about other topics or other members. We are talking about aflatoxin and you and I stand by my statement.

That very well could be true but I blame everything on coyotes. I HATE THEM!!! They cause global warming and got Obama elected!!

Well, I really don't think corn is the major factor, no do I believe chicken litter is a player or environment decline either...

For the last month, I've been seeing two hens on Fort Rucker and not a poult in sight. Yesterday morning I get to their area and I could not believe my eyes... Three longbeards are with them and are strutting hard. I wished I had time to pull over to watch, but it looked like early April...

I have heard, that if nest or hatch was bad, birds will continue to mate through the summer but this is more from guys up north in milder climates.

I believe it's more nest predators than anything...

That office already belongs to me when PCP is appointed.

I believe that in my area it's been a combination of everything already mentioned!

Hunting pressure has gone from very low to extremely high, timber management is exactly what it says, "timber management" not "turkey management", chicken litter (from the chicken house straight to the field) and predators!

I just hope PCP gets appointed soon so I can retire from this chemical plant and get rich trapping!...

I believe I put a stipulation on that appointment - you have to convert to an Auburn man first. Once you do that, the job is yours!

Hal, sorry, but your public confessions of henkilling will make you ineligible. Even though a Czar doesn't have to worry about public opinion, it still would just look bad. But I'm convinced all your TSS work has saved many gobblers from a terrible death by coyotes, so I will make sure you are spared from the hanging.

>>>I just hope PCP gets appointed soon so I can retire from this chemical plant and get rich trapping!...<<<

I will indeed make you a rich man at $100 per varmint. I may have to put a higher bounty on coyotes or all the trappers will focus on the easier critters. I'm gonna have an army of trappers out in the woods eliminating turkey eaters. A coon is gonna be as scarce as a black panther.


Dang, this place sure does get slow in the off-season.

Referring to us as state dummies and not thinking logically is a great way to communicate your concerns.

Science has already proven over and over that congregating animals in an area in an unnatural way(feeding) assists with the spread of highly infectious diseases. I don't understand for te life of me why some people don't understand that. It's no different than a person with E. Choli on their hands visiting a buffet line. Guess what? Nearly everybody else that goes down the buffet line will either transfer or contract E. Choli. Come on people.

As for that being a primary cause for declines, I'm not of the opinion it's high on the list, but it might very well be a contributor on local levels where diseased turkeys have been collected.

So why did the state legalize feeding?

Well Matt I was pointing that more at the paper pushing desk jockeys in Montgomery not field guys like you. I'm in the same boat I got some assholes in Washington trying to tell me and my customers how to farm our Wheeler refuge here. That schit don't fly with me

Thank you... I think...

It's always been legal to "feed".

Ok, let me rephrase it for you. Why did the state pass a law that encourages hunters to feed?

Try again.

Nobody passed a law; the state just defined "area", which was in the law, but vague. Now its still vague.

PCP for President!... We'll just skip the Czar or scar or whatever! Lol!

And what is this "off" season you speak of? I'm just too busy planting and trapping to have internet time except during hunting season!

Better watch who you call a dummie

Damnit I said it was the city folks at the state level not yall.

I don't think many people were feeding much corn 10 years ago when the turkey population disappeared from my place. We haven't had birds since Hurricane Ivan took most all of our timber.

Well shoot...... I'm out.

Good luck in your new position Hal.

corn ain't got shitt to do with any turkey decline in Alabama.

Lock the thread.....captain aflatoxin has spoken!

I'd reply to yer dumb ass but I have you on ignore.....

You have me on ignore.....,and still can't resist the urge to reply.

And of course back to the cursing and name calling.

Pull the strings and watch him dance!

BC, you are passing on a job that would pay you a 7 figure salary, let you hunt in every state, hunt from March thru June, make a fall trip to New Zealand to see what we can learn by killing a bunch of their feral turkeys, and then do nothing the rest of the year. You would pass on that just to avoid saying, "War Eagle" ?

You understand we gotta put up a united front? And what did uat ever do for the wild turkey anyway?

War Eagle!.... War Eagle!....War Eagle!.....

There! I put my application in!

I'm going to have to rethink that then.

PCP: this killing stuff for long periods of time and in far off places has me interested and re-thinking my current employment options.

And if if helps, I graduated from AU.

WAR EAGLE!!!!

Hey you are still gonna let me put out corn, right?

I graduated from UAB. Their little brother syndrome is three times as bad as Auburns. That's almost like graduating from Auburn, right?

No. No, it isn't.

Poor Uab. Its the only school in the country where their own trustees want them to fail.

