Throw n Mow Q&A

Hide your wives�hide your kids�.Throw n Mow is back! It�s that thread that 257 loves to hate.

With deer season coming to an end and warmer temps just around the corner, many folks are ready to start focusing on off season plans. We�re going to go ahead and get this thread started now for anyone who wants to participate and it�ll take us through the spring and summer. Everyone feel free to judge, criticize or debate but please just keep it constructive and semi-civil. It doesn�t bother me a bit to disagree with someone but there�s no need in calling each other idiots and morons, etc.

This will mostly be a question and answer thread for those of you who are interested in continuing to build on your throw and mow plots from last fall or others who are trying it for the first time. Don�t feel like this is just my thread. I�ll post some updates from time to time on what I have going on with my test field but anyone who wants to post pics of their plots or tell their stories go ahead and jump right in. The thread may go in all kinds of directions before its over but don�t sweat it too much if conversations go a little astray�..I�ll right the ship if need be.

Welcome to Throw n' Mow Q & A���..

Can I come and kill that piebald?

just dropped off some soil samples.

Has anybody done this on wet areas? I don't mean wet after a rain and then dry again. I mean wet from November until about April/May? And on areas smaller than an acre? If so, has it been able to keep up with the browsing? If not, what month did it start not being able to keep up?

She�s already dead I believe. I watched her grow up from a fawn, born to the big doe on the right. Something or someone finally caught up with her as a 2 � year old.



Good deal. Post up the results if you have any questions.

All of my plots are under an acre, but either our deer density or plot use hasn't been nearly as high as other areas. I am going to try and plant some higher quality seed this year and see if plot usage increases. This was year 2 of "spray, throw, and drag". We are going to put out some exclusion cages as well as cameras after season to determine usage.

I've got a couple 1 acre plots, where both were planted by discing in some areas and more of a throw-and-mow approach in other spots. In one of the plots I have clover coming in quite well (thanks to 70-degree temps half the winter). My thoughts were to just let that field go all summer and then address planting for the fall when the time comes. May not even spray for weeds in the clover since the intent will not be to keep it there for years. If I do anything in terms of summer planting, it would be in the other field. May try to lime both fields though. Sound like a reasonable approach?

Why are 4 eating and 5 staring ?
Is your Ph right and who threw the paint on that doe ?

Sorry couldnt resist ...

I enjoy the throw and mow discussion and education it really
saves tractor and field time .

I'd pull a soil sample first Joe and go from there.

I think the more moisture a plot holds then the better this method will work. I can't see where a no-till approach such as this would have a negative effect.

Because I'm yelling at them to pose for the picture.

Have you done it on plots like described?

Our biggest field at the hunting club stays fairly wet and its been one of our best plots�..the clover does especially well there. I don�t know if its wet to the point you are dealing with but when my buddy use to hunt the land years ago he would have years when it was too wet to plant in this field. We planted it last year in the rain using throw and mow. Had you been trying to till that day it would have been a mud bog.

It's usually dry enough to get a tractor on in September. It's usually muddy from November through about May. We've been able to stock pile enough tonnage to get us through the hunting season. However, with the number of deer using it and the small size of the plots, it's struggling by January. We try to keep them out until mid-October to bank the tonnage and it's worked. They start hammering the plots mid-October throughout the season.

How much nitrogen are you applying to the fields during the fall/winter?

I believe it calls for 50 or 100 lbs per acre.

Those soil tests recommendations for nitrogen are given for a set �yield� from the standpoint of producing an ag crop. We�re not really worried about that. Our concern is producing winter forage for deer to eat. That means keeping the cereal grains lush and growing during the fall/winter months. Not all, but nearly every plot I�ve seen during the last month has been nitrogen deficient. Your field can�t run all season just on what is put out at planting. With the soil that most of us are dealing with we�ll go N deficient after about 6 weeks depending on the rain. We want the field actively growing��.not struggling and turning colors (yellow, purple, red).

I would recommend to try some cereal rye next year. It grows faster and at lower temps than other cereal grains. I�m going to a mix of cereal rye and oats for my cereal grains. Add 50 lbs of 33-0-0 at planting and 100 lbs of 33-0-0 at 6 weeks after planting. I added 50 and then 75 this year. To just completely maximize my growth, I could have really added another dusting here toward the end of the season. I�m starting to see some yellows in the field. We've had a chit load of rain though so some leaching is to be expected. Deer like it best when its lush and deep green.

I tried some cereal rye this year and it didn't do hardly anything. Our plots stay green, they just stay browsed down.

What's the go to throw and grow mix for spring? I have a small patch of hillside here at the house currently in wheat and oats. I typically just weed eat the hillside late Fall and throw seeds out. It does pretty well. Never tried a spring planting and would like to try something.

Buckwheat seems to be about the best option but I wouldn�t even spend the money on it in a small plot. Its not going to make a hill of beans difference in the end and the deer will likely just wipe it out. Fill your fall mix full of clover and spend your money in the spring on improving the soil nutrients through lime and fert. Using the throw and mow method has its basis rooted in building the soil through adding lots of plant matter (biomass) and having it turn to decomposed organic matter�.like potting soil. This greatly improves the soil fertility. The summer growing months are when we produce this tonnage of biomass. Most of my biomass in the summer has been produced through crabgrass and weeds. The field is still very lush in the summer though so the fertilized �weeds� are very attractive to the deer along with the clover that grows amongst them. You have to produce the biomass in order to make progress in building the soil and to have ample thatch to cover the fall seed mix that we�ll plant.

I have found through experimenting last year that you can grow a quick crop of spring turnips early on before the summer weeds and grasses take over. This just helps to add more organic matter to the soil and feed the soil microbes as the turnips rot over the summer.


Early crop of spring turnips grown in April and May��..



Spring turnips mowed down to decompose����.



Weeds and grasses eventually take over and more biomass is produced��.



Biomass is used to cover fall seed mix. All of this thatch is now about gone due to decomposing and being incorporated into the soil by the microbial community.

I've been on a similar program with my lawn maintenance. I always mulch especially in the Fall when the leaves are falling. I've read a good bit about this on other websites like Dirt Doctor. They were adamantly opposed to chemical fertilizers stating that they killed the helpful microbes in the soil. I'm assuming the same holds true here?

Yes and no��They�re correct in that chemical fertilizers likely have a negative effect on some of the natural processes that we�re trying to produce with microbes and such. However, its not feasible to think that you can take a field we�ve been tilling and using synthetic fertilizers on for years and just go cold turkey without them through the use of cover crops. There�s just nothing there in the soil to fuel those crops in the beginning. It�s got to be a gradual reduction of inputs over time as the soil becomes more fertile. I still don�t know if we�ll ever be able to completely wean off of N if we want to produce the kinds of winter yields many of us need on small acreage to keep up with browsing. It�ll likely always be a little bit of a balancing act for us between different philosophies.

How long can the soil stay wet and the microbes still live?

How big is the field that you're talking about?

When I find a decent 4 row planter I will convert to no till with cover crops. Til then Im staying with tillage. I do want to save hrs on tractor and hold moisture but I just haven't found the right planter yet.

I�m not sure.



The field here at my home property is a little over 2 acres and the big field at the hunting club is a little over 3. Everything else is 1 acre or less.

I might throw this out there too. Aside from the benefits in soil fertility��this type of approach to food plotting makes fall planting much, much simpler. I�m sure there are several on here that can attest to that after this last fall. Cereal grains and clovers work very well with throw and mow.

I'm gonna give cereal rye a try again next year, but it didn't do well this year. Everything else did, just not the rye. If I had plots that large and dry I wouldn't have any problems. I've just been curious if doing this method would allow me to bank more tonnage for the late season, but haven't seen that to be the case, yet. Maybe somebody will have an example that mirrors ours.

If I planted a Spring plot, it would almost be floating on water in a normal year.

CNC you said you put out 50 lbs of 33-0-0 at planting and 100 lbs six weeks later. Do you mean product/acre or lbs nitrogen/acre? Or is that all the fertilizer you applied?

I�m referring to one 50 lb bag per acre of 33-0-0 at planting and 2 bags per acre 5-6 weeks later��.P,K, and Ca are adjusted and held near optimal levels year round through periodic soil testing.

What are the Spring clovers to sow? Crimson? Aren't the perennial whites best to frost seed in the Fall? White Dutch is pretty cheap and does well here.

��crimson, durana, ladino, arrowleaf, dutch white�..

I've never tried sowing clover in the spring. Always just throw it in will mu fall mix.

CNC. I agree with most of what you have to say but will have to disagree with you on this. I've gone cold turkey on traditional fertilizers the last three years and I have healthier better looking plots than ever. I use mostly sea minerals, but have also put out raw non pasturized milk, and will be using worm tea this year as well. This method focuses on feeding and growing the microbe population in the soil and letting them feed the plants. And a side benefit is that it cost a lot less as well.

This was taken 1/16. It's had less than 100lbs of traditional fertilizer in total the last 3 years. It is also a throw and mow plot of oats.

New to the throw N mow,and have a few questions for the experts... studying up now for fall planting. I'm going to use cereal rye,oats,crimson clover,and trying to decide on which of these to add rape,turnips,or radishes.
I'm also wondering seed rate (lbs.) per acre for each to use for this method.
From the other thread I noticed it was as simple as the name suggests (throw N mow) but can I spray say a few weeks prior of throw N mow? What is you suggestions on this? I don't like weeds.

I�m all for mimicking natural processes as much as possible and weaning off synthetics. I haven�t tried any of the things you mentioned but wouldn�t be opposed to testing them. Have you sent in any soil samples to see how these products effect your nutrients, pH, etc???

Nothing wrong with spraying a couple weeks ahead of mowing if that�s what you want to do. This method provides you with options. There�s no one set way�..only general principles that we work toward. I�ve went to planting my fall plots without spraying. I get some minor regrowth from summer stuff but not enough to matter and the first frost takes care of it. It just simplifies the process even more.

Westflgator, where do you get sea minerals,raw nonpasterized milk, and worm tea? Please elaborate on what each does for the soil, how they are applied and the cost per acre. Thanks

I'm fixing to send in my samples before spring, but I test the BRIX level of my plants, which is a very good indicator of the health of the plant. If you have a high BRIX you are doing something right...mine still has room to get better but it's probably higher than most folks who use traditional fertilizers even though their plots may be really pretty and green, which doesn't always tell the whole story. If your BRIX is high they will walk across your neighbors to eat yours. Checking the BRIX is really testing the soluble sugar content of the plant which is directly related to it's health. It's a really good and simple way to check the quality of your plots.

By worm tea, do you mean like a green tea? It's basically organic matter that has been decomposed in water. I like to think of it as pond water or swamp water. I make it for the yard by throwing a bale of hay in a rain barrel and adding some compost to get the organisms working.

How do you test for BRIX and how do you raise its levels?

I'm going to be tied up today but I will follow up on those questions when I get in this evening...I will say this, cost of of incorporating all three is $15-18 per acre not counting tractor fuel.

Tell me more....

The basic concept in a nutshell is this, you are farming/feeding the microbes in the soil by creating healthy conditions for them to thrive. Creating healthy populations of microbial activity in the soil will provide readily available nutients to the plants/plots. Most soils are dead mostly due to traditional fertilization, soil disturbance, chemicals etc...

Sea90 sea minerals
The first thing I did was switch to the Sea90 minerals for my fertilization needs (costs $3 per acre). The basic concept behind the sea mineral is that our soil needs 48-52 minerals to be at optimal health. Our traditional practices generally only add 3-4 or those back into the soil, which makes plants/plots grow pretty and green, but they are not necessarily healthy. The sea minerals will help to replenish all of those minerals and more. These minerals will help to feed microbe populations which in turn make the nutrients available to the plants/plots. One of the reasons for so much disease and stress in plants/plots is the lack of these minerals. A side benefit of the sea minerals is that your plants/plots will be more drought and cold tolerant.
http://www.seaagri.com/fertilizer.htm


The raw milk
Two gallons per acre mixed with water (cost approx. $6 an acre, purchased from a local creamery). This will not only add some live culture to the soil, but will help feed the existing microbe population with high quality food as well. Another benefit to the raw milk is that it appears to help the soil become more porous and less compact allowing it to retain moisture and aireate itself better which both bring added benefits. Here is the study that originally got me interested in trying this method...
http://www.minnesotafarmguide.com/news/r...1cc4c03286.html

Worm Tea
Cost virtually nothing once you establish a worm bed and set up an aeration barrel or tank. If you choose to buy the castings then there will be minimal cost involved in buying the castings. This is the last thing that I am currently getting set up to add to my fertilization plan on a consistent basis. I have done a little experimenting with this but not a lot at this point. Basically you are taking the worm castings from a worm bed (can also be purchased) and brewing them with an aerator to make an active live tea that will add more life to your soil while feeding the plants/plot at the same time. There is a lot of info on this method of gardening online. Some organic farmers are starting to use this method as well with phenomenal results. I got really interested in experimenting with this after reading an article in Acres USA on how one farmer totally rehabilitated his soil with this method along with adding fish emulsion to his brew. According to the article Bruce Davidson bought a 380 acre farm that had been used for diary cattle and sheep for years. His soil ph was at 4.6 when he bought the farm and soil tests showed that he needed to add 2000 lbs of 60% dolomite & 40% lime along with the other recommendations on fertilization to get on track. He couldn't afford these recommendations, so he began to think outside the box and look for less expensive alternatives. He and his wife had been in the flower business and completely changed the quality of their flowers and fertilization costs after reading a book called Worms Downunder by Alan Windust. Understanding that worm castings are one of the best fertilizers in the world, he began to experiment with using worm juice on his pastures. After some initial testing he began spraying his pastures with approximately 1 gallon of worm juice to 10 gallons of water per acre with a boomless sprayer that formed larger droplets so as to not destroy the microbiology of the mix. His results were nothing short of miraculous. His pastures came to life not to mention that the cattle preferred to stay in his initial test area verses the other pastures. Soil tests the following year showed that his ph had improved to 6.5, the calcium had increased by 456lbs per acre, and magnesium by 81 lbs per acre, all this combined at the local prices saved him $130 dollars per acre which equated to roughly $49,000. He has since learned that adding fish emulsion helps to raise the BRIX levels even more than the worm juice mix alone. He started out with a BRIX level of 4 but has been able to raise the BRIX to between 15-20 depending on the variety being tested.
http://farmingsecrets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/FS-Article-Lessons-From-The-Lucky-Country.pdf

Throw & Mow/No-till Principles.
Any one of these methods alone will help improve the quality of your soil, but if you also implement the no-till or throw & mow principles of not disturbing the soil any more than necessary & the utilization of cover crops that are taught by Ray Archeletta of the NRCS, you will get the best of both worlds and see very quick results. It doesn't have to be a long term approach. Remember the results from the last example happened in a little over a year. After you watch the video link below you might be thinking those guys are farmers with all of the no-till equipment, that won't work for me on a smaller scale when it comes to food plotting, because I don't have all that equipment. But the principles that CNC has been promoting are the same. It's just the way you go about using them that are different. As CNC has explained with the Throw & Mow, you simply put the seed out first and then mow everything down on top of the seed. This works great when planting on a smaller scale like food plots. The farmer has to be able to control costs so he has to be more precise on seeding rates etc. so that method doesn't work for them. So when it comes to their cash crops they use no-till planters to control those things, and they plant after the cover crop has been laid down verse before with the throw & mow. But the principles and the results when it comes to soil health improvement, moisture retention, erosion control, reduction of fertilizer costs, natural weed control etc. are the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWXCLVCJWTU


Testing the BRIX
This is an inexpensive way to easily and accurately test the quality of any fruit, vegetable, or forage crop. And in my opinion tells you more about the finished product than soil and PH tests, because it shows you the actual quality of (the end result) the plant/plot that you are growing. Here is a link that will explain the benefits of testing the BRIX.
http://bionutrient.org/bionutrient-rich-food/brix

Be sure and check out all the links for more info, I think you will finding them interesting. It may sound complicated but it's actually really as simple as mix and spray once you understand the concepts and methods.

I have been experimenting with these methods for the last three years because my goal with my farm is to establish low cost high quality pastures along with perennial peanut hay fields for the purpose of raising high quality grass fed organic beef. So in case you were wondering I haven't been doing this just to have pretty plots.

Just be prepared because people will laugh and make fun of you when using these methods. Just like the farmers in the link above who's livelihood depended on it, most folks are reluctant to change. But as you saw from the link, all of those guys found substantial benefits to the no-till cover crop methods once they were willing to try something different. You can also see similar results when studying each of the other methods, people were hesitant, but were excited about the results when the were willing to think outside the box and try something new. I know of another guy who is a hay farmer who won the competition for this highest quality hay for several years in a row who also uses some of these non traditional methods. So the bottom line is that these methods and principles are working on a larger scale for farmers whose livelihood depend on it, and they will also work for you...But be prepared for the naysayers who have always pretty much done the same thing...

I hope this helps

I assume you would spray or mow before the weeds seed out. To keep next years weeds from growing from this years seed??? If you do this for several years shouldnt it greatly reduce your weeds? I know you will always have some weeds that are transferred via wind or animal poop.

It's all about adding organic matter back to the soil and not using chemicals to poison the microbes. Do you have a link to the worm tea stuff you are using? Of course there isn't a distributor for the sea minerals anywhere near me.....

I will try and find a how to link when I get back to office. I have my own worm bed, so other than the cost of the building materials and the worms to stock it, there is little to no costs to using the worm tea. You build the bed in such a way that you can harvest castings through the bottom of the worm bed without disturbing the worms.

Interesting.

Do your clovers get choked out when the grasses and weeds spring up over summer and you just have to treat all clover as an annual?

What would ideal seed rate be for rye,oats,crimson clover,and some turnips for this method?

I've found that the clovers go dormant at some point anyways even in the wet areas. I'm sure there will be some exception but for the most part you're not going to be growing lush clover plots down here in the south during late July...August....during the heat of summer. That's why it doesn't bother me to let other stuff take over as the summer goes on. I need to produce the biomass and if I sprayed it all out trying to grow clover only, then I'd likely end up with a pretty bare, crunchy field toward summer's end.

I have a high deer density so I like to sow my cereals at 100 lbs/ac. You could go as high as 125-150 if you wanted to. Some other folks go with 75 lbs. Tailor it to your situation. Mix in 10 lbs of crimson clover.... 1-2 lbs of turnips.

Westflgator, this is some great info and i really appreciate you taking the time to post it. Luckily, a guy just up the road from me carries the sea minerals. A local dairy just closed its doors, so i'll have to figure out where to get the milk from, as well as the worm tea. I'll start me a worm bed, i guess. What type of worms are you using, red?

Yes, red wigglers. I would recommend trying it on a test plot or two. Take soil samples ahead of time that you can compare after you implement some of these methods. Then compare your Brix on the traditional plots to the test plots as well...

So i take it that you bought a Brix meter, or do you send your samples off? Also, where are you getting raw non-pasterized milk? Dairies can't sell it.

I asked because I have never been able to bring clover back for a second season. Ive mowed, and fertilized, etc. Then it goes dormant summer then never returned in the fall.

