Warm weather makes cereal rye happy

My throw and mow plot survived the drought we had here south bama and is now thriving. I thought I would post up a couple of updated pics. Again, this plot was planted by doing nothing more than broadcasting seed into standing thatch and then mowing the thatch to cover the seed.

The benefits of doing it is this way are many. It improves the organic matter content, which in turn improves your nutrient and water holding capacity. This is major for those with sandy soils. It improves water infiltration and allows your plot to take advantage of all the rain we receive instead of having large amounts “run-off”. It improves moisture retention by creating a blanket over the soil, which keeps the soil moisture from evaporating. It regulates soil temperatures and keeps the soil from having wide daily temperature swings up and down, which is needed for optimal plant growth. It improves the microbial activity in the soil, which is vital for optimal plant function. It also saves a lot of time, labor, and $$$$.

I tried the throw and mow at the house in a small plot that hasn't been tilled in 4 years. I used trictacale I had left over and it has done fairly well considering the lack of rain after planting.

My south bama plot did very well, also. Then the deer mowed it down. It's still growing, though.

Cool!....This warm weather is really helping my plot out now that we finally have some soil moisture to work with. I had added some 34-0-0 also several weeks ago and I'm pretty sure its just now kicking in good. When temps are in the 70's like they are now, cereal rye nearly grows like the grass in your yard. I've mowed it in the spring and it jump right back up within a week.

Sweet.....What did you plant?

WMS Deer Magnet w/ Coker oats(disced) and top sowed more radishes and turnips. Everything got about a foot tall and now it's about 2-3" tall. Wish I could've hunted it when they first started mowing it down.

I'm going to go back to using oats in my mix next year mixed with the cereal rye. I was reading some other threads the other day and it reminded me why Lickcreek recommended adding oats. Cereal rye is slow to establish. Oats jump up and establish quicker so you have something for the deer to graze while the rye gets going. Oats also seem to be the most preferred cereal grain according to side by side tests I did a few years ago with wheat, rye, and oats. I wouldn't suggest planting just oats though as you may find a dead plot if temps dip too low. A buddy of mine did that last year.

Yeah, in normal years, I'll put up pie plates and wind chimes to keep the deer out of the fields until the week of bow season. It was funny watching them pick around the turnips and rashes eating the oats. This year I didn't put anything up and the deer hammered them early. That was my fault.

I used trictacale as my main forage with the wms trophy magnet and like how the deer have taken to it. I'm trying for this spring to be my first real test with the throw and mow at the house.

Milo and cowpeas both work real well. I've never planted the wms mix....Does it have any clover in it? Durana, Yuchi Arrowleaf, and Crimson are all good options.

The Deer Magnet has a lot of clover in it. It's coated in grow coat, too.

Deer magnet is good stuff. The deer are pounding my plots hard right now

I looked up what was in the WMS....It looks like a pretty good seed blend. I could see it being very useful for someone who was just planting an acre or so but if you're talking about planting any significant amount of plots, I think you could mix your own blend for a good bit cheaper. Nothing special in there that can't be bought individually.

It's done better than anything we've ever planted.

CNC you're right on. WMS is high as giraffes p***y! you can blend you're own for a 1/3 to 1/2 the price. I planted deer magnet on short notice this year kinda last minute plot. Not paying that again.

You fellers that roll yer own must have a better Co-op than Jackson Farmers. You go in ours asking for what's in WMS deer magnet, half they won't have, other half the never heard of or can't get at all.

No I just have a direct contact and are a Wax Seed Co dealer. Just happens I can break down the components and order them direct to my warehouse.

Well.

Sounds like he could hook a brother up.

Yep

Yep. He can!

I think you could do just as good to use a mix of cereal rye, triticale, crimson clover, yuchi clover, turnips or radishes. That's the same basic mix and all very common seeds around here. I don't think the winter peas or the cbicory is a "must have" in there.

Yep… over the years there have been several on here that are convinced people are throwing away money that buy products from seed companies, such as Imperial Whitetail Clover, WMS, etc. I've run the numbers, called around to various seed stores, looked at mixing and putting in a big spreader buggy, etc., etc., etc. At the end of the day the savings, if any, is so negligible, that when I consider my time being worth something, the pre-mix, pre-enoculated seeds are a better buy IMO.

