coyote rant

If you kill one another will take its place.

every time i read that i say , BS way of thinking !!! . a live coyote is a eating coyote . a live coyote is a reproducing coyote . i also think the people that say that is ignorant ( i did not say stupid ) of how predator populations work .

by not killing coyotes you're allowing three things at least .

you're allowing that coyote to keep right on killing and feeding

you allow it a chance to reproduce .

you allow the coyote population to expand outward .

if no one killed coyotes i wonder how many thousands of coyotes would be added to the population each year . course the population at some point would crash but only after the food source had crashed

to me it's odd as hell how in places we can kill to many doe's but won't kill enough coyotes . we as hunters in ALABAMA could control the coyotes and no one will ever convince me other wise .

lol ,,, be sunday evening before i'm back in here to reply.

I agree you got to kill them when you see them no matter what.

If I see one....it dead....

Yotes are territorial. If you kill one, another will take its place in that area.


The reason Alabama hunters and hunters in general won't kill more coyotes is because they can't brag about them and they don't have antlers. There's nothing to stroke the ego.

I shoot them, or attempt to shoot them at all cost, when I see them.

But coming from the mind of a primarly turkey hunter if we were to eradicate coyotes, what would happen with the little varmints that destroy turkey nest?

I shoot every one I can. On the other hand. If you are in to cattle and you see yotes but they aren't bothering your herd you might not want to. Because you might get one in to replace it that will. Just my .02c. I am all for kill them all tho. But I have experienced the leave em alone if they aren't hurting you situation. Or at least my perception of it.

It appears that the mentality is to allow them to live so they reproduce and over-populate & wipe out the food sources faster so their population crashes due to starvation & disease?

I kill every one I see, and when one takes it's place I'll kill it as well. There has to be a limited number reached somewhere, but I assure you there's no limit to how many I'm willing to kill.

I do like the parvo-puppy idea....

I'm not sure that coyotes eat the varmints that destroy nests. Yotes prey mainly on rabbits, fawns, poults, mice, ect. I've never heard of one eating a raccoon or opossum or skunk. The only way I know of to adequately control predators is by periodic and consistent trapping. You will never shoot enough of them to negatively impact the population. Honestly, I'm not gonna let a yote walk thinking he may eat a coon and thereby save a nest.

Every yote needs to die. Our rabbits and mice were kept in check by hawks, snakes, and foxes prior to the 1970's and 1980's when huge influx of coyotes crossed the Mississippi river into the southeastern states.

Dr. B

I think most of them crossed the river in the back of a pickup.

I had a vet tell me the parvo puppy deal works. Gets carried back to the den and gets in the soil. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

Not sure you comprehend how many coyotes are on your place and neighboring land. You couldn't possibly kill enough (by shooting the ones you see) to even remotely make a dent. And I dang sure ain't gonna ruin a good deer hunt by shooting (loud noise of a gun) at a stupid coyote. I hate those things as bad (or worse) than ANYBODY, but folks who "shoot every one they see" ain't doing nothing but screwing up a good deer hunt.

I disagree by 1000000xxxxxxxxx

Does killing every deer you see put a dent in the deer population?

if you do it ever year ,,, yes !!!! same with coyotes.

That's my point!

nope , that's wrong . i've had shots very near me and the deer i was watching would only raise their head . i've killed coyotes and dogs and deer came through . i.ve killed deer and have more deer come through .

i wonder how many buck fawns are killed by the coyotes you let walk in it's life time and how many good hunts that messes up for you in the future .

you can't shoot enough coyotes ??? who says and where the facts to back that up ???

Not shooting coyote(s) when you have the opportunity has the potential to ruin many hunts.

Coyotes (Predators) and Deer (prey) have always been at odds (consider Texas for example). If left alone (without human intervention) they will strike a balance.
Since man does have an impact, it is up to us (hunters) to intervene (manage) both species (conservation). Keep in mind too, coyotes also have an impact on turkeys. If you hunt turkeys and deer, passing up a coyote in the fall has the potential to eliminate a tom turkey before spring arrives (they do come to turkey calls - first hand experience knowledge!).

I remember when the debate was "yes, coyotes are too killing fawns" VS "coyotes are getting a few fawns here and there, but they are not having a significant impact". The studies and research has been done - coyotes ARE having a significant impact on fawn recruitment.

Here is what another state is saying to hunters in it's state;
Hunters Help Control Coyotes and Save Our Deer

Anyone aware of the big multi year study done on deer & coyotes in SC? The findings were eyeopening!!
Are Coyotes Impacting Deer? USDA Study

In this first phase of the study researchers did nothing to the coyotes. They did not shoot or trap any of the coyotes. In the 2nd phase the researchers did shoot and trap coyotes, and the fawn recruitment went up. A few google searchers and you can read a lot of info on that study, and it is very educational.

Coyotes Impact Deer in Southeastern North America

Save a Deer - Shoot a Coyote
Save a Turkey - Shoot a Coyote
Save a Quail - Shoot a Coyote


SCDNR:
"Also, coyotes are a recent addition to the landscape and are another piece of the puzzle. SCDNR has recently completed a major study with researchers at the Savannah River Site investigating the affects coyotes are having on the survival of deer fawns. Cumulative data through the first 3 years of the study indicated approximately 70 percent total fawn mortality with coyotes being responsible for approximately 80 percent of these mortalities. If these findings even moderately represent a statewide situation, this "new mortality factor" is clearly involved in the reduction in deer numbers. This is especially true when combined with extremely liberal deer harvests that have been the norm in South Carolina. The last 3 years of the study were for the purpose of determining if reducing coyote density through trapping increases fawn survival. It seems logical that if coyotes are preying on fawns, then significantly reducing coyote densities should increase fawn survival. Over the course of the 3 year coyote "control" phase, 474 coyotes were trapped/killed on the study areas. Overall, results showed only modest increases in fawn survival following these efforts with an overall average of about 39 percent increase in survival. Also, trapping seemed to help in some years but have little effect on predation in others. This "year" effect may have something to do with the availability of coyote food sources that may change in abundance annually. Given these results and the difficulty and high cost of coyote control, it seems apparent that making adjustments to how we manage deer, particularly female deer, is more important now that prior to the colonization of the state by coyotes."

One of the few rules I have is that anyone who passes up an opp to kill a yote on a hunt dosen't get a return invite.....

Coyotes are also like squirrels....they breed off population density...they lower the population gets the more pups they have....

That is true, no doubt...

BUT, the dead ones do not have pups!

The ones you don't get though just end up having that many more pups. You guys are just pounding sand if you think you are changing anything by shooting every coyote you see. Someone was comparing shooting every deer to shooting every coyote. That's apples to oranges. Deer have 1-2 offspring a year in most situations. Coyotes have 5-15 depending on how much food they get. Take out one yote and you just make the other ones more healthy and more prolific producers of young pups because there is more available food to them. The whole cycle is driven by the amount of food or prey available. We have little impact on the cycle by merely shooting what we see. Even the impact we see though trapping is only very short lived.

First of all, in alabama a coyote will not have 15 coyotes, no matter how good the prey. About 8 is the max. i have seen, and i have trapped 191 coyotes in a single year. I have trapped all over alabama. Shoot everyone you see, it cannot hurt anything. But to trully help your deer heard you MUST takeouy 80% plus , every year on coyote population! IF you quit after say year 3, the population can increase to the point of being more than when you started. I have trapped for lots of high end deer managers, cattle farmers, and biologists. The main thing people dont understand is the COST! If you want coyotes gone you must hire a professional trapper! Some jack leg, that thinks he can trap will not do you any good! You must also pay good money to get rid of them. Most great trapper charge 150-250 set-up fee and 50 a coyote, also mileage. So a flat fee of 100 dollars a coyote is about average. Now thats for a TRUE professional, no BillBob the want-abe-trapper. I quess my rant is everyone wants coyotes gone, but they dont want them gone bad enough to pay a REAL trapper 100 dollars a piece for them! Bottom line if you want coyotes gone get the best you can find to trap them, pay the money, and you can get them gone.

I'd agree with this. Hiring one to eliminate and/or severely curtail-control your coyotes and other predators is part of serious deer management and isn't a now-and-then thing.

I only wish i could get clients to understand that. Most say well old Billy-Bob caught 14 or 15 last years and he doesnt charge 100 dollars each! The thing i HATE most is coming to a place after some jack-leg has tried to catch coyotes on the cheap! It makes it harder for me to catch the educated coyotes. If someone doesnt truly no what they are doing they can make coyotes extremely hard to trap. THERE is a difference in a fur trapper and an ADC professional. Coyotes are not that hard to catch IF you know what you are doing

It doesn’t really surprise me that someone who traps coyotes for money believes that the best thing for everyone to do is to hire a professional and pay him $100 per coyote to trap an endless supply of them into perpetuity. Is that really our best long-term solution to predator management? How much prime fawning habitat could you build with all those $100 dollar bills?

It doesnt suprise me how someone like you would know nothing about true coyote management! You must do both to be effective. I know far more about coyote trapping than someone like you! I have been trapping 100 plus coyotes a year for over 20 years. Building fawn habitat is great, but without trapping it is not going to do much good. Trapping is the BEST long-term solution to managing predators! As most serious land managers know IF you want to hurt a coyote population YOU must hit them hard and take out 80% plus of the coyote population. This can be a costly . I also use PVS-14 nightvision, lazers, and Aquilla 6 nightvision scopes. My clients get what they pay for with me! The fact is YOU are only quoting what you read and have no real experience with ADC work. Their is no endless supply of coyotes, that you cannot stop from killing your fawns. You just have to find thr right guy that can trap and pay him or swap him some hunting rights, to kill coyotes.