A7F, you gotta change your way of thinking. There will be no need for corn once I am the Czar.

I'm more inline with this thinking. I've heard of several bird species that cycle. I know we seen numerous poults early and then after all the rains very few poults.

I know of one area that used to hold numbers of birds that no longer does. Used to see 2-3 flocks with 50-75 birds almost always in the fields against the wood line. Lot's of corn piles and chicken liter used in the area.

There was a club that used to corn them up that had what most would think to be terrible turkey habitat. Basically natural regrowth hardwoods that were 10-12 years old. I killed birds in similar habitat just down the road. Seems the birds actually use that habitat more than thought of, at least in that area.

Lot's of gobblers killed in clear cuts thru 2 yr old pines and drains around here.

I'm sure further studies will be done.

This past year the birds just didn't gobble, towards the end of the season we kinda felt jakes were the problem. They were gobbling sporadically and had several groups whoop lone gobblers.

Negative Ghostrider. There will ALWAYS be a need for corn. Always.

Tell em Matt, what the two answers to all of the world's problems are. Tell em.


***** Just to clarify this particular topic, I am absolutely not in favor of dumping out a bag of corn and then sitting in a pop-up blind and murdering him over said pile of corn.....well, unless they deserve it. In that case....

I do not believe corn is the reason for turkey decline. If there is a decline, it seems to be in north Alabama and southern Tennessee.

I have been saying for several years that the population was going down. I do believe it will go back up eventually.

I no longer worry about asking the guys that have power in either Alabama or Tennessee, neither one of them care or even think there is a problem.

Who would you be referring to? The state agencies?

Yep, professional biologists have no idea what they are doing nor do they care

Strange they dedicate their lives to working/conserving the natural resources for the benefit of everyone.

Matt Brock and Nighthunter, excuse my ignorance, and I am being real, no typical aldeer sarcasm or bull.

Inform me please. Besides the restocking of turkeys in north Alabama, what else has the state done to promote turkeys in North Central and northwestern Alabama?
Turkey hunting isn't a culture or way of life up here for many, simply because there were no turkeys here until about 1995.

I just think they could do a better job of teaching people and hunters about turkeys and turkey habitat. All of the focus is in the southern portion of the state.

Again, excuse my ignorance.

By the way, I am still loosing respect for whoever makes the rules to liberalize baiting rules even more.

I mean, could you name specifically on if or when anything will be done or is being done? Specifically in Limestone and Lauderdale county?

Perhaps I could even put forth some helpful insight. I do anything could can to help there be more turkeys?

I'll start and Matt will probably add to it...

For starters we have a Turkey committee that works with several other states to stay on top of turkey issues. Currently there is research taking place throughout the state on turkeys, and yes in north AL. I am not going to dive off into the weeds on the research. I am not on the turkey committee, so I only know a little about it.

I do know there were stakeholder meetings a few months ago strictly on turkey in your district.

We also have a Technical Assistance team, which I am over, that will come out and assist landowners in all kinds of management. If you want assistance in turkey management, great, or heck we will come out for deer, quail, and even songbirds if that is your thing.

Our staff is here to help. Whether people believe it or not, we do know what we are doing Some may not agree with some things in the past or even now, ok, I get it. Don't let that get in the way using the valuable resource that is available to you. I think if you find some folks that have been in contact with Matt or myself you'll find that we try very hard help folks meet their goals and hopefully they will tell you we provide a quality service. I sure feel like we do...

As NH stated, we have a turkey technical committee, of which I am the northwest AL representative. We held a stakeholder meeting with the public at the Tanner office a few months ago and I presented our current and future plans to address the many turkey population management issues of my area of the state. There was at least two forum members at that meeting. Not only did I give a presentation, but I also received feedback from every participant. Turkey decline was at the forefront of the discussions, considering several counties in north AL have experienced declines.

We collect poult production and population estimates every year. We also encourage the public to participate, and I have discussed this with numerous landowners. I conduct site visits to properties in your area and provide the best technical advice and management recommendations I can to help people reach their goals. NH and his biologists do this exclusively, and we know what we are doing.

North AL doesn't need a mass restocking effort. It needs quality habitat. Right now it's not there, and won't be as long as current land use practices continue. There's nothing I, NH, or any other government or private biologist can do about that.

Saying we don't care is simply not true.

We also send all suspected diseased turkeys to SCWDS for necropsies.