Also, might be worth noting that with WMS you only plant 50 lbs. to the acre, not 100…

Now, if i had a seed store and could buy in bulk…

Seems like many co-ops or seed stores have no idea what you're talking about if you ask for anything other than deer corn, trace mineral salt, or wheat. That experience has me less than inspired to go searching to replicate seed blends.

Anyone know of seed stores that seem knowledgable and stock the type seed we're looking for?

I’m not sure what the breakdown is of the mix but I’m guessing that the cereal grain portion is around 40 lbs. That rate is on the extreme low end of “normal” stocking rates or stocking density. Yes, I know it’s in a mix but the cereal grain is the main staple that carries any mix throughout the whole hunting season. If you have any significant amount of browsing pressure on your plots then I believe you need to plant at a higher rate no lower than 75-100 lbs on your cereal grains. The reason it tells you on the bag to plant at a very low stocking density is because noone would probably buy it if it was going to cost them $100 per acre in seed alone to plant. Just because they tell you to plant at the bare minimum stocking rate doesn’t mean that its necessarily the rate you need to plant either. Its just the rate that’s best for keeping their product affordable. I don’t want to try and keep up with the browsing pressure of 20-30 deer on a 2 acre plot using the bare minimum stocking density.

http://www.alseed.com/UserFiles/Documents/Product%20Info%20Sheets-PDF/Basics%20Triticale-2010.pdf

“Plant about 100 –120 pounds per acre. Use lower rate for grain production and higher rate for forage. Triticale does not tiller as much as wheat.”

I wouldn't expect you to consider another's opinion, but there are a lot of folks that have had a lot of success planting the WMS seed at 50 # per acre. A lot of us add 25 pounds of oats, but that's still coming in way under 100 to 120… maybe you should try it… we used this mix last year, during the coldest winter we've seen in years and the deer were hitting our fields past January up into Feb…probably never quit using them, but I quit hunting and didn't have any cameras out. Maybe some folks recommedn 100 to 120 to make more money or cause their germination rate is no count...

I think many WMS mixes include several brassicas/radishes/peas that will create shade on a fraction of the plot. Maybe WMS is taking into account the effect of other components in the mix. Most people overestimate the acreage of a plot anyhow and end up overseeding to some degree.

If your plots receive much browsing pressure at all then stuff like the radishes and winter peas will likely be consumed like a one-time snack. They will never get to the stage to shade anything out. I added winter peas to my mix this fall as a test and I just don’t see the bang being worth the buck. I plant radishes for soil improvement but my browsing pressure just seems to have gotten too high for that goal to be accomplished. I’m going to try them in the spring to see if I can get different results.

That being said, even if your radishes do grow and cast shade….when we up the rate of cereal grains, then you are increasing the number of grass stems per sq ft. So if you go from 50 lbs to 100 lbs then you are doubling the stocking density and doubling the amount of grass stems per sq ft. The radish in the mix may shade some of the plot but the remaining sq ft of area that’s not shaded will still have double the amount of cereal grain stems. Still though, I doubt there are a whole lot of people who are actually producing fully mature radishes on small acreage plots. I’m sure there are some. Most of what is carrying the plot through the winter though, in any plot, is the cereal grain.

The 40 lbs per acre stocking rate of the cereal grains in this mix is what is normally recommended as a nurse crop for establishing perennial clover plots. That doesn’t mean however, that it’s the best stocking rate for providing winter forage to an animal…..especially when there is any significant browsing pressure. Stocking rates for forage production are much higher than rates of nurse crops.

Does anyone have the seed % breakdown on the bag? I'm curious to see how much of each seed is used. I'm just taking a guess on the 40 lbs number.

We had fully mature radishes on our place last year.

For years I have bought a pallet of Abruzzi or elbon rye. This will plant 20 acres. I top seed with 4 or 5 types of clover after the rye gets up good and hopefully just before a rain. This year I wasn't able to plant the clover, but there was enough clover seed in my seed bank that I got a good stand of clover coming up anyway. Rye seed cost more than oats or wheat. The savings is in the fertilizer and cold doesn't kill it.

Yeah, cereal rye doesn't have near the N requirement as wheat. Its actually grown as a cover crop using no N. When you plant it in a food plot, grazing pressure is one of the things to consider when deciding how much N to feed it. It can grow without any but if you have a lot of deer eating on it....then you may want to step on the gas just a little. On the other hand, if you have a large acreage field or you don't have a high deer density, etc....then you can cut back on the amount of N you give it. Maybe to none at all. You don't want it to grow so fast that gets way ahead of browsing pressure and bolts....getting long and stemmy.