So how long do you recommend that a land owner keep trapping coyotes?

How long do you plant food plots? Its an own going process. To win the war against coyotes you have to cripple the amount of coyotes. Most high - end hunting operations have ADC people on staff. IF you want results you have to be willing to have a full-time predator management plan in place. Think of predator management as partof the overall land management practice. Just like spring and fall foodplots, supplemental feeding, trophy rocks, habitat management they all go together. And buy the way i dont always charge 100 dollars a coyote. ADC people must figure in time ,mileage, and cost! If i have to drive 10 miles it maybe 75 dollars, if i have to drive 50 it will be 100 dollars each, anyone that THROWS out a price over the phone , without looking at the land owners property is NOT a true professional! Each job must be studied and price accordingly.

Coyote management

So you trap for somebody who owns 1000 acres in lowndes county but the surrounding properties do not. Please tell me again how you are going to eradicate the yotes ?

Your not. I usually deal with people with larger tracts of land , or an co-op of people that control large places. You can reduce the population on a thousand acres, but they will come back if you dont trap them. Its very hard to eradicate coyotes on small land tracks, but they can be controlled if you take 80% plus off the tract. Sure more will move in but then you just take them out to. No one ever said this could be done on the cheap!!!

10-4. If folks got the money and you've got the skill them more power to ya!

Part of you are missing the boat. Controlling predation is and will always be a multi pronged attack. You have to have good fawning habitat, trap consistently and hope for a period of predator swamping (AL doesn't have in a lot of places).

Trapping is a program just like food plots, feeding or anything else serious managers do. It is VERY time consuming and expensive to pay a "good" trapper. Much better to learn from a good one like I am

So are you saying that there's an endless supply of coyotes to trap or not?

The point is not to give up. Kill every coyote you can. Dont buy in to CNC veiws of doing nothing! Their are several GREAT trapper that you can pay to teach you to trap. Clint Locklear does a great job of teaching , personal 1 on 1 trapping. 3 or 4 days for 800 -900 dollars is not a bad deal IF you are a quick learner. Im 41 and i have been trapping coyotes since i was 16 years old. I read every book i can get my hands on about coyote. I also read everything i can find on coyote info. Point is you are NEVER to old to learn something new. If you have 1000 acres in Lowndes county , find a good trapper, get a permit to hunt with nightvision, if you have hogs trade some Nite time hog hunting for some coyote trapping? dont ever give -up and be like some that would pull there skirts up over their heads and run away from the problem. Talk to you neighbors and start killing and trapping those coyotes and never stop or give up the fight= that what PETA lovers of coyotes want you to do!

As a matter of fact, pretty much yes. In most places with coyotes once you remove a pack or the dominant dogs neighboring packs will move in. It is an ongoing cycle. It may take a bit but it will not take long.

Do you guys really believe that intense predator trapping is a feasible long term solution to controlling coyotes? How many landowners will spend the money? How many landowners will spend the time? How many landowners will continue to intensely trap for periods of 5-10 years? How much of an impact will it really have over the next decade or half century? Have we slowed them down yet? This is not a realistic solution that you should tell the general land owner as a means to deal with coyotes.

What you are advising land owners to do is to greatly reduce predator populations and hold prey populations at a much higher rate than the habitat is naturally supporting. Opening up social holes in the coyote population on a property and greatly increasing the prey species will insure that surrounding coyotes will just flock to fill these social holes in the land of milk and honey. With prey species amped up beyond normal conditions, it even opens the door for more coyotes to come back in than you originally had.

The best long term solution is to accept the predator and prey cycle and manage to keep things in balance by curtailing predator impacts rather than thinking you can eliminate them. The best long term solution to curtailing the impacts of predators is through establishing proper habitat and limiting doe harvest.

Shooters,

You have mentioned a few times about trying to remove 80% of the coyotes. I realize that different locations have different populations of coyotes. If you had 1000 acres along the Lowndes county and Wilcox county line, do you have any idea how many coyotes would be about 80%. I'm just trying to get a ballpark idea of how many coyotes would need to be removed annually.

I understand what CNC is saying but I agree with you that the removal of every coyote possible can't do anything but help. The amount that are removed will be directly related to how much you are helping the situation.

CNC you are the typical type of person that like to pull his skirt over his head and say" o theirs just nothing we can do, but except it"! Real men stand -up and fight! How many land owners will spend the time? Most true land managers can spend the time to trap coyotes. You must be a coyote loving PETA member! Social holes and accepting coyote predator pray cycles are for people like YOU that do not have a clue what they are talking about!!! You ONLY know what you have read and have no real experience in the real world of coyote trapping. I on the other hand have work with biologist, farmer, and land managers and know that you can take -out 80% plus of a coyote population and make a BIG difference in fawn predation.A relistic solution is to learn,add controll the problem. Dont do like CNC advises and pull a skirt up over you eyes! Find a trapper make him a friend, pay for some lessons, hire him , or just swap him some hunting rights. Point dont giving up! Listen to biooligist and trapper on here and get some help = advice and lets ALL do what we can to elimanate = controll the coyote problem.

I think people like me and you can agree to disagree and move on, but you wont get ahead or anywhere arguing with "Shooters". Just throwing that out there. Now this is my opinion no facts to back it..

Steiner, that a hard questin to answer. How is the deer population? Are their chicken house around? How about cattle farmers? Is it open country or woods? Lots of things come in to play. CNC has a point on the fawn habitat. But i HATE the idea of" just accept it and go on". 1000 acres of cattle country maybe 10-15 coyotes. 1000 acre of cutovers, hunt club land with feeders, and woods may very well hold more coyotes. Plus the pack size of the coyotes and the number of packs in the area. Short answer is no way to really tell with out Stepping foot on it! Just dont give up is my personal RANT!

You just dont agree with me cause i dont like dog deer hunting! I hate coyotes, and disagree with anyone that has CNC veiws of do nothing and accept it!

so what you are saying i should kill less so the coyotes can get fat ??? BS !!!!

your thinking is wrong , your saying if i take out x amount of coyotes their food source will increase and allow more coyotes . the damn things are getting all they need now and a surplus so increasing the food source aint gonna change a thing at this point . if the food sources were low you might be right .

your way of thinking helps the coyotes and hurts the hunter. a few doe days a year might be ok with you but not with me , been there done that .

as said before a dead coyote don't eat and it don't make more , simple as that .

Frankie…..Below is a graph illustrating the relationship between predator and prey and is often used in teaching population dynamics. Looking at the graph….What happens to the predator population when the prey population increases?

problem is your graph is comparing snowshoe hares to lynx. Hares are cyclic....deer ain't.

I don't see your point Troy. All I'm trying to show is that predator and prey populations are directly tied to one another. As far as coyote populations go around here, we are really concentrating more on the amount of small game present representing our prey species than we are deer anyways.....as far as speaking to what supports the majority of their population.

While we’re looking at the graph, look at one more thing. Notice in the places where the prey populations peak out at their highest levels. What happens immediately following all of those big spikes in prey populations? The population crashes, right? So you are going to pay someone $100 per coyote (or predator in general) to try and get rid of them and then you pay them another $100 each to try and fight off the hoard that keeps coming in to fill the void forever? Really? Look at it this way, if we have prey populations peaked out then you can rest assured that the predator line on the graph is constantly trying to climb steeply upwards. What happens on the day you get tired of paying $100 per predator? Does the outcome look good for your prey population after that?

my point is that a graph of coyote vs deer wouldn't look anything like that. Deer ain't cyclic, unless yer counting lows in the 20s to highs in the 60s till now. Yotes have done nothing but increase.

a 1960 to present graph would show a yote line rising steeply to the right(expanding numbers) with no relation to the deer population.

Frankie, BhamFred, you guys are correct. CNC doesnt know what he is talking about, he is only using graphs to show his point of view. CNC has no real time Expereince in trapping. The 100 dollars a coyote is on the high end, but considering that gasoline is 3.60 a gallon and it getting to be hot weather is not always that bad of a deal. Many states like Utah have a 50 dollar bounty on coyotes. Alabama cattlemens association , members in some countys have 20-25 dollar bountys. Just because CNC thinks 100 dollars is unreasonable doent mean its the wrong thing to do. As i said before their are many other options. You can talk to a Gamewarden, biologist, DNRC, or forester and someone will beable to get you a good professional trapper. I think Charlie or someone on here was talking about a county= DNCR trapping work shop. Point is why give up, unless CNC is a PETA lover of coyotes? You can get lots of professional trappers to swap hunting rights for coyote trapping! 100 dollars is just a high end number i put out there, but if i have to drive 100 miles to check traps its not unrealistic. As i have said before some trapper charge a set-up fee or 150-250 dollars, i just work out a flat rate= per coyote. You dont listen to CNC and PETA. Dont listen to them because they would have you pull - a skirt up over your head and do nothing!

No offense meant Troy but I just don’t see how what you’re saying has any bearing on the point I’m trying to make. I’m talking about site specific management of predators going into the future……not a broad landscape look at coyote expansion in the past. I’m not trying to show an actual graph of coyote and deer but rather one that illustrates a basic principle. While coyotes have definitely spread over the last few decades filling up the landscape….their site specific populations can never grow any larger than the number of prey present to support the population. Look at the graph again. There can be no more lynx than there is snow shoe hare to support them. Same with us and yotes. There can be no more coyotes in a site specific area than there is rabbits, mice, etc… to support the populations. Predator and prey populations are directly tied to each other

Yeah don't pay attention to him....he's using graphs and facts.