I bought a refractometer off of Amazon to test BRIX. I buy the milk from a creamery. Dairies can sell it but not for human consumption.

CNC,
Tell us about spring turnips. When did you plant? How long until the mature? Any deer browsing? Or solely for biomass production?

westflgator, how much of the minerals do you apply per acre? On his website I don't see a recommendation for application.

Actually, I just found on the website where it says 50lbs/acre, which is $50/acre, where did you get the $3/acre figure?

That is if it's put out as a granular broadcast at 50lbs per acre. ($27-30 per bag is what I'm getting it for), but most apply it as a foliar spray, and 1 bag will do 10 acres at a rate of 5lbs per acre to 20 gallons of water. Some only use 4lbs which would do 12 acres per bag. The foliar application goes much further with quicker results, but won't last quite as long as the granular. Some people put out the granular the first couple years along with a foliar application, and then foliar only once the minerals have been added back to the soil.

When are these applications made spring or fall?

As a foliar application you would plant spring or fall plots and then spray onced they are up and estsbished pretty well, gernetally 3-4 weeks after planting On spring plots you may have to spray earlier combined with some fish emulsion if the deer start hammering them. This will repel the deer and fertilize at the same time. Then I usually come back about 4-6 weeks later and spray the Sea90 a second time. I don't put anything down at the time of planting. However, the first couple of years you may want to put out the granular at the time of planting. After that you shouldn't have to use the granular but every 3-4 years.

Last year was the first year I had experimented with spring brassicas. I was having a hard time growing any brassicas during the fall due to browsing so I thought I would do a trial run during the spring to see if I could produce some rotten vegetable type biomass. I more less just threw some seed out toward the end of March and mowed over it when my cereal grains began to bolt. I�m going to try a couple different things this year I think. I may try to throw out some seed in another couple weeks just to see what happens.

They mature pretty quickly....I think it was a matter of a couple months. I did get some browsing but nothing like what we get in the fall. Mix in some radishes with them if you want more browsing. There's something about radishes that makes them more attractive than turnips.

Going to start adding some pics. The lighting could be a little better on this pic but you can still see the organic matter that has been built over the last few years in the top soil horizon. Also notice the scoop of dirt in the background that came from the hole. Like William said in an earlier post�.organic matter is the key. All components are important but the foundation for all of these things we are discussing is rooted in building organic matter.

Is that a recent pic?

Yes...Pic was taken this morning.

Must be nice to have a field that dry.

Westflgator, where can i get fish emulsion? Also, does this stuff make your sprayer smell as bad as i think it will? Is so, how do you get rid of the smell? Run lemon juice thru it?

A 32oz bottle is $6-8 at Walmart. It goes a pretty good ways, just add until you get a pretty fishy smell from the sprayer.

As far a as the residual smell in the tank, I didn't notice a problem once it was rinsed, I noticed it more with the milk than the emulsion, but neither really caused a problem in my opinion.

I actually stumbled up on this by accident. Last year the deer were hammering my SH as it was coming up and I was afraid they were going to kill it before it got going good. I had been reading about milorganite for years but hadn't tried it. I was going to go that route but was at my mother's helping her in the garden and she uses the fish emusion as a fertilizer in her organic garden and the smell was very strong while she was spraying. So I began to think that this would most likely repel deer, because it sure was repelling me at the time she was spraying it. So I decided to give it a try and it seemed to work perfectly for me. I only sprayed once and it kept the deer off of it for about 2-3 weeks and then I began to notice a the deer traffic starting to pick back up after that time. That was just enough time, was very cost effective, and it was easy to put out since I was going to be spraying anyway at that time...

Good info, i appreciate it. Be careful spraying into the wind, i guess you could repel your wife. LOL

CNC,

Have you tried adding organic matter directly to the fields like woods chips, hay, or leaves? My neighbor has a tree business. I love for him to dump a load of wood chips in my backyard. Given a little time and some help from clovers and vetch, it turns into black gold.

Here is another link that really explains everything in a nutshell that CNC is promoting with building organic matter, and the principles and methods that I am using to expedite the growth of the microbial populations which ramp up the activity within the soil/decaying thatch. This link doesn't get into the organic matter as much as it deals with the necessity of the additional trace minerals & the healthy populations of microbes that are needed to feed the plants. It also gives a really good explanation of the importance of the sugar content in the plant and the importance of testing the BRIX. He doesn't get into sea minerals in this video, but you can see the importance of adding those trace minerals back to the soil from his explanation of what it takes to reach optimal plant health. Along with the things listed above he also provides a really good explanation of how our traditional methods of fertilization with synthetic fertilizers are harmful to the soil and it's natural processes. He is mostly dealing with fruits and vegetables in the video, but the concepts apply to all plants. Watch the video in the link provided below, I think some of you will find it interesting.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/09/22/high-performance-agriculture.aspx

My question is this regarding organic matter. What difference does it make if you till it vs no till. The plant material ends up in the soil in either case.

When you till it adds oxygen to the soil and speeds up the decaying process. In other words it deplets your OM faster.

Not to mention losing quality soil due to erosion when you till.

If you have sandy soil and till the OM in, the organic material will actually oxidize in the sand and give you worse soil. It's better to build an organic layer on top

Think about it like this...I don't know if you've ever had a worm bed, but the worms will feed on top where the OM has been added to the top. Not only do the earth worms feed off of this OM so do all the other microscopic critters in the soil that has been talked about above. With the OM being concentrated so will the digested waste being deposited by all the critters feeding on it, this is what is so nutrient rich and in an available form for the plants to utilize. Another way to look at it is with composting. If you take all the materials in a compost pile before they are composted and just scatter them and cut them in, they will not breed the same beneficial fungi and bacteria that they will if they are in a left piled together. It's a little different in that these layers aren't think enough to go through a heat like a compost pile but there is a decaying layer there that creates a better environment for the critters to flourish.

I haven't....although what I'm doing in the summer is more less just growing my own hay. I wish I was a little closer to a chicken industry. One of the benefits of adding chicken litter is that you're also adding organic matter with the nutrients as well as a vibrant microbial community in the manure.

Picture sharing.....taken this afternoon.

In regards to adding organic matter, it seems to me if you are simply mulching you existing crops, you aren't adding appreciably to the soil. It would seem to me that you are simply putting back what the plant took. I would think you'd have to add organic matter from outside the system to make dramatic gains.

William, look at the video in the link that I posted earlier in this thread in regards to no-till/throw n mow. That video will explain more than we can in a post. Those farmers in that video have reduced their input by 70% in some cases simply by utilizing a diversity in cover crops. Those cover crops are simply rolled down into a mat of OM, which then feeds the critters in the soil, that in turn feed the plants. It's not as much the plants feeding the plants, it's more about the OM feeding the microbial populations who then feed the plants.

I agree. I've seen a significant change both visually as well as on soil tests in just a few years. My test plot is growing much, much better.

Sooooo ... I want to try this on a few fields, particularly some where the soil is poor. What is step one this spring? Soil test? If so, do I till in the lime? Leave the lime on top? then plant a cover crop like BW? Then mow once or twice to let it reseed? Then what? Let it sit?

In the fall, spread rye, and clover, fertilize per the soil test, and then mow over the seeds? Or do I need to spray, seed, and then mow?

These plots are small - .5 acres.

Thanks.

If you have sandy soils, lime will leach down thru the profile. I would do a soil test and amend the soil. Disk in the ammendments, unless on sandy soils, then plant buckwheat and try and triple crop it. This should get you into september. You will have plenty of weeds and grasses in your buckwheat by the 3rd time you cut it, which will provide you with carbon credits and thatch. Spraying gly, is a personal choice, although if the standing vegetation is real thick, i would spray 2 weeks before seeding. Add some radish or ptt to your mix to help with hardpan soils, plus it will feed the soils.

Like Blumsden said, spraying is a personal choice. I didn't spray any of mine and they all turned out very well. I wanted to leave the current vegetation (SH) growing while my seed was coming up. The weeds got bit back by the cold, the remaining SH that was still growing after I bush hogged eventually died out as well, and the plots came on strong.

If your turning the plot into a perrenial clover plot, then i recomend spraying to kill whats there, so it wont return in the spring.

I agree with what blum has said as well��The only thing I would add is that I have come to the opinion that planting buckwheat, etc in the summer is really a personal choice too. I�ve tried several different things and I have to question if I�m any better off doing all that versus just growing biomass and natural browse during the summer. Most of us are dealing with small plots, relatively speaking, which makes it really hard to grow any significant amounts of ice cream type �crops� such as the previous mentioned. If in the end your efforts just end up being nothing more than a novelty�.then you really haven�t accomplished too much.

I didn't have any luck loading the soil test results but here is the summary:

pH was 5.8 and CEC was a 5,

Recommendation was for 30lb/M of dolomitic lime and 2lb/M of P and K for the

upcoming year. I would say that we need to increase our OM to help with the

CEC. I will add some 11-52-0 and potash to meet our P and K needs as well in

the next few weeks and test again in the fall.

Please feel free to make any other suggestions.

What CEC do y'all shoot for?

Has anyone on here ever tried to plant any Whitetail Imperial clover? The field I am thinking about trying it in has moisture in it pretty much year around. Its located in a river bottom. I do have my green fields turn yellow towards the end of season although I fertilize them periodically throughout.

I haven't done it personally, but know someone who does with great results. You could try a small area to see how it goes, instead of jumping in with both feet. Cause I know it's expensive.

Yes it is N2! I have to confess to planting about 2 acres of it last year but covered it up too deep due to a mistake I made. What did come up looked great. I thought after turkey season goes out I'd try to do a better job at it this go around. If you ever want to go on a hunt let me know. I am covered up in birds.

I would like a CEC of 15-20 but I am not sure it will be attainable in this sandy soil.

The sandier the soil the more likely for your nutrients to leach out. Organic matter can

help hold that fertilizer around so your plants can utilize them.

I hate that happened. Thanks for the invite.

The person that you know did he say if the deer hit it hard or not? I figured the turkeys would like it, although not as much as the chufas I plant.

I believe the deer ate it too.

Imperial clover is a great clover and deer and turkey love it. Only problem i have is that it is so expensive. A lot of the bag you buy has inexpensive berseem clover in it as well, but your still paying a premium price. Plant it in the fall and get a control on all your weeds and grasses before you plant it. I would use the throw and mow method that way you cant get it too deep and your not bring up new weed seed.

Was thinking about throw and mowing in the next two weeks with some buckwheat, turnips, and radishes. The cereal grains are finally starting to get some height to them. Figured a throw and mow in a couple of weeks would be a good idea.

Not sure where your located, but i wouldn't plant any warm season plantings before April 15th, in Alabama. Late frost will kill it, plus soil temps are not where they need to be. I don't plant until the end of April, just to make sure. The brassica's would be ok, but buckwheat is easily killed by a lite frost.

Well I tried this another way and I think it worked.

It would be great to have a CEC of 15-20+ but that's probably not feasible in sandy soil. The sand just doesn't really add anything to your holding capacity.....no negative charges. You're getting most of your holding capacity from the organic matter in this situation.

That's a different looking soil report Waldo. I wish they would have put your recommendations in a different unit. You would probably be just fine to wait a month and then add 50 lbs/ac of 0-46-0 and 50 lbs/ac of 0-0-60. That's not completely ideal but if you're only going to grow natural vegetation this summer then you could wait until later toward the end of the summer to really bring the levels on up. Just depends on how much $$$ you want to put into it. It wouldn't hurt to hit it with a little nitrogen in a couple months too just to help push the growth this summer. Definitely go ahead and get your lime out in full.

For sure don�t plant any buckwheat yet. It needs soil temps to be up around 80 degrees before you plant it. If I was going to do anything early, I�d wait until things begin to bud out a little and the deer quit hammering the plots�.then I�d try some turnips right before some good rain. They�re killing my plot right now. I don�t think any kind of young seedling would have a chance to get established. Another couple weeks though and it�ll shut off like a light switch.

My fields are planted in crimson and white clover with some rye as well right now. Hopefully when that dies back it will add to the OM and we may get some natural browse to come in.

What about over seeding in buck wheat or vetch?

Do you think it would come up without any cultivation?

Germination right now for you will depend a lot on the soil surface conditions. It�s going to take a few rotations once tillage is stopped for the soil surface to soften up and become more favorable for germinating seed this way. You could try mixing in some buckwheat if you want to but it may or may not really be a benefit to you. They hammered it here and wiped mine out when I tried to grow it. It lasted about 3 weeks and then I was back to growing grass and weeds.

Hairy vetch is a good plant to get started in your plot but you'll want to add it to your fall mix just like you do clover. The vetch will then come on strong in the spring and reseed itself. It's a good biomass and N producer. It'll climb on your cereal grains as they mature.

The purple flowers are on the hairy vetch....

Would you recommend another combination of clover seeds that might off set the price? I don't mind the price as long as I get the results. The area I want to plant is about 1.75-2 acres.

We planted Ladino and Durana clover at a club that I was in once. That worked out pretty well.

Ladino and durana are really good choices, as N2TRKYS mentioned, but both are really slow to establish, so i would mix in some patriot clover with it. I also plant cereal rye with mine as a cover crop at about 75lbs/acre. Durana runs about $5/lb. To have and keep a perrenial clover plot, your soil needs to be able to hold moisture and be partially shade during the hottest parts of the day during late summer, or it will be toast. Rainfall is sketchy at best that time of the year. Make sure before you spend that type of money, that its a good place for a perrenial clover plot.

I planted rye, crimson clover and advantage clover and was very happy with my 1st year results using the Throw & Mow method. I chose to give this method of plotting a try due to a variety of issues including erosion, sandy soil, wild turnips and extremely wet plots. So far, this method has exceeded my expectations and I will be expanding on it this coming year.

yuchi (sp?) is another easy clover to grow that I have had good luck with. I have planted a lot of it along with crimson in bare ground cutovers and had great success. we would get 2-3 yrs out of a planting just from the reseeding.

I will be using the throw and mow approach in the fall due to necessity. I disked, broadcast, and covered as I usually do this year.

From what I have read on this thread.............In order to have the best set up to plant next fall, I really need to leave everything and let the natural vegetation go all summer until ready to plant next October as opposed to planting any summer crops?

What can I expect the first year of throw and mow? Will the plots be really spotty? (I have always tried to have plots that looked like a well manicured lawn)

I wouldn't worry about trying to grow anything much during the first summer. Just make sure the natural summer vegetation is thriving so that you don't end up with a naked looking plot when fall planting arrives. You want to have plenty of thatch. The first year results will really depend on what you're starting with. A plot that naturally stays moist will fair much better in the beginning that one on top of a hill that stays drier. A lot of the success with germinating a seed this way relies on soil moisture. As you build organic matter in the soil and begin to cover the soil surface with thatch....your ability to hold soil moisture will increase and so will the success in germinating seed by throwing and mowing.

Has anyone ever cultipacked after throw and mow? I'm wondering if it will press the seed since the soil isn't disturbed.

That's the way some of the guys on the QDMA forum do it. I don't think any of them have every done a side by side experiment though to see how much it helps. Seems like it would have to help some.

Here are pics of my oats taken yesterday. As I stated before they've had no traditional fertilizer or amonite on them. Oats are normally looking pretty rusty by now with traditional methods without treatment to prevent it...

The deer browsing has begun to ease up now and my cereal rye is starting to bolt. Another few weeks and it'll be chest deep.

They are still hitting mine pretty hard at the moment but I'm sure it won't last much longer and they will be hitting more of the natural browse.

Looking good CNC

Same here. I'm itching to throw some summer stuff out and mow the cereals down.

Thanks!



It won't be long. My clover is starting to pop its head up some too along with some hairy vetch.

When do you know it's the right time to mow it down?

You need to let it go to seed to be able to terminate by mowing. If you do anything any sooner than that then you�ll need to spray. The cereal grains will go to seed around the end of April or early May. These spring months are the time when you want to let your clover do its thing. It should thrive for the next couple months.

So...... Late April throw out some Buckwheat and Turnips/Radishes and then mow the cereals to the ground?

Yes��Something to keep in mind though and I�ll throw this out there again�..is that we�re not really just trying to grow a field of turnips and buckwheat alone...or whatever it may be. You�re just adding them into the mix and giving the field some more diversity. You still want some of the natural summer growth to grow as well. Our goal with this method during the summer is to produce biomass while still keeping the field attractive to deer with lush browse. Too many people still have the mindset that we�re trying to completely emulate the farmer. The farmer calls this and that a weed and we follow suit labeling many things as �bad�. We are not farming a single crop though and many of those other plants that the farmer curses are very beneficial to us from the standpoint of producing biomass as well as deer browse. We need that grass component in there�..we need that broadleaf component in there�..we need that legume. What we are trying to emulate is a very diverse and very fertile prairie ecosystem.

Got it.

I went and looked at a couple of my Throw & Mow plots yesterday and they look great. By far, this is the best clover stand that I have had on this place in the 7 years that I've had it. Soil is not very good and in the past I've had to deal with erosion on 3 of 6 plots, but I've had no issues this year even with the heavy amounts of rain we've received. I have a couple of plots that I plan to spray next month to eliminate unwanted "grass" and then I plan to lime in May.

What will you use for hay later on if you kill off your grass species? What will produce your biomass?

With gardening season fast approaching I thought I would show how I�m using cereal rye in the garden. Do you remember how folks were making crop circles several years ago by using a 2X4 and rope to flatten down the crops? That�s the same general thing that I�ll do with this bed in another couple weeks. I�ll flatten down the cereal rye all in one direction, nice and neat like. I�ll then come in behind that and spray it to kill everything. Once the mat dies and begins to dry down then I�ll come back and set out my seedlings with a wee/moisture barrier already in place. I'll update this as I go along.

The idea came from this video��..Many may have seen it before but if not then this is a very good place to start with your throw and mow experiments.

Undercover Farmers

Cnc have you ever watched the back to Eden it is along the same lines as throw and mow.

video?http://www.backtoedenfilm.com/

I don't think I've seen that one. I'll check it out though.

270wsm......I got your text. Would you mind of we discussed your fields on the thread so everyone can learn from it and participate? If there's something you want to keep private about your lease/land then I completely understand. No problem.

My field has really jumped over the last week with the warm weather. It�s between knee and waist deep now in many areas and turning a deep bluish green.

Frost advisory here in Bham tonight.

I tried a sort of a throw and mow behind the house. After I bush hogged a small pasture I broadcast some crimson clover in the thatch and figured it would come on up. The results have been poor. I put about 25 pounds of seed on about 2 acres and the clover is very sparse at best.

I think we're ok down here this morning. Its always a roll of the dice this time of year with late frosts. Just about all of my fruit tress except the apples are blooming out right now too.



Hard to say on that one. Maybe super hard surface? Really low pH? Too dry of an area?.....Not sure....Crimson clover is one of the easiest things to establish. I usually find that folks have success with clover this way even if the other things struggle.

CNC- I was traveling to the camp and had a quick question and didn't have time to post on here. I already got the answer.

Yea, hard to figure why the CC didn't work, afterall, it re-seeds itself the next year, without any help.

