Clover seeding-out & mowing question

Question: we're in SW AL and we planted white (mainly) and some crimson clovers and I know we will need to mow the clover soon but I don't want to mow before the clover seeds-out. I have been so busy with a new job that I haven't even been to my hunting property but I hear the clover fields looks GREAT!

Any ideas around what dates the clover will seed-out in SW Al? I'm just wondering when to mow. I have my ideas but I love to listen to what other people think and I appreciate your replies.

What's the rush on mowing it? What would happen if you waited until June?

Oh, no rush in particular. I was told by other hunting club members that the clover is very high (from a pure clover standpoint of height) and I'd rather mow it soon after seeding-out rather than waiting until it's hot and maybe not as much rainfall. At least that's my thought process but this is why I like to ask... I get to hear what other people think and hear their experiences and ideas. I love food potting and have my own thoughts but I'm not opposed to doing anything differently and trying this or that. I value others' opinions. Thanks!!!

Something else... in one field, we planted cereal grains as a companion crop for the clover. Thoughts on spraying herbicide specific application "now" or "waiting" until wheat and oats seeds out too (as well as the clover) for our turkeys to eat the wheat/oats seed and then mow the clover (food plot) and "then" spray with I.E. clethodim a week later?

I guess it would depend on if you want the grain to come back next year. If you spray before seeding out, the less there will be. I'm no clover expert, so take that with a grain of salt.

Spray with arrest herbicide before you mow kills the wheat/oaks not the clover.

you can get ARREST through the whitetail institute. it is one of their products. Wait until the clover fades from white until it look brownish. The remaining brown in the head is the seeds. Mow and it spreads those VERY tiny clover seeds.
I have had some very good clover plots from doing this...

If you want it to seed out there is no real timeline. You must watch. Most of it will seed closely together, some whites will be a little later than the rest or with the rain and temps might seed right along with everything else this year.

Let the seed heads mature (get dry) and then mow while the seed is still on the head but dry, preferably just before a rain event if at all possible. It does not really matter that much but I like all the things to be in my favor.

If you have grass competition (crab, fescue, rye, etc.) spray with clethodim NOW!!! If you only have the cereal grains the mowing will usually take care of them this late in the game. Do not let them get too tall and thick though. It can create a dense thatch layer that "CAN" be so dense it will inhibit growth. I know this from experience

When you mow it... Do not cut too low... Try only taking 1/2 of height or less.

Yep, good rule of thumb is stick your hand strait into the clover and the clover should be just above your knuckles if it reaches your wrist it is too tall for sure.

The new thinking is not to mow the clover, if its a perrenial plot, until early fall. We plant it for the deer to eat, so let them eat it. CC will die in May. The cereal grains will die by June. If you have a grass problem spray with clethodim. Its a grass specific herbicide, thats a lot cheaper than the stuff from WI. No need to mow CC for it to come back. Are you going to leave the white clover thru the summer, or are you going to plant something else this spring? The turkeys will appreciate the seeds on the cereal grains. Exactly what is your goal, with this plot?

Blumsden:

The new thinking is "not" to mow? Hmmm.... I'd like to know more about what the reasoning is to not mow. I'm not saying that you "should" mow.... I just want to know the science behind the approach of not mowing clover. I'm thinking that when you do mow, it stimulates new growth which the new growth is higher in nutrition/digestible protein and more palatable.

I also have enough sense to not mow during HOT weather. Do not mow during a drought. And, not mow it to the ground.

Anyway, are there available studies out there that looked at pros and cons of mowing/not mowing? What's Pennington Seed say about the care of its Durana Clover? Or, what are the other companies selling proprietary clovers (WI) say about upkeep and care of their clovers?

The plot doesn't have a lot of grass in it but the wheat, oats and triticale are fairly thick. I will probably want to leave the field as a pure clover field. This particular foods plot will not be hunted as it's very close to the camp house and it exists for viewing and feeding of wildlife. And besides, the food plot holds decent moisture. Not wet... just sufficient moisture for clover.