I just read this whole thread and wanted to point out that the turkeys in SE AL are doing just fine! No drop in population around my places, and I feed all year except for that month and a half of season. I have seen more grown poults this summer than I ever have, Period. We kill the absolute piss out of the turkeys on most of my leases and they just seem to regenerate every year. This is nothing but timber company land too, tons of clear cuts, hardly any hardwoods and its thick. No AG Fields anywhere close and chicken houses galor. it's not uncommon to kill a bird within 100 yards of a chicken house. I also have so many coons I can't even plant chufa patches any longer because they dig them up to fast. Not to mention the number of good turkey hunters that have killed way more than their limits of turkeys since they were teenagers and have been doing so for the last 30 years. If being over hunted, having more coons, yotes, bobcats, feeding etc... is what's causing a so called "decline" in our birds then why aren't mine being affected. I know some areas have higher populations and such and that's understandable, but I feel like if hunters go and don't hear turkeys gobble during season then they just say they aren't there when in reality there are far more than you think. I've been on my places and not heard a single turkey gobble for days and then one day its like a light switch turns on and I'll hear 10+ birds in one morning on 500 acres. for instance, if I have a club member show up to hunt a weekend and he doesn't hear, see or kill a turkey then there aren't any left or the neighbor killed them all, or the dang yotes have caught them all or the coons have busted all of our nest for the last few years. to be honest if you don't have a ton of turkeys on your lease, or favorite WMA or private property there may not be enough desirable habitat to hold, feed and breed the number of turkeys you want then they aren't going to be there. If you go to a WMA that has a chat ton of turkey hunters, great habitat and you don't see, kill or hear a turkey it's probably because they don't want to gobble due to traffic, being called to a ton, etc.... if you want the numbers to hunt acquire the places that have them. now that my rant is over, 2 states that feed the crap out of corn and have a chat ton of turkeys FL, and TX. Corn ain't to blame.

I appreciate the feedback nighthunter and matt. I do know in northern limestone and Lauderdale counties is good turkey habitat. I am well aware of the insufficient habitat in Morgan and Lawrence counties, and certain parts of Colbert.

Turkeys for some reason do not thrive in big ag areas in this part of the country.

Again, thanks for the feedback. And sorry if yall post it already, but if somebody would post about these meetings I would gladly attend, good Lord willing.

And if you can answer this one question you'll be a hero in my book. You take very similar habitat in the Midwest and you can't beat turkeys off of it. They do not, and I repeat, DO NOT, thrive in agricultural lands in north AL.

Nor in MS. The MS Delta basically has no turkeys with the exception of the clubs between the levees

Sure wish I'd known about the meeting at Harris station. I'd liked to throw some ideas around. The main reason they're not thriving in N Bama Ag country is too many small tract landowners vs S bama. Too many cleared back hedgerows and too many "folks" tromping around bothering farms. In N bama there's no gates to keep joyriders and poachers out of places. I see turkeys on large tracts in Lawrence Colbert and limestone plenty. Now Morgan Co is a lost cause. I live in the worse Co in the state for wildlife. Morgan

257, my theory has always been too much disturbance in north AL. It's certainly more developed, with smaller farms than what you see in central and south Al.

And a house on every parcel. Turkeys can't do well with atvs and dogs running on every inch of land.

That's right Matt. It's too crowded here. But then again look at Franklin Tn. I guess there's always exceptions.

I agree. Everyone from North of Birmingham needs to stop turkey hunting at home and go get in clubs down in South Alabama. They are slap eat up with turkeys and PCP will help you find a good club to get it. Stop wasting your time up here. Ain't no turkeys.


Go South Gentlemen!!!!

Hey, the club that surrounds me is looking for members right now. You guys come on down.

I thought this thread had no more useful life, but it keeps surprising me. I learn more and more about north AL and wonder how they ever had any turkeys. Again, I think it was just the fact that turkeys do well when they are first restocked in an area, then the population drops back to what the land can actually produce long term. It seems to happen that way everywhere.

I think Turkeymaster makes a really great point - all the things being blamed for the decline in north AL are present in south AL too, and there is no decline there. I hope that common sense will prevail and a system that has produced great results in south AL for over 60 years won't be changed because of problems somewhere else that have nothing to do with us. My fear is that common sense will be ignored and the "solution " will do more harm than good for our area of the state. Sure hope I am wrong.

The "North AL ag situation" is very interesting. It contradicts a lot of publications / studies about "ideal" turkey habitat.

It is enough proof to at least question the traditional beliefs of what ideal habitat really is.

My thoughts as well PCP. There cannot be a "one size fits all" approach when it comes to setting season and bag limits for turkeys in our state. I know Matt and most others know this, but politics and pressure can often be deciding factors in the end. I fear, just as you, that we will see stricter limits and shorter seasons in the future in areas of the state that don't need it, all under the pretense of conservation for the greater good.