Is it 'cause he mowed then throwed instead of the other way around?

Cathead, your probably right. I didn't catch that when i read it, although i sprayed a field too early last year and the grass layed down in a mat before i had time to seed it. I was worried the seed wouldn't reach the ground, but i raised the thatch and found a lot of seed on the soil surface. I used a drag anyway, and drug the field in the opposite direction that it was laying and then drug it back down and had the best stand of any plot.

Got a few seed head starting to pop out now......Rye really growing fast.



Clover filling in the understory. Mostly crimson but also some yuchi arrowleaf here and there that reseeded itself from the year before.

Getting ready to put some maters in the ground. I love tomato sandwiches in the summer.

Rye sprayed and pressed.

That's a great video for anyone who is even remotely interested in the principles behind no-till/throw & mow. That is one of the videos that I watched when I first started experimenting a few years back. I posted it in a previous thread as well because it has a thorough explanation of all the benefits of this method.

Ok so I've read this whole topic. What I've gathered is : the purpose is to create organic matter or biomass during the spring and summer. When it's time appropriate mow all this down and spray with gly(personal choice). Plant around 2 weeks later by throwing seed and not tilling.


Assuming that's all correct, I have an area that's subject to erosion, From bulldozer work that was done over Christmas time. (Before all the rain now It's staying very wet right now)I have planted some winter rye about a month ago that looks great and helping with erosion for now. My question is what can I do/plant to prevent from having to till again before the rye dies? I did throw out 10lbs of bahaia grass with the rye. I'm aware that I need to do a soil sample which I will get done.

I'm very new to planting food plots and I'm not very familiar with terminology. I did my first plots last year (always had a buddy that did them and never worried with it) with no soil testing with Crimson clover and a three blend mix from the feed store. So type slow or dumb it down if you will.

I'd play it by ear. Just let it keep growing right now. Watch and see if some natural vegetation starts coming back from the seed bank. If so, then I'd just mow the rye and throw out some fert/lime this summer. In an infertile situation where all the organic matter is gone....it is easier in the beginning to just grow the plants that were put on this Earth for the purpose of reclaiming those areas. As an example of what I mean.....I had a lot of crabgrass come back in my field in the beginning. It thrived in the very poor conditions while other things that I tried to plant suffered and were much more finicky to the infertile soil. You would be just as well off in the first couple summer rotations to grow the plant that will thrive and produce biomass to get the process turned arouund....rather than trying to grow something from a bag that just suffers or grows half arse. I see a lot of folks want to grow this, that, or the other and end up still behind the eight ball when the summer ends because it failed or was eaten up.

Cactus, this is throw and mow, not mow and throw. Sew your seed, then mow it down over the top. Brown top millet grows well in poor soil and is cheap, about $26/50lb bag. It is used to prevent soil erosion.

I agree with blum......millet would be a good option if you want to throw something out before you mow the rye down. I wouldn't spray and kill the other stuff though.

Thanks guys

Been planting plots s long time.

This is the way to go hands down. As I convert all my annual plots to this out wI'll save me at least 24 hours of tractor time. I already sprayed and mowed them anyway.

The plots I tried this in this year were a success beyond my expectations. Even though I always had really good plots it was obvious my germination rate was much higher. It eliminated both bird predation on my seed (only thing I could call it) and covering to deep in my opinion.

And it seemed to curb what little weed problem I had from time to time.

Getting over the mental hurdle of doing something different is the hardest part. I�m guessing that there�s a lot of guys out there in south Alabama right now that just watched a freshly tilled garden get washed away and eroded. They�ll start over now and not think anything about it because that�s the way its always been done.

I also think it saved my plots due to the extreme drought we had after planting in mid September. I'm in TN so we plant earlier than most here.

Everday i drive buy peoples garden that has been tilled and just sitting there, and wondered, why? What is the thought process? Heavy rains wash it away, sun dries it up and if you'll notice most of them have absolutely no OM in the dirt.

It�s just human nature. For most folks, it�s the way it�s always been done. It�s the way Granddaddy did it. When folks get set it their ways with something like this then it�s extremely hard to get them to see anything else. Only the really open minded people will even give change consideration. Some will just out right reject change no matter what. The part that slays me the most if you�ll watch over time�..is that there�s constantly folks on here with stories about planting with the traditional tillage method and having failures or poor results. All of those failures just get chalked up to�..

�Well, it just be like that sometimes.��....

.... and the foundation of the method is never put into question. It doesn�t matter how many times someone�s plot washes away or looks chitty or how much fertilizer they waste, etc.��.they will scratch their heads and just get the plow back out to start over.

To compound the problem, you have a select few folks out there who naturally have an ideal mix of sand, silt, clay that�s like the Cadillac of soils. Those soils will grow great plots very easily and can withstand heavy tillage without seeing the same degree of negative consequences someone with sandy soil might see. Those are the plots you see people posting pics of the most often and it really distorts people�s perceptions of what�s actually happening or why folks are having success. Other folks try to replicate the same process in a sand pit and don�t get the same results�..been there, done that.

The rye has terminated and is now drying out in the mater bed. I�m going to start putting some in the ground after this next cold snap we�ve got coming up. Anyone who has a no till drill can plant food plots with the same general method I�m using for this small garden area. The process is shown in the video �Undercover Farmers� that was posted a page or so back. We�re applying the same principles�..weed suppressant, moisture retention, minimal soil disturbance, add organic matter/root structure/soil structure, erosion prevention, etc�......Throw and mow is just a variation of the same technique.

The rye in the field is maturing and is around 5-6 ft tall. I'm holding the camera at the top of my head to take this pic for reference. Most of it would likely terminate now if you mowed it. It mows easier if you let it dry out.

A few pears around the edge of the field��fifteen total. They�re still young now but they should really put out some fruit in another few years.

Crimson, those must not be grafted pear tree's, because mine are only 4 years old and smaller than yours and they had pears last year, and look to be loaded this year. I think i'll have to pull a lot of them to keep my limbs from breaking.

It's the pear package from the Wildlife Group plus a couple of strays I picked up. They've been in the ground 3 years now I believe. Pretty much full sunlight. Most things I've planted likes this sandy loam soil....sawtooths love it. I had them produce some pears last year but nothing like the bucket fulls that they'll one day make.

As far as the throw and mow goes,what if your bushhog doesn't scatter the grass under it while cutting. Mine rows to one side coming out the back. I've used land prides before and they mulch the grass up evenly behind the bushhog which would give the seed good coverage but with the Howse brand that I have it doesn't do that. I didn't wanna waste a alot of money on seed to have it come up in rows and feed the birds. I thought about letting my fields die off and put my seed out and just disk once to get a little dirt up and let the wheat and oats cover the seed kinda like CNC did his garden.

Try reducing your RPMs. This provided more even distribution for me.

Tried that and tried changing the pitch of how it sets,and the height of it still rows to one side.

A finishing mower would probably mulch the grass better. You could just drag the grains down, like in crimson's mater garden. My old bushhog, doesn't chop it up as good as i want, but it works.

I think that would probably work fine. You may even want to take a little of the bite out of your disks so that they don't try to plow up the dirt but more less just scratches the top of the ground up and cultipacks the vegetation.

From a mowing perspective....I have a Landpride bushhog and it does pretty good at scattering the hay. Even still though, most of the thatch crops I've put down have been really thick and just didn't process up well enough on the first pass. I'd still get a little wind rowing too with the heavy vegetation. It was the second pass back across the field that really scattered the hay and processed it up well. On that pass I would make sure to center any of the windrows from the first pass and they would disappear....distributing the hay much more evenly.

Got a pretty cool pic of an ol' turkey hen today dusting herself on the edge of the test field....

Just checking in to see if its time to throw and mow for Spring.

Still too early����..



Just let the clover keep doing it�s thing. You want to wait and let it go to seed��free seed. Really need to wait until about Mid-May to do anything. I know its tough to wait when everyone else starts firing their tractors up but it�s better to be patient and let things play out.

Their parents did it, and their grandparents did it, and everyone else does it. So, they do it.

Mater bed continued���.

Looking good crimson. I didn't plant any rye this past fall on my garden, i planted ptt. I should have come back with some rye this spring, but couldn't find any. I'm planning on putting a heavy layer of mulc on my garden this year, dgallow recommended that one time. A friend told me that would burn up my tomatoes, any truth to that? I don't see how it could. Black plastic doesn't.

Thanks!......

Not that I�m aware of. I guess we�ll find out for sure. I think if it were to cause issues then it would maybe be from mold or fungus. I�m going to keep everything pruned out below the first scaffolding to allow good air flow at ground level. It�ll also allow for spot spraying if any weeds break though.

Cereal rye is just starting to dry down now. The deer with hammer those seed heads once they dry out.

CNC I really want to try throw and mow how do you think something like no plow or no til seed work? That wouldn't cost that much and maybe leed to more experimental plantings. everyone in club is not hooked on idea. I'm all for better soil and this may be a way to get them to believe.

It wouldn�t be the end of the world if you wanted to do an experiment with one plot but I wouldn�t use those throw and grow products unless you just have to. Just about all of them are filled with rye grass. Try to find some cereal rye next fall and use it (Elbon rye or Wrens Abruzzi rye). It�ll sprout just about as easy as the rye grass and it�s a much better choice for deer forage. It�s more expensive than wheat but you get what you pay for. It out performs wheat on poor soils and it doesn�t go N deficient so easily like wheat does either.

Just picture sharing�... Looks like it�ll be another prolific crop of Chickasaw plums this year. These will drop over a several week time frame next month. I�ll set up a camera on them when they do and see what all comes to them.

I picked a little bit of the rye straw by hand to thicken up a few places in my gardens. You can get a good idea by looking at this pic where I took the straw from just how much organic biomass will be recycled back to the soil�..not just above ground but also in the massive root structure created below the soil surface.



Just happened to catch a little bird flying in and out of one my houses���

I hated to spray this plot, but trying to get rid of Johnson grass/ Fescue/ Indian grass/or whatever type of grass that I have in this plot and one other.



Here's a photo of the "grass" that I'm trying to eliminate

I continue to be impressed with the Throw & Mow results and look forward to year 2. In years past this plot had been over taken by wild turnips. This year the rye, crimson and advantage clover are thriving.

Looking good 270wsm!!!! What's the plan for the summer on those plots?

I pulled soil samples Sat and sent them off today. Plan on liming and bush hogging in May/June, but that's about it. Hopefully, I'll have a good "grass" kill on 2 plots I sprayed and won't have to spray them again or at least not until Aug/Sept.

One of my plots, which is about 2 acres, looks like 270wsm's above. The rye is taller, but the crimson clover looks just like his.

Last fall, I limed it and brought the ph up to 6.3 this year. Not quite neutral, but not bad either. I was actually thinking about doing some throw and mow this summer of peas or other good food. My only other option is just to lime and disc the lime in, and maybe plant some summer crop or soil building crop like buckwheat or sun hemp the old-fashioned way.

I'd really like to try the throw and mow method for the summer at least on this one plot. What do you think? Good idea? Bad idea? If a good idea, what to plant? and how?

Soil test also says I need 0-90-60 (lbs) for phosphorus and potassium per acre for iron clay peas. Loam and light clay soil.

Thanks.

I may have overlooked it, but what is the process of liming while using the throw and mow? Do you just top dress it?

Thats exactly how i put out my lime.

Yes, just top dress it. Someone who is just starting out though, needs to assess the condition/type of their soil and let that be a consideration as well. If you are dealing with a hard clay that has been tilled in the past and has a very compacted, crusted over surface.....then it would be better to go ahead and cut the lime in. In sandier conditions it wouldn't be as big of a concern. Once you get your soil gets turned around even in heavier clays though, your soil structure will change and allow better infiltration. That's really the basis for the decision. Is lots of water running off of your plot or is it soaking up in the ground?

If I were just starting the throw and mow method, I'd wait until fall and do my first planting with a cereal grain, clover, brassica mix. I'd spend this summer getting ready for that planting by mowing down those mature cereal grains and getting a mulch layer started on the soil surface. I'd then work on getting your nutrients right during the summer and allowing the plot to grow another crop of biomass from the natural vegetation which will be used to cover over your fall seed with another mulch layer.

Have you considered throwing out some millet for a cover crop in those sprayed fields for the purpose of putting a quick canopy over the soil surface?

CNC-

Yes, I have some milo that I've thought about broadcasting. I'm going to wait and see what type of burn I get on the plots and then make a decision. If it's a complete burn then I will definitely add back seed for thatch.

We ideally want to try and grow a diverse mix of plants with a nice balance between them. Here around the edge of my field, the cereal grains have received more grazing pressure and therefore were thinned out more than the interior of the field. This thinner canopy has allowed the understory to receive more light and flourish more than the thicker interior that�s more shaded. The picture below shows a pretty nice balance of diversity.

This concept dealing with canopy�.overstory�understory..etc� is an important one to understand. I probably should have gone ahead and mowed the rye one time right before it went to seed. That would have terminated some of the plants and thinned out the rye some. It�s a lot thicker than I thought. On a side note�pay attention to your cereal grain production in the spring, It can tell you a lot about your plots productivity as well as the browsing pressure its receiving. Many small plots won�t even produce grain because the deer keep them eat down too much. Other plots won�t produce grain because soil conditions are too poor. As you improve the soil conditions, you may likely see more grain production.



This yellow flower I believe is cutleaf evening primrose. Start thinking outside of the box that we�ve put food plotting in. Listen to the deer more than the farmer to tell you what is good and what is bad. Crimson clover is �pretty� this time of year and therefore you�ll get a lot of folks who want to use that scene to represent a great deer plot.....and at one point in time it was. However, just like Joe pointed out�.Do the deer think that picture of pure crimson is just as pretty? Hell no�.They quit feeding on crimson clover a couple weeks earlier as it began to harden off and go to seed. You want to have diversity. Most of your �weeds� are the enemies of farmers...�not goats.

That's kind of what I did last year. I planted cereal grains (mostly rye), CC, and rape in this plot. I spread one ton of lime per acre before doing so. That brought the ph up to 6.3 from 5.8. Given that, is your advice the same?

Also, when you say, "work on getting your nutrients right during the summer" what do you mean? More lime and disc it in then let natural vegetation grow?

Thanks for your help.

Holding capacity for nutrients is like a bucket. Depending on soil type and organic matter content some plots will have a big bucket�.some plots will have a small bucket. Either way you still want to try and keep a balanced ratio of all nutrients within your bucket. Take �K� as an example. The optimum �K� level for my plot right now is around 210 lbs/ac. I tested my plot a couple falls ago after having added some 0-0-60 and I was running 220 lbs/ac which is great. Cut to the following spring when I did another soil test and my levels had dropped to around 180 lbs/ac. You�ll often here people talk about adding 0-20-20 in the spring to fertilize their clover. That really misrepresents what�s going on though. You don�t really fertilize the plant�.you fertilize the soil. That following spring I added another dusting of potash (0-0-60) not to �fertilize the clover� but rather to get my K levels back up into the optimum range. Your nutrients such as Ca (lime), P, and K will stay in the soil for long time periods if soil conditions are good. It is very possible that if you keep those levels in check during May, June then at most you will probably only need a small dusting at fall planting to bring levels back up or maybe even none at all. Again, change the way you think about fertilizing. We�re not fertilizing the plant�.we�re adding nutrients to the soil. The soil �fertilizes� the plant.

Nitrogen is a little different beast. It has a very short life compared to the other nutrients. From what I can tell, I get about 5-6 weeks out of a nitrogen application. Adding nitrogen to a plot is like giving an engine more gas. All of those other nutrients are like the individual components of the engine. If you get them in proper balance with one another then when you give the engine gas�.it�ll go! Adding nitrogen to your plot is like stepping on the go, go, grow gas pedal. It needs to be added to produce more yield.

Let me stop right there for now���..Questions?

Going to the co-op today to pickup a Spring mix. Throw and mow tomorrow ahead of the rain. Not sure what I'm gonna plant.


Mix had: iron clay peas, soybeans (Hutchenson), WGF sorghum, sunflowers, and buckwheat.

I hear you, CNC, but do you just broadcast it or do you cut in your lime and fertilizer?

Just broadcast it unless you are dealing with some really hard clay soil.

Of course we didn't get the rain we were supposed to today......

Any pics of the field before/after planting?

Would have been nice wouldn't it?

Yeah....it makes it a lot easier to answer questions when folks have them. If you take enough pictures then its almost as good as someone being able to walk the plot themselves.

Soil temps are looking much better now for many of our summer plot species. It's still low though for things like buckwheat or egyptian wheat. They call for 80 degree temps on those I believe. I think sorghum may be in that class too but I don't recall for sure without looking it up. You can see the difference that just a couple weeks has made and why its important to check soil temps when deciding when to plant in the spring. Soils temps have risen over 10 degree.

Cereal grains continuing to dry.........

Some good info on cereal rye....

Link

No-till tomato update.....Some of the plants are starting to reach the first set of scaffolds now and as they do I'm going ahead and pruning off the lower limbs. The plants are really growing fast. I'll have to get a second row of scaffolding going pretty soon.

Must be nice to have dry ground this time of year.

My field is on a rise with a low drainage on either side. It has it's advantages an disadvantages. There's never really a time when I can't access it to do what I want to but on the flip side, it also gets dry a lot quicker than I'd like sometimes as well.

No-till maters continued���You can do a bigger traditional looking garden using these same methods. I have to grow anything I do behind a fence due to the deer. It would just require that this coming fall you prep for it by over seeding a cover crop of cereal rye into your garden. Once you press down the rye in the spring, a weedeater turned up sideways can be used to cut out rows. Same way you would use a weedeater to edge a sidewalk.

A tomato stalk will make new roots if you cover the stem with dirt. I wish I had some chicken litter to mix in with this dirt I�m adding.

You'd need a 4wd 4-wheeler to drive across ours, until about July during a normal year. I guess banking enough tonnage on small acreage to last until Spring green up is my technique like the throw and mow is a technique you use. However, it would be alot easier if I had your large acreage and dry ground.

Why are you pruning the lower limbs? Never mind, i posted before reading your last post. DUH

I got my soil samples back on Friday.

Those soil tests look pretty good 270....A little bit of this and a little bit of that and you'll be good to go.

Is this White Dutch? It grows all over the place and seems to tolerate mowing very well. My White Dutch doesn't like being this short.

Not 100% sure but it very likely is....I think that's what you mostly see growing in yards or around ball fields, etc....It's a short clover and doesn't produce as much forage as some other varieties from what I've read.

I like it mixed in the yard. Adds N and the deer and rabbits like it.

Rye grain is pretty brown now and the crimson clover blooms are fading. If I were going to plant a summer plot then this would be the front end of my planting window for doing so.

Crimson, i've decided to mulch my garden with newspapers instead of hardwood mulch. I can get all the newspapers i want from the local office. Keeps weeds at bay, feeds worms, holds moisture, and breaks down into the soil. Surprisingly, my garden spot has a fair amount of clay. I think i'll plant some radish,ptt and rye come fall, instead of just ptt.

That�s a good idea. It makes a lot of sense to cover the bare soil.