Cereal rye is also the fastest growing cereal grain and grows and lower temps than other cereal grains. This makes a difference when your trying to keep up with grazing pressure. The water oaks out here are literally raining acorns like I've never seen. Its really helped to take some of the pressure of my plot so far.

2Dogs......I know that you said you like it thick. Is this getting more to your liking?

Same azzhats told me it was illegal to sell MSMA and that no one could order it anymore. I called Dekalb Farmers Coop and they had a truckload. CD.

Plot looks great CNC.

You'd have them just as thick with half the amount of seed if you'd hook the disk up.

Well you know me and pictures 2Dogs. I just so happen to have a picture from several years ago of the same seed rate planted in the same field after disking. Doesn't look any thicker to me. To me it looks like my throw and mow method got just about the same germination rates or maybe even better as the disked planting.

Oh no....say it ain't so.

Thanks CD. Its raining acorns around here right now and its helping to take some browsing pressure off the plot. It needed it too after all that dry weather. Should be good to go now for the late season.

was that picture taken a a couple of weeks after planting or 6 weeks after planting, like the throw and mow appears to be? Plots will continue to get thicker over time…I know you already know that, but it would appear that the disced ground pic was taken not long after planting. Regardless, that plot looks pretty sparse. That is NOT what our plots look like after spraying, discing and broadcasting, with the WMS mix plus 25 lbs. oats.

You are correct, Sir. I don't think I've ever had any that were that thin. I think we are seeing why CNC is obsessed with soil improvement, that must be some of the most pitiful dirt in the state. Is there any plants that have been nipped? Looks like there are no deer there or they don't like what's growing for some reason.

Here's one of mine, I know, I know it's just after green up, but I think anyone could say that had to be one fine plot in the fall too. Ground worked up with an evil disk . I like pictures too, of big bucks, I really like dead ones in the back of my truck. Post up some bucks you've killed out of your plots. You show me yours and I'll show you mine.

Imperial Clover Field this year and WMS field from last year. The WMS field pic was taken less than 3 weeks after we planted, and if I remember correctly we had one decent rain and that was about it. Even though my dirt was mad at me for running a disc, she still managed to grow some pretty decent stands.

Excellent plots Rob.

Anyone tried Modelo beer? They’re pretty damn tasty. Kind of like a better version of a Corona to me. They’ve got a helluva kick too. Start going down like water after just a few of ‘em.

2Dogs…..You are exactly correct. I have some of the absolute worst soil in the state. Its nearly pure sand and has almost zero holding capacity for moisture and nutrients. Unfortunately in the state of Alabama….really crappy soil tends to be the rule and not the exception and there’s nothing you do to change your soil type. These kind of soils are very unforgiving and sometimes it can be hard to get anything to even grow in these type conditions, much less thrive. Add in high deer densities and it leaves many people scratching their heads as to just why they can’t grow plots like they see other people growing.

Then you have guys like you who are blessed with some of the best soil in the state. These soils have very high nutrient and water holding capacities and are capable of growing good plots regardless of the method used and despite the fact the you have no clue as to why. You don’t even know how to interpret a soil test but because you go throw out some seed along with a few hundred pounds of 13-13-13 and it works…..you’re quick to jump into a conversation such as this like you’re a master farmer….again, despite the fact you don’t have the least understanding of soil science.

I have taken some of the least productive soil you could have and I’ve turned it around and made it a productive plot that’s capable of withstanding the browsing pressure of a high density deer population. I post these threads because I know there are many folks out there with crappy soil just like mine who would like to know how they can improve their situation. It’s fine if you want to be my antagonist and just spend your time figuring out how to be a bigger azzhat….but if you would take a moment to stop and listen then you may not have to have your farmer buddies keep reading your soil test’s for you.

You need to look upstream , I hadn't posted a word, you posted a question to me, pal.

I've got a understanding of deer, I'm not huntin' dirt.