Interesting comment!

I well remember going to a turkey seminar at Comer Hall in 1975 when I was a student at Auburn. One of the wildlife professors led it, and he talked mostly about how to hunt turkeys. I remember that he told us he had killed 44 in his life and I was impressed.

But the seminar ended on a down note. He thought some places in north AL that were just getting huntable populations might be better in the future, but south AL was doomed. Clearcutting by the paper companies was sure to wipe out the wild turkey in the south. Turkeys require vast hardwood forests to survive, and we were in the last days of good turkey hunting in south AL.

Turkeys proved him wrong, but everyone thought like him back then.

I would state again that the only effective way to control the harvest is the length of the season. It's what they are already using, have used for over 60 years, and is proven to work. If north AL needs a shorter season in places, by all means, give it to them. Anything else will just be politics.

But those who argue with facts will be accused of having no regard for the resource.

PCP, the area of Hale Co I hunted in the early 80s suffered tens of thousands of acres clear cut. It had an immediate downward effect on turkey populations locally, and for years afterward.

But it didn't wipe them out, and Hale county still has plenty of turkeys. I agree clear cutting hurts the specific area for several years, but turkeys have proved they can survive quite well in pine plantations, and nobody thought they could in the 70s.

PCP, when I lived and worked in the woods, and turkey hunted, Greene, Hale, Sumpter Cos I, and a LOT of other turkey hunters felt that the turkey populations were down 30-40% overall in those areas in the mid/late 80's.

I imagine if the places in those counties you hunted were majority clear cuts with no roosting spots then there would have been a decrease in the number of turkeys that were hanging out in the area. It doesn't mean the population decreased in the entire county

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. The population of wild turkey decreased in the entire county.

Our place was clearcut in 1977 and by 1984 we had given up turkey hunting on the place. Not only was our place cut, but nearly all the land around us was cut. There just weren't any turkeys there in the spring. There were turkeys a few miles down the road, but we didn't have any.

By 1990 they had returned, and we've had turkeys ever since. As soon as the pines shaded the ground enough to make it reasonably clean under them, the turkeys started back using them. Since then, population hasn't varied a whole lot from year to year.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought the change to pines had no impact on turkeys; it certainly does. My point was that lots of smart people thought turkeys could not survive without big hardwoods forests for the winter. I thought that myself.

Turkeys proved us wrong.

I rode up on a very recently deceased mature gobbler on our property in Dallas county this spring. I had just taken a nice bird and was riding out on the golf cart. I laughed at first because I figured the bird saw me coming and died of a heart attack because I'm such a feared turkey killer.... but seriously.

He was belly down, wings out, with his head laid down. No signs of a struggle, no visible shot in his head or body. Not a scratch on him.

I carried him to the biologist and here was the result of the autopsy:

"The turkey died from Listeriosis, which is an infection from the bacteria Listeria monocytogenes. Is the property you hunt adjacent to any large cattle operations? Listeria monocytogenes occurs throughout the environment, but is very common in improperly stored silage. That may be where the turkey picked it up."

This thread got me thinking, could this tom have eaten corn from and old piled up, wet corn pile some one had some where?

FYI - I don't supplement feed at all, just plant wisely.

If timber companies did controlled burns on their big holdings, we would be shocked at the turkeys that would be on these pine tracts. God designed a pine forest to be burned. I know that most big landholders are now afraid to burn because of potential lawsuits (and who could blame them?). I suspect the fuel load is now so high on a lot of the timber company lands that controlled burns are no longer feasible.

Also, the state wildlife agency is publishing population figures around 400,000+ birds. That's on par with MO and ahead of just about everybody else. I understand that this is not a true census but an estimate based on hatches and terrain types. But, being new to the state, this population estimate was one selling point in my decision to take a job here. Despite cyclical ups and downs, the turkey population is in much better shape here than in MS (where I came from) and I am counting the days until next March.

I would like to know how they diagnosed the Listeriosis. That is a pretty rare diagnosis for birds. It wouldn't be uncommon for them to be carrying it but rare for it to make them sick.

I wouldn't say it is impossible but I would not highly suspect to get Listeriosis from eating out of a corn pile.

The bird was sent to SCWDS for necropsy, like I've already stated we do for all diseased birds.

Still unusual but if SCWDS said it, I believe it. They do good work.

Have turkey proved they can live around cattle farms, poultry production, landscapes in the Midwest and farther west with very few trees, not to mention shrub country in Texas - the answer to all of these are obviously yes - yes they can.