I was doing some bushhogging and couldn�t resist making one pass over the rye. It sure does process a lot easier after its brown. I think I'm going to throw some millet out and mow the rest in a week or so just in case I want to shoot some doves this fall.

Dr. Grant Woods with some interesting info. It's not exactly throw and mow per se, but he eschews the benefits of not disking in one of the videos in the link below.
http://m.growingdeer.tv/clips/

Same principles except for no til planter.

And the herbicide.

No, if you've read CNC's numerous posts on throw and mow, that program calls for regular use of herbicide.

I haven't used any herbicide in a couple years now but it doesn't have to be done that way. If you need to spray some gly then it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Excactly.....Don't get too hung up on doing exactly what I'm doing. It's more important to understand the general principles and then adapt the process to meet your individual needs/goals. I'm getting the same soil health benefits as Dr. Woods talks about in the video....I'm just tweaking the method since I don't have a drill.

That video Grant Woods shot was at mine and loprofile's neighbors place in south Montgomery county. loprofile actually was there and said that it was a very interesting and informational meeting. Grant has a total different approach to farm than the traditional farming but it appears to be paying off for him on his own place along with clients places.

That�s pretty cool! I noticed loprofile in the audience.

Been working on the understory of my property for several years converting it from an understory dominated by a privet monoculture to a much more diverse array of plant species. Lots of goat food in there.

Hack n� Squirt with pure gly does kinda work but I�m really not getting enough kill with it to be completely satisfactory. Being that I�m just doing it here on my small home property its not a big deal if I have to go back and hack some trees again�..but if say you were being hired by someone to h&s 100 acres of trash trees then I wouldn�t be ok with it. I�m getting maybe 40-50% pure kill with it depending on the size and species�. another 10-25% that looks sick but keeps hanging on�.and the rest that keeps on trucking. This section of trash trees has been stunted and they look to be struggling�but I may have to hack some of them again to get a complete kill. I have been getting a good kill on privet though using H&S with pure gly.

New understory growth coming in as the trash overstory dies out. You can see a little bit of privet still present and blooming out in the midstory that will soon be eliminated,

I've purposely left a few privet stumps for now to show what used to be. This stump is very representative of the size privet I was originally dealing with. It pretty much dominated the entire understory of this property. It's now being replaced with much more productive species. That's a sawtooth behind it.

.....along with multiple other species of mast producing trees..........

It don't rain soon, i won't be growing anything this spring. Dry as a bone here. I always like to time my plantings with a rain, thats hard to do when there is none.

Tell me about it. I finished planting 3 AC of soybeans/corn a week or so ago with the following day projected at 60% and the next day 80%. Glad I did not bet the 401K on those odds cause I got 0% and nothing much projected until Friday.

I�ve gotten a good bit of rain this spring over here in my neck of the woods. Hot weather is about to be here though. I�m getting ready to bring in the lime truck. You can�t tell it from the pic but there is a lot summer vegetation beginning to emerge under the rye. I�m just going to release it and hit it with a little fert along with my lime.

My orange mule is out of gas. Gotta make a run to get some diesel fuel.

CNC , your bush hogging now to promote summer vegetation ? Rather than leave it all standing until fall planting or is there seed and fertilizer beneath the mowed section. I'm guessing it's easier on the transmission to cut periodically throughout the summer so the bio mass mat isn't to thick ?

If I didn't need to spread some lime then I wouldn't do anything to it. My pH still sucks though and I've decided to just make that my top priority this summer. Figured I'd put down the hay and then call in the spreader truck. It's actually mowing really easy. In the future I'll probably mow the rye early while its still green when it first starts to set seed to thin it out some and then let it go from there. When I get my pH where I want it, I hope to have a better component of yuchi and durana clover.

Here�s some yuchi arrowleaf that came back this year from seed. I didn�t put any in last fall�s mix. Hopefully this round of lime is going to get my pH up into the 6�s and I�m going to sow a full rate of yuchi and durana again.



Some patches of durana are still hanging in there as well and beginning to emerge. Like I was saying, if it weren�t for really needing to get the lime truck in here�.I�d just have let this stuff alone.

Bring on the lime truck!......Field is mulched and water control measures in place...... It would take some pretty heavy rains now for water to move in any other direction but down.

Is there any Summer Planting that works with Throw -Mow -Grow ? Sunflowers ? Millet ? ICP ?

Millet, buckwheat, ICP's would be your best options although I'm not a real big fan of summer plots unless you have significant acreage to plant and plenty of extra cash to put into it. For most of us with an acre here or an acre there on a hunting club budget....we'd be better off just to work on getting the soil right and growing clover mixed with natural vegetation that's lush, healthy and producing plenty of biomass rather than watching the deer decimate an acre of beans sprouts.

Damn!.....That didn�t take long. They must have smelled the fresh cut rye.

Had to get the DIY lime. The co-op was backed up for a while on their spreader truck. It worked out fine though since my field is so easy to access as well as being flat and no-tilled. It didn�t really put that much strain on my truck. There�s a lot of situations where I'd hate to have to use a truck for this though. I imagine you could burn the transmission up in one pretty easy.



Slightly over 2 acres��.5200 lbs applied.

150 lbs of 34-0-0���100 lbs of 0-0-60���.50 lbs of 0-46-0��this is the total amount applied to slightly over 2 acres��basically half everything if you want it on a per acre number. I haven�t had a soil test this spring but from haven gotten one every spring and fall now for several years, I have a good idea of what�s happening. All I�m trying to do with the P&K is just dust the field with enough this summer to keep those levels bumped up into acceptable ranges. I�ll pull another soil sample at the end of the summer and see what we look like before fall planting. I�m applying a little bit of N because the hay is going to suck some nitrogen out of the soil in the decomposition process. This will help keep the field from running completely on empty as far as nitrogen goes. I still want to grow a lush field of vegetation this summer. The hay will eventually return some of the N to future plants in an organic form.

Replenished my state of the art gravity flow mineral lick��patent pending. I think I may have tweaked a muscle in my arse when I picked the block up over the side of the truck bed. Is that even possible? Can you pull a sphincter muscle? I bet Troy would know���.#gettinoldsucks....

I can help with those seed eating buzzards...

The feathered rats were back again this afternoon. That gobbler has one helluva beard on him.

Why does your lime leech out that bad and nothing else? What do you think your ph was prior to application?

It wasn�t added due to heavy leaching. The application of lime I made two springs ago just didn�t raise the Ca and pH levels up enough. I went from 5.1 to 5.8��300 lbs/ac of Ca to roughly 950 lbs/ac�.but it never went any higher. When I checked last fall it was still in that same range. I should have already added some more lime last year. Keep in mind too that over the last several years my holding capacity for Ca has grown as my organic matter levels in the soil have grown. I probably need around 1500+ lbs/ac of Ca present in the soil now to balance�.maybe more. I�ll pull another sample in a few months and see how we look right before fall planting.

How much lime did you add to only bring it up 0.7?

It was around 3,000 lbs/ac. I noticed it had a lot of larger lime particles in it. One of the reasons I haven�t added any more lime until now is because I could actually still see pieces of lime in the soil a year after the first application. I thought maybe the pH and Ca would continue to come up as that Ca broke down. One thing I�m curious about is how deep the lime leaches in my really sandy soil. The layer of soil down below the 6-7 inches of black organic soil I�ve built has a horrible pH of 4.9-5.0�..I�ve measured it before and it�s 4ft down to the clay layer in the center of the field. That�s a lot of cubic feet of dirt.

Dang. That's a lot of lime for not much movement. It would've been interesting to see what it was before this last application.

It was still around 5.7 last fall with 900 lbs/ac of Ca��There�s more to pH though than just the simple lime buggy discussions that we often have on forums. It actually fluctuates naturally throughout the different seasons and is influenced by a number of factors. I�ll admit I was disappointed when the pH didn�t jump right up to 6.8 after that first application, but a silver lining in it all�.. and what I�m very pleased to see happening for the long term�..is that my topsoil is actually holding onto the Ca very well over time.

Once I do get my Ca levels up to 1500 ish lbs/ac or whatever my balancing point is now�..then I won�t have to worry about bottoming out at 200-300 lbs/ac again every year or two like happened with heavy tillage. It should hold onto and continue to recycle most of that 1500 lbs over time. I�m not saying that will be the end of ever adding lime again but it will definitely be under much different circumstances than what I�ve dealt with in this rebuilding process. Hopefully, my OM% will continue to grow and with it so will my nutrient holding capacity. If that happens then I�ll add more lime because I can now hold say 2,000 lbs/ac of Ca. That�s a far different growing environment for a plant than the sand pit I started with that only had 300 lbs/ac of available Ca for plant growth. That�s a more important long term objective to focus on instead of getting too hung up on whether my pH the next round ends up being 5.9 or 6.5��if my Ca concentration goes up another 600-700+ lbs/ac then we are headed in the right direction.

What would it mean to you if the ph didn't go down a couple years after an application?

I guess I would take that to mean that you are maintaining a good supply of negatively charged ions in your soil for the positively charged Ca to stay bonded to. Those negative charges are either coming from clay particles and/or organic matter. In my situation, I have nearly zero clay in my soil�..so all I have to rely on to hold onto that lime is the OM I build in the soil. If I burn it up, then so goes my holding capacity for my lime. That�s how I got to where I was at a few years ago with Ca levels down in the 250-300 lb/ac range. This is a common scenario in our part of the world because so many of us are dealing with sandy soils.

The darker topsoil is full of decomposed organic matter and is why it has the blacker color. That layer of soil has an exponentially higher holding capacity for both nutrients and water than does the orangish colored layer below it. That is what is holding onto and recycling my Ca (lime) and why Ca levels (K too) are not drastically falling in my sandy field. Take the OM out of the equation in this situation though and you significantly impact your holding capacity. This is why some folks add lime and then end up back where they started after a couple years. There is nothing to hold it so it quickly leaches away. Again, we're talking about sandy fields. Folks with higher clay levels won't see impacts of the same severity since clay can't be burnt up through tillage.

I wonder why the lime doesn't hold and the other stuff does. Do you consider your fertilization needs to be high or as high as they were?

No..... Fert needs are pretty low. I�m guessing a lot of what is happening is due to my really low CEC soils. I kind of wonder if the soil test folks aren�t recommending too much lime to be applied at one time on this kind of soil. Ideally on this sand, I bet you would probably be better to apply something like 500-1000 lbs every 6 months for several rotations rather than dumping one big load out in one dose. I don�t know though. I�m not sure what it happening to the rest of that lime. I have good infiltration on this field and don�t have much runoff so the lime doesn�t have much choice but to leach down. If it�s leaching into that subsoil and making it a more hospitable growing environment, then that wouldn�t be a bad thing. Like I was saying in the other post�it may be 3,000 lbs of lime but the cubic feet of dirt we are talking about conditioning is pretty massive if the lime is leaching into the subsoil.

When I first made this a foodplot and broke it up for the first time, I had a balanced pH of 6.8 with 1200 lbs/ac of Ca. It used to be a horse pasture so I assume it got horse manure applied on the regular. It had been fallow for several years when I bought the place. When I brought it back to 900 lbs with that first application of lime, I wasn�t far off from being back where I started. The difference now though is I figure I�ve probably built more holding capacity than I had originally had with all the OM I�ve added�.. so it will likely take me having closer to 1500 lbs of Ca to balance. Maybe this application will get us there.

Good luck!

In another thread in the Serious Forum I was talking about managing your field in a manner to produce the best late winter cereal grains��.Especially for those folks in sandy soils�..being able to grow that really productive field of late winter cereal grains starts with soil health. If you�re like the vast majority of folks and only have a small plot here and a small plot there�.just accept the limitations that scale is having on you and quit worrying about trying to accomplish non-productive goals. Change your focus from trying to grow a � acre of beans this summer� to trying to produce the most productive soil you can....that in turn will grow better winter plots.

Roots are a major player in soil building. It�s baffling a lot of folks why I�m choosing to grow what most would call �weeds� this summer�.even fertilizing them. I had one guy on the QDMA forum that even accused me of abandoning what I started because I wasn�t planting something like buckwheat or cowpeas this summer. However, back to the roots playing a major role in soil building�..I�ve got a high deer density and only a couple acres to plant. It doesn�t do me any good to plant a bunch of stuff that will get wiped out and never thrive this summer. If the plants do not thrive and eventually mature then they won�t grow the massive root structures I�m looking for. It�s through roots that I will be able to take that black dirt you see deeper and deeper into the soil profile��It�s also through roots that I will continue to build �soil structure�. I can grow the hell out of a ragweed this summer and gets its roots to penetrate down into that inhospitable subsoil�.improving my overall soil health from several perspectives. I can�t even get a bean or stalk of buckwheat to make it much longer than a few weeks because the deer wipe it out. Most folks could grow exceptional late winter cereal grains even in the worst soils if they would be open to adjusting their management practices.

I forgot all about having a piece of a roll of this industrial landscaping fabric. This stuff is porous and allows water to flow through it. I was putting another round of maters in the ground and used the fabric to make one more adjustment to my management practices to get the soil temps warmer but still moist at the same time. I think this will work. The straw will hold in moisture and feed my worms and other microbial life while the fabric warms things up a bit. There�s some huge earthworms in these beds. The soil is mostly made from decayed leaf mulch. Still have room to start about 3 more mater plants in a couple weeks. I�m trying to stagger my planting times a little bit.

Now we�re cookin with peanut oil���..

Just returned from our camp and applied 1 ton of pelletized lime to our fields.

I was surprised to see how the rye and Crimson clover had burned out already. The white clover planted last fall is all that is left.

Planning on soil testing again in September and applying recommendations from there.

Any suggestions on how to increase our OM?

CNC you mentioned leaf matter with the landscape fabric picture. My two currently 1/4 acre openings get a large amount of leaf litter. How does one deal with leaves?

It�s just a matter of growing lots of plant matter (biomass) and recycling back to the soil both through roots and through above ground plant growth�..and then managing that organic matter in a manner to where it doesn�t rapidly burn up before you can add more.....minimizing tillage. When a sandy field has been heavily tilled for years and is completely void of OM, then plant growth will struggle and it�ll be hard to grow enough biomass in the spring and summer to turn the ship around. These beginning stages may require you to pamper the field a little differently than you have in the past to get things on the right track. You may need to fertilize in the spring and summer to promote more plant growth at first. You may need to hit your cereal grains with a dusting of nitrogen in late winter or early spring so that it will produce enough biomass to make a difference. Once things get turned around then you can adjust your management accordingly.

How much nitrogen do you add to the field in the fall? Does the leaf litter smother your field before it has a chance to get going?

Just acquired permission this past December but saw a good amount of leaves and it's in the middle of hardwoods. Just walked it today for first time since end of jan. Very thin stands of rye grass in amongst the rocky soil. Too rocky for sod bustin'. Gonna dig soil tests next weekend and look to amend into the early fall then mow and throw. Have transplanted some Honeysuckle cuttings to peat pots and plan to try and create screens with them around the edges and along trails in a month. very interested in using native type perennials as much as possible.

Leaves certainly won�t be a bad thing for the soil but you may have issues with them smothering out your small seedlings when they start heavily falling on a small plot like that. I think your best way to combat that, other than just eliminating the leaves with a blower, would be to get the cereal grains up and growing as fast as possible before the leaves fall. It may be a good idea to plant a little earlier than you normally would to allow more time to get some growth on the cereal grains. I don�t plant until the end of Sept or first of October but you might consider going ahead and planting early in September if weather permits. It�s just an idea. Also, make sure not to skimp on the nitrogen. Push the grain growth as much as you can before leaf fall occurs. At some point those leaves are likely going to tie up some N as they begin to decompose.

Take some pics as you go along. I�d love to see how some of these plots progress as y�all use these techniques.

Here's a good read to add to the thread. Even if you don't read the article...be sure to take the time to check out the chart showing the nutrient content of some common "weeds".

Old Field Management

Wow, i was really surprised to see that Japanese honeysuckle was on the low prefernce list. The deer love it on my 2 properties.

I've never seen them hammering it anywhere I've hunted. It's funny how different deer are compared to others. Deer have hammered turnips everywhere I've ever hunted, but have heard some say they don't eat them at their place.

That's why I don't put too much stock into lists. I know what deer eat on my places and that's all that matters to me.

I agree N2T. I take what I read about �preference� with a grain of salt on any list I see published. Honeysuckle is readily browsed here too blumsden. IMO, the best way to determine preference is with your own eyes. It just takes slowing down and really getting down on your hands and knees sometimes to inspect different plant species as you walk around your property. You don�t even have to know the name of them. Some of the things they put on preference lists like beautyberry, I�ve rarely ever seen one nipped around here. However, there are many plants that aren�t included on these lists that I see deer eat the hell out of. There�s some little reddish colored, low growing, five leafed briar on my property that you would be hard pressed to find one that hasn�t been browsed. I see them also eating things that would normally be scoffed at from an agricultural standpoint like thistle, marestail, blackberry, and cutleaf primrose. One thing that�s also not mentioned is that on some of these plants there is a certain time frame within its life cycle where they are the most desirable. Some plants may be highly preferred when young but then not touched as they mature.

Maybe honeysuckle isn't browsed where there is better browse available. I agree, i never see any browsing on beautyberry.

This is a good example. French mulberry is browsed on all the places that I hunt.

New growth is beginning to bounce back and emerge despite not getting anything from the other day�s rain event. It didn't even settle the dust here. Hopefully we�ll get something more significant over the next couple days. Much of what is emerging in the field right now is ragweed and pokeweed. I�m happy to see the field transitioning out of the heavily grass dominated system to more balanced mix of grasses, legumes, and broadleafs.

I�ve finally got my maters growing like I want them too. With just about anything you're growing whether it be tomato plants or food plots�.this dark green color with lime green growing tips is what you are wanting to see. That�s when you�ve hit the sweet spot.



Dark green with lime green growing tips���



It�s mostly playing here but instead of pinching all of the suckers off of these plants, I�m going to try to train them to fill up this scaffolding system. Gonna have to prune a couple branches. Again the same dark green and lime color. That�s what you want to see���.



�..whether its tomato plants or food plots����



�..people talk a lot about �What the deer prefer�. The deer prefer healthy, young, vibrantly growing plants and not ones that are struggling to live. That matters first and foremost before worrying about magic beans or the latest special seed blend that brings deer from afar.

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u491/waldrjd/IMG_20160514_142041611_HDR_zpscnjcpzp7.jpg

This what one of the fields looked like this weekend after we limed. We drug them to spread the lime and hopefully some clover seed around and then some millet was spread to try and grow some thing for this summer. The little bit of green is some of the crimson clover that hasn't died and in the shady area there is quiet a bit of white clover.

I got all my plots in, but one. Its rained on me the last 2 evenings while i was bushhogging. Tuesday, i got drenched all the way to the undergarments. I'll take that, as long as we get moisture. I've got a couple of cowpea/soybean throw and mow plots and one with millet and sunflowers for dove. I've gotten a pretty good stand of ryegrass in one plot that i'm going to hit with clethodim. Other than that, i'm not spraying the other fields. Letting nature work for me.

