HIgh Fence Hunting

Just wondering whar everybody on here thoght about them. If you have been to one what did you think?

The deer were no different from those outside the fence.

Except for larger antlers and bodies.

The ones I saw certainly weren't pets..........

I know some of you have been to one or have a comment on it.

I haven't been to one and don't expect to be invited to one anytime soon. I'd probably enjoy watching the animals they've grown there. Don't think I would care to hunt there.

They are legal. They should continue to be legal. If someone wants to hunt semi-wild livestock deer (depending on the size of the property), that's not much different from hunting free-ranging deer that have been manipulated to grow bigger antlers and bodies with intensive/expensive management practices IMO.

As long as they do no harm to our natural resources, it's really none of our business what they do behind their fences or on their huge exclusive but unfenced properties.

It's those who want our government to restrict the hunting rights and property rights of others who need to be watched very closely.

A buddy of mine up in Selma used to be a timber runner. He told me he was walkin a property after Ivan came through that bordered a high fenced property. A large tree fell across the fence and crushed the fence under it. It didn't lay the fence over. There was the widest trail he had ever seen goin across there. I personally have never hunted a high fence nor will I ever. I believe in fair chase and in my opinion, a few thousand acre enclosure is no different from a cage. If you do happen to kill a Boone & Crockett buck inside one, you wouldn't be able to get him in the books.

I don't agree with you.

Most mature bucks can outsmart and evade most hunters in very small areas. If they were fed regularly by humans and became accustomed to them, their instincts would likely change, however.

I don't think that is much more likely to happen in an enclosure consisting of a few thousand acres unless there is a lot of up-close supplemental feeding going on. Supplemental feeding of free-ranging deer can have the same effect on reducing their avoidance of humans. That's why food plots are effective in drawing deer into the open to make shooting them easier.

What makes it a cage hunt. If the deer in the enclosure are not handled by humans they are just as wild as the free range ones. The difference in a high fence is the landowner can control what the deer eat and see that they don't leave his property to be shot by some jack leg that shoots the first legal buck they see. They grow them to maturity to offer the hunter a buck he probably normally would never have a chance to see.

If they can't escape and roam freely, they're not wild. They're caged.

Period.

any military reservation is fenced on all sides period. If you have ever hunted one you would know they are tough to hunt based on pressure.

Clem,



Would you walk in the cage and pet a leopard at the zoo?

All of the fenced in areas I've seen have been small tracts. They do feed the deer on a regular basis. They would have to I would think. As for comparing high fence hunting to a cage, I have too much love and respect of the Whitetail Deer to ever hunt them out of an enclosure. I can't justify killing a deer like that. In my mind, it's like they are in a cage. If I screw up on a mature buck, I know he's not going anywhere if he is in a high fence, therefore I can easily find him again and pattern him again if he changes his patterns. If I screw up on one in a unrestricted area, who's to say that deer wont move out of the area. More than likely he wouldn't, but I am much more inclined not to screw up hunting free range bucks than high fenced ones. That's one of the reasons why I like to hunt public land. It presents a challenge. In my opinion, the greatest hunting challenge in Alabama is to harvest a MATURE whitetail buck. They are the smartest animal in the woods. If you cage em up in a high fence, you might as well hunt cattle in a pasture. Disagree with me all you want to, you can't change my mind. I will preach this opinion of mine until the day I die as if it were a quote from the Bible itself.

Does putting a fence around the property really change that??

You may not be giving them as much credit as they are actually due.

It does change that because he doesn't have a chance to escape and move somewheres else. If you have a buck you can't kill that is in a high fence, and you knew he was a hoss, and you knew you had him and he wasn't going anywhere, what would you do? Most people would run dogs. There's nothing wrong with that, but in a high fence? Come on. Most people would get greedy. You can only imagine what those people would do. Think of fish in an enclosed net. Sooner or later, as the net gets smaller, you will get the fish. You have enough people, you can push deer out of anywhere. The buck doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell. But, the fish can jump out of a net. There are plenty of holes deer can go under in some high fenced areas. I've seen some bucks can easily get under.

I'd never hunt one. I'd rather shoot a doe with a bow on a WMA that I've scouted and found my own spot more than some manipulated deer zoo being told where to go and sit. That's just me.

Redstone Arsenal isn't fenced on all sides. FT Bragg, NC wasn't. Ft Dix, NJ wasn't. Warner-Robbins AFB, GA isn't.

No, but it would be pretty easy to drill his ass with my rifle as he lay there in the pen wouldn't it?

No way would I take pleasure in shooting any animal behind high fence. Thats just the way I feel and have no problems with anyone hunting the way they want as long as its legal .

No high fence for me.

Didn't say anything about shooting him. Clem says he ain't wild. You say you wouldn't pet him. Is he wild or not??

Zoo animals aren't wild.

Here Kitty Kitty

Pet this then:

How about this guy. He's in a cage.

Is he wild??

Wild or free???

Gee, we can do this too.

If somebody wants to buy a trophy in a pen, that's fine by me. However, I wish there were tagging laws in place that required a big friggin hole to be drilled in both antlers before the head could be released into the public. Place a metal tag (like Ohio's) through the holes and we would all know where these trophies came from. I couldn't care less about how someone wants to spend their money, but these bucks shouldn't be allowed to be passed off as free ranging as they sometimes are. Just my two cents. CD.