YOU have no idea what you are talking about, thats the asd part!! You have heard from BhamFred= gamewarden/ Nighthunter= Biologist and several ohers in the know, but you have you might Graphs and Charts! Can you not see the difference in SCDNC studies and the real world? Their are millions of dollars spent on coyotes studies every year. More money is spent on coyote reserch than an other species. Grant Woods and someone from QDMA did a study in georgia on trapping, the results were much more favoratible than the bleck ones that CNC has show on here. Also studies in Utah and Texas show great results from trapping. The FDA has spent millions on coyote resarch and pamplets that show how people can controll coyotes. Many, Many, mant states have government trappers= do you think that they are wasteing their time? CNC has no real world experience in predator controll, he simply uses charts . What you must understand about this is every location =state has different results, so a SCDNC study may not apply to YOUR situation or land! The we cant do anything about it attitude makes me sick! I think CNC is a coyote loving PETA member! I do not disagree about the prey= to predator relation ship. I dp disagree on the YOU cant do anything about it bullcrap!

CNC I understand what your trying to say. Take the Sipsey Wilderness Area within the Bankhead National Forest for instance probaly the lowest deer density I've hunted and I can count on one hand the coyotes I've seen there. But I think predator control is a nessary form of wildlife managment when your trying to make your property the best it can be. We cant all afford the services like shooter and others provide but I'm glad theyre there to teach others and keep doing what theyre doing.

IMO….The difference is in the idea of what is the best our property can be or should be. The idea that is being presented here is selling false hopes long term and is only a short term, very costly means of trying to change things. The moment trapping is stopped, any past gains are completely lost if there is no change in the habitat. The best thing you can do is to manage for a balance between predator, prey, and habitat. If you want more wildlife then the best long term return on your investment comes in the form of habitat improvements. The habitat is the driver for the whole cycle. Increase the productivity of the habitat and you increase the ability to hold more wildlife. Trying to push specific game populations past the natural carrying capacity of the land through intense predator removal is not money well spent for most general purposes.

BULL CRAP!!! The minute you stop trapping coyotes dont run from 20 miles away to come to your property. CNC is trying to twist the facts to make it sound like ONLY habitat munipulation is the only way to go! I agree you need to do both. But everyone is trying to get more deer. So if you want to increase the carrying capacity you must have a predator management plan. You = CNC = have no idea about deer management/coyote removal as a process. You only have what you have read. Here is the problem. Every manager of deer from alabama to texas wants more, thropy deer! High end clubs and pay for hunt have been doing predator management for years. It works but the price is often past on to the customer. Now in alabama= texas style management is being applied to the coyote problem. Texas= as an example has lots of supplimental feeding, so the habitat and carring capacity must be elevated, along with proper coyote control. CNC is making out like trapping is absolutely worthless. You must keep trapping, just like you must keep planting summer and winter plots. Most game managers realize that trapping is just another tool to be used to ELEVATE the hunting game. So you can do like CNC says and JUST improve the habitat and have a normal deer heard, or you can inprove the habitat and do predator control and really see good sized deer numbers increase. So what do yall want? Do nothing and have the same low deer numbers or get busy trapping and have better deer hunting? I think CNC is anti-trapping for some reason. I dont know why. Trapping works but must be done every year just like planting foodplots. Dont give up!! Trap, shoot,and kill every coyote you see!!!

and what i'm saying is i don't want the coyotes eating the deer . why should i let coyotes walk when wolves don't . why do wolves kill them , so they have more food (game) . i want to decide what the deer population is not the coyotes .

another point why are you separating hunters (man) from nature . the way you want to do it the hunters get the left overs . last i checked we are top predator in nature .

You can also use the graph to help understand the first point that I was trying to make about trapping causing the remaining coyotes to become more prolific producers of pups. When you remove a large amount of predators and allow the prey populations to reach those high peaks like on the graph, then the remaining predators are surrounded by a surplus of food. When predators hunt, their success rates are directly tied to the amount of prey present and the amount of competition for that prey. The number of pups that female coyote produces is tied to her prenatal health. Plenty of food equals plenty of pups.

There are two reasons why the predator population lines go up so steeply when prey populations are peaked out……Increase in immigration of new predators filling the void and increased fertility rates. Your $100 bills are paying to increase both.

yep !!!!!

CNC are you high on CRACK???? Professional ADC coyote trappers know when, what time of year to take -out the alfa/ and beta females!!!! You said trapping causes the remain coyotes to become prolific breeders of pups?? You must be HIGH ON CRACK!!! You know nothing about coyote trapping! Only the alpha and sometimes in large packs the beta female are ALLOWED to breed. This means a smart PRO trapper can come in and trap the female with pups and make a significant diffence in the coyote/pup equation. You are correct on somethings but YOUR lack of how valueable trapping is makes me mad as HELL!!! Im not talking about Billy -Bob wantabbee trapper. Im talking about someone that KNOWS that coyotes breed in febuary. Someone that knows about a 63 day gestration period for female coyotes. Im talking about someone that knows that ONLY the alpha and sometimes beta females breed and how to set traps accordingly to target those females. Mark June a great trapper and biologist has wrote books and done reseach on this topic if anyone wants to see for themselves how WRONG CNC really is!To say that trapping does no good is dumb! Coyotes dont breed like rabbits! Read about the alpha/beta female coyote anywhere on the internet an you will see how dumb CNC statement trully is!

One of the places where we have gotten ourselves in trouble with our past coyote management practices over the last couple decades is through too much wide spread doe shooting. I think the state did a good thing this year by reducing doe harvests back to one per day. Realizing that we need to ease up on shooting does will help alleviate some of the impact we see from coyotes.

At the current time, one of the situations where predator trapping does make sense on a short term basis are in areas where the liberal doe harvesting of the past by hunters combined with the impacts of predators have driven the additive mortality rates to such a point that deer herds may need some help recovering. In this situation, greatly limiting doe harvests and intense predator trapping for 1-3 years does have its place. However, once deer populations have recovered and stabilize, then the long term use of intense trapping efforts are not needed. Populations can be managed from that point through informed doe management and habitat enhancements.

yes, i can agree with most of that . Their are place where we need to ease up on doe shooting. But if you are going to trap for 1-3 years why stop? Why not learn to trap then just keep doing it? Would you stop planting food plots? Wouild you say O i have enough deer know i will stop trapping and stop planting spring and summer plots? Doe management and habitat enhancements are great, but why not keep trapping as part of your overall management plan? The truth is we ALL want more! More money, more deer,more guns,and more land to grow bigger deer. Can anyone own here say their isnt something they dont want more of? People want more= better deer hunting. So why not include trapping into your deer management program? Does anyone on here really want less deer?

Coyotes are like herpes. You may have to learn to live with them but you damn sure can do something to control the outbreaks.

You can either adjust your doe harvest according to fawn recruitment rates or you can implement an intense predator trapping program. How do the costs compare to one another?

Cost are not everything! Why not hunt with a H&R single shot rifle with a tasco scope? It would be cheaper! CNC keeps trying to drive home the habitat management point. I fully agree with that. But why not trap as well? Here is an example. You dont want 2 pay a pro trap, ok fine i respect that. But for say 300-900 dollars you can pay a professional to teach you how. Then lots of trappers on ALDEER will help you buy the tools you need so you dont waste money on things you dont need! For 1000 dollars you can buy the know how and the traps and be on the way of doing it yourself. This is also a lifetime investment. How is this wrong? How much bulldozer and tractor work can you do on say 1000 acre to improve habitat for 1000 dolars? My point is knowledge and steel dont disapear, they can be used AND past on to others. Another example= you dont have time to trap them your self. Trade a TRUE professional trapper free hunting rights. You will lose 0 dollars that way! Nothing wrong with adusting doe harvest, but you will be happier with the results, if trapping is done! Raise you hand if you want less deer to hunt?

The problem with this MORE, MORE, MORE type of mentality as it pertains to wildlife, and specifically deer management…..is something called carrying capacity. One major issue that can arise from removing all predators and artificially inflating specific game populations like deer for prolonged periods of time to higher levels than the surrounding habitat would “normally” or naturally support…..is the impact that these higher than the “norm” populations begin to have on the habitat. For example, certain species of plants that would otherwise be present will get wiped out and the entire landscape can be impacted over time as a result. This is just barely scratching the surface of the impacts that trying to manage for more, more, more can have. Managing within our means is the best approach. Again if you want “MORE” then habitat management is by far your best imvestment.

Its will take alot to get to the levels CNC is talking about.Only up north with the harsh winters are plant severly over browsed like this. Once again CNC is quoting something he has read that may or may not apply to OUR alabama deer hunting! Species of plants being wiped out? Now CNC sounds like a hippy tree hugger! Coyotes breeding like rabbits? Peta member??? What CNC is talking about my be possible some where, but is that really going to happen in alabama? I dont think so.I have talked to biologist and land manager, and it take ALOT to severly get over the lands carring capacity in alabama. Unless its a high fence operation what CNC is talking about, once again is just what he has read. The truth is it would be very hard to do in alabama. Nothing wrong with habitat management , but why not reduce the coyotes numbers as well. Unless your a coyote loving PETA member their is no reason not too!

Does looking back at the history of our own deer management practices here in Alabama support your idea that it’s not possible to manage to one extreme or the other here in our state???

No. You can still trap coyotes and make the deer hunting better!

CNC ,,,,,,,,,,,, there is a surplus of food for the yotes at this point .

surplus ,,, means more than they can eat .

so with a surplus , adding more food will change nothing .

we do it your way we got a whole new ball of wax . your way is the boom and bust cycle of nature and i don't see why we sould let that happen .


i'm out of this one !!!!!