You're a one trick pony. I think you need to start your own website, aldirt.com.

talk about the pot calling the kettle black… CNC, if you would take a moment and stop and listen you would see that "most" people on this site are 110% content with their foodplots and probably don't like people (you) telling them what they are doing is inferior to what you are doing. If you have crappy soil and your throw and mow tactics work for you, then great, but I've seen what you use, seen your pictures, and frankly I'm not overly impressed. As for your comment about "most" places in AL. having terrible soil…I would agree that "some" places have bad soil, but I've hunted in at least 10 Counties in Al. and have never seen issues with growing foodplots. Sure some areas, especially several years ago, had too many deer, but I don't care how you get a foodplot to grow, if you have 20 deer eating on an acre foodplot every day (no browse or mass crop), the plot is going to get eaten down.

See, CNC, if a hunter's foodplot is bringing deer in and feeding the deer through out the year (9-10 months of the year) and they are killing deer on or around the foodplots then they have achieved what they set out to do. I have no doubt you know more about soil than I do, but so what? How does that make you a better hunter than me or anyone else, or put you in a better position to kill a good buck each season? we could all go read a bunch of info. on dirt, just like you did, but I guess the point is, why should we? Most of us would still be spraying, discing and broadcasting seed and getting better results with less seed… As for the few on here that obviously like your methods, good for you for helping them, but just understand that everyone isn't going to agree with you, and that doesn't make them dumb… The guy you basically called an idiot, 2Dogs, has some of the best hunting property in the state. He's in a great area, but he's also created some of the best deer habitat in Jackson Co. and has killed some dang good bucks. If that is irrelevant to you, then you might want to go and join a gardening website.

Easy TD. I wouldn't know about some of the best in the state. It's just ol' NE Bama land with a little enhancement. It does suit my requirements. Ya'll ain't doing so bad yourselves. Love those pics of your plots with the mountain in the background. Looks mighty good.

Are y'all two just going to take turns giving each other reach arounds all night?

Jealous people.

We might just hook up the disk and go for a ride on the big green tractor.

Hey this belongs in the qdma forum.

Signed, 49er

I don't care one way or the other but I got shitty soil too and am glad to try anything that might help.

Just disk in lime and fertilizer. People don't realize how critical lime is. Don't cut corners. Any poor ground can be made better by doing simple things.

Each soil has a different holding capacity as it concerns water and nutrients. This is determined by two things…1) The amount of clay content in the soil 2) The amount of organic matter in the soil. The problem with many of us is that we have sandy soils with very, very little clay content. Therefore we don’t have the ability to hold onto anything more than small amounts of water and nutrients. On sandy soils especially, soil moisture is just as vital as any other aspect of soil health. If you don’t have any clay content to begin with, then there is nothing you can ever do to change that. The only way you can effect the holding capacity of your soil is through adding #2….organic matter. I’ve taken the soil in the field here in my pics from a CEC (holding capacity) of 2 to a CEC of 6 through increasing the organic matter. The % organic matter in my soil has gone from 0.5% to 3.6%. You can disk in all the lime and fert you want but if there is nothing in the soil to hold onto them, then it really does you little good. You have to have negatively charged clay or OM particles for the positively charged nutrients to bond to. If you want to improve crappy sandy soil, then one of the best things you can do is to start managing for increased organic matter in your soil.

I use Hydra Hume. It's a Humic acid product. Basically it's like chicken litter in a bag without the stink. That way I don't have to no till. Just disk it in with my fert.

What's the price tag on doing something like that?

It's $1 per lb. On somewhat decent ground use 20 lbs per acre. On new ground such as CRP take in or logging deck establishing use 40 lbs per acre to start then as tilth improves move back to 20lb rate.

…..and you’re saying that someone is going to significantly change their organic matter content by adding 20-40 lbs per acre? You said it was chicken litter in a bag. Chicken litter is applied by the ton. Tell us more about this product. How does it work? If its truly legit...I may be interested in trying it.

What about unrolling some old round bales on your food plots?

Hydra Hume is the refined raw OM that litter provides. It's highly concentrated. We use it on cut ground in Ark and Ms delta rice ground. I've used it a good bit up here in N bama on row crop ground where we get into poor low CEC heavy clay hilltops that just won't grow much. It makes a difference.

Here is a recent photo of my soil profile. You can see the layer of black dirt caused from the increased organic matter content that extend down to 6-8 inches or so. You can also see the soil “structure” beginning to change in the top few inches. This is what allows for aeration and water infiltration. Imagine the difference in water hitting this soil surface versus hitting a solid bare surface that’s more similar to concrete. Taking advantage of all the rainfall we receive is one of the first steps to good soil moisture management.