But the easterns we love and hunt here in this state prefer large landscapes of timber. Is a pine plantation at certain ages and stages ideal - of course not - and I've never said that. Is pine managed land perfect - no. Is it proven - YES.

We just let emotions get in the way and want to hunt beautiful, natural mixed pine hardwood stands. But a lot are gone, and will not be back.

We have these large landscapes of pine management in a lot of areas of the state. And like I stated - they are proven to sustain very huntable populations. And more turkey will be harvested in the pine belt every season than in some beautiful areas of North AL. It must promote people (hunters / biologists) who care about the future of turkey to stop and think why all those publications and studies about ideal habitat were wrong. Grasp that and move forward.

I know absolutely nothing about turkey habitat but I can say our 1k acre pine plantation in Monroe co. hold a good number of birds. We've been hunting turkeys on our place for 3 seasons now and I can't recall a hunt where we didnt hear multiple birds gobbling. Now we know not much more about hunting these birds than we do about habitat. But I figure for my brother and I to kill 4 gobblers in 3 yrs is a major accomplishment and think its because we have a good number of birds. I don't know why our place holds birds like it does, but our nieghbor and old member of the club that had the place before us tells me it always had lots of birds. It may be lack of hunting pressure or landscape is why they are there. Whatever it is I hope nothing changes because I love hearing them birds gobble and getting my tail handed to me over and over again.

I drive across the old Fort McClellan every day on my commute, and a few weeks ago I started seeing a hen with chicks just about every morning in the same place. I've also seen several hens with NO chicks, and I think that's odd, but back to my point... I saw her with 8 teeny tiny little poults the first time in a grassy spot next to a building. I haven't counted each time, but I noticed two mornings in a row she only had 3 (about twice the size they originally were). Granted, I'm assuming this is the same bird, but odds seem likely. She has been alone every morning for the past two weeks roughly.
Another hen was on the hillside behind the Ft McClellan Lowes (locals will know about these birds) and one time she had a BUNCH of little babies running around. I haven't seen another baby there in weeks now, but I see hens there just about every day.
Something is killing those babies.

I lived in Anniston for 4 yrs back in the late 90's. Drove around McClelland a good bit. Seems I remember seeing a good number of hawks. Are you seeing any hawks in those areas?

It is funny that weather was only mentioned in only this one post but it is the MOST important driver of nest and poult success there is - and the only one we have NO control over. I tend to agree here as well as with Troy. The last dry spring/summer we have had (good nesting and poult production) was 2007 and it was an EXCELLENT hatch in central/south AL. I have clients (in several central al counties) that will tell you they have never had more turkeys than they do now and it is mostly due to intensive predator control, despite moist/poor nesting seasons. SO... In MY order of importance - 1) spring weather, 2) nest predators, 3) everything else as a small percentage contribution. This is for the State as a whole. Habitat plays an extremely important part but turkeys are adaptable to a variety of habitat types, especially if it is broken up and diverse. I agree with Troy that corn has NOTHING to do with any actual or perceived decline. I think Corky used the increase in baiting in AL as a tool to get his point across which was deceitful at best.

BTW, the idea that the State bios don't care is a pretty poor theory. As Biologists, we all dedicated our careers, education and money to this field. The problem is they have no more control over Statewide populations than anyone else. You can't control weather, pretty much can't control predator populations across the State as a whole, so all that is left is trying to help landowners learn how to manage correctly and control habitat and predators on small pieces of the State. They DO have control of seasons and limits but turkey populations in AL are NOT impacted by our current season and bag structure so that tool will have NO impact on population densities regardless of what some will say! Just MHO

To start with I have not read all the post, just skipped around. I agree with gobbler and Fred. Corn is not the issue. TX feeds who knows how many tons of corn every year and they are still covered up with turkeys. I also agree that it is largely due to weather. Around 2005-2007 where I hunted was covered up with turkeys, killed my limit every year and helped folks kill a few of theirs, as well. Then we had a few cold wet springs and all around pissy weather for turkeys to nest. Guess what happened over then next few years? Ruff turkey hunting. The only birds that where being killed were 4-5 year olds, and not a lot of them. All the jakes, two and three year olds had all but died over the last three years. Then guess what happened? You got it, good weather and the turkey population was back on the rise. Where I hunt now in north Bama we have more turkeys now than we have EVER had.This year seems to be about average for young turkeys. With all that being said a turkey population can go from low numbers to great numbers in just 2-3 years. It depends on the weather. Also there use to be many, many, many more trappers than there are now days. If we saw coon hides start bringing $20-25 per hide like they once did I bet the turkey population would sky rocket. Example: I have been hunting in MO for 15v years or more now. When we first started hunting up there it was nothing to see 40-50 bird flocks. One afternoon I saw over 150 birds cross the filed I was hunting going to roost. At that time you were not allowed to kill bobcats. Over the next few years the bobcat population went through the roof, as well as, the coyote population! We were seeing a lot of cats! Guess what happened next? You got it the turkey population hit rock bottom. I was lucky if I saw 5-6 birds in a flock. They would fly and land out in the middle of those big fields, feed and look scared all day. I even saw bald eagles after them(lot of eagles up there as well). One would fly over and all the turkeys would hit the cedars where all the bobcats are. We cant control the weather but we can "help" control the predators. Oh by the way all those fields(and I am talking thousands and thousand of acears) have always been covered in corn, when the p population was up or down. When the state of MO started letting folks start trapping bobcats the turkey population started to climb again plus there has been better weather in the spring for the last few years. So boys start trapping or coon hunting with hounds and pray for good weather in the spring. Not a expert just some things I have paid attention to over the years. Carry on its time for bed.