Actually, just the opposite. I’m suggesting that you monitor what’s happening on your specific property and use your efforts to help maintain a more even balance across time of all 3 apsects…..predator, prey, and habitat. If you will look back you will notice that I’ve used the word “balance” numerous times. You guys are the ones suggesting that we manage in a “boom and bust” type fashion. You are just suggesting that we try to manage completely for the boom thinking we will never suffer repercussions as a result.

You are the one that started this whole mess , with the dont do anything about the coyote! Now CNC is trying to distract everyone with something else. Im not going to buy into his way of thinking. If you say that not trapping is the right thing to do you are wrong, period! If we reduce the predators and help with the habitat we can better deer hunting. Why do you keep defending the coyote? Are you gay for coyotes? I think if we reduce the coyote population by 80% every year AND improve habitat that the rest will be ok! Who really wants to let the coyotes kill the deer that we could kill ourselves?

CNC

Why would you think that a landowner that spent time and money controlling predators wouldn't be managing their habitat and herd densities. Either you are arguing just to argue or you can't see the forest for the trees.

Coyotes can be controlled to an extent but predator control of any kind must be part of a well rounded property and herd management plan.

I never said that they wouldn't. I said that its not cost effective nor is it a good long term management strategy to try and manage the prey species past a level that represents a "happy medium" or balance between the habitat and the animals. Doing so only leads to other issues that in the long run become just as counter productive as predation. Things such as habitat degradation.



No it doesn't. It's far from a "necessity" for a well rounded property plan. The habitat that surrounds me is mostly for quail hunting. As such it makes prime fawning habitat. There are no professional trappers running around our neighborhood insuring the future of our herd. Most of the landowners in my area are dealing with the issue of what to do with so many does. You guys are just selling a service to most folks that's not needed and the same goals can be accomplished through other means for a much lower cost.

Throwing out Lotka Volterra predator prey relationship graphs doesn't mean you know what all they are used to represent. In this case it was used incorrectly.

That said coyotes are not going to increase numbers past the available food resources, territory availability and mate availability but we do not how extensive that actually is. It is different in every locale. Coyotes can and do eat almost anything from live prey, carion, fruits, nuts, ag crops down to insects. They can live anywhere and mate within and outside their direct species (dogs and wolves). Now, knowing what some of their available resources are, how large do you think the population can get before it starts a downward trend?

CNC , you couldnt be more wrong. If you want to keep argueing i will keep posting till this topic is either shut- down by the moderators or you quit you Idotic posting! I dont care if this topic goes own for 5 years . You are wrong. You have heard from gamewardens and biologist and you still claim trapping is not in the best interset of our deer heard? You must be smoking CRACK! We dont all have the same type of quail habitat you do. The point is you are trying to make out like we are" just sell our services". I call BS on this. Just today i talked to an ALDEER member, and gave him good advice on trapping. I also give free estimates. I am willing to help ANYONE on here with question about coyotes. How many people" just selling there services "do that? CNC is against steel traps and loves coyotes is all i can figure out! Smart deer managers will use all the tools avalable to them, that includes trapping. For you to say that we are selling a service to folks just to make money is untrue. If it was true none of us would be offering free coyote trapping advice.

Then this is an area without a coyote problem. Like I have said before in other coyote discussions. Coyotes are localized problems. Some areas they are a tremendous issue some they are not.

I'm sorry you disagree but I have managed well over 300,000 acres in the southeast and 15,000 in the Midwest, I'm pretty sure I've got a pretty good idea on the matter. Not to mention the research that has been done on the subject, I guess it is wrong too?

By the way, I don't sell any service...

Well then why don’t you post some facts instead of just credentials. We have plenty of deer in my area not because we lack a predator population being present. We have plenty of deer in my area because there is plenty of good habitat present to limit the impact of fawn predation and the property owners have shown some restraint on doe harvesting.

Nighthunter.....I'm really not trying to take this to an @$$hole versus @$$hole type argument like the guys who can't keep from so much name calling. Prove me wrong if you disagree.

I can but they are going to say what I said so I don't see the point. Trapping works, only in the long term. Short term trapping will have zero effect. To have a positive impact the managers harvests must be compensatory. Meaning to have a positive impact on having more harvestable bucks, one would have to compensate by harvesting more does. This is only in areas near CC. If you are way below CC then you can build the population. If you are way above CC then coyotes are no issue.

It wasn't for credentials, only to show that I see it from a broad base not a single property. I am SORRY if that came off the wrong way, it was not my intention.

Pretty good paper here but it discounts both of us to an extent

More on coyotes affecting population.


Research Paper

Some science on this blog I read when it came out.

Linky

Again, localized problem.


Link

Old Texas paper noting coyotes could control deer numbers in low density areas.

Old Texas Paper

Another View

1 More

Hold up Nighthunter......Instead of just posting link after link. Slow up and explain your answer a little. If you notice when I posted the graph, I went into great detail to explain it. What in these links proves me wrong? Where does it say that providing adequate fawning habitat and reducing doe harvests is not a solution to curtailing predator impacts? Where does it prove that we must all have a predator trapping/control program in place in order to have a well rounded management plan?

Let's start with this^^^

In most of these, as I've said coyotes are a localized problem. Not everyone will have to deal with their predation as being a problem. I never said everyone had to have a predator control plan. You can't go find it because I didn't say it.

Shooter you say that it's a never ending process and if you kill coyotes off a property new ones will just replace them every year so you need to be on a trapping program. Let's say you have 15 yotes on a property and kill them all theorhetically couldn't 15 new yotes replace them next year? Hence the need for trapping every year. Why not just not start the process of killing them and just deal with the original 15. I've just got the impression from what you've said that you will never be able to eliminate the yote problem, so why waste money on trapping if they're just gonna be replaced by next year?

^^^^^ Right here is where you said it Nighthunter.

Because if you kill them at the right time you get your fawn precentage to rise. From 30 % is the average from what im reading. You are killing 15, and getting more deer. So next year , hopefully you kill 10 and get 30% more deer. My point has been " why bend over and grab your ankles?" Do something about the problem. I do not see it as wasting you money if , by trapping you increase you fawn production by 30%. If you dont have coyote problems, thats great. I am truly happy for the man that doesnt have coyote problems. Its not like im getting rich trapping coyotes! I would say a great % of people on here have coyote problems or concerns. We spend lots of time talking about it right? A coyote ttached a dog in down town or something like that, just the other day it was on the news? I think we have a coyote problem in large parts of the state. If you have coyote problems , trap them if you dont be happy. If you want more deer the trap the coyotes. All over the internet you can see the advantages of trapping coyotes, so if you have a problem why not correct it? I dont fill that trapping is a waste of money, if you do thats your decesion. If you dont want more deer, or are happy with your current situation the im happy 4 you. But if you want to increase fawn recruitment then trapping is a good thing no?

Now look at the big picture for a minute. I am not saying you are wrong in your thoughts. Hunter harvests and coyote predation are additive mortality. If you are spending time and money on growing deer why allow coyotes to be an additive source of mortality.

Anyway, there is little or no research that shows dense fawning habitat actually increases fawn survival either.

Reducing doe harvest is fine but that seems like right the opposite thing that hunters would want to do...

I am with you on the fawning habitat though. Like I said. It is a multi pronged attacked.

Where does it say everyone needs it?

Nighthunter, you wanted to jump in this pissing match for what reason???

Now this is just my opinion on this so take it for what it's worth. It is a constant fight but you target your fight so it does the most good. You target the coyotes prior and during fawning season. This way you increase fawn survival and run traps when it is a bit cooler. You shoot coyotes you see during the rest of the year then start over.

Because simply shooting one to two does instead of four or five is way easier and less costly for most general hunters or landowners than predator trapping and is a much better long term solution. Do you think most people really want to take the time effort and money it takes to trap? Also, most people who are seriously managing their land for deer probably aren’t concerned with not having to harvest as many does.

Now I'm not sure, I thought this was already solved by some research.

Coyotes do not select does, hunters do. You loose 50%(of the deer predated upon) of your bucks that are born on this gamble. Pretty expensive to me.

BhamFred, Jlbuc10 ask me a question as to why coyote trap and i tryed to answer, silly me right! I have been trapping coyotes for 25 years. Most years i catch 100 plus. I have litterly caught 1000s of coyotes. I only hope that people will realize the help that coyote trapping can do incujuction with the rest of the QDMA type tools.

I retract my earlier statement in this thread... I actually do agree with Shooters.

CNC I don't think your belt goes through all your loops on this subject..

Well.....It sounds like this wouldn't be a good time to tell you about how plowing before planting isn't necessary either.......

Yaw is krazee. Next time you're on a food plot full of does, and it's nearing prime twilight "buck time", go ahead and blast off a shot or two across the field. No seriously, just shoot into the dirt below your stand. According to you, won't hurt nuthin.

I kill every coyote I get a shot at with my bow, and I'd shoot them while squirrel hunting (or some other misc critter hunting), but I simply ain't going to bang a gun at a coyote while I'm deer hunting. You can spout off all the random examples of shots not spooking deer that you want to, it means less than squat to me. I guarantee you've had WAAAAAYYY more times when every deer in sight turned inside out after a shot.

We are free to disagree on this, not a hill I'd die on....I just don't believe you could kill enough to matter. Ain't mad at you if you think otherwise, I just wouldn't want to lease land with you. Again, I am NOT a coyote sympathizer, I absolutely loathe those %$^$##$@s, I wish I could fly over my property and drop a poison cloud on it that would kill every last one of them.