257…. If we were able to dig up that 6-8 inch layer of dark topsoil in my picture…..How much do you suppose 1 acre worth would weigh? I’m guessing its going to be some tons. You agree?

Man now I really don't have a clue about that. We don't ever try to figure that in the row crop world.

Yeah, I know you’ve said before that you like to keep things real simple.

Troubledouble just wants to be dick but he raises a good question. Why would anyone care about knowing this stuff? Well, here’s a prime example of why. The guy at the seed store is more often than not going to be concerned with selling you a continuous supply of bagged inputs to solve your problems. The dark soil you see in my picture and the dark granules in the bag of chit he’s selling you is the same thing. Both are adding negatively charged particles to the soil for the positively charged nutrients to bond to, etc. The seed store man is perfectly fine with selling you all the black dirt in a bagged form. It definitely does not benefit him for us all to make our own for free….and it certainly doesn’t benefit him if we all begin to use our inputs like fertilizer more efficiently. Remember again, I made this black soil by doing no more than broadcasting seed/fert and mowing. He’s trying to sell you the solution to your problems in a bag and I’m trying to sell it to you in the form of knowledge of soil science. “Just keep disking in the lime and fert” he says and “Continue to keep it simple”…….. Hmmm……Yeah.

You've already stated that you fertilize at planting time. How much, if any, lime have you added since starting this method?

Once but you can’t just look at how much one person has had to add something and compare it apples to apples with what someone else may have added. Remember that soils with higher clay contents hold nutrients much better to begin with than sandy soils. What you can look at though is the improvement in your own plot over time. As an example, lets look at my K use over the last few years (potash).

Back when I tilled, I didn’t have this build up of dark organic matter you see in the pic. To put it another way, I didn’t have the reserve of negatively charged ions that I have now. Therefore, when I added in positively charged nutrients like K (potash)…there wasn’t much there for it to bond to. My soil tests would go from around 60 lbs of K up to 110 or so…and then right back down to the basement by the next planting. As a comparison, this year when I tested, my K levels were 220 lbs per acre and the last time I added potash was in the early spring. It didn’t call for any at planting. Because I’ve added in all of the negatively charged OM to my soil, I’m holding onto all of the positively charged nutrients better now. They have something to bond to. This includes Ca or lime. I’ve brought in lime once this past spring to correct the bottoming out of my Ca that had occurred during the tillage years. I actually waited an extra year before doing so to give this OM layer time to build. In other words, I didn’t spread it until I had built something to hold it.

Here is the brochure for “Hydra Hume”. Look at the bottom where it describes how it works physically and see if it doesn’t sound very similar to all the stuff you’ve probably read me type over and over on these threads. Yeah, I guess you could buy all of that in a bag 40 lbs at a time or you could do it for free and build tons of it by actually doing less than you probably do now. Keep it simple and keep it dumb and someone will continue to sell you your solution in a bag.

http://www.helenachemical.com/products/PDF/92205HydraHumeCrop.pdf

So, you've limed once since adopting this method? How long have you been doing this method? How long had it been since the last liming? I may have missed it, but how many tons did you add? How much fertilizer do you put out when you plant?

CNC I will say you're the dick here if anybody is. You want to call me out well fine. I consult and sell Ag inputs on over 50,000 acres of farmers who actually feed the country and their families on thousands of acres each year. Keep up your great food plot work you idiot. I was gonna give you some hydra Hume to try but you pissed that away. Farming is simple. Technology has changed. As far as you concern me we'll you don't! Good luck with your "thatch" BS. Dipschit

Yeah, I figured one that was going to strike a nerve. Its funny how now your Mr. Big Wig but when I ask you a simple question like how this chit works…..You come back with an answer like a rub lime slime commercial. “We use it and it works great for us!!” You don’t want people truly understanding. You just want them to keep coming back for another load of chit.

I got plenty of guys who use it thank you. You got a major problem there buddy so keep running your mouth Pal. I'm out. Can't waste time on a moron like you

Right back at you

CNC, you never addressed my original post, other than name calling (you can insert your pic. of the baby crying here)…but serious question, you obviously know more about dirt, than most of us care to know. But in the big picture, what exactly is that doing for you? Or in other words, how does your knowledge make you a more successful hunter or habitat manager?

by the way, I just laugh when people on a talk forum start name calling, so feel free to continue if it makes you feel better.