Thanks!

There was an article on the QDMA website a few months ago, that was written by a well respected clover expert, his name escapes me. He basically said why mow and waste all that food. I wish i had a link for you. I'll try and find it.

Not sure about this new thinking either. I work with Pennington very closely and it has not been a plan of care for clover here in the south. Not saying someone doesn't say it's best though. Common knowledge for clover is the more nutrients put into growing vertically means less nutrients are put into the foliage.

Please do, I'd like see what he has to say. It is a different line of thinking for sure.

I don't think Blumsden is saying don't mow it ever....just wait until Fall if possible. Is that correct Blumsden? I am trying to figure all of this out also. I experimented with Durana only in some plots to try and establish multiyear/perennial clover plots. In all the others I did Crimson and Arrowleaf for forage through Spring and part of Summer. All of them were planted with a wheat, oat and cereal rye mix last Fall. Any additional help or suggestions on best way to proceed from here would be great. My plan is to replant the plots with Crimson and Arrowleaf again this Fall. The winter grains are about two feet high right now and fairly thick. The clover is doing great under the grain right now. My friend just threw a curve ball at me by saying I can use his two row planter if i want it. I hate to disk a perfect cover plot to plant corn or beans but that is the decision I have to make. Any suggestions? Thanks.

No, i'm not saying don't ever mow. I'm saying, the only reason that i could see mowing, is to control broadleaf weeds, but i would rather spray 24db to control broadleaf weeds. Everytime you put your tractor on your plot, you packing the soil. Over the years compaction can become an issue. I plant clover for the deer to eat, i just don't see mowing down 6"-10" of perfectly good deer food for no reason. I know it stimulates new growth, but so does cutting cowpea's, and i don't know of anyone who cuts there pea's when they get over a foot tall. I couldn't find the article, it may have even been a video. I'll see if Lindsay can re-post it. Crimsonhunter, all annual clovers will be near the end of their lifecycle by June, so wait if you want, but deer are not using plots much right now.

I have never mowed white clover. I understand that it does not produce much good seed, It spreads from stolon's. I mow crimson after it dies to spread the seed. My crimson has come back for years doing it this way.

I wouldn't till under a perfectly good clover field to plant corn. The clover will give you protein that corn can't. I wouldn't even bother with beans if you have a good stand of clover going. Just one man's opinion.

IMO, it's too early, even in south AL to mow clover if you want it to reproduce from the seed it made.

I'm asking a question, even if it doesn't sound like it.

Wouldn't you be better off to not mow the clover until early fall, so the seed will stay off the ground and be less likely to sprout until weather conditions are more favorable for clover growth?

Furflyin, great point about the seed staying off the ground and not germinating (until fall, when you'd really want it to germinate and have better survival rates) but what % of the seeds would rest (stay) in their open seed-producing pods if they're not disturbed? I kinda think most would fall to the ground anyway. And, of those "reseeding" seeds, what % of the seeds would germinate and when? Then, what % would survive if they germinated in the late spring or early summer? In a thick stand of clover and soil surface shaded from sun, the moisture on the surface of the soil would be somewhat stable with decent rainfall as the temp of the surface soil would be lower.

Deep sigh... so many variable.

I will probably wait until the clover seeds-out and then mow and fert with 0-20-20. Then, a day or two after a rain, I'll spray with an applicable herbicide using a four-wheeler for less footprint.

I'm going to Pennington's website to see what or if it says anything about mowing.

Below is from Pennington Seed website. Written by Kent Kammermeyer, Senior Wildlife Biologist.

Kent says to mow but he doesn't go into why mowing is beneficial. Again, I would suppose it would be to stimulate new growth and to address competition, but I'm not certain.

If I did mow in the summer, which I am wondering just how well my clover will look in late July, I would not mow it low and I would mow it when I knew it was going to rain the next few days. IMO.