In Texas, it is the feral hog population that wipes out the turkey population. Feral hogs will destroy almost 100% of the nests eating the eggs. We hunted a ranch for 33 years. In years 1 - 25, we never had a problem filling our tags. Year 26, the first feral hog was killed. By year 30, zero turkey sightings.

I agree with you but nothing never has just a magically huge impact of any kind. Something that causes a species to decline doesn't just happen, it happens loooooong in advance and slowly eats away when you don't know then boom it shows up. I def. Think logging plays the evil role here.

There is supporting evidence from some states that is suggesting the beginning of season is too early, resulting in the death of a lot of gobblers early, and shifting or shortening season has shown to help.

You've got to understand this is not an AL problem. It's an eastern wild turkey problem across their entire southern range. Weather IMO has not caused a decade long trend of decreasing production and recruitment from TX to Virginia. Some states harvest has declined over 50% from a few years ago. Poult production has decreased to less than 1.5 poults/hen in much of their range from TX to Virginia. It wasn't the result of a couple of bad hatches. Turkey license sales and turkey hunters have increased 100% over the last 12-15 years in most states, yet the seasons and bags have not changed. East TX is currently taking turkeys for restocking efforts. OK easterns are not doing well at all. AR got so bad they now have a two week season. SC shifted seasons and reduced the bag to 3. This is a real problem and there will probably be changes to the way we do things in the future.

It's not corn.

Matt, I remember "in the old days" the beginnings of a spring season, it was supposed to be set up so that most of the breeding had taken place BEFORE hunting season started. The move over time has been to open the season earlier and earlier so now we are looking at early March openings and any half baked biologist will tell you that breeding is NOT done by early March.

I personally suspect that loss of turkey numbers is due to a number of things including increase of nest predators(coon, fox, possum), increase in number of turkey hunters, restructuring of traditional turkey habitats to less ideal habitats.

Troy, sadly that has been suggested by the wildlife staff for decades but wasnt taken seriously.

Matt, can you explain, biologically, how starting the season later in AL (@ 45 day season where people are killing their 4th and 5th turkeys at the END of season) would help poult/hen ratios or make nesting more successful? Haven't we established that it is a poult production issue, secondarily associated with habitat or predators possibly and NOT a lack of gobblers EARLY in the season?

All the 4th and 5th turkeys aren't killed at the end of season.

I always start with #5 and count down until there are none left.

With 80, maybe 90% of the hunters in the State NOT killing their limit, the few that do kill a limit, kill them at the end of the season. When would you suggest that the 4th and 5th are killed? Do you do as Yekrut suggests and count backward?

No, we have not established that. It is a poult production issue, but the same general trends are being recorded on very large managed tracts with active predator control programs and stellar habitat, just the same as other places. New nest site selection information coming out of some studies is highly suggestive that habitat is not as big of an issue. Hens are not selecting the best habitat available to nest. They also aren't putting a lot of forethought into it. They're not visiting their nest sites until the day of, or couple of days prior to nest site selection. Most state seasons have shifted earlier because of public pressure, and ignored the science. We know from several studies when nest initiation begins in AL, and season has already been open for nearly three weeks when that time takes place. If you are wondering why north AL counties have an April 1 opener, it is because there are decades of data collection that showed the population would drastically decrease quickly, and not recover when season was opened up in the month of March. It has been tried several times, and always resulting in season closures. As soon as the population recovered, and April season initiated, the populations remained stable. It's a timing issue. It's not about people killing 4-5 turkeys. It's about the majority of turkeys being killed at a time in which hens have not even initiated a nest. Who cares if you kill male turkeys after hens are nesting? It doesn't matter. Some breeding takes place in February and March, and has been documented. Evidence is becoming more clear to me, and every other turkey biologist in the south, that we are probably killing male turkeys too early in a lot of places.