And the previous 3 pages of pissing matches is worthless. Doesn't matter who's right, there ain't a hunting club that I know of who'd pay money (or could if they wanted to) to trap coyotes. I love the idea, but I couldn't pay several hundred dollars (my hypothetical share) to pay a trapper. Remember we aren't talking about an ideal world here, most of us are in leases with a handful of other guys, there just aren't the resources to be THAT professional.

im all ears or I guess eyes.

ikillbux, their are LOTS of hunting clubs that pay for trappers to trap coyotes. Some simple just let the trapper have a FREE membership! Look at is this way, you have 7 people on 1000 acres. You make a deal with a good trapper, that has the SAME idea on deer managemnet as you do. Now you have 8 people on 1000 acres. Is that 1 more person on 1000 acres really going to hurt the club? I have worked for cash, club membership, and even for guns! I get what your saying. in an ideal world part! I am willing to give trapping advice for free. As far as what traps to buy and so own. I simply was angered by the fact that CNC claimed about trapping doing no good! A person can read books, watch you tube, and pay for trapping leasons, so why not try to catch coyotes if you have the time? I mainly hire out to game managers and club members that dont have the time but have the money. CNC tryed to make me out to be some greedy coyote merchenary, only after you guys money. Thats simply not true. If you guys have questions that I can answer I will be willing to answer them? I have 25 years of coyotes catching experience, and 1000s of coyotes caught. I hope this help people to understand that YOU can control the coyotes and your deer management desires and not the other way around!

Actually, that is a good idea Shooters.

thats funny, I don't care who you are.....

You guys would be hell in a belittling contest……. but your ability to back up your side of the argument with much more than anything other than belittling is pretty lacking.

I thought I did ok

If I belittled anyone I didn't mean to.

I haven't met the man, but I heard Shaw was one helluva belittler!
I am lucky enough to have a friend that loves trapping. He only comes in February, but has caught between 7 an 16 in that short month. I certainly feel like it helps, and he gets to have some fun along with helping us out. After he leaves, it takes a few months before the tracks show up, but they don't come back full fledge until fall. Even then, there never seems to be as many as we had the first year we had our place.

Your the 1 that started this crap! Their has been plenty of facts that Nighthunter presented but YOU were to busy looking for ways to deny the truth or twist the truth to say what YOU want it to! If you dont have thick enough skin to take some Belittling then stop posting! I have disagree with people, so what. I have been called names and have called others names , get over it, this is not a womens nitting club! I agree with people when they are right and disagree when they are wrong. They do me the same way, its an open forum. 10,000 member= man up dude. I have offer my help ,and free advice on coyote trapping if i can answer a question i will. I have seen YOU offer zero help, only advice against trapping, because you feel it does no good. I am glad you in YOUR area need no coyote help. Many people on here want/ need coyote help, be it free trapping advice or to pay a professional for leasons or help. It takes only a small investment for a person to learn to trap coyotes. This we should do nothing , but accept the coyotes crap is what pisses me off!

I’m not looking for an apology. Me and my feelings could care less what tactics you guys want to use to debate your side of the argument. I’m just pointing out that for most of the responses here, there’s actually very little substance to what’s being said. Just posting links without any further explanation is not much of a defense either. It’s like just turning in an answer to a math teacher without showing your work. Do you really understand the problem or are you just copying and pasting an answer?

And as far as habitat improvement, I along with the majority of others I think, lease from a timber company. You cut a tree, burn, or anything else along those lines and they'll pack your crap for you and send you on your way. The only thing we can do is plant the very few places they allow us to. Trapping and shooting the yotes we see is our only option.

I was asking strictly based on coyote population. Let's take fawn recruitment out of the picture. So your not actually lowering the population of yotes your just pressuring them during fawning time making the fawns safer? What if I was worried about the yotes eating quail, or rabbits or squirrels? How would your program work if those were my goals?

CNC, do your neighbors walk around griping about not seeing any wild quail? I'm sure they pen raise and turn them loose, right? I know there are several other predators that are as responsible or more so than coyotes, but coyotes aren't the only thing that steps in those traps.

Honestly , jibuc10 i cant answer that correctly. I mainly trap for cattle men ,game managers, and biologist. Im sorry i dont have an answer for you on the birds,rabbits,and squirrells. I would think that buy taking out coyotes it would help the other aniamals have a better chance to make it? Yes you can lower the number of coyotes, but its hard. You must take out 80%, to help the deer fawn recriitment. It you take out 50 and thats your 80% , next year 40 might come back. Then 30 the next year and so on. Studys i have read about talk about 80% for 5 years then you just run what i call a mantaince line of traps to catch the straglers. Im sorry i cant answer your question on bird, squirrels, and rabbits, like i said i deal with cattlemen and gamemanagers!

Thanks for responding. The deer population on my farm is fine, but I've noticed a large decline in the small game population, along with the increase of the yote pop.

My thoughts exactly!!!

FYI, I DO have places I want my coyotes to help me control the deer population.

By the way, I am glad that shooter is not teaching spelling and sentence structure.

and you are getting in here why????


me, myself, and I never want a damn yote "helping" me to control deer numbers , they seem to use a different criteria in choosing which ones to remove

Exactly!


Statistics be damned, but I know for a fact that 100% of the yotes I shoot never kill another deer or throw a single pup. The "yotr radar" may send out a signal to call one in from my neighboring property, but then he has one less for a while as well, so when I kill his trespassing yote I've spared a few deer in both places. You can put up all the graphs of lynxes and rabbits you like, but in my world I'm part of nature and sometimes I'm the deciding factor in this "balance" you talk so much about. Using coyotes to manage your deer population is as logical as using copperheads to control mice in your house, it might work to some degree but it's still pretty damn stoopid.

Somebody needed to straighten them out

I see you do an awful lot of trapping on those places with good fawning habitat. I wonder why

And again, I'll say coyotes are localized issues, just like deer overpopulation. Ted knows that and must be busting my chops.

I just do not want coyotes making my harvest decisions regardless what my deer population is.

P.S.

I'm done.

When you look at the end result, in most situations, coyotes are controlling total deer populations in the same manner as our doe harvesting as hunters have done in the past. You can say they are eating buck fawns or whatever you want to make it sound worse but in the end they are just controlling total population. Doe harvesting is the same, its just a means of controlling total deer populations. Over the next decades to come, coyotes are something we will have to learn to manage with and not believe that we can manage in the absence of. If you believe that they’re aren’t enough deer in your area then the #1 way of changing anything is through improving the habitat for deer and more specifically for fawning. The next step is to reduce your doe harvesting. On the other end of the spectrum, if there are satisfactory numbers of deer in your area and you are more interested in hunting mature bucks on your land and not having to spend half your hunts blasting does……then just allow the coyote to do its job of keeping your herd in check and under carrying capacities. The coyote is just a alternative population control tool to doe harvesting in this manner. The important thing is to recognize the level of impact that all parties in the circle are having on each other. It’s much easier to work with nature than to fight completely against it.

I don't want yotes making decisions on what deer to remove from the population. I'll do that myself.

You may like to have to harvest and process every doe on your property that needs harvesting annually but there are many landowners who do not. There are some people who own or lease land that are perfectly happy with taking out a doe or two for the freezer and then hunting a buck for the rest of the season. The idea of having to shoot 8-10+ does is not something they’re interested in. Not only is it a lot of work to get that many does out of the woods and taken care of, but it also adds a lot more human hunting pressure to the property that is not wanted by people pursuing older bucks.

Johnal3, and BhamFred summed it up very well. Most people have leases. You can not go on leases ans start burning or cutting to improve deer habitat, so trapping is the best option for most leases. BhamFred said it best= I dont want coyotes making the decisions on what deer to remove form the population, i will do that myself! I think that 80-90% of people on here feel the same way. I trully HATE coyotes. I know they need to exist, just like the buzzard. I hate them because , i have sean the faces of ranchers loseing money and small children sad from loosing pets to coyotes. Why must you insist on saying we should try to live with nature? America was built on fighting nature! Most people on here plant greenfeild= thats no 100% natural is it? Quail habitat, isnt all natural is it? I understand the concept of low pressure, and not wanting to shoot lots of does. But if you trap you get more bucks and does! Easy solution . Find a good trapper that will trap your land for hunting rights, that loves to bow hunt and needs meat= problem solved. Most people dont want coyotes. So why not just get ride of them if you can or if you need to. If you dont need the coyotes gone then your in luck i say.

You are right, very localized issue. I have had properties with low deer numbers and habitat modifications didn't help bring up our numbers. Coyote trapping did. There are also those properties that there are too many deer and the hunters will not do an adequate job of killing does to keep the numbers in check, especially with great fawning cover. Coyotes help us out tremendously on these places.

As noted before, it could get expensive - on one property we trap, we kill about a coyote AND a bobcat per 100 acres per year. at $100 per coyote and $100 per bobcat on 3,000 acres that is $6,000 per year, not an insignificant perpetual number.

I'm guessing in general the yotes, would pick the old, weak, and sick deer. Natures law of survival of the fitest is in play in this predator prey relationship. Theorhetically you should get a genetically superior herd by allowing natural predeation cause only the biggest and strongest survive to pass on their genes.


P.S. I respect all y'all's opinions, I'm just not nieve enough to take everything y'all say for 100% truth, no matter how much you chest beat about your credentials. If I could argue with James Andrews about tommy john surgery I would! Haha

Oh yeah I do shoot every yote I see.