Well, I suppose it makes me a more well rounded “consultant” or “manager” or whatever label you want to give it….who understands what things I need and what things I don’t or why I’m using this tool/method versus using that one. If you don’t truly understand soils then you don’t truly understand how a plant grows or how plant communities grow. In order to really see the Big Picture as you say, then you need to see that the soil, the plants, and the animals are truly all one.

People spend all kinds of time and money on food plots these days with no real idea “why” other than its what the guy at the feed store said to do or its what everyone else is doing, etc…I guess if I didn’t know this stuff then I’d keep on hauling in load after load of lime that’s not necessary…I’d keep pouring on bag after bag of potash…..I’d keep going to the hunting club for weekends prior to the actual planting weekend to spray and disk and cultipack, etc. I'd keep doing all kinds of stuff that's not necessary and inefficient.

Long-term, knowing is saving me a lot of time and money as well as making my plot better and better.

Blumsden!......Welcome back man. Haven't seen you on either forum in a while. I was just about send out the search party thread. How's your plots doing?

TD…..While the chit is still freshly on the fan, let me add one more thing to our discussion on the darker colored topsoil and why you want to know about organic matter. There’s a reason that folks answer questions like you’ve just seen with nothing more than “Keep disking in the lime and fert!” It’s because when you keep disking the hell out of a plot, then you keep its holding capacity for nutrients at the lowest level it could possibly be. This is due to you speeding up the decomposition rates so much that the OM burns up. If you do decide to disk then you want to do like you see Furflyin describing in his threads and just barely break the soil surface. My soil when I was disking, disking, disking…had less than 0.5% organic matter. For those of us with sandy soils, we don’t even really have a holding capacity when all of the OM is gone. With no clay there is no other negative charges in the soil to hold the positively charged nutrients other than the organic matter. So when you go dump a ton of lime on it or 300 lbs of 13-13-13…..there’s nothing there to hold onto them. Therefore, they just quickly leach away and you’re back at the feed store again and again getting another load. Do you see how this repetitive cycle is great for the man selling the stuff to you? Do you think he is going to offer you advice that will change that cycle? No, he’s not going to tell you how to build organic matter for free, he’s going to sell it to you in a bag along with your fert and lime. I'm sure this is not all seed folks but there are for sure those who will. Its up to you to "know".

Troubledouble….I enjoy helping other folks with this stuff even though there is some backlash against it. I know I come off condescending a lot times but most of it is truly not intended and is just a downfall of my writing style I suppose. Some of it is intended though and that’s mostly just to keep the popcorn popping. This stuff really is simple even if it doesn’t sound like it at first. What’s the harm in expanding your knowledge base?

Been on vacation for awhile. Plots looking real good, lush. I see nothing has changed while i took my hiatus, you still at war with the anti no-tillers, i see.

Yup…….I don’t know which side is more stubborn…..me or them. I feel like I may be starting to wear them down though.

I started planting this field as a plot around 6-7 years ago. When I first started planting the field I had it tested and the pH was 6.9. The field had never been limed that I know of. It was an old pasture that hadn't been used in a number of years. The reason the pH showed that high is because over the years a layer of OM had built up across the top horizon of soil from all the weeds/grasses and it had a higher holding capacity in that upper horizon. Same as what you see in my last photo. As the plants died and decomposed each year, they recycled the Ca into that top horizon and it was held in higher concentrations there. What I didn't realize at the time, was that when you got down into the soil below the level that the OM was having an effect, then the pH dropped to 5.1....I know this because I just had a test ran on my subsoil.

Well, I came along and started breaking the old field up and killing out all of the bermuda grass. In doing so, I began to burn up all of that OM that had built up in the pasture. My pH began dropping as well because my holding capacity for Ca was dropping. Another way to think about it is that Ca is no longer as concentrated in the soil. After a few years, my pH had dropped from 6.9 to 5.1. Ca levels had fallen from 1100 lbs per acre down to 300 lbs..It was void of OM and therefore had no holding capacity for the Ca.

I began turning my soil around a few years ago by rebuilding the OM. I purposely went through an extra growing season with a pH in the low 5's because I knew the rye and crabgrass would still grow. Again, I wanted to build up plenty of OM before bringing in Ca by the ton. The past spring I brought in 2 tons/ac....When I sent in my test this year it showed my pH already coming up from 5.1 to 5.9.... It had only been a few months so we'll see how the spring test looks. Once I get my pH back up, I won't be bringing in large amounts of lime for the purpose of getting my pH out of the gutter. The dark soil you see in my picture is able to hold it and recycle it the same as it had been doing when I first started.