Keep the pics coming. Hopefully we've got another good round of rain coming tomorrow. It should help jump start y'alls fields.

Happy with results using new sprayer for the 1st time. I missed one strip down the right side of plot, but I'll get it this weekend. This plot is 2 acres in size and I'm trying to eliminate some type of grass that grows in clumps and took over 25% of plot. Photo taken 14 days after spraying.

Great even kill on that. What kind of new sprayer did you get?

We got a good bit of rain last week with a couple heavy downpours. It would be awesome if precipitation would fall once a week in the form of a nice slow soaker instead. Unfortunately though, our weather around here tends to come in an all or nothing form. Long periods of dry weather and heavy downpours are far more the norm than rainfall that is consistently �just right� for soil and growing conditions. One of the principles of a no-till method is using an organic matter layer on the soil�s surface to buffer our soil from these extreme weather swings. Not only that but we are also protecting our soil from erosion of topsoil which results in heavy nutrient loss.


Here is a good book to add to the reading list���.It takes a page or two to get started but there is a lot of valuable information in there that relates to what you see me doing in this thread and what many of you are dealing with who are trying to get started. It was written in 1950 so much has changed since then but these principles of weeds and nature are still the same as they�ve been since the beginning of time. Weeds are soil builders.


Weeds: Guardians of the Soil

�It is possible that no soil-improving weeds in the United States excel the ragweeds, particularly the common annual rag, because the latter will establish itself in practically all types of soil. The giant ragweed, often called the horseweed, is also valuable but is more selective in its habitats. And not far behind the ragweeds are the sunflower, the milkweed, two or three thistles, the annual wild morning glory, stinging nettles, annual smartweeds, wild lettuce, and several wild legumes, including sweet clover, the latter the aristocrat of all weeds. All of these wild plants have root systems that forage deeply into the soil and can be employed as mother weeds, or as green manures in a rotation. All of them are soil builders.�

I've often wondered why you couldn't get ragweed seed. Probably wouldn't grow if you planted it on purpose.

Has anyone on here tried planting SH with the T&M method? Forgive me if you guys have already discussed this, I didn't go back and read all the pages. It's been several weeks since I've been on here...

You actually can buy ragweed seed. It's around $400 for a 50 lb bag. It's supposed to be the best chit out there for quail managers.

I haven't. I don't specifically recall anyone else doing it either.

Squash is coming along well. Should be pickin some pretty soon.

I've planted it using this method with pretty good results. As usual, moisture is key. Its awfully dry at my place right now.

I tried it on my first T&M plot last summer. It worked but the deer never let it get very tall.

That is good news. I will wait for some rain and try and put it out just ahead of some rain. I've got plenty of vegetation on half of my plots to cover the seed, on the others I may have to lightly disc to help cover so the birds and turkeys don't get it all before it sprouts...As far as the deer hitting it too early, I had to spray mine with fish emulsion last year to keep them off of it for a few weeks. It worked great and only costs $8, and I think I used a half of a bottle.

Westflgator, how are you spreading your sea 90 minerals, mine doesn't want to come out of my spreader very well. It feels damp and kinda packs, like lime.

I use the larger granular type Sea90 (not the fine ground) when I spread. I have two spreaders, one is a pull behind that is exactly the same as the one for my tractor (pto driven) except it is a wheel drive spreader, and both of them work fine. The key is not to let it get wet, and you may have to open the spreader a little wider than you would with traditional fertilizer. I just put some out on my yard last week without any issues with my pull behind.

I tried the throw and disk method today. I was gonna seed then bushhogg but my Hogg rows the grass to one side. So I broadcasted seed and fertilizer in a field of standing wheat and oats that has died off and set my disc straight and lightly ran it over hoping the grass and little bit of dirt will cover the seed. Hope it works.

Peas and buckwheat should work great. Just need to pray for rain now. Forecast looks pretty ugly.

Wouldn't matter if it was throw and mow or plowed ground it'd be dead up here. We're bad off. On a side note I planted no till corn on April 26 into sunn hemp and wheat cover crop stubble from last year and as of now it's hanging on. Better than no cover ground is.

That�s one of the reasons I�m going the route I am this summer... so that drought and timely rains really aren't a factor as much. If I have what you want to call a �cash crop� in my rotation, then it would definitely be my winter plot. Due to be limited by acreage, nothing I do during the summer really has much impact on what I see during hunting season. Deer switch feeding patterns in early fall and everything changes from that point. I�ve come to the conclusion that in my situation, I�m much better off to spend my summer months protecting and improving my soil so that I can grow a better winter cash crop.

A fair amount of volunteer Egyptian wheat is coming in. Some of it is doing fine and some of it is struggling like the one below. It�s a plant known to be finicky. This is one of the reasons I say that you are better off to turn things around with weeds instead of worrying about trying to plant crops. Weeds are soldiers. They will thrive in hostile conditions where as other more finicky plants may struggle. Weeds still get the job done in these situations. They are my summer cover crop.





Remember that deer are just goats. Despite only growing healthy weeds�.I still have deer readily browsing in the fields at night.





This is some kind of wild brassica�.a turnip like plant....healthy and being browsed.





This some kind of briar. Healthy and being browsed. I�d take a field full of them. Everyone has been browsed and the bushy ones look like they�ve had hedge trimmers taken to them.

This plant is called purpletop vervain. It is one of the most heavily browsed species on my property. All of what I have has come back from the natural seedbank..... but if you don�t have this plant present in your summer fields then I think it would be well worth getting it started in the mix. It should reseed itself from there. I�m going to see if I can collect some seed from this powerline to put out in my big field. It�s pretty scant in the big field.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=purpletop+vervain+seed&tbm=shop

I have some of that growing wild on my Lee Co lease. I noticed yesterday that most of it had the top nipped out of it.

The deer on my properties hammer vervain. I wish i had a field full of that and poke salad.

Here�s another one. If you mentioned the word �thistle��most food plotters would automatically think of a negative image. The deer love it though and I�d put it right up there in my top ten list of summer plants that deer hammer.

Not even sure what this one is called. It's coming into the big field in places though and being readily browsed on. See the stems nipped off in the center of the plant.

Now, thats one thing i don't see browsed. I wished i did.

I wonder if it's the same variety of thistle? You couldn't find one around here that hasn't been heavily browsed on.

Not sure, these will get purple flowers on them.

Yep, it's a different variety of thistle. Mine have yellow flowers and I believe are called "prickly sow thistle". The ones you are talking about have purple flowers and called "bull thistle". Someone correct me if that's wrong.

Deer are hammering the young blackberry as well. I find that they don�t mess with it too much when it first emerges but rather right as it starts getting stemmy like in the pic below. This patch is the front edge of my big field. It gets hit with the lime and fert too as I�m putting it out.

I think the secret in maximizing natural browse is lime and fertilizer. While cleaning out around trees this spring I noticed that pretty much any "weed" in the drip line where I fertilize was browsed while 3 feet away the same plant was untouched.

Very pleased with my field so far even though it�s a little stalled out right now due to no rain. Hopefully this weekend will change that. Here�s a pic from mowing until now���..



Some of the bare areas you see is where I've been spot spraying. There's three spots in the field where I still have a little sicklepod trying to come back. I've also hit a few of the more pure grassy areas to try and get a better mix of broadleafs coming in.




I�ve got a really nice mix of broadleafs and grass now in many places where as past summer fields have been mostly grass. The major component that I�m missing is clover (legume). I�d like to have 25-30% of the field occupied by some kind of clover as well�.likely durana. This recent round of lime should have us where we need to be to sow some again this fall.

Some more plant species being browsed in my summer plot���.

Young poke weed��.



I think maybe this is wild radish. I have a few different brassica looking plants in my field. Some of them are volunteer turnip and radish that I�ve planted in the past and some are native plants. This browsing might actually be a rabbit. The cuts look a little clean. Not 100% sure.



Pretty sure this is one of those volunteer daikon radishes. It�s being heavily browsed as well. A lot of diversity, a lot of browsing, a lot of soil conservation���..very little cost, very little time�..

Uno mas��.This is a semi-mature pokeweed plant about 5 ft tall on the very edge of the field that�s benefiting from some of the fert and lime that�s been put out. Look all the way down the stalk at how the leaves have been browsed. This is right where the deer walk into the field. A lot of heavy browsing in these areas. I thought this could be bug damage at first but I'm pretty sure it's deer.

I don't know about that. If it were on our place, it wouldn't be 5' tall.

The thing is�..not all the semi-mature (4-5ft tall) pokeweed is browsed�.only some. The ones that are heavily browsed are the ones that are near entry and exit routes to the field as well as near trails that run through my property. If it were insects, then it would be scattered around more random. That�s why I believe it�s deer. There's also no grubs or anything on any of them.

Could it be rabbits? Or maybe your deer don't really like it and they just grab a leaf when coming out into a field. I've seen them do that alot. Almost like they're just killing time or something.

That's it. I'm done planting anything. I'm just gonna let my place grow up in poke weeds pigweeds marestail henbit curly dock and sneeze weed. I'm convinced it's so much better than corn soybeans wheat and sunflowers.

Chickasaw plums are ripe���..

So what are you accomplishing that I'm not?

Nothing obviously.

Look, there are situations where corn and beans, etc make sense and situations where it doesn�t. If I were a really wealthy person with a lot of plantable acreage and disposable income�.sure. If I wanted to e-fence off a small plot to save for an early bow season hot spot�..sure. But if I�m in the group that most of us are in where you lease 1500 acres and have 12 acres worth of 1-2 acre�.1/2 acre�. � acre plots�..spread out across it, then no it really doesn�t make sense. Yet I see folks year after year trying to go to whatever lengths it takes to make it happen so they can have a pretty field that they believe is making a significant difference.

What I�m trying to propose to you is that this group of plotters would be far better off to take a fraction of those resources and that will power that they put forth to try and pull off these pretty fields��and instead put it toward creating healthy, functional soil that will in turn grow much better winter kill plots. Commercial food plotting has really skewed the average guys image of what he needs to do to successfully manage deer.

If you have the time, money, equipment and the acreage, to feed deer with summer plots, then i say go ahead, but if your trying to feed a deer herd with a couple acres, then i don't think its fesible. My density is not real high on my farm, so a couple acres does ok, but in high deer density area's i would be wasting my money. Starting next year, other than my dove field, i will just let my white clover and browse feed my deer until fall.

I agree that the tv culture and foot plot industry has generally grown to provide a disservice these days with marketing faux pas. but at the same time I'd say majority of our states hunters are on leased land where long term soil health and objectives are too far fetched. They need quicker results on an unknown time frame with limited time to get it accomplished.

Here is another possible option for us to consider for a summer legume to add into our perpetual "weed" mix. It's pretty damn expensive though to buy. It would be worth if I knew for sure it would keep reseeding after one planting. Really need to get some N fixing legumes into the mix with the other plants.

https://www.qdma.com/articles/know-your-deer-plants-partridge-pea

I don�t really see anything farfetched about what I�m doing. I�ve fertilized/limed the natural vegetation in the spring�..broadcasted and mowed over a cereal grain mix in the fall. The farfetched approach to me is all the chit I was doing before. That was far more cumbersome of an approach to not accomplish anything more than what I am now. Actually I feel as though I'm accomplishing far more now because I have what is becoming extremely fertile soil....all with less effort than before.

It would be different if I was proposing something that would cost folks a much more significant investment than what they are already having to make�.but for most folks it�s going to save them a significant amount�time especially. It just requires a different management approach and perspective on the situation.

Shaka-lacka bam!!......Not 100% sure yet but I do believe I�ve located a small patch of partridge pea. I don�t believe this is mimosa seedlings as there aren't any mature trees around here anywhere. Any other options it could be?



I�m going to rope it off to see if I can raise it up for seed. I ran out of flagging tape but I�m going to add a little more to it to beef it up. I may end up having to use wire but maybe not.

Looks to me like a patch. I have quite a bit of it and at my place they do not touch it until it reaches a certain height.Then they get on it hard until patches look like someone took a hedge trimmer to them. They will all be ate back to exactly the same height.

Cool!....They must be doing the same thing to what little I have around here because I don't ever recall seeing a full grown mature plant.

Mine get pretty tall, above knee high, before they get whacked.

I have no intention of getting in the middle of this schoolgirl squabble you and 257 have going, but my interpretation of his statement was that hunters on year to year leases may not reap the rewards of soil improvement. Having said this, I agree with 257 in this scenario. If you don't have several years of access guaranteed, traditional planting seems a better use of time. If you fully expect to renew your lease each year, throw and mow could yield good results, but the results will get better with time and there's no shortcut for that.

That looks like Chamberbitter. It's a small low growing weed with yellow flowers. I see it a good bit in landscaped beds. I am not sure if it is called partridge pea? Does it have a milky sap like a spurge?

I have no intention to argue with you�.but I�m going to post a response anyways.

Explain how spraying, disking, culipacking, etc..etc�is a better use of someone�s time. If you and I are both looking at the same field of grass and weeds come this fall�.why are you better off to spend 3X the amount of tractor time to do it the traditional way regardless of next season?.....A pretty seed bed?


We use to plant at the hunting club in the traditional manner. The first year we spent all weekend long planting and still didn�t get everything done we wanted to. This is in addition to going down two weeks in advance and spending a whole day hauling water and spraying. For the last few years we have switched methods and we get it all done in one Saturday from start to finish. The plots still look great and still serve their purpose. Everything is not just completely about long term soil improvements even though that�s the foundation for the method.

Hmmmm....Not sure. I'll have to take a look later today. I googled it and you may be right. It sure does look like that stuff.

Soil health was not why i started using this method. It was just quicker and easier and i didn't have to haul a heavy ass tractor to the club. I haul a 4 wheeler instead and just use a roll of chainlink fence to drag the dead thatch down over the seeds. I do appreciate the benefit of having healthy soil and not just dirt. I completly understand clubs not caring about soil health, but thats just icing on the cake, when using this method. A drill would be the ideal way to plant, but they ain't no way i'm spending that kind of money to plant a few acres of plots for deer.

CNC that is gripe weed or little mamosa as some call it. That crap will take over quickly. Or chamberbitas said above.

Well damn.....I thought I had me something there for a minute. I guess I'll have to order a little bit of partridge pea seed and see if I can get it started. Thanks man.

Therein lies the issue. Everyone is looking at a different piece of ground. 257 suggested that throw and mow may not be feasible for everyone. I was simply agreeing with him on the grounds that each property is different. If someone just got a new timber company lease and they're not 100% sure they'll renew it next year, why would they concern themselves with long term soil improvements? Secondly, most timber company food plots are nothing more than converted loading docks, usually in a dry spot like a ridge top. They may not have enough biomass in year 1 to effectively practice throw and mow. Remember, these leases usually renew in the summer time. A guy may not have time to grow biomass before it's time to plant fall food plots.

We have a long term lease so we would benefit from the improvements in the soil over time. However, I did T&M on 3 of our 15 fields in the Fall as a proof of concept in order to save time. It was a success and we may expand the number of fields this coming season. I decided not to plant any T&M Summer crops this year. I plan on keeping the fields cut so they don't get to overgrown. My hopes are that we can take advantage of man hours saved on planting and use them to maintain roads, trails and shooting houses.

Fair enough. I suppose folks will just have to assess each situation and decide for themselves what is the best option.

Here�s a couple more plant species in the field to add to the list of things being browsed. I believe this first one is called horsenettle.



I�m not sure the name of this plant�..someone help me out. It�s actually growing in one of my fruit orchards which is just a part of the same field. Forgive the expression but growing up I heard them called n***** knockers. They grow a little hard ball on the end of the stems about half the size of a golfball. The ends of every stem on this plant except for one have been browsed.

I would call that Golden Rod, and I think the hard balls are a Gall fly parasite. Sometimes you can find a grub in them.

It dang sure is.....I didn't recognize it without it being bloomed out yellow. I never realized the deer would browse that stuff. Thanks!

You guys ever have deer eating maypops? I don't know if that is the technical term, but 2 years ago we had deer seeking them out.

I ask that, because it was in a field I tried T &M on. I almost didn't want to bush hog it.

This might be your culprit. I thought the same thing too when I first saw it being devoured last year but it was these guys. The deer don�t mess with it too much I don�t think but I�ll watch again and see if I see any action on it.

I walked around and checked out a small patch of maypop that I still have growing and didn't see any browsing activity on it. If they don't browse it around here then it's probably not something they'll mess with too much. I'm going to do some more spot spraying tomorrow to nuke that little patch.....it spreads like crazy if you let it. Unless you are in bad need of the biomass production then I'd probably start spot spraying it to get rid of it.

Maybe that is what was eating them. I did read after I posted that they are vital for butterflies surviving.

Going to try method on browntop this weekend. 3 acre field. 3 foot weeds glysophate earlier this week. Should be interesting. Will report

Yeah, they're a beautiful wildflower. I wouldn't care to have them in my field if they weren't so dang aggressive.

Good deal!.....Look forward to hearing how it turns out.

�Dynamic Accumulators�

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_accumulator

Be sure to notice the nettles and dandelion.

http://oregonbd.org/accumulators/

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During [img:center]http://[/img]
During [img:center]http://[/img]
I'll post after pics tomorrow. It started raining when I was finishing up. Put I/c peas and milo down before weed eating for 4 hrs. Like they say where there's a will there's a way today was the stihl way. Going to spray tomorrow to kill the new green that was under the rye, wheat and oats. I'm a whooped puppy.

Damn, it was hot today too. That makes me want a beer just lookin at the pics. Nice job. Hopefully we'll get some follow up showers in the next few days to keep everything moist for awhile. Look forward to the updates.

Here�s another plant to add to the list of species in the field being browsed. This one has the potential for being rabbits or deer...not sure. Something is browsing the hell out of it though. I haven�t kept count but this should put us close to a dozen or more different plants so far that have been identified in the field as being moderately to heavily browsed upon.

Florida pusley���..I�m pretty sure on this ID but if someone thinks differently please speak up.



This is a repeat but I�d like to get an ID on it if someone knows what its called. Its getting absolutely hammered but easily holding its on and putting out new growth.

As per my friend, those are beauty berry bushes. He says that as long as they are kept low they will eat them heavily. If they grow up, they will have berries on them.

Good guess but I�m pretty sure it�s not beautyberry. Below is a pic of beautyberry�.which I will add is rarely ever browsed. The plant in question has a really woody stem like a twig on a tree. I suspect it might eventually grow into a small shrub-like plant.

Beautyberry��.

I've seen deer eat French Mulberry every place I've ever been.

Looks too high to be teaweed. I have always wanted to try and cultivate teaweed.

One more pic of the plant in question. You can see in this pic what I mean about it having twiggy stems and being shrub like.

BTM is one of the easiest plants to grow, using this method. I've grown it several times.

Here�s a plant that�s coming into the field that the deer are not eating on but I�m still glad to see it. It�s one of our NWSG�s, though I can�t tell you for sure which one. I'll have to research it a little more. I�ve actually got a good bit coming into the other parts of my understory now. It�ll be head high or better �sedge� by the end of summer. I�m just using that as a general term. This is a much more wildlife friendly grass component than crabgrass. The rabbits seem to like it for cover.