Gobbler, i full agree with you. I threw out the 100 dollars a coyote price as an example of traveling 50 miles one way and not charging a set-up fee as some trappers do. I agree that 6000 dollars is on the high side for 3000 acres. I have worked for for professional like your self and can honestly say, I dont charge for the bobcats or raccons. I look at it as part of the bussiness. Sometimes i get opossom, coons,fox,and bobcat. I dont charge for any of them, just the coyote. My trappers i know do the same. I only trap and charge for coyote. If in season i can save the bobcat pelt, and resale. This would off seat any over run of bobcat catching one would have to do own a property trapping for coyote. So if you had someone trap 3000 acres and charge 50 for the coyotes, throw in the bobcats for free, would it be worth a free member ship and 1500 dollars? Maybe you could find a GOOD local trapper that you could trust and that shared the same management ideas that YOU have and get him to do it for free hunting rights? My only point is i feel trapping is a valueable tool, and a skill set worth passing down to the next generation

technically, yer prolly wrong about the sick/wounded/old deer being chosen. Yotes kill whatever presents itself first. During fawning season they target newborn fawns. My experience with fawns tells me the buck fawns are more active and more likely to get up and move, therefore putting themselves at greater yote risk. Back in my rehab days the buck fawns outnumbered the doe fawns by at least three to one. My field examinations of dead fawns, if sex is identifiable) follows that ratio pretty close.

Yall got this solved yet?

All I want is more turkeys. Yall can have the deer, coyotes, skunks, cats, dogs, armidillos and whatever else you want.

And what kind of animal would usually present it self first? a sick or injured or whatever animal. I would consider a fawn to be a "weak" animal in the overall herd, and the fawns that aren't eaten would be stronger, smarter, faster, better a hiding... than the ones that got eaten. Therefore only the best of the best fawns survive to adult hood. How can you argue against natural selection?

Man, I gotta be honest, I don't even know what this conversation is about anymore!

not even close to what happens....please give your PERSONAL experience and expertise with newborn fawns.......as opposed to something you heard at the hunting club..or on here.

the ones that survive are the ones that stay put better/longer and also are just lucky, as in lotto lucky. Also fawns of older mommas that put em in better hiding places and move em every time she feeds. And "faster" ain't got chitt to do with small fawns. As a yote hunts it will kill every fawn it comes to, hopefully there are a lot more fawns than the yotes can kill so that some actually survive to six months. Ain't got chitt to do with smart, just the odds....

I have zero experience with fawns. But you contradict your self in your own argument. You say the fawns that get eaten are randomly selected just like the lotto, but then You say the mother has an affect on the fawns survival. How can both of these be true. Is it completely lotto random or are there other factors that go into which fawns get preyed upon. I guess you don't believe in natural selection. Is it not natural preditory instinct to target the weak where the predator has less of a chance at injuring itself vs going after the strongest animal in the herd? This doesn't come from here or a camp fire. I learned this straight out of a zoological text book, this was some years ago though so my facts might be off. Listen I don't want a pissing match with you it just seems like the smart thing for a predator to do would be to target the "lesser" animals in a herd. Maybe yotes are dumb and don't care about their personal safety

Like I said I have no educational background with the yote deer relationship. I'm just saying that if the normal predator prey relationships exist predators prey on the weak and only the strongest prey survive.

do a search ,,,, do coyotes kill healthy deer

you really need to reread what Fred typed

Yes they do but wouldnt they prefer a weak one? If there was a three legged sick doe and a 250 peak health buck standing in a field which one will the coyote go for? Here's a good source of information.

Predator Prey relationship

All I'm saying is that natural predation does a good job of selecting the weak and therefore making the prey stronger better evolved.

Your making your self god when you say that you know better which animals should die than a coyote

Just one study but I think they're on my side

"Coyote predation is not a limiting factor to the deer population"

Also says that prey that are weak or sick are more likely to be preyed on by coyotes and that 6+ year old deer are preyed upon the same amount as fawns.

WRONG. Read Genesis 1.26 . Basicly it says= God gave man dominion over ,fish,fowl,cattle, and every thing that creeeth upon the earth. Now thats not word for word but close. So its not making your self God. God gave us dominion over coyotes.

If he wanted us to do all the killing why did he create predators? That verse does not say humans are required to take the place of coyotes in nature it simply says we rule over them. Let's turn this into a religious battle since we can't win the other, good tactic

Did you even reAd the article I posted specifically about the yote deer relationship?

i'm not religious

man being top predator nature gives me the right to contorll other predators ., it's called "competition" .

less of them the more i have . just that simple !!!!

Well put ! I like that!

Yes . I read some of that nonsense, that has no bearing on coyotes and this rant on wanting them gone. I still will continue to trap and kill as many of them as i can. And you are the one that started the whole where playing god part, Just though you might like to know YOU are wrong. Ok continue on, i have nothing better to do to day that argue with you coyote lovers!!!

No sir I was referring to this article. http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/org_nws/NWSci%...g213%20Ogle.PDF What is nonsense about the article?

Just so everybody know I'm all for killing coyotes and just don't think it has nearly as much affect on the deer herd as y'all are arguing. Certainly not $100 a head

Thats not the one i was talking about. The one you posted about prey& predator that had grizzlys, lions,tigers, and galoags something. That one was the 1 I was talking about. like i have said many, many, many, many, times the 100 dollars coverd me driving 100 miles a day. I also said i have worked for= hunting rights and guns. My point was YOU can often work out a deal with a professional trapper!

Then why spend so much time arguing about it? Good grief, get a hobby or something? You are indeed fortunate (or completely ignorant) to not hunt in an area where coyotes make an impact, but in my view if they kill ONE SINGLE FAWN it's too many.

I am the only predator my lease needs to kill any deer.

I'm obviously missing the point here. Sorry for taking up y'all's time with scientific university backed studies. Next time I'll just say cause bubba told me. Y'all take the time to read this article http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/org_nws/NWSci%...g213%20Ogle.PDF
This is where some of my ideas are coming from. My other ideas just seem like common sense to me, but as Fred's tag line reads " you'd be surprised how hard simple is on folks" guess that describes me! I now know how 49er feels

one thing the study was done in washington state . deer population is kelp in check by weather up there because of the winters you will have more sick and weak . what is a limiting factor there is not true in the south .

the biggest flaw in yours and CNC thinking is you are taking hunters out of it . you know we like to kill deer too .

question is , do we want more deer to hunt or less deer to hunt ? you're not going to have more deer with coyotes left unchecked here in the south.

there were some studies posted earlier in this topic read those they were done in the south .

Frankie you were right I guess I was speaking in more general scientific terms not specific properties in Alabama. Listen y'all this is how I like my yotes. hell I even trap them a little Do I think its worth it to pay some one to do it for me? Absolutely not. Do I think a professional trapper will make a significant difference in your deer herd? No. Do I think that a coyote does a better job at natural selection than I do? Yes. Do I think coyotes do a better job of ensuring only the strongest of my deer herd survive than I do? Yes. Does I think that helps improve the genetics in my deer herd? Yes. Do I think more coyotes= more deer, and less coyotes=less deer? Yes. And before y'all freak out, meaning the more deer you have the more coyotes you can support. The less deer up have the less coyotes it can support. And finally do I completely understand why a cattlemen would hire a professional trapper? Yes.

Only thing im going to say is you need to close or tack well that J-link on those duke traps! And some Formula 1 or Full Metal Jacket will keep that trap from rusting!!

Thanks man. This has been kinda like a persuasive essay in school for me. Like the one where you get stuck with pro gun control. I may not actually believe some of the stuff I said but I feel like I did a pretty good job supporting my arguments with science. And actually now feel a lot better about my lack of trapping success cause I don't think it makes a big difference in how many deer I have.

Persussive essay? I think i had one of those steal my trap one time when i was in south alabama! In the early 90s when i hunted in Lee and Macon , if you shot a deer at dark, you better not wait to long to go get it. I shot a doe once, waited 4 hours and when i found the deer , it looked like buzzards on the Africa Savanna had eaten it whole! Those where the days when we saw up to 40 deer on an evening hunt. I glad you dont need coyote control at where ever you at. But unfortainately most people do.

just so you know, I'd give you a d- in this class. You have no idea what you are talking about.....

I'm sure glad you weren't my teacher then! What grade did you give these guys Dr. Kroll ?

yer problem is that you are just passing on others information without any personal knowledge of what in the hail yer talking about...

That is correct other than I regularly hunt on this property which is prob the best yote deer study ever done in this state. SNI Farms
Coyotes are def the number one predator of fawns, but is this predation bad for a deer herd? I cannot find anything where a healthy deer herd is drastically affected by coyote predation. In fact auburn university said that coyote predation is actually good in some areas. The only areas where coyotes affect the deer population is in areas of heavy doe harvest. It also states that after 6 months yote populations were already back to pre trapping levels. All of the studies I've read have been very inconclusive as to the affects of yotes on deer.
I'm also not looking at this through the glasses of a hunter(which might be why I don't understand y'all's side of the argument). I'm looking at this like a biologist would. Strictly looking at the relationship between predator and prey, and the effect this relationship has on both of their overall populations.

I don't know what else to do than to read scholarly publications to educate my self. Fred what is your educational back ground? Or is all your "knowledge" based on your work in law enforcement? Oh yeah which one of my comments are soo wrong. Can you give me an example so I can do some more research on the topic.

I'd also like some clarification on your comment that which fawns get eaten are completely lotto random, but then you say the fawns with older mothers have a better chance of not getting eaten. How can both of these be true?

Dude, thats a lot of reading! I have been out of school for 25 years. I just skipped to the charts.50 % increase between pre trapping and post trapping? I will take 50% more fawns any day!

Yeah it is a lot of reading, but you've got to do more than look at the pictures to understand the overall conclusions of the study. Plus when I've got everyone calling me a dumb arse, I try to educate my self so that I'm not a dumb arse anymore. Plus I've learned to believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. So sorry that I don't take y'all's word as 100% truth. I do believe the studies I've read that have been done by dr's at universities. None of what I've said has been my personal opinion. So when your calling me a dumb arse your calling the folks at UGA, Auburn, and Washinton State dumb arses.