Short answer on fert....I put out 50 lbs of 34-0-0 at planting.

Let me stop there for now because I'm about to go hunting. My hunting club is ironically to the south of me but still in the north zone so season is still open.

Nope, I just ordered new 24" disc to replace my 22's. I feel I need to cut the soil a little deeper and break the hard pan. Plots look great and thank goodness I covered the seed. The 100's of doves and other birds along with the rodents who fed on my plots daily would have decimated my seed bank before the rains had a chance to make them jump.
If my seed would have been on top of the ground I'd still be looking at brown thatch.

I would guess that your OM is still there. You just mixed it all up. Take your bucket example. If you filled your bucket 75% full with low ph soil, then topped it off with a neutral ph soil. Then you mixed it together. The neutral ph soil is still there, but won't show up as high on your soil sample. Just because you cut it in doesn't mean that it's gone as soon as it's cut in.

CNC, I mentioned this before, but I guess you missed it. I don't, nor have I ever gotten any advice from the person or company I buy seed from. The guy I buy from enters the quantity of seed I request and places the order. Same with my fertilizer guy. Everything I've learned has been from self education (learning from my own observations), Quality Whitetails or what I've read on this and other deer hunting forums.

I'm bored with this conversation, but will say that I understand why YOU do what you do on YOUR property in YOUR location. If your soil sucks, I guess you have to step outside the box to create better plots. For me, I don't need to change what I'm doing. Our plots meet or exceed our expectations each year on a relatively tight budget. There are several major concerns I would have going with a throw and mow that would greatly outweigh the few dollars an acre I "might" save. So, I will continue to disc and plant because it works very well for us and has since my great grandfather started farming our property in the late 1800's.

How many years have you been doing the throw and mow method? Did you plant the same stuff in the summer when you were disking, as you do now?

That thinking might work N2T if there wasn't such a thing a decomposition. But unfortunately, organic matter has a shelf life and that depends on how you manage it. The soil tests then showed 0.5% OM....the soil tests now show 3.5% OM (or there about, I forget the exact number right now) The CEC or holding capacity then showed 2.1....now its 5.9.

This makes two full years now. Yes, same basic plantings.

Was your %OM just taken at the surface?

It's not decomposing in a years time. Our CEC is going up, also.

Without a doubt dude....There's no way it would have worked.

Going to repost this pic for reference N2T…..

I took one sample from the darker layer you see at a depth of 3-4 inches and another sample from the subsoil below the darker layer. The subsoil in the bottom of the pic is sand that runs down to a depth of 50 inches where it hits a semi solid clay layer. Let’s not get too hung up on one aspect of the big picture that we forget about the others too. Organic matter is only part of good functioning soil. Do you see how the soil “structure” is now beginning to change in the top couple inches of soil? That structure is what allows water to pour down into your soil when it comes a hard rain instead of ponding and running into the ditch. That structure is what allows oxygen to get to the soil roots...helps prevents compaction, etc. That structure will continue to build down into the profile if I don’t destroy it. As you can see, it just doesn’t rebuild itself overnight. If I could get the deer to let some radishes grow then it would really help with that process as well.

Have you tried to keep the deer out? We put up white string, pie plates, and a wind chime. I know it sounds crazy, but it's worked for us. We plant the first or second week of September and leave the deterrents up until the week of bow season.

CNC, when did you take that picture?

Yeah, I've tried scarecrows and tin foil and such but the deer here on my test plot don't seem to care too much. I guess it being here at my home, they're just too use to human stuff sitting around. They walk up at night all around my cars and everything else in my yard.

Yesterday.

Looks like the depth of the disc. Maybe it helped boost your method.

Meh, kinda sparse and what did come up doesn't look heavily browsed. Almost like its unpalatable to them but if your happy then I'm happy and that's what counts here.

Thought for the day,"why does everything grow fine in nature, without having to use manmade fertilizer and without liming"? My neighbor, when i used to live in a subdivision, would always bag his grass clippings. He was always fertilizing his yard. I never fertilized mine, and it looked better than his, and IMO, it was because i fed mine every time i cut it. I didn't bag my clippings. To me, its silly to bag your clippings, that will feed your lawn. I also, mulched my leaves, he bagged his.