Here�s what that grass looks like at maturity. Big bluestem? Little bluestem? Other?

Hopefully I get rain today. We've been rained all around all week but received less than a 1/4 inch at the house.

Broomsedge, i think little bluestem. It only gets about waist high at my place. Only grows where ph is low, or so i've been told. A cattle rancher told me once he got his ph up, it disappeared.

Same thing here. I've had massive storms right on my doorstep but only got enough to just barely wet the ground. I hope I get something substantial today. It's dry.

That makes sense. The pH for most of my property is likely going to be really low. We'll see what happens with it in the food plot. There's not a whole lot right now.

Finally my turn to get some of that good rain. Been coming down pretty steady here for the last several hours. Nothing really heavy, just a good slow soaker. Field should really make a jump in the next week putting a canopy over most of the field.

Also figured out what our mystery shrub is called from a couple pics back�..It�s teaweed or prickly sida. I�m caging off some of it so it�ll produce more seed. This is an ideal addition to my summer plot.



http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fr168


�The crude protein of teaweed averaged 24.5%, with 76% total digestible nutrients. Even on areas not fertilized, teaweed had over 16% crude protein. On an additional site, teaweed plants also responded to applications of ammonium nitrate fertilizer. Each 100 pounds of ammonium nitrate fertilizer raised the crude protein content of teaweed about 3% (Figure 2). Total digestible nutrients remained about 75% at all levels of fertilization.�

One more link on the Teaweed or Sweet Tea.......

Link

I mentioned teaweed, but doubted myself.

It seems to have some positives and negatives. It�s apparently very aggressive and hard to get rid of. If I were someone who liked to plant �crops� in the summer time and planned on doing that in the future�.then this teaweed would likely be a nuisance to that effort and not something you want to get started. However, I�m not the least bit concerned about being able to plant beans, corn, etc��As you see, I�m going in a different direction.

The fact that teaweed is so persistent and tough is a plus for me. I�m in a high deer density area and need something that can withstand the browsing. Not to mention that the nutritional benefits of this stuff is off the charts compared to most everything else. It�s better than cowpeas�.better than alfalfa�.and even more nutritionally valuable than soybeans in some respects. It says that it has a very deep growing tap root and that the plant is very high in calcium and phosphorus. Beyond benefiting the deer�.this also tells me that this plant is a deep nutrient recycler. One possible downside that I can see is that with it being so woody�.it may be a pain in the arse to bushhog if it gets too big. The way it�s being browsed right now at my place, I don�t think getting too big will be much of an issue. We'll see.

I finally pulled the trigger and ordered a shaker of seeds from Southern Habitats. Now have to decide where to plant it. Might try creating some plugs with peat pods to transplant around early September.

I hit my patch with a little extra fert before the last rain shower came through and spent a little time weeding out some of the crabgrass from around it. I'm going to rope off the whole patch and use it for an initial seed source.

Interesting read on the teaweed. While I'm still of the traditional plow and plant method, I'm very impressed with how all of this is shaking out for you. How's your throw and mow garden doing? Haven't seen any pics of that lately but perhaps I overlooked them.

Thanks 3FF.....I'll take some pics of my maters later this afternoon and post them. They're doing great. Matter of fact, I have some cherry tomatoes that need picking now. I got attacked on my squash by the squash borers. I only had a few plants and the bastards nearly got them all. That was a brand new bed that really wasn't ready to plant yet. I don't know if that played a role in it or if it was just my turn to get hammered by them.

Here�s my cherry tomato. If you look close you can see how I trained the original plant to run along the star shaped pattern of the 1st scaffolds and then grow upshoot braches from there.



My regular maters I�ve let grow natural and not pinched any suckers. The result is that I�m growing mater bushes instead of traditional looking plants. They are short and thick right now� just about to start picking some soon. Several varieties from Cherokee Purple, to lemon yellow, to an orange variety I don�t recall the name, to traditional better boys. I removed the black landscape fabric a few days ago. The heat lately has been so intense that I think it was too much for them. I�m not really irrigating them though I need to rig up something as dry as we�ve been. I�ve watered them with the hose and thumb a couple times just to keep them from suffering.





Some pickles�..or soon to be pickles. Behind that is some feed corn from Academy I broadcast for chits and giggles. I got it WAYYYY too thick. I wasn�t using the space and figured I�d grow a few ears of some feed corn just for the hell of it. I�ll probably just use it for organic matter and plant my squash back in this bed next year�..and as I post this the bottom just fell out. Rain baby rain!!!!!

Still a lot more grass in the mix than I�d like but pleased by plant color/health none the less. It's a battle right now between the grass and broadleafs over who is going to dominate the canopy. Even after going through a decent dry spell, the field is still in good shape. There�s actually 15-20 different plant species growing in the field but everything pretty much just blends together. I should produce plenty of healthy biomass by the end of summer.

I�ve started Shelby on some short liver drags. She�s 10 weeks old so I�m not doing anything complicated. Just a simple 50 yard drag. This is her 3rd one I�ve done. All I�m wanting to do right now is get her excited about it and flip switches in her brain. She�s seems to be very eager to track. Check her out.

Awesome video CNC! Her treat is the liver at the end so that works well. You can tell she was "seeing" with her nose, amazing.

Thanks!....I hope she's gonna make a good tracking dog. She dang sure likes to use her nose and get after it for such a young pup. I like her drive.

Blum�..I don�t think reaching the Fuyu�s is going to be as big of a problem as we thought. They�re barely half grown and already pulling the limbs to the ground. This is after shedding off a lot of fruit too. I think I�m going to go ahead and pull the trigger this fall and add onto this orchard with a dozen of them. I�ve got another young Giro right next to this one that you can�t see that�s putting on some fruit this year. So far I don�t see much difference in them.

My screening is coming along. I�ve got a little trail made in behind this I use at dark to exit my stands. I also like having the buffer around the perimeter of the field creating a softer edge. I�ve got it established around about 50-60% of the field now. You can see extending into the very back of the field if you look close. Still working on beating back the privet on the other side but about got it whooped finally.

Are there shade tolerant fruit trees that don't require regular pruning? I am horrible at pruning. Once I get to cutting on a tree it's more likely to end up as a 3" stump than something pruned half correctly. Put 4 Sida / teaweed seeds in each of 6 - 4" pots with potting soil and 1 each in 36 peat pods in a grow tray with a kinda terrarium lid, yesterday. Can't wait to see some emerging plantage over the next week or so.

also dropped about 25 seeds along the edge of the woods in the leaf litter then walked on them repeatedly to try for some seed to soil contact. Just to see if a seriously minimalist approach could have any success.

Best options for fruit trees are pears, crabapples, and persimmons.

It�s only been a week or so now�..but you can already start to see a difference in the teaweed that I�ve caged versus the other. See how the plant on the right is still being hammered and the caged one is putting on new growth.

We planted roughly 3 acres of browntop millet two weeks ago.
We sprayed roundup on the field on Wednesday, then spread the seed and bushhogged weeds on Sunday. Kind of quit after roundup but wanted to do in advance of predicted rains. We got 7/8" of rain 4 days later and another 3/4" or so the next day. I checked for the first time exactly one week after planting and saw substantial germination - enough that I think I will get a solid stand. Should know this coming weekend and will post pics.

Day 10 just need another drink. [img:center]http://[/img] [img:center]http://[/img] [img:center]http://[/img]
I spread 1,000 pounds of peletized lime sat and as soon as we get some rain coming gonna throw out 300 pounds of 13-13-13.

That's awesome fellas....

loprofile.......For a fall/winter plot, cereal rye will sprout just as easy as that millet just did. Makes planting fall plots a breeze.

turkey neck.....Did you get much rain? It looked like it was barely hitting you up there when it all came through.

I got probably 3/4-1 wed some more that night then that big storm Friday night. The areas that had better thatch had better germination but I'm happy so far. My milo hasn't shown itself yet but the I/c and crowder peas have popped up well.

Good deal. You got a good bit then. The cowpeas are fast to jump out the ground. You should see the milo start to come in after a few more days.

Wow, that fuyo really took off. Mine ar still dwarfed. To me they have barely grown in the 2 years since i planted them. They had fruit the first year and basically nothing since.

Mine hasn�t produced much fruit for the last couple years but it�s put on good growth. Most of the trees seem to like this sandy loam. My mast producing trees are really on the verge on starting to drop a significant amount of food in the next couple years. The sawtooths are already there. There�s no way to get it all in one pic but there�s about 150 ish trees total in this one area. It goes over the hill in the back and out of the screen to the right. That fuyu is just behind that powerline. I don�t have everything The Wildlife Group sells but a good bit of it is in there. The understory is full of that native grass I was showing. I�m marking good producers and bad producers. Over time some of the weaker trees will get thinned out. That water oak is in the process of checking out�..intentionally.

Do your Jap Persimmons drop? I have several which put on tons of fruit now but it all stays on the tree.

No, but the fruit is so heavy that it's pulling the limbs to the ground and putting a large percentage of the fruit within the deer�s reach. These things are like deer crack too�..they�re weirdly sweet. Some folks like to eat them but I don�t care for �em too much�.odd taste. The deer will beat the ground to the bare dirt around the perimeter of the tree standing on their hind legs trying to reach to top ones. These aren't anywhere close to full grown yet. They'll get as big as the palm of your hand.

Gonna be the first year of producing any significant amount of apples. It�s still nothing like the orchard should eventually produce but happy to see it coming online. I got hit by another round of either fire blight or apple cedar rust. It�s not having as big of an impact on the bigger trees now. It�s hell on the young ones. I�ve lost several trees and had growth significantly impacted on a good percentage of the orchard due to it. Still around 35 trees left. They�ve not been the easiest thing to establish but seeing apples hanging in trees now is making it seem a lot better.

I eat the fuyu like an apple. Thier non-astrigent, so they never tast bitter like native persimmons. Taste good. You'll have to pull them off the tree.

Unfortunately my trees are 25-30 feet tall so most of the fruit is not getting to the deer. When I live up there full time I will just knock a few off every afternoon cause they sure do love them.

Hmmmm.....I may need to start doing something to mine to see if I can keep it small statured. It's around 5 years old now I believe. I may try topping it.

Out of the 60 seeds planted there are 12 seedlings up so far. 4 of them popped up over night. Hoping for more germination to come.

I'm not sure what kind of effect it will have on your success but you're completely out of sync with the natural growth pattern of the plant. Mine are starting to bloom out right now. If things don't go well then that might be one culprit to consider. Just throwing it out there.

Well been raining for bout the last hr or so and we have probably gotten a half inch or better. Them peas and milo are sure gonna love this. Just wish I had gotten fert down before this rain but wasn't really expecting it.

I picked up a decent little shower this evening. It wasn't anything real significant but it was enough to give things a little relief. Everything looked perked up this evening right before dark. Rain chances are pretty good over the next few days.

Up to 15 at end of today. Your point is valid. The information available mentions night temps in the 60's and warmer humid days. So June seemed like a good time to start in central AL. Also, the Southern Habitats people talk about slow growth during the first month or so. It looks like things are slowly progressing, variations in timing may be due to deeper or shallower seeding depths. With the coating on the seed there may need to be merely seed to ground contact with some mulching.

I still have to nurse them long enough and transplant the Jiffy Potted ones into larger containers in order to get them planted. That may end up being toward the end August hopefully just before several days rain. As if that is a regular occurrence in Aug.

Like the purpose of your plants this first set is primarily to establish a source of seeds. If that proves fruitful I'll probably Gly our small plot and rake in the remainder of the purchased seeds then mow down the dead weeds for mulch.

Good deal!.......Looking forward to following the progress. There�s actually someone on the QDMA forum right now asking if anyone has ever ordered the seed and tried to get any started.

Here�s the blooms that are beginning to pop on the teaweed. The seed must be tee-tiny because the flowers aren�t much bigger than my pinkie nail. It�s a pale yellow flower. The light is making it look a little brighter and whiter here than it actually is�..thought this might help anyone with plant ID.

Did some throw and mow in a few of my plots last fall, here is how my white clover is holding up with the cereal grains giving it shade and keeping the weeds suppressed back. I have 4 clover fields that all look like this. Pretty pleased with the amount of moisture the fields are retaining. Until yesterday it had been 12 days since we had any rain and they are still beating the heat. I haven't sprayed or mowed any of these fields so they aren't the prettiest but they are doing what they are supposed to.

That's awesome!.....

thought you might like to see that.

Heck yeah�.thanks for posting. I really enjoy seeing the success pictures. I�d like to experiment with more types of clover. There�s several that no one ever talks about that I hear people having success with�..like balansa for one.

I've had the best success with crimson and Durana, they are hard to get away from once you know they do well. I just had 10 new fields put in so I will be getting the crimson and Durana mixture going in the ones I don't have chufas in.

I did a filled of Berseem and Mihi this past fall. It did well in the fall because both are annuals and grow quickly. I actually had some berseem winter over, but the Mihi was decimated by the deer in March.

I've never heard of Mihi, I just read alittle on it and it says that it's supposed to be more palatable than Rape, rye, and alfalfa. think I may pick one field and mix it along with the white clover.

Never heard of Mihi either...interesting. Medium red was one of the other one's I was thinking of. It's supposed to have a long grazing life in the spring/summer.

Teaweed chronicles - 21 of 60ish seeds have germinated so far still having 1 or 2 a day popup. gonna wait a couple weeks and move the jiffy potted ones into red solo cups. Then into the edge of a wood line once they get 3 sets of leaves on them. With one getting caged. Jiffy potted ones have come up faster than the ones in 4" containers of potting soil.

Mihi is a type of Persian clover. Not trying to promote a seed distributor, but Petcher seeds carries it. I do recommend putting an exclosure around a section of it. I planted some 3 years ago and said I had a seed failure, until I pulled my pictures. They let it get about half an inch tall then killed the entire section of it. It was a small plot and maybe just was under sized for the pressure, but I would have never bought the seed again had I not seen the amount of deer (and hogs) in the pictures. All I planted was Abruzzi Rye and Mihi. Only Rye made it to December.

Anybody have any photos of their plots with Summer Plantings following the Throw and Mow Practices ?

I'll dig up some old photos. I�ve done some experiments in the past and gotten good germination on things like buckwheat, cowpeas, sunflowers, and milo�..others have had good success with millet as well. My issue though is that I have a high deer population and it all just gets wiped out as soon as it gets going. I�m switching gears and trying to find a more sustainable solution. Right now its looking like teaweed will be a main component combined with some clovers and a few other choice native plants. I�m really considering trying to establish some partridge pea next year. I still haven't tired Joint vetch or Alyce clover either. I hear folks have good success with those in heavy grazing situaitons.

This started off well but they eventually demolished everything but the milo. It ended up being milo and weeds in the end.

Edit: I think some of that is Egyptian Wheat as well.

Pics man!...Pics!....This would be an awesome experiment to document.

Good idea Turkeymaster

[img:center]http://[/img] [img:center]http://[/img]
There's a lot more peas in the pic than it looks but I haven't put fert down yet so they haven't really jumped.

Just remember that soil and nutrient conditions are key to having success. Hopefully we'll get some more rain in the forecast soon turkey_neck...It's getting dry here again.

Flat Iron......Here's a link to another discussion showing more examples. Many of the folks who have been experimenting with it for any length of time are actually from other states.


https://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74268

Yes it's dry again.

The grass is starting to die here. It�s gonna look bad in another week. A lot of the stuff in my field is beginning to wilt�.even crabgrass and ragweed. The teaweed is a soldier though. Its probably handling the drought as well as anything. Very pleased with it.

Thank You CNC for the links

Work in progress on my end " Weekend Warrior " always helpful to see what works for guys and what doesn't. I'm always taking notes !! Thanks again for your daily post.

Summer training continues..�.Been playing a lot of �chase the dog with the deer leg� here lately......�..3 months to go�.the countdown begins�.C�mon deer season!!!

Pass the salt shaker.............

Throw and mow tomato plants?

The damn deer are murdering my peas. Gonna have to throw out some milorganite.

Kind of.....just using some of the same general no-till principles as what I'm using in the bigger field.

Good luck!.....I've thrown in the towel with trying to grow that type stuff without an e-fence.

loprofile.....You still out there? How's your millet patch coming along?

I put 250# of feet out today and it's been raining for the past hr. Got a half inch yesterday and from the looks of it gonna get a inch or so time this rain quits. My peas should really jump in the next week or two.

Good timing�..I�m hoping that rain slides on over here. I added 100 lbs/ac of 34-0-0 to my field as well and could use another shower to soak it on into the ground. Things were starting to run a little N deficient on me. I�ve decided to go ahead and push the vegetation enough so that I can double crop the biomass this summer. I�ll probably mow toward the end of this month or maybe early August. What I�m also hoping to do is leave myself with a little lighter biomass load to mow come fall planting. More pics to come......

Hey CNC have you heard of holganix? Supposedly they have something you can spray and raise your cec by 5 points in a year using microbial growth. Guy was trying to talk me into using it on the landscape side and was telling me about it. 257 may have heard of them they are supposedly getting big into the crop industry but today was the first I've heard about them.

I haven�t heard of it. I�ll check it out though and see what its about.

I watched a video of one of their spokesman doing a presentation and it sounds like to me they are selling something to basically �inoculate� your soil with microbial activity. It�s a big missing link in many fields that have been tilled for years. The soil just becomes a sterile medium with little life after a while. How much it will help or whether you should use this product?.....I really don�t know enough about it to say. I will say that one of the reasons folks recommend using chicken litter is the fact that it is teeming with microbial activity and helps reintroduce that aspect to your soil. That seems to be similar to what the Holganix product is doing. Once you go no-till for several years, then your microbial community should be able to be taken care of through your management practices instead of through applying them from a bag. A lot of what were doing with feeding biomass to the soil is in turn feeding this microbial community and creating a hospitable environment for them to live in.

I�ve watched some more of the videos on this Holganix stuff out of curiosity. These guys have actually found a good niche to tap into for their business. I notice that it seems like they are marketing a lot to turfgrass managers�.like golf courses or ballfields, etc�.One of the big things that those managers are missing and can really do nothing about is diversity. They can only grow grass. That lack of diversity above ground also creates a lack of diversity below ground. We as food plot managers have the option of being able to grow diversity in our plots though. With plant diversity comes a home for microbial diversity��and one of the big reasons why we want our soil teeming with microbial diversity is because it is this microbial community that is responsible for mineralizing the soil nutrients and making them available to the plant.

I�d say that this product would likely help you in the beginning but for sure take that with a grain of salt. I feel like you could do pretty much the same thing though with chicken litter but I know that�s not available to everyone. This product may actually be a lot more diverse in what it contains. However, keep in mind though that if you throw an animal out into the middle of the desert it will eventually die. The Holganix is actually putting in temporary food sources in their product to give the microbial life something to run on for a while. Long term though, the bigger picture will depend on how you manage the soil. If you manage for a biological desert then the process will cease...the soil animals will die. In order to keep the cycle going you have to create a home for the microbial community. If not, you�ll just need another bag�and another bag�.and another bag.