Also I wanted to tell you the your persuasive essay comment was hilarious made me lol.

I likes the pictures! I dont remember calling YOU a dumb ass! Maybe a coyote lover! Could have called CNC a dumb ass though! Honestly its getting hard to remember! Nothing in life is 100%. I think a study done in the 70-80 might not me accurate/apply today.A study done in another state might no apply to yours/ or my situation. A study done in north alabama might be different than 1 done in south alabama. But i do think that truthfully lots of the state of ALABAMA has a coyote problem.

Not you shooter I'm starting to like you! My disagreements are mainly with Fred now. What do you think about this shooter? Do you think coyotes will target the young, old, weak, sick, small ....animals in a herd or would they rather take on an animal at full strength, or do they not discriminate on which prey to target?

I think coyotes are target what ever they come across when they are hungery. Their very ( opertunistic)? sorry i cant spell good as an Auburn graduate. If the come across a sick or wounded deer they eat it. If its a fawn they eat it, if they can find it! So to an extent they dont Discriminate. As to with one= a single coyote probably doesnt want to take down a large , health aniamal, but a pack might. Here we go into different places. So places have small packs/ some have large packs. The will target anything , depends on the season. Fawns are sometimes easey marks, depends on the mother. I once did a large cattle job, the ranches did some AI ? injections ?/ and had lots of calfs dropping in a few short days of each other. The rancher witness coyotes following the cows waitiing for them to give birth. They would eat the after birth and calve. The first day a shot a coyote will i was setting traps, this coyote was laying down on a terris row/ hump watching a cow about to give birth when i shot it! Coyotes are very smart aniamal! I respect them but hate them at the same time! Point is coyotes will go after what ever they learn how to kill. So times I wounder if thats heratatery or a taught or learned behavior? Does a mother coyote teach here young how to specalize own cattle calfs?

If they aren't discriminating why do they take the calves instead of the full grown cows. I'm sure they come across cows all the time? If they aren't discriminating it seems to me that a adult cow would be better for them to kill cause they would get more meat. So if a yote was in a pasture with an adult cow and a calf the results according to you should be 50-50 on to which animal they would try and kill.

They kill whatever is easiest to kill at the moment, obviously. Do you actually consider this "survival of the fittest" and that it's a good or helpful thing?

try to consider that the "natural selection" that is used here may take out the buck fawn that was going to sire 8 bucks over 160" in his lifetime, but the yotes killed him when he was 2 days old, while his cousin that will never sire anything over 115" survived because his 8 y/o mother hid him better. It's nature at it's finest, right?

Which scenario do YOU want for YOUR deer herd?

They will take down cows, IF the chance presents its self. Large/ medium size cow . Was jumped by large pack of coyotes. Cow was laying down in tall grass, coyotes attach in force, because of grass and terrain cow can get up, gets eaten alive. Its a horrable thing to see, but does happen. Also lots of times a cow has a hard time with delevery of calve so its week lays down and coyotes get it. So i guess you can say theirs< points on the board for both our ways of the arguement> i quess.

When you get locked down on the semantics of words like "selection process" or "natural discrimination" you take out the human element , that hunters want what WE want, not what the yote or his egg-headed supporters want.

I want to determine the selection process, I want to control the herd size, I want to determine the fawn recruitment level and not leave it to the coyotes.

Y'all people like to call a lot of names. And if you've read some of my previous posts or seen the pics I posted I am obviously not a yote lover. You can call it what ever you want but a yote is gonna go after what is easiest for him to kill, I don't see how anyone can argue against that. Also it is natural selection. you argue about buck fawns being killed, but guess what the more skilled, and experienced moms to a better job of preventing their fawns from being killed. Therefore only the moms with the best survival instincts, and best genetics will have there fawns survive. Therefore passing on their successful genes to their surviving offspring(remember buck get half their genes from their mother) less skilled moms loose more fawns because they aren't as good at what they do. Therefore the mother will pass on her crappy instincts if her baby doesn't get eaten.

Sounds like a pretty good description of survival of the fittest and natural selection to me. What am I missing here Vulcan

You guys calling everyone a dumb arse, egghead, etc… that disagrees with you is one of the main things that keeps this place from being any kind of real learning environment for the general AL deer hunter and mostly just a hang out for good ol’ boys posting youtube videos and talking about everything BUT deer. Its no wonder why the general discussion forum is just rolling by with pages and pages of bullchit while the forum for talking about “deer” just sits idle. Why don’t you guys try a different approach for a while? Requiring thick skin is one thing but when the belittling tone gets to this point then any real serious contributors to the conversation slowly leave. It’s why many of the people “in the know” don’t even bother posting here anymore.

People in the know like Nighthunter, Gobbler, and BhamFred leave because of people that want listen and question good common ALABAMA coyote knowledge. I think people got up set-with the fact or the point trying to be pushed from YOU that trapping does not good! You heard from top biologist when in some cases its important to trap and some its not. I agree some places dont need it and some dont. But to say trapping isnt cost effecent is a flat-out lie. YOU can make it effecent, if you want. Gets some thicker skin or stop posting!!!

How can people in the know argue that natural predation doesn't not promote survival of the fittest? And that it's simply a crap shoot or a lottery to which animal is targeted and killed. If that was the case it would be 50-50 chance that a yote faced with the decision of catching and killing a fawn vs catching and killing a health adult deer. And that it's not natural predatory instinct to prey upon the young old sick weak animals of the herd.

Because its both. I am not an expert but think its 50-50 .It depends on the place you are at . Cattle counrty coyotes , differ from north alabma hunting club and south alabama hunting club coyotes. I think we have lost sight on what is most important to 80% of the people on here. Getting more deer! I ask the question again who doesnt want MORE? Plus your saving fawns lives by trapping at the right time of year when YOU can make a difference

I think folks get bored with reading the same arguments over & over, based on specific localized studies that may or may not be sound science, and it becomes obvious that some people are arguing just for the sake of arguing. If you take offense to the so-called "name-calling" you might look into why it's occurring, or maybe not try to distract with some hypersensitive display. I might even point out that you began your mantra stating that anyone who disagrees with you may as well pound sand with their useless attempts at controlling natural selection or some such drivel, but that would put me on your whiny-assed level, huh?
Keep coyotes as pets, let them eat your fawns, whatever you might enjoy, but a 1968 study done in Washington state probably won't sway many deer hunters in Alabama about the impact of coyotes. Most here have first-hand knowledge about what happened to the deer herd OVERALL with the influx of coyotes. Have a nice day.

Simple, because it's not, avoiding predators is largely a learned behavior. It's also based on a lot of luck, because coyotes generally kill nearly EVERY fawn they can catch, usually just because they happened upon them, sometimes they eat part, but I've also seen them run them down, kill 'em and drop 'em, they didn't check to see which ones were genetically superior. You can't see that? Seriously?

You are arguing just to pass the time, I think it's a waste of time.

PFFT.

Obviously from what I can tell from you guys natural selection and survival of the fittest doesn't exist I'm Alabama or either I don't understand what it means or y'all don't. I guess if that's the case then evolution doesn't happen in bama either. It's amazing how an animal that doesn't evolve could even develop defense strategies for a introduced predator. Or did the ones that lived pass that defense strategy on to their young?

Its been made obvious to me the points I'm arguing don't exist in Alabama , and must only exist every where else in the world there is a predator prey relationship. Everyone complains that people argue too much on he said she said but when I present sound scientifically backed information the tides are turned, and its "well on my property..." I'm sorry if I offended anyone with out name calling. I don't feel any hatred towards any of y'all, and it may sound crazy to y'all but I argue with my friends just like this, and if alcohols involved it usually turns into a bloody lip haha. I'm going to agree to disagree and if any of y'all can prove any of my points wrong with a good scholarly article please pm it to me cause I'm always up for furthering my knowledge hell I prob read 5 papers and over 40 pages just doing research for this thread and 90% of what I said came directly from the studies, it shocks me that all those studies are wrong according to our experts.

I want to especially let bhamfred know that I thought we were just having a educating convo no hard feelings. And I'd really like to learn more about your research on this subject since you disagree with all the studies I read.

This is an argument for another time but to answer your question. No I don't want more deer. I want bigger stronger healthier deer.

I understand what your saying. I want both thought. Let me explain that statement. I am usually in 2 or 3 different hunting clubs every year. In jackson county my coyote problems are different thatn in central alabama. So basicly i admit to wanting 2 differnt things. In another spot in ST.clair county were i hunt deer density is extremely low, their for my main concern is taking out coyotes and saving as many fawns as possible . I want both more deer and stronger healthier deer! I think by an over all trapping, summer time food plots, feeding pellets, and by ONLY shooting 4 year old bucks i can accomplish my goals. I didnt say habitat improvement because , i cant do that. Im in multiple clubs and other smaller pieces of owned and leased lands so every piece of ground is different as far as coyote controll.

I hear ya my brother things are different at every location.

Oh, nobody is debating whether natural selection or survival of the fittest exist, they just don't happen to apply to every circumstance, and they aren't neccessarily a good thing all the time. And just because a study is based on scientific deduction doesn't mean that the assumptions made are correct for other situations.

But I do recognize that some folks just enjoy arguing.

The biggest takeaway folks need to have from this topic is coyote are or will be part of most peoples management concerns in AL. If you don't have them you will, they are just that adaptive. Coyote populations seem to be able to be managed fairly effectively by trapping during the right times by a "good" trapper. Coyotes can and do have a big impacts on fawn recruitment in some areas due to various circumstances (population, habitat and so on). Also, there is a lot we do not know about coyotes because of their recent establishment in the southeast but they will continue to be studied. You can be sure that coyotes ARE killing fawns. That may be helping or hurting you management strategy but every decision that is taken out of your hands usually costs you in the long run.