AR backed up season and limited it to 2 weeks in 2012 and their gobbler harvest, population densities, poult production, and hunter satisfaction has increased since.

>>>This is a real problem and there will probably be changes to the way we do things in the future.<<<

There ain't no "probably" to it. The women that run the nwtf have decided that the AL limit and season is politically incorrect and has to go. And it will.

Forget it gobbler - nobody is gonna listen to you on this one. Can't you see the same Formula in place as it was for the deer? Start convincing people there is a problem, appoint a study committee, talk about it, then slash the limit and make people like it. You helped pioneer the Formula, so now we gotta live with it.

Actually though, I could buy the idea that the season opens too early in places and has some detriment to the population. A study might show evidence of that, but I would question some of the conclusions I'm reading. I think the problem is far more likely the effect it has on the hens instead of a shortage of gobblers, and also its more likely a north AL issue. With a bunch of 40 acre tracts, the turkeys get harassed and the flocks broken apart every single day no matter where they go. I could see that changing hen behavior. Put in a later and shorter season in those places if that is happening. In south AL, most people take care to make sure their turkey flocks don't get broken apart every day. I try my very best to make sure that the turkeys never know I'm in the woods unless I shoot one, and that's the approach most hunters take on the larger tracts of land in central and south AL. Its 2 different worlds, but I can see one solution coming.

I remember reading something Lovett Williams wrote about season timing - he said that a later season was more harmful to the flock than an earlier season. Hunters disturbing hens on the nest was far more detrimental than killing some of the gobblers before the breeding takes place. But I guess he didn't really know anything.

Its really interesting how the dcnr had changed their message over the years. I remember going to some kind of meeting with my dad back in the 60s where Charles Kelley spoke. I remember how much he emphasized that AL wanted generous seasons and limits on deer and turkeys so that the landowners would have the incentive to protect them and manage their land for them. Other states took the opposite approach and were years behind us in restoring populations. Of course, north AL was years behind the rest of AL as well. I heard that same message over and over from all the dept personnel that I ever heard speak publicly. That message is sure gone now.

I picked a good time to get old.

They could show me 50 years and $50MIL dollars worth of studies and never convince me that hunters are any part of the problem whatsoever. The bag limits and season dates have been the same as long as I've turkey hunted (since the mid 80's). I never saw any change in turkey behavior or numbers UNTIL I saw a change in coyotes and armadillos. As I progressively began to see more of those two animals, I coincidingly saw progressively less turkeys. The weather isn't different, the woods aren't any different (where I live), nothing else is different. It is coyotes (and possibly armadillos) period. As long as our state pretends that coyotes aren't a problem (wasting time doing dumb-butt studies), it will ultimately ruin our resource.

On studies in the south hunters are the leading cause of mortality on gobblers, backed up by proof because they were wearing gps transmitters or radio transmitters. Those are facts. Some areas it exceeds 70% mortality. Predators make up far less mortality on adult birds.

PCP, it's not just a north AL issue. The same is happening in central and south AL.

I sure haven't seen it nor have the majority of my local buddies who hunt. Judging by the poults I've seen the last couple of weeks, it appears last year was a nice hatch as well.

I will join Crenshaw, Turkeymaster, gobbler and the many others on here who say they haven't seen it on the places they hunt. I participated in the poult survey and reported what I saw, which was a lot. I realize that's just anecdotal info, but I hunt in 3 counties and we have as many as ever. I saw 3 different groups last weekend and wasn't even looking for them.

The Hunter Survey doesn't show any downward trend; how have you decided that the population has declined in south and central AL? I thought it was the most scientific instrument you have; is that wrong?

By the way, thanks for posting on here and letting us know what's going on.

>>>On studies in the south hunters are the leading cause of mortality on gobblers, backed up by proof because they were wearing gps transmitters or radio transmitters. Those are facts. Some areas it exceeds 70% mortality. Predators make up far less mortality on adult birds.<<<

I don't doubt that at all. Once a gobbler is a year old, there aren't many things likely to catch him. What I do doubt is that the gobbler harvest has anything at all to do with the overall turkey population in the areas I hunt.

I'm still thinking there is an MSU professor that teaches students that gobblers sit on the eggs and help raise the poults.

I agree, S AL isn't showing a problem to me. I get to hunt way too many places, see way too many birds die and hear way too many gobblers every spring to think S AL has a problem. anywhere you get to watch 10-15 birds die a year in one part of the state and there be just that many more to hunt the next year doesn't sound like it has a population problem to me.