There was another similar product someone posted up awhile back that was basically selling the benefits of organic matter in a bag. You see, organic matter in a nutshell adds negative ions to your soil that creates more sites for our positively charged nutrients to bond to. Basically what these folks had done is to refine a product down to being a bag full of those negative ions. You buy the product, spread it on your field, and it very likely does work and help. But you have to keep the bigger picture in mind and it�s the same thing I�m saying about this Holganix product. I can continue to keep my soil void of organic matter and buy the benefits of it from a bag�..or I can manage the soil differently and create organic matter on my own. It�s not to say that the products don�t work or won�t help�.it�s just saying to be mindful of why you�re using them.

Catheadbisuit.....If you can ever get this teaweed established I believe you�ll be good to go. As summer progresses, I�m starting to find more and more of it and everything points to it being very hardy and easily spread. Here it is establishing itself amongst crabgrass with no problem. I�m going to give serious consideration to spraying with a grass select herbicide next year and seeing if I can release more of these broadleafs.




Here it is in an area that I frequently mow. Nearly everything you see in the foreground growing with the grass is teaweed. It actually appears to thrive with the cutting. If it can stand up to me mowing it weekly then I believe it�ll handle just about any amount of browsing pressure you could throw at it.

We're still plodding along. Slow but steady growth on about 10 to 12 seedlings in pots. The Jiffy Pot things seem to germinate pretty good but they dry out too easily once you lift the lid off. Just looking to keep them alive to end of Aug and transplant.

There are a lot of wild plants that are high in nutrition that deer feed on all the time. Plain old Beggar Lice that you would find in the same area as the ironweed might be better than a ironweed, and quail and other wildlife feed on the seeds.

I�d be happy to have beggar lice in my field along with everything else. The thing that I find intriguing about this teaweed is that I haven�t seen many plants that the deer prefer this highly that will also stand up to intense browsing pressure it receives. An added bonus is that the nutritional value of the teaweed rivals some of the best summer foods like soybeans. It looks like you better want it for sure if you get it started�.. I can definitely see why it�s considered to be aggressive. I�m good with that though.

To be honest, I�m not too overly concerned what happens in my field during the summer as long as it's actively growing, producing biomass, and keeping my soil protected for fall plots. Come Oct 15 or Jan 20�.it matters very little what I did or didn�t grow in my plot back during the summer. Deer start shifting patterns and honing in on fall and winter food sources starting around the latter part of Sept and everything changes up. Those deer that have been scattered about all around me during the summer begin to filter in�..and as the winter progresses, they become more and more concentrated

CNC - Millet update. Planted 3 acres in south Montgomery - split in half two weeks apart. Lucky so far with rain. Last weekend some parts of field were thick with millet and others not so much. Fertilized Saturday and plenty of rain since. Will check this weekend and update.
Also did the same thing on five acres in Macon County. Have not been back over there but probably will this weekend.

Good deal!...I wouldn't be surprised if you see some areas of the field do better than others. With this being the first time doing a no-till planting, you'll likely have some areas of the field that will need "conditioning" before they really do well. Much of it revolves around holding moisture.

My hope for this teaweed is to establish it along edges inside the drip line of trees so it can be left to flourish until frost when it is said to go to some level of dormancy. Leaving the inner field available for other perennials like clover and chickory. The tick trefoil would be a good addition too.

The idea of starting it in pots to begin with is an attempt to create some hardy specimens for transplanting at same time as broadcasting the remainder of the seed in a raked bed in late august or early september. I think some of my problems with germination may be related to storing the seeds inside where it is air conditioned. but that is pure wild azz guessing at this point. I plan to move them to a warmer location for a couple of weeks before planting.

If you get it established around the edges then you�ll have all throughout the fields in a few year�s time I believe. It seems to like to grow in patches.

Update on my new dog�..Shelby is 13 weeks old now and growing like a weed. Doing pretty well with the stay, come, and sit commands. Also been working on coming to a whistle command. About time to reach into my pocket and order another tracking collar soon�..3 months to go.

Got a question for my fall plots. I own no equipment to speak of. My food plot has always been mowing 3-4 tines a summer to keep things knocked back (Husky 46-inch cut yard tractor) then overseeding wheat seed early to mid-September. It's green. That's about all I can really say about it.
Would it help the plot effort if I burned the weeds and grass back with herbicide couple weeks before planting? Also should I add rape or any other seed to my wheat to make the plot more attractive to deer?

AC.....The most important thing for you from the standpoint of making it attractive to deer is keeping the field green, healthy, and producing�..(nutrients and good management practices). I got to see a lot of plots last year during Jan and Feb as I tracked for folks. There were a LOT of plots that were either eaten to a putting green or full of plants that were turning yellow, purple, and red. It�s better to keep things simple but in good condition with proper liming and fert applications rather than getting fancy with the mix and letting it go rank due to skimping on things. Especially, as the season progresses and food sources begin to become more slim�.deer will not care so much whether or not you�re growing rape in your wheat��as much as they�ll care whether or not the wheat you're growing is nice and green and palatable. A pound or two of rape is a fine addition to your mix�..it�s cheap and great for adding diversity�..but it won�t matter if the plants don�t have �vigor���.Vigor: physical strength and good health�..robustness�.hardiness.

This is just gonna be a question about several things to see what I need to do. [img:center]http://[/img] [img:center]http://[/img]
These two pics are taken from the same spot. I decided to expand this field which is small into the pines giving me more room. The peas are doing much better in the pines then in the field. That kind of surprised me any ideas why? [img:center]http://[/img]
This field always grows better but for some reason I have a large section where I really have no grass or weeds growing to speak of. Doesn't make sense except around the trees in the field.
[img:center]http://[/img]
What is this weed? It is taking over part of my field and don't know what to do with it.

Turkeyneck.......Has this field been tilled for past plantings?

Those are two different fields but yes they have been tilled but the last tilling was a one round scratching so it really wasn't disced to dirt. That was last springs planting.

The reason the peas are doing better in the trees is most likely due to more soil moisture. That can be effected by a few factors. One of the most important is organic matter content of the soil�.another is a little midday shade that can keep the soil from drying out as fast�.and another factor is if it�s on a hill or in a low spot. Next time your there, really get down on your hands and knees and compare the difference in the soil in the tree area versus the soil in your field. The improved soil conditions in the tree area is likely going to come from having a lot of built up organic matter in the topsoil�that helps create more favorable conditions. Having tilled in the past�..the field has likely been degraded of organic matter in comparison. That creates unfavorable soil conditions.

The first priority for anyone wanting to use a method like this is to recondition your field and get it back into the same state as that soil in the tree area��THEN�..once that�s accomplished you can focus on trying to grow a few ice cream crops if that�s what you choose to do. At this point in time though�..you just need to focus on amending the soil nutrients and producing biomass to reinfuse the soil with carbon. Turn over some leaf litter in the woods and check out the rich dirt underneath. That's what were wanting. It�s a learning process and asking yourself �Why is that area doing so much better than this area?��.is one of the best things you can do. Once your eyes open up to see the real effects that organic matter is making then it becomes much easier to incorporate managing it as a part of your game plan.

These pics are from several years ago and one of the last tilled plantings I did. I had been heavily tilling for several years and had degraded my soil down to pure sand/silt�..zero organic matter. My Egyptian wheat was really struggling but there were a couple spots of noticeably different growth. The first one was around an old stump and the second place was a spot where I had been piling brush for several years prior�..the difference is due to increased organic matter. This is one the things that first started opening my eyes to the importance of organic matter. Also notice on the right of the first pic how well the "weeds" were producing biomass where it had never been tilled.....still full of organic matter.

http://www.growingdeer.tv/?gclid=CMG4jKO...ting-strategies

Browntop millet update. Check Montgomery County and Macon County plots last weekend. Montgomery field filled out nicely - I would say 80 percent of the 3 acres has a quality stand. It looked like it could use fertilizer so we put out some triple 13.
Not nearly as much rain in Macon County. The half of the field we planted first looked pretty good but not much luck on the half we planted 2 weeks later. All in all looks like we will have plenty of dove feed on fields that otherwise would have had none, with very little effort. Will try some pics when it starts heading out.

Good deal!.....Looking forward to seeing your pics. The rain has been scant out here unless you've been lucky to catch some of these stray storms. I'm finally getting my turn again today with one but its just enough to settle the dust. It'll be dry again in a couple days if it doesn't rain some more..... Day ain't over yet though..

Ok so i have a question about the whole throw and mow process. I am wanting to try this on a powerline for this fall and winter food plots. Is it best to spray to kill everything and then spread out the seed and mow it down? Are there also any types of specific types of plots that work better or worse with this process?

I would spray about 10-14 days before sewing my seed and then mow it down over the top, preferably before a rain. Smaller seeds, like clover and brassica's work best, but wheat and cereal rye work very well. You don't have to spray, but if the vegetation is really thick, i would reccomend it so it will thin out some. The key is for the seed to reach the soil surface.

Anybody just mowed it down with a weed eater? I dont have a tractor w/ a bushhog, and the field is not going to be very big so i was planning just riding on the 4wheeler and weed eating it all

That'll work fine.....I like using cereal rye (Elbon or Wrens Abruzzi). I'd recommend using it for your first attempt. It'll sprout pretty easy.

I'll be using one probably this weekend to knock the weeds down until I can get into the plot and spray it.

Chad

I won't have a club this year for the first time in a long time due to moving. Im going to do a test food plot on the backside of the property. Going to experiment with throw and mow, Denali fertilizer, migjty grow fertilizer, and synthetic fertilizer. Also going to plant 3 clovers in strips to compare them.

Try the sea minerals that westflgator swears by. They're cheap.

Awesome thanks for the advise fellas. I'm gona give it a try in september

Actually you don't even have to mow it. You can spray it, wait about 2 weeks, spread your seed and use a drag and just lay the vegetation over the seed. Just make sure if your using the drag technique that you get a good kill on the vegetation.

I looked at the Sea 90 online. Seems higher than I was thinking. May stop next time in Opp and see how much it is in person. My clovers I am testing this year will be Mihi, Crimson, and Bigbee Berseem. I will plant them with a cover crop of Abruzzi Rye.

Hey turkey_neck......I'm skipping back a page here but that plant in your picture you were asking about I believe is pigweed.

Above two pics from Montgomery County browntop throw and grow.
We have been lucky with rain and results have been great.
Have not been to check Macon County field yet.

That does look nice loprofile....thanks for posting the pics.

Tea Weed (SIDA)

after a month in a pot



After 7 weeks in peat pods

After 7 weeks in 6" pots

Cathead.....It looks like might have a few make it yet.

My caged tea weed is 3-4 ft tall now. The short basket is 4ft tall for reference. It shows the potential of the plant. It may even grow taller than that with more nitrogen. If you look in the background you�ll see that I�m also mowing the field as we speak. I left a little strip down the middle for Otis to hunt around. Several little rabbits came out of the field as I was mowing. I may go ahead and mow the rest this afternoon when it cools off. Most of the vegetation is around knee high and very thick. The ragweed in the field was getting waist high or better.



I wasn�t going to try and double crop it this year as dry as we've been but we�ve finally gotten some substantial rain over the last few days and it looks like we may have more on the way. I figured it would be a good time to mow since the plants will recover quickly now with the good moisture. All the stems you see are ragweed that should put back out some tender growth for the next 6-8 weeks until I get ready to plant my fall plot. This should also make the regrowth much more manageable. I may even try to strictly broadcast and spray this time since my soil surface is in good shape.



An example of the biomass I�m putting down��

A closer look at the strip I left for an idea of how much biomass I was mowing down. It�s so thick that it would have been a boat load to try and mow in another 2 months with the rain we�re now getting.



Bring it on!..........

Stick a fork in it.....It's done.

We've had an good bit of moisture at the camp this summer. Every time I go it friggin rains and cuts my trip short. Everything is growing like crazy. Going to try a mow my three TNM fields down one more time before we spray towards the end of September.

Good deal. I�ve been really dry up until the last week. I�ve gotten a couple showers here and there but just enough to keep things alive. That pattern seems to be changing now though. I haven't measured it but I've been hit with several torrential downpours in the last few days.

Ok, thinking of going this route this year. First year with this property. Only areas I have to plant are sides of roads. Soil looks fairly rocky, however, there is decent grass/weeds growing.

How should I start(what seed to try) and what results are expected (I assume maybe not much the first year)?

Let me make sure I understand, throw seed and fert out and the bush hog. Is it really that simple?

I'm glad I got my fields mowed today. Looks like it's going to be a wet one this week.

[img:left][/img]

Need a couple of young guys and a couple of bush axe's to trim up those lower limbs. It seems to open it up better to me on those long patches.

Cereal rye would be your best option but if you don't want to use that then go with one of the blends of wheat, oats, rye, clover.....try to time it with a rain event if possible. Results in the first year will depend on your soil conditions and how much thatch you have to cover your seed. You're correct that most folks will have better stands as their soil improves. Good luck. If you have any questions along the way, feel free to post them up. Take some pics as well. We all love some pics.

Looking good!.....I agree with Timbercruiser. It wouldn't hurt to trim the limbs and open it up some more.

Thx

Decided at the last minute to try a little experiment. I broadcast 2 1/2 lbs per acre of purple top turnips ahead of this rain and made another quick pass across the field with the bushhog. We'll see what happens.

CNC, blumsden, 270wsm, swamper, all you guys who have tried this.....do any of you have any experience starting out with a fescue base? I'm involved with a new project this year that has a huge amount of plot acreage available, but almost all of it has a strong stand of fescue. There are ag crops on the farm, so traditionally, there's been very little planting of fall plots. The fescue along all the roads and potential plot sites has been bush hogged annually to make it look better for the lanowner. There has been no bush hogging as of yet this year. I'd like to incorporate some fall or perennial plots, just wondering how much of a battle I'll have with the fescue if we try the throw and mow method. Let me know if yall have any ideas. Thanks, CD.

Better spray first.

That part is understood. I'm talking about the desired seed making it to soil contact and the recurrence of the fescue from its own seed.

I agree with Turkey_neck....I think it'll likely work just fine with a fall cereal grain mix if you get a good kill on the fescue. I've seen people use all kinds of stuff for thatch now and pretty much anything that will make good "hay" seems to work. You may want to go ahead and spray now in case you need to do a follow up spraying in a few weeks or at planting time.

Is there a really thick mat of dead grass currently on top of the soil surface?

I plan to go look it over good tomorrow, CNC. I'll let you know.

Good deal.....It may be worth planting a really small test area in a few weeks just to see what happens. It'll be a little early for normal planting but it'll give you a little idea of what to expect and maybe what you need to tweak before time to plant the larger areas.

What seeding rate?

I use 100 lbs/ac for cereal grains.

Thx

CD, i've never planted into fescue, but i've planted into about everything else. I definately would spray and wait about 2 weeks before sewing seed.

The first turnips are already shooting up. They ought to really start popping up over the next couple of days if this rain pans out. So far we haven�t gotten much. What I�m curious to see is if the deer will eat the tender young greens here late in the summer when a lot of other stuff is hardened off and tough. I want to see if I can go ahead and start drawing them back in a little ahead of my fall planting for a little of nothing ($$$)�..Just a fun experiment.

CNC.... I'm going to throw and mow this season and have a good thatch for covering the seeds. I have one spot that was created by loggers this summer that is about a 1/3 of an acre of dirt. It was there log landing I got the bark and rocks off but have nothing to for thatch. I thought of running the drag over it to soften the top a little and going with small seed-clover,rape,greens and maybe rye. Would hauling a couple of rotten round bales and spreading over it be worth the effort or just see what happens.

If it's been used recently as a logging landing then I'd probably go ahead and break it up again here in the beginning. Once you have it planted though, if you've got an old round bale of hay then it'd be a good idea to scatter it over the top of the seed. If you have enough of hay to make to coatings, then it wouldn't hurt to disk in a little of it. It's likely you've got some pretty good compaction after all the logging equipment.

Well after putting down some milorganite the deer let most of the peas in this field grow some. The milo is starting to head and the peas are putting on pods now. Mid-late September won't be nothing left but stems and milo then time to do fall plots. I may have to lightly disc this fall cause the army worms won't leave this field alone. [img:center]http://[/img]

I'm starting to see a few of the little basturds in my field too turkey_neck. I've never had an issue with them in the past so we'll plant at the normal time and hope for the best. I don't know how well the turnips I planted are about to do though. They're coming up good but I'm seeing a little minor bug damage on them already.

Checked my T&M fields today. One has been rooted up by hogs so I'll probably be disking that one this year. I cut the other two fields three weeks ago and the grass hasn't come back like I thought it would. Wishing I hadn't cut them now.

I'm in the same boat bambam....My field is bouncing back some but it's not going to be like I hoped. I'm pretty sure I'm going to still have too much biomass on the soil surface too, even though it does look to be degrading pretty well. On a positive note....the thatch should be pretty crunchy and brittle by then. What I'll likely do is spread seed....then take about half the bite out of my disks and pull over the field just enough to fluff that thatch back up and mix it with the seed. I hope my damn disks still work.

I left a test strip on one side of the field that didn't get mowed to see what it would have looked like. It's probably gone work best to just not do any mowing during the summer like we did and let the field just do its thing. I terminated a lot of my broadleafs by mowing too low and that really has the field off from what I'm needing. The turnips are filling in those areas but they'll never be enough to make thatch like I need I don't believe. We'll see, still almost a month before I'll plant. I need to take some pics and post.

The grass in my fields is about waist high where the army worms haven't been. I should have enough thatch in most of the fields but we will see. I do have some bare areas.

When I was cutting my fields three weeks ago I noticed that the grass had a head on it. Looks like I terminated it so lesson learned. Next year I will cut in May after the wheat has died and let it run until I plant in the fall. I did pull back some of the dried thatch and there was a lot of moisture underneath. Like you,I will probably broadcast and then fluff it up with the disk.

My brother knows some guys who spray, broadcast and then disk it with the gangs straight. They have had a lot of success with this approach. The same concept but with a little soil disturbance.

It�s all good. I think you�re definitely seeing the forest instead of getting hung up on individual trees as so many folks do. A disk and a bushhog are nothing more than tools. The most important thing is to be able to assess your situation and then apply the tool and method best suited to that unique scenario while still keeping in mind our long term goals of soil improvement. It's just like it says on the Undercover Farmers video....."It's not about the tools, it's about the understanding."

You may make some mistakes along the way but you can�t be scared of failure if you want to discover something new. Being observant like you�re doing will greatly expand your hands on experience/knowledge over time. You just saw how to terminate a crop without spraying�. and it�s sure not a bad thing that our fields have a nice mulch mat on them over the next few weeks leading up to us planting. We�ll very likely have good soil moisture to plant into when you combine that mat with the fact the we terminated a lot of the vegetation and it�s not using water anymore. We�re more less banking the moisture we get over the next few weeks.

Crimson, what you paying for cereal rye? I can't find elbon or abruzzi, just pennington's wintergrazer. It's $17/bag.

I haven't checked yet. I usually get my stuff from the Co-op in Notasulga and they have always had it. I hope it's come back down a little this year.