Thought for the day,"why does everything grow fine in nature, without having to use manmade fertilizer and without liming"? My neighbor, when i used to live in a subdivision, would always bag his grass clippings. He was always fertilizing his yard. I never fertilized mine, and it looked better than his, and IMO, it was because i fed mine every time i cut it. I didn't bag my clippings. To me, its silly to bag your clippings, that will feed your lawn. I also, mulched my leaves, he bagged his.

Mine is sure enjoying the warm weather

You bring up a good point N2T…….At this point, my organic matter layer is about the same depth as a set of disks would probably run. So if I have OM that deep already without doing anything other than mowing….is it necessary to disk in your OM?

Pretty plot bigt.....Is that cereal rye?

You guys are awesome…..You're like the perfect color men or sidekicks to set up the next slide.

So what Doyle here was saying is “Hey wait….That field isn’t grazed to the dirt! The deer must not like it” Look at this pic of my test field….same cereal rye mix, etc. If you look at the base of every plant you’ll see that every plant has been grazed. Healthy soil makes for strong, resilient plants that are capable of withstanding grazing pressure while still continuing to put out new growth. Same holds true in the summertime when you're trying to grow beans and such. Healthy soil makes for healthy browse tolerant plants.

Your going a little far with the awesome comments but thanks. Your control plot still doesn't look very thick and lightly browsed, maybe low deer numbers I don't know. Now, here is a pic of some wheat I planted a few weeks ago. Some of the field was lightly disced and some of it untouched. The same amount of seed was spread over the entire field but only the disced portion has really begun to take.

Yeah, that’s not at all what I’m showing to do Doyle. That is top sewing wheat on top of hard bare soil.

The technique I’m showing involves broadcasting seed onto a top layer of organic matter like potting soil and then covering it over with a layer of straw….

Got some clover and rape mixed with it too

So you reposted a picture you took two days ago?

That's a good mix......

Seriously......That's why you asked that question??

No that's not why I asked the question. You said you reposted the picture for N2Turkeys. I thought I remembered you posting the picture last year. I'm too tired to argue with you about when you took a picture.

My bad. I thought you were about to give me a hard to time for posting a pic twice or something. Its a recent soil profile pic. I've taken a few along the way to show the changes over time so you have very likely seen me post another that looked similar. The soil structure is the main change in the most recent one. I think my OM may be an inch or so deeper as well. I'll see if I can put them all together in one post to show the changes.

If doing your method for only 2 years yielded those results on OM, why was it not deeper when it was pasture for all those years?

I’m not for sure exactly how deep the OM layer may have been back in the beginning. Its not something that even crossed my mind back then. I just hooked up the disk and went to plowing. I suspect though, that it wasn’t too different than what I have now. Reason being…..a lot of what is going to effect the depth of that layer is the rooting depth of the plants your growing. A lot of what is creating that black layer of dirt is the rotting root systems of my previous crops. This field was mostly just bermuda grass and weeds back then. I’ve got the ability to now plant different deep rooted plant species that will take larger amounts of biomass deeper….things like the radishes for instance or sorghum. On a side note to this as well….other than the depth of the OM layer there’s also the concentration of the OM to consider. You want that layer to increase from 2% to 3% to 4%...etc. How fast and how much that increases depends on how you manage it.....how fast it decomposes.

When our fields dry out, I'm gonna dig in mine to see what they look like. When you were discing, did you ever dig in yours to see what it looked like?

Here is kind of like a time lapse of the last couple years.....

I can't stress enough the importance of that "structure" you see forming in the last pic.

Minus the thin layer of sand at the surface, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the top and bottom pic. May be the lighting or something.

I see a lot of diffeence, from deeper roots, to surface OM.

In the top pic there is no organic matter. The tests reflected this as well as they tested at less than 1% OM…..The middle pic has formed an organic matter layer of a couple inches…..The third pic shows the organic matter layer extending down to approx 6-8 inches. It varies a little. The current tests reflect that change testing 3.5% OM.

That first pic is not sand on top of organic matter.....Its where any clay that was present in the top couple inches separated and left pure sand on top. The soil below is my sandy clay mix. It does have a little bit of clay content and that's what gives it an orangish look.

N2T....Do you not see the structure change in the top couple inches of the last pic?

The top pic looks dark, deeper than the bottom pic. I notice the bottom pic has a different planting. Is that corn?

You slay me dude.

What part is slaying you?