***************************** Here's the article says:

Management/Varieties

Management of ladino clover is dependent on grass management and weed control. Ladino planted with perennial grasses should be mowed frequently (2 or 3 times per summer) with the final mowing in late August. Fertilizer should be applied once per year in September with 300 lbs/acre of 0-20-30. The same management technique is used for ladino planted with annual grasses but fewer mowings maybe needed, depending on weed competition. If everything goes well, the second year stand should be a mixed stand of ladino and red clover with the third year being pure ladino. If wild grasses (crabgrass, johnsongrass, bermudagrass, bahiagrass, foxtail, fescue or ryegrass) become a problem competing with clover, Poast grass-selective herbicide (mixed with crop oil) can be sprayed when grasses are 6-8 inches tall to remove grasses without damaging the clover stand. Apply when grasses are vigorously growing. Cultivars in the U.S. which are in widespread use include California Ladino, Osceola, Regal, Tillman, Advantage, Will, Tripoli, Alice and Patriot (a Pennington hybrid). I have used all of the above varieties in north Georgia and all produce well and are utilized heavily by deer. Both Osceola and Patriot are noted for their persistence. New ladino clover blends include Rackmaster Supreme Clover/Rye Blend, Rackmaster Ultimate Perennial Mixture, Rackmaster Refuge Mixture, and Rackmaster Clover Blend. New cultivars and hybrids of ladino and medium leaf white clovers, which are even more persistent, should be available in a few years.

Dont worry about mowing the clover, all the winter grass you planted for the deer will seed out and die around the end of May, but it might take a while longer because of all the late cool weather,bushog in Aug,when you disc your fields in Sept it will take to growing again

I also read this on the QDMA forum while researching my question:

**************************************************
MOWING WHITE CLOVER FOOD PLOTS
By: Kent Kammermeyer

There is not a simple answer to the question of when and how much to mow established clover stands. If the stand is less than one year old and is mixed with small grains (oats, wheat, or rye) then wait until after the grains mature and go to seed. If weeds are low or non-existent, a single mowing in August will suffice. Otherwise, mow as necessary to reduce weed competition, possibly June and August. Do not mow in droughts or low moisture conditions. Attempt to mow when adequate rainfall is available. Do not mow clover down to two inches or less. Mow 8-12 inch clover down to 4 or 5 inches.

What variety of clover do you have? Ladino clovers which are taller and have larger leaves than other white clovers, do not need frequent mowing unless weeds are a problem. The June and August mowings (in the absence of drought) will suffice for ladino. Intermediate white clovers (not as tall with smaller leaves) such as Durana or Patriot will benefit from frequent spring mowing during high growth conditions to allow light to penetrate to the base of white clover plants, which encourages productivity by increasing stolon (runners) production and “daughter” plants. This is the main method of white clover growth and reproduction. When spring intermediate white clover growth reaches 8-12 inches, mow down to 4 or 5 inches. In summer, under dryer conditions, allow it to bloom (it will do so profusely all summer long) then mow to rejuvenate the stand in late August.

As you can see, when to mow clover is a judgement call based mainly on how much weed competition is involved. An agronomist friend of mine maintained a productive stand of Durana and Patriot clover for 3 years without lime, fertilizer or mowing! I don’t recommend this, but it is a testament to the persistent nature of some of the new intermediate clovers.

One of the best clover reseeding fields I ever had, I didn't mow it at all, but disked it in early fall. It was crimson and white clover mixed, and it came back up in the fresh turned soil like I had broadcast it.

White clovers don't reseed themselves from seeds, they spread from stolons. Crimson clover, spreads from the seeds it produces. The common theme in all those articles were to mow to prevent weeds and grasses from taking over. Mowing broadleaf weeds, keeps them from going to seed, therefore, they can't spread. They will be gone after that year. To me, it makes sense to use herbicides, to kill grasses and weeds. Figure in time, diesel fuel,and compaction problems, and to me its a no brainer. I think a lot of people think the white heads on white clover is how it spreads, and thats not the case. Its your clover mow if you want, i'll leave that food for the deer.

That is the big selling point with Durana, most stolons per square ft. of all white clovers. I do like letting whites flower before cutting in the spring though.