My disagreement is mostly that you guys are advocating as if predator control is just another thing that every AL deer hunter should now be doing if they’re to have a well rounded management plan. Its no different than a decade or two ago when folks started preaching about the need to shoot does in order to have a well rounded plan and every AL deer hunter thought that meant them…..even though most of them had no real idea of how to assess their property and determine if they really did need to shoot does. This idea of everyone trapping is not much different. Predator trapping as a necessity is only needed in a small percentage of situations. It would be like if everyone thought we needed to get rid of all the sharks in the ocean in order to be able to fish for amberjack or red snapper.

Look, if you guys want to blast every yote that comes by you or pay someone to trap…..then by all means, have at it. I’m just being realistic about the true impact that’s being made and the true cost I’m paying to implement that change. For most hunters, this issue over the long term with boil down to more trigger finger restraint when it comes to harvesting does than it will to predator trapping. This really is not as big of a deal as most people make it out to be. For many it will be no different than the “doe days” of the past where doe harvesting is no longer and “unlimited” rule like it has been. This will have to happen from an individual landowner/hunting club level too and not just on a state level. Managers and club presidents may have to implement their own doe days. This is what we do at my hunting club. Even though state rules allow us to harvest does all season…..we voluntarily make our own rule to stop on Dec 15.

Heck, if I approach the guys in my hunting club and tell them…”Alright guys, we have 3 choices next year….1) We can either cut our doe harvests back from around 18-20 down to around 8-10…..2) We can spend all summer driving an hour one way back and forth to the club running trap lines….. 3) or we can pay someone $2,000 to trap for us……I’m betting that 9 out of 10 of them are going to choose option 1 and tell me that they didn’t really want to shoot that many does anyways. Think about it like this, if you are in this situation and you choose option 3…..then you are really just paying so that you can shoot more does. Most timber company leases are suffering as much, if not more, from trigger finger restraint as coyote predation. I find that planted pines make for good habitat for deer in several stages of its life.

Nighthunter……..If you had to just take a guess, what percentage of AL hunting properties do you think currently need trapping efforts in place in order to have good huntable populations of deer?

I sorry but i still disagree with you CNC. Your option 3 is just not correct! YOUR saying that the 2000 dollars is payed for trapping and your only getting more does. That is a lie. Thats like saying does only give birth to doe fawns and not buck fawns. At leats 50% of the fawns would be buck fawns correct? BhamFred stated that in his rehab of deer that 2 of 3 were button bucks< from does> so over 50% are buck fawns correct? I understand trigger control= i practice it on does, but if dont see the value of having 50% more bucks i dont know what to say? Think of you option 3, like this= 10 members add 1 more member that is a proffessional trapper that will trap for hunting rights instead of 2000 dollars.

Y’all kill me how you always want to try and scare everyone by making it about less bucks. In the scenario you/we are talking about here shooter, we are comparing two ways to compensate for the loss of deer (buck or doe) due to predation…..You can either take out yotes so that fawns survive at a higher rate or you can leave more does in the population so that more total fawns are produced. Either way is increasing the net gain of fawns. Its just the approach you use to get there that’s different. One way is associated with a lot of time, money, and effort required on the part of the landowner/hunter while the other just requires you not shoot as many does. Not shooting as many does is also a lot more feasible and realistic goal for most people on a long term basis. Predator trapping is not something that many people with continue to do for more than just a couple years. For example, people throw the idea of trapping hogs around on here as if its not that big a deal. However, let someone drag 150-250 lb hogs out of knee deep mud and hog chit for a couple summers while they fight the heat, snakes, and bugs…..and they begin to not like the idea of long term hog trapping anymore. Predator tapping will no be much different for most folks.

And I appreciate that in your never-to-be-humble mentality that you truly believe that the coyotes on your lease only kill does and inferior doe fawns, and that your attitude that this is acceptable should apply to all hunters in Alabama. I understand that you feel there's some symbiotic agreement that your yotes will only increase in numbers to match your deer herd and stay there, instead of continuing to grow until that particular food source is decimated, the way they seem to do in most of the state.
I think that most of the disagreement you get is from guys like myself who don't trust the coyotes to only take out the inferior fawns or the sick does, instead of the ones who they catch easily because they are protecting their inferior doe fawns and so forth, and we want to be the determining factor of the size of our deer herd. I believe that the coyotes where I hunt kill fawns, both doe & buck, at nearly every opportunity, and I don't want them to kill any. Any at all. I view them as an invasive species, and would gladly eradicate every single one of them, think of it like snake-heads in a lake instead of sharks in the ocean. They just don't belong.
I understand that there are pocket areas that have overpopulation of deer and that some of those leases are held by hunters that don't care to shoot does or control their population, I guess I equate that to guys that want to marry hot highly sexed women, but don't care to service their particular needs and are just as happy to leave it to someone else. It just doesn't make sense to me, and in both cases I'm sure there would be plenty of volunteers to help out if you let it be known that there is an availability. There are hundreds of guys on this board that would gladly drive hours and bowhunt does only if you would allow it, and you wouldn't need coyotes at all. I believe that there are plenty of reasons that "natural predation" and "survival of the fittest" theories don't apply to coyotes in Alabama,but you choose to believe otherwise, and it's fairly obvious that neither view is likely to change the others, all condescension and name-calling aside.

Loaded question...

Every landowner/lessee has a different idea about their idea population. This subject is more about hunter satisfaction than herd health when you get down to it. If you are happy seeing a couple of deer once a week then let the coyotes eat. A huntable population is 5 deer per square mile but I wouldn't want to hunt there.

I will say not that high though if you are talking coyote predation only but if you add in additive mortality from hunting then it will get on up there but still stay under 50% by a decent margin. Getting higher though. I only had property in 29 counties in AL though, so I haven't see in all but I have seen a lot...

Also keep in mind that I was on timber co. properties mostly with a few private landowners that we did work for.

I think we are finding common ground. So going by what you are saying….would agree then that for the vast majority of AL hunters….coyotes alone likely do not represent a “devastating” (extinct, low numbers, unsatisfactory hunting, etc.) threat to our deer herds, but rather it’s the combination of hunters and coyotes (additive mortality) that poses such a high risk or threat level in terms of sustaining future populations???

Wow, i missed alot , still going I see. I am glad were all getting closer to getter on this thing. So basicly a vast majority of hunted propertys have coyote problems. Problems because, most hunters want to see more deer correct? I can except that. We want to see more deer. So with hunting WE create a situation that,we need trapping help to keep us being able to shoot more deer?

I don't really want to see more deer, I just want to see big deer. And I don't want a damn yote making ANY cull decisions for me.

Troy, in a situation like you are describing where deer sightings/numbers are satisfactory…..the number of young bucks that you have on your property (1 ½ year olds) will likely have much more to do with the outcome of that year’s buck dispersal. How desirable is your property (quality of habitat) for a young buck seeking a new home and how many social holes are open in these desirable areas for them to fill. Whether or not the young dispersing bucks that decide to take up residence on your property have the potential for large racks or small racks will likely be completely random/lotto pick. Your “big” deer from that point will just be a matter of which ones and how many you let get old.

Again, in a situation like this where deer numbers are satisfactory and the desire to hunt old mature bucks is a major goal…..then coyotes are very much your friend in that they simply help alleviate the need for any intense doe management as a means of controlling total deer populations. This greatly reduces the amount of hunting pressure that has to be placed on a property that the owner/leaser is likely wanting to keep “quiet”.

I dont want them making MY decisions either! I to want bigger deer . I shoot for 4 years old plus! But i still like to SEE deer when im hunting deer. I dont care if it is a 2 year old buck or doe. The more bucks we have today, the more bucks we have to hunt in years to come, is the way i see it ! I understand CNC idea of low pressure. And we dont shoot does off greenfeild. But seeing very few deer is a slow day for me. Spending 12 hours in a tree to see no deer isnt what im looking to do! I will keep trapping, pass up small bucks, shooting does ONLY in bow season and not from greenfeilds and try to get the land owners to let us do SOME habitat munipulation/ improvement!

watching coyotes explode in a red mist with flying body parts from a 25-06 and a hundred grain bullet is good summertime fun anyway.

Yeah kinda but I am with Troy on the yotes. Don't want them. They are very localized problems but where they are causing issues typically recruitment is really suffering. This situation seems to be expanding from my experience but no, 7 out of 10 folks aren't dealing with coyotes.

This will be a constantly evolving subject like hogs though.

Turkey season is finally over and I actually took the time to read this thread so now y'all get my .2 cents worth!

CNC if you have a large enough piece of ground that you own and can manage however you see fit then we're all happy for you but the majority of hunters in the south are paying to lease land from timber companies that could give a shucks less about habitat improvement! They manage the land for one thing only! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in the form of pine timber! If you think that's a lie then show me an SMZ with a pine tree standing in it that would make a pole!.....

Trapping is the only option most have to TRY to help increase fawn recruitment on leased property!

Jbuc10 you said that you didn't think that a professional trapper could make a difference! I AM NOT a professional trapper but I CAN show you (not in a study from Washington State) but from mud on MY boots right here in Washington Co. South Alabama where my trapping along with habitat improvements has greatly increased the amount of game on my property!

I'm that Billybob wannabe trapper that shooters kept mentioning but for the past 10 years I've trapped and killed every predator I could! Not just coyotes but fox, bobcats, coons, possums and skunks! Anything that eats the game I'm trying to help is my enemy right down to the snakes that eat turkey, quail and dove eggs!

That's my .2 cents worth and if you don't like it as CNC says you can go pound sand! Lol! I'm going back to the turkey forum!