Well crimson, i'm headed to the club this afternoon to spray, and i've decided to try the new method, spray throw and walk away. I'm going to spray today and come back this weekend and throw my seed. I normally would drag the thatch down, but i think it will grow better with the thatch standing, but still shading the soil. It should keep the deer from hammering it too soon as well. We'll see. I've found that after i spray and wait 10-14 days, the grass is already pressed down in a mat. The seed still makes it to the soil, but it makes it hard for the plant to push up thru the mat sometimes.

Cool!...Good luck with it. I've got a powerline I'm going to experiment with. It's grown up pretty thick in vegetation and I think will provide a good canopy. We'll see.....I have a lot of faith in what that book says. The author was basically doing the same exact experiments that we are and everything about the method and thinking have fallen right in line so far. The author is well ahead of us too in experience. He spent a lifetime experimenting and was an agricultural research professor to begin with.

To keep all our experiments on the up and up....I need to report that my early planting of turnips was a flop. I got good germination in the pockets of broadleafs that terminated but between the drought and bugs, most of it bit the dust or just petered out. I went ahead and sprayed the whole field yesterday and plan on planting in another 2-3 weeks. I'm waiting on these 90+ temps to go away first and some moisture ahead of planting. Soil is really dry right now. It's gonna take a good rain to get it back right for planting.

Throw and mow question, with it as dry as it is, I assume you wait for a period of time when rain is in the forecast just like plowing and planting?

Yes, but its not as crtical, because its covered in thatch. If everybody waiting on the rains to begin, well, good luck with that because October is the driest month of the year. To me, its best to get it down with rain in the forecast and hopefully one of these scattered showers will hit your plots. I don't know about you but i don't have esp, and the weather guys are wrong so much you just don't know when to plant anymore, so i plant when i always do, middle to late September. My farm is planted and i plan to plant my club Sunday. Good luck.

JMO....but I would wait a little longer if you have the choice. The weather forecast is still looking like more summer right now. Hopefully within another week or two will see that major season changing cold front push through. I'd at least wait until next weekend and see if things are looking more favorable then. Right now it's just looking like it's going to be another hot, dry week.

This is a little farther discussion into why I would not choose to plant now. I think you should definitely look at long term trends when making decisions. It�s the smart thing to do��But when it comes to making the individual year to year decisions on when to plant�..I think you should first and foremost take the current conditions into considerations if given a choice of when to plant.

Some years we may have tropical systems push out the gulf�.some years we may have early cold fronts push through with slow soaking rains and cooler temps�.and some years we may have summer linger on for an extra couple weeks.

A couple considerations�..My soil is not bone dry right now but at the same time, it�s not that moist either. There is a big outbreak of armyworms this year. The forecast I�m looking at is showing less than 50% rain chances (30% here) with high temps in the low to mid 90�s for the next week. Putting seed out right now is putting it at a high risk of bad things happening�..birds, continued drought, partial germination, etc�..If given the choice�.I�m waiting on better conditions before trying to crank my field up.

Very likely within the next two weeks we will see highs dip down into the lower 80�s or maybe even a good front that pushes us the 70�s. It will likely have rain associated with it. Either on that front or the week or two following that front is when I would plant. If we look like we�re going to have a wet pattern move in over the 7-day, then I don�t mind waiting and planting just behind the front. The less days my seed is sitting in poor conditions the better. All I need is that one cycle of good conditions and the field will be off and running easily by bow opener. You can go from nothing to green in about 10 days if conditions are good.

Here�s where I�m sitting right now. As I said a few posts back, my experimenting with trying to double crop got me way off from what I needed to be to do a throw and mow planting. I�m just going to adapt. I sprayed several days ago and mowed the remaining thatch down yesterday evening. I went back this morning and spot sprayed a few clumps of nutsedge with a hot dose of gly.



Now I�m just gonna wait and let this hay break down a little. There�s a mix of fresh hay and old hay/weed stalks that�s in a very decomposed state. The top 5-6 inches of soil is light and sorta flufffy like potting soil. My hopes are that some of these minor rain chances this weekend pan out and I get everything watered down good enough to soak it. Once we get a cold front then I�m going to do my best to mix in the seed and fert without really turning lots of soil�more like tettering hay. I�ll have to play with the bite of the disks a little but I�m thinking just a minor amount of angle will work.

The caged teaweed is mature now. It�s got a boatload of seed on the bushes. This is only a small fraction of the seed. I've got several bushes spilling out of the baskets. All of those little bulbs contains a cluster of seeds. All I�m doing is cutting the branches into sections and pitching them here and there around the field. I figure it�ll seed itself enough to get it started in patches. I really like this plant so far. The deer left it alone there for a little while but they came back to it late in the summer just before it seeded.



Here�s something else I really liked. This is the soil underneath the plants. The thick canopy is excellent for decomposing biomass on the soil surfaace. This would be a perfect soil surface to broadcast a seed onto and let germinate under the canopy of the teawead before mowing it and removing the overstory. It's extremely light and fluffy.

I saw lots of people planting last weekend in this extreme drought we're having. Last Sat night it came a quick down pour and hasn't rain since I have a feeling alot of those folks have messed up big time.

I sprayed my fields last week and they are just beginning to yellow. Two fields where full of 3 ft ragweed and not sure how good thats going to work for thatch?

Yeah, it�s ugly conditions out there right now. My yard was dying and that little rain perked it up for a few days and now it�s right back to dying again. These hot days are brutal.

I think you'll be fine if the ragweed is that tall if its thick as well.

In anticipation for next summer, what would be your choice for the summer plants? I'm planning on planting my oats/rye/wheat/clover/rape combination as soon as this weather gets right. I would like to come behind it next spring with a good summer plot, and would like yalls recommendations. It will be my first throw and mow, as I have only recently discovered this process, and already have a mowed and sprayed field, ready to run over with a disc.

It completely depends on your situation. For most folks, I would recommend growing natural vegetation and spending your money on lime and other nutrients.

So there is no benefit to planting a warm season plot such as buckwheat or ic peas? I have already amended with lime, and will be fertilizing throughout the fall.

In theory yes�.in practical applications, not always and more often than not...no. I�d have to assess someone�s overall situation before saying whether or not I would recommend for them to plant summer plots. For some folks it makes sense�.for many it does not. If you�re only planting small plots that have no hopes of keeping up with deer browsing, then I�d rather see someone grow a lush field of fertilized natural vegetation with some clover mixed in that the deer still fed on, but that also produced lots of above ground biomass production and root growth.

Ok, awesome, thanks for the reply. Sounds like I'll be in the 2nd category, because my fields are only around 2 acres. With that being said, after I plant this fall, do I cut it at all throughout the year or just wait til next fall to throw n mow?

You can mow in the spring to knock back the cereal grains if you think that they�re completely shading out the clover. If not just let it go and the deer with hammer the seed heads when they mature. I�d hit it in late spring April/May with 50 lbs/ac of 34-0-0 and 50 lbs/ac of 0-0-60��..then another 50 lbs/ac of 34-0-0 in July if its feasible to do so. I�d do a soil test in Sept and adjust nutrients from there.

Well, i went to the club and spread my seed, just as i got done and was getting ready to spray, the rains came. Couldn't have timed it more perfect. I'll spray today when i get off. We got good rain at the club and on my farm. It had actually rained a couple times at the club before i planted. There were mudholes full of water.

Good deal!....It's looked rainy here for the last couple days but we haven't got squat yet.

Blum, I look at planting like playing Texas Hold �em��it�s a matter of probabilities. A guy may have a Jack/5 and decide to play it and the results may be that he wins the hand or it may be that he loses the hand. Someone may go in with a pair of pocket Kings and still lose the hand�..but the probabilities of each hand are still really what you�re playing. The same with planting�.I look at planting time as well as the techniques we choose to use as a means of trying our damdest to be holding a pair of pocket Aces when we plant or as close to it as possible. It�s not a hardcore black and white line�.it�s gambling.

I agree. Problem is, we never know when its going to rain. Several times last month the weather channel was calling from 70%-100% chance of rain at my place, and we didn't get a drop. They would call for 20%-30% and it would rain, so i try and plant about the same time every year that i've been planting for the last 25 years, with rain in the forecast and it works for me. Knock on wood, i've never had an army worm problem. I hear people say wait for October, and yet October on average is our driest month. Bottom line, do whatever works best for you. BTW, i planted into some live knee high grass at the club Sunday. Yesterday i sprayed, we'll see how that goes.

I have got to plant this weekend. I sprayed last Thursday, would not mowing as low to the ground help with moisture? Or does it matter how low you mow?

The more I think about it, the more leaving standing vegetation might help a little....but I'd still like my seed to be covered. Honest answer would be... I don't know for sure.

Thank you. Almost all my plots have plenty of cover. Last year i mowed about as low as the bush hog could go but I had plenty of mositure and it rained a good bit almost immediately following the planting. We have 30%, 30%, and 20% Monday-Wednesday with much cooler temps behind it. Even if it doesn't rain we should get some dew or fog in the mornings. I was think leaving 6-8 inches standing would help keep the birds off it and shade would help with moisture. We will see???

Still holding here. I'm in the orange now on the drought map. It came a brief afternoon shower going on three weeks ago and that's been it. I've got my fingers crossed that this front brings enough rain to settle the dust and then this tropical system heads our way. You can see dust kicking up off the dog's feet when they run right now. Snakes are on the move too. Neighbor has killed a couple within the last week and I got a small rattler here at my place yesterday.

I plant plots every year for a couple of clubs and they are freaking out that I haven't planted yet. I sprayed a couple of weeks ago and their plots are brown... Grown men that don't understand it takes rain to make it grow.No rain in the 7 day outlook other than a sprinkle today with the front coming thru.

There�s no need to until we get some different weather for sure.

this weekend will be the only weekend I can get all my members there to help me plant, If I dont plant this weekend I'll end up doing it myself. I' cant decide what to do

This weather pattern has to break pretty soon.

I threw Saturday and mowed today. It rained almost enough to settle some dust. I am hoping the cool weather will at least have some moisture in it at night and the morning.

We got some serious rain in south Shelby county. Sure hope that seed put down 2 weeks ago didn't all get eaten by birds.

Still just waiting on rain. I�ve decided that I�m just gonna drag my seed in. My soil is so soft and this hay is already broken down enough that I believe I will be better to just use a drag.



In the future I won�t try anymore double cropping of natural vegetation, I�ll just let the field do its thing naturally until planting day. Here is a strip I left to compare what it would have looked like. All of this vegetation has gone through its summer growth cycle and is now ready to transition naturally to another crop.



Here�s what that would look like after being mowed. You can see that it�s just as dead as if it would have been sprayed.

Planted most of my plots the generic disk and sow method and tried the "throw n mow" method on 3 plots. I will say, during these drought times, the generic disk and sow method was the only plots that we got seeds to germinate and grow with the one rain we have had since planting...

With the weather the way it is right now, that may end up being a detriment that it sprouted. I wouldn�t call winners and losers just yet. As long as the birds aren�t hammering the fields then your seed is still there in the T&M plots. I know hunting clubs plan certain planting weekends in advance but with the current conditions the way they are��.it would be better to not plant at all right now. I know that doesn�t sound like an option for many but going ahead with planting right now is a huge gamble regardless of the method. It would really be good to let it go ahead and rain first before we all started trying to plant. It�s gonna take a really good rain event to turn around the brown drought we�re getting into. These are just horrible planting times�.worst I can remember seeing for fall plots.

CNC, like you, I tried to double crop but now I don't have enough to mow. I've only got two T&M fields because the hogs jacked up one of them. I'll be running the disk over the plots with the gangs in a non-aggressive position. I'm hoping that I can keep most of the thatch on top. We are going to spread our lime and fertilizer this weekend and wait for a better forecast before slinging the seed.

Well, after 2 days of running a sprinkler on a bottom plot, i've finally got some sprouts showing up. I was so excited, like a kid at x-mas. I'm going to water again and this weekend hit it with some fertilizer. At least i'll have one plot to bowhunt. I had an eight pointer last year just out of range on this plot.

Hey, at least now we know. Next year it'll be easy to sit back and just let the field be until planting time.

I was sitting here thinking about trying to water something like a 10' x 10' area right in front of my stand. As dry and dead as everything is around here....one little green patch could put an old doe right in easy stickin range.

If ya'll want to feel better ride up to Jackson co and have a look.

Been runnin' a pair of sprinklers on 1/4 acre for last 2 weeks. 5 sessions of 1hr each 2 or 3 days apart. The plot was half a** plowed and disced to same level of proficiency. This was due to dryness. Then sprayed Gly and seeded with BL Full Draw and EH Mega forage same day in mid sept. Mowed sides in over to help. Fertilized same day as 1st watering. Getting green were water is hitting pretty much.

With the turkeys we have, pretty much any seed that has not sprouted yet will be gone... It is all going to end up bad.

Well, i been pulling back my thatch and looking and i've still got plenty of seed on the ground. One thing i've noticed since i started using a sprinkler on a couple plots, is that if you have really good thatch, it will take a couple hours of running the sprinkler to get the soil damp. The thatch will prevent premature sprouting during a lite rain. Crimson, i think you were talking about this very thing a few days ago. Where i had disk a small strip for dove hunting and threw out some wheat, sprouted after our last rain. It is 1" high and probably ain't going to make it. No rain here in over 2 weeks. None of my thatch plots sprouted, except the one where i'm using the sprinkler.

Yep�..I�ve noticed that too. It takes a significant rain event to saturate your thatch and the soil. I guess that�s a good thing though. Once it does come a good rain then you�re golden for the same reason��the thatch holds a chit ton of moisture.

Planning to plant my field right behind the house this weekend. I can get a hose to it after adding a lot of sections. Looks like I won't have any other plots till November at this rate. May have to buy a bale or two of hay to strew on some thin areas.

I planted Kale, radishes, and turnips during the last rain we had in September. They were looking great last weekend under the thatch. Today........pretty much all of them are shriveled and dead or gone. I'm going to wait on my rye and clover.

(Dinner Bell!!!) Come and get it!......

Dang, crimson, what happened? One of your apple tree's fall over?

Those are Japanese persimmons. It�s so loaded that they�re pulling the limbs to the ground. The first ones are just starting to get ripe. If you look on the ground, you can see where I just mowed a circle around it. It�s about to get ugly when the deer find it. Kind of surprised they haven�t already started hittin �em.

you should def put a camera on it

Its a good thing the limbs are low. My Jap Persimmons do not drop.

I've never heard of a Japanese persimmon. Do deer prefer them over regular persimmons or is it about the same?

Yes, they�re like deer crack. They don�t taste like a regular persimmon�.they�ve got this really odd sweet taste to it. Some people like to eat them but I don�t care for �em too much. The downside is that they don�t drop from the limbs even when they get ripe. That means you have to do something to train the tree to not have the form of one main trunk. Its just been coincidence with this one but I see how I need to do my new ones with future plantings. I like these trees because they really put out the fruit and it doesn�t ripen until deer season. It�s not quite ready yet. The pic doesn't do it justice...it's LOADED! One tree will probably go quick when they start on it but if you had say 15-20 of them....that'd be a good little bit of fruit in one spot.

That's pretty interesting. How quickly do they grow?

Eh...a little slower than other fruit trees I'd say but they start producing fruit very early. It'll likely put off a few persimmons in it's second year. The one in the pic is in the 5-6 year old range.

Does are already hitting my little 1/4 ac plot 5 weeks after planting. The irrigation is working but I wish they were eating acorns for a few more weeks to give the plants some more time.

Planted 6 plots this weekend. It was overcast Sat afternoon and Sun morning, but no rain. It'll be interesting to see how these plots turn out this year. I experimented with spraying vs not spraying as I'm trying to get rid of unwanted grass in a couple of plots.

Creek Plot- Feb 2016



Creek Plot- Oct 2016
Sprayed May and Sept
Planted 10/16 with Rye, Crimson and Advantage Clover

They bumped the rain chance to 80% and a good chance next week... I'm putting seed out tomorrow Lord willing.

After planting last Sunday and building a redneck greenfield watering stand I have seeds starting to sprout. I may build one more to keep me from having to move it. But I definitely have some take off and this cooler weather should help.

Let's hear more about this redneck watering stand.

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1 10' 1" pipe, 5 90s, 2 T's 1 rotor, 1 male threaded adapter and one female to female hose connector. I have a 8 gpm nozzle in it and still enough pressure to build another one. Cost bout $20 to build it all.

I like it!

Desperate times call for desperate measures I guess. Looks good though. What is your water source?

So you just have a nozzle spraying in one direction, and not a rotating sprinkler?

Well,gonna throw some seed out and mow existing vegetation down on top on Saturday and hope for the best. Will post before/after mow pics and hopefully some greenfield pics later

No it's set 360 and I'm watering with city water and about 400' of hose.

Last bit of watering from a well was 11 days ago. Owner got worried about his well running dry. Will see Sunday about condition of plants

Well, sick kid kept me from going yesterday. Guess we will go next weekend. Got a fertilizer question. With it as dry as it is, should I throw fert out with the seed or wait until a better outlook for rain?

I haven't messed with a soil sample, will look at addressing that starting next spring/summer. Just gonna hope for the best this year

I would wait for rain unless you are using a stabilized nitrogen.

Go ahead and throw it out unless using urea.....you'll be fine.

Going to fertilize this weekend to kick it in high gear but it's growing good right now. [img:center]http://[/img]

Nice!!....You oughta have something hammering that before long.

Aight, hope it works. If not, I get to kick CNC in the nuts

Before


After sed and fert applied

Sunlight will be one of your limiting factors, don't blame CNC for that.

Hope it gets enough sunlight. Right now rain is my biggest issue, lol.

I figure if there was enough sunlight for all the natural stuff, maybe a green field could grow. But, I have been wrong before

I stopped at a feed store Saturday to pick up fertilizer for my field. There was a sheet that had all the seed fert and lime prices on it. Beside the lime it said 200# per acre. He told me the extension agent said 200# would raise the ph by 1 point. I find that hard to believe but if true I'm in good shape. I put out 1000# in may on a little over an acre.

200lbs/acre is not going to raise the ph a point, but i'm sure you already know that. Probably meant 2000lbs/acre, if not county extension agent needs to be fired. 200lbs/1000 sq ft maybe.

I'm completely new to this whole deer farming thing. Can you give a detail on how you are preparing the fields? Are you literally just spreading seed and fertilizer?

No, there�s a lot more to it than that even though the process may sound that simple. I�ll see if I can find some of the old threads. You other guys who have been doing this for a while help me out here too.

CNC,
What you think about my thatch I was able to cut down?? Sufficient or not? Hope seed comes up and I am able to cut it all back mid summer or so and let weeds and such take over again. We will see.

From the pic it looks like you've got a pretty decent amount of thatch over your seed but it's all just gonna hinge on if we ever get any substantial rain. A 1/4 or 1/2 inch of rain isn't gonna do much.

I hear ya on the rain. It has to at some point!!

You would think so but I�m about ready to throw in the towel. It was looking promising for the first of next week but now the chances have went back to nil.