I drove into a large tract of land managed by my company Monday morning (northern fringe of SW Bama pine belt). Most would not like the way it looks in regards to turkey habitat and hunting. Some turkey purists would scoff at the tract and refuse to hunt it. I ran 4 different groups of turkey, of all combinations and flavors, out of the main haul road in about a 1 mile stretch. You could ride all day through some parts of North AL and never do that.

Any change of any kind will have to be zoned. No pretending otherwise.

And I'll add this. It's past time to ask the question why turkey can sustain numbers in habitat perceived as less than ideal in South AL, but can't in places that fit every publication of ideal turkey habitat in North AL.

I believe it's time to question the old thought of ideal habitat. I've said it before and the only person here that picked up on it was PCP. He may not be the only one to give it thought - but the thread just moved on.

I picked up on it because I realized long ago that what I was taught in school was wrong - turkeys don't require vast hardwood forests to survive. They sure do better if they have some hardwoods, but chufas can replace the hardwoods in places that don't have them. A place with different ages of pine plantations and 5% of the land in chufas could produce a huge population of turkeys.

From what little I know about north AL, I don't think its fair to compare their Ag to the midwest Ag. KS has vast areas of rough land that isn't farmed, yet doesn't have many trees and is ideal nesting habitat. I don't see that driving thru north AL.

Well, i guess, i'm lucky because i haven't seen a decline in turkey numbers, where i hunt.

I thought we already settled this????

it's PCPs avatars fault.....

It used to be that states tried to start the season when the majority of the hens have started setting on their clutch.

But hunters can't stand not to be hunting once they start gobbling. And most don't like the end of the season because they quit hearing the gobbling. They don't take into consideration the effect killing most of the eager gobblers has on gobbling and hunting success as the season goes on. Nor do they consider the effect hunter activity has on the birds' habits. And those effects happen no matter when yo open the season.

In NC we are constantly dealing with the pressure to open the season earlier, though the biologists warn against it.

I agree with you that in many states the season is open too early.

I thought you were going to get there then you drifted off Not picking on you but you are the only one on here that I can debate this with! I got a couple citations from you a while back and read them but it still did not explain to me how this would work in Alabama. We have different land base, seasons, and turkey populations than other states. None of the studies I have read have shown me conclusive evidence (nor compelling in my mind) that lower poult production is a function of earlier season openers. I don't see how moving the season starter later will make poult production higher - I must be missing something and must be the one Biologist in the south that this is NOT clear to!

I also worry about the quality of data that our research set up here in AL will yield. All public land? A high quality population model being the end result?

And I really do appreciate your willingness to engage in an internet debate!



I hate to say it but your right! Reaping what you sow and all that

I'll debate later. I'm tired. Not dodging the bullet. Just flat out tired.

Let me be the one to stand up for North Alabama here....

Have we ever had the numbers South Alabama has? Nope.


Are there turkeys up here? Why yes, there are. Despite what appears to be popular belief.

If you can kill em here, you can kill em anywhere. 40 acre tracts and all (sorry Preacher).



Couple of other things:

1) no, corn isn't to blame.

2) Matt freaking Brock himself don't want to lower the bag limit on nothing. Yall bear that in mind.


Barber, proceed.

But Matt, other than the obvious answer, how much does that affect the overall population in reality? True, hunters would likely be the top killer of adult gobblers, but turkeys reproduce so prolifically that those gobblers should be replenished from year to year. I simply don't see as many turkeys period anymore...no big droves of hens, very few hens with successful broods, far less gobblers heard now than years before. For some reason either hens are getting killed, or poults aren't making it to adulthood. Am I right?

Weather, and nest predators are your largest factors in hens dying and poult recruitment. Been raising turkeys only 3 years and it amazes me we have any at all. Hardest thing other than my kids I've ever tried to raise. Getting eggs to hatch and the bird to 8 weeks old is very hard. When my hens are setting I keep a gun within arm reach at night, 3-5 nights a week dog will bark and I have to get up and kill something eating eggs or killing poults.

There's only so much we can do as stewards of the land. Another nesting problem I've come across that we cant hardly do anything about in our hunting area is fire ant control. Theyre almost like buzzards circling waiting for eggs to hatch it seems sometimes and they can and will kill small poults right after hatching.

I wish Bama would split the state and the season would run March 25-May10 in the northern half

Bunch of hard gobbling turkeys get killed up here every year in the first 10 days that never get a chance to breed and pass those genetics on.

damn fire ants willl kill a y newborn fawn......