Sometimes cages just make them wilder:

They are no different at all other than most now are the a product of artificial insemination, bottle fed as fawns, under veterinarian care, around human contact daily. No difference at all.

Good point!

Most people manage "their" deer herd by utilizing a buffer zone of several thousand acres around them. A fence is nothing more than a buffer zone between land owners. If the deer have alot of human contact...they will become less wild than free ranging deer. If they do not have a lot of human contact...they are wild as ever!!!!

Therefore, the wild-or-not deer herd is totally up to the landowner.

I've been going to a fenced lodge in Wilcox County for years and love it!!!

I'm neutral on the subject. As long as it's legal, I don't give a rat's ass what someone else does.
Would I go as a guest if I was invited? Hell ya, I love shooting deer.

I'd go.

Many of the people tha have posted in this thread have NEVER visited a high-fence hunting property. They also have no idea as to the esccape behaviors of whitetail deer.

But, that's fine.
It is not my place to judge them.

The fences are built more to keep 'unwanteds' out than anything else.

High fence hunting is for Pu$$ies..... Or shall I say High Fence killing since it's actually NOT hunting...

It makes a huge difference as to what size place is being fenced in and what the particular set up is like. Thousands of acres enclosed by just one outside perimeter fence; deer that haven't been shipped in from deer farms; and aren't totally dependent on humans for all their food; I'd agree the presence of a high fence around the place probably makes little difference.

That said, most of these places are not that benign. The deer are semi-domesticated, totally dependent on humans for survival, raised like cattle, and enclosed in a small enough area that John J. Gottrocks the III will be pretty much assured a shot after his check clears.

I don't advocate it being made illegal and if it floats your boat knock yourself out. I just take issue with it being called hunting. We used to occasional slaughter a hog on my grandfathers farm but we didn't call it a hunting trip.

Not my cup of tea but if I ever get the urge to do something like this I guess I'll just go shoot one of dads cows. About the same challenge most of these places present.

No he isn't wild. You seem to be under the impression that wild is an all or nothing deal. Obviously you are under the impression if you can't hold an animal in your lap and pet it then it's totally wild. Don't know where you got that definition of tame vs wild but I gotta tell you it is just about the most sub imbecilic, moronic, complete and utter dumb@$$ definition of what is or isn't wild that I have ever heard anyone espouse. And you are making yourself look laughably bad by supporting it in a public forum. There are many degrees of domestication or "tameness" with animals. The bulls in my fathers pasture are domesticated animals but since I doubt any would tolerate me throwing a saddle over their backs that makes them "wild" in your book. LOL!

Where did you learn all you know about animals? Romper Room? Sesame Street? LOL! Lord have mercy.

Another year, same thread and high fenced deer still ain't hunting.

AMEN!

Todd,


I didn't. Those are your words.

So you aren't the one who implied that not being able to pet a leopard at the zoo established it as a truely "wild" animal?

Trust me, I hate to stand up for 49r's position but I believe his point is that just because it has a "cage" around it, does not make it a "tame" animal as some on here believe "high fenced" deer are. I've been in plenty of high fences and most deer are as wild as any outside of the fence. Your point that it all depends on how big a fence and how the animals were grown, is the most valid point.

Wild to me does not necessarily indicate tame or maliciously aggressive.

Wild, IMO, means free-ranging. A hog in a cage at the barn can eat you or nuzzle. But it isn't wild. It's captive.

If you want to shoot animals inside a fence that cannot escape, knock yourself out. Whether it's 40 acres or 4,000, if they are unable to get outside of that fence and roam freely then they are captive. They're not free-ranging.

But unless anything changes, it's legal to do so. Have at it.

I do not like the idea of fenced hunting, period. However it is dangerous for hunters to be divided. If you think you are taking the high moral ground by saying that you would never kill a deer in a fence then, dont use a high-powered rifle or a coumpound bow, dont plant food plots, dont climb up high in a tree unless you can do it barefoot, dont use any doe estrous scent. All of these things are advantages for the hunter. I get tired of people snubbing their nose at a certain form of hunting. Some of the same guys that hunt their deer behind a fence dont think you should be able to run your dogs anymore.

Im going on my first high fence "hunt" next fall. Might like it, might not, but I'm not gonna preach how awful it is until I try it.

Good luck on your hunt Keith.

Like I said starting out, I don't care to hunt in an enclosure. I don't doubt that some deer in some enclosures are as wild as the deer I like to hunt, and some are nearly tame. I don't care to sit by food plots waiting to shoot highly managed deer either. But my preferences should not be forced on other hunters who like those things.

I believe in freedom. We all have a contract with the other people in our state that we should always keep in mind. It protects us when others would like to force their preferences on us. One of the provisions of that contract defines the role of our state government. Any time a new law or rule is being considered, it should be measured by this definition of that role:

Constitution of Alabama 1901


Would a government ban on hunting within an enclosure fit the definition of the role of our goverment in our contract with each other? I don't think it would.

Good luck on your hunt next fall. Most people are scared of change and therfor don't know what its like to hunt a high fence. Most probably can't afford it. If its big enough and the deer have very little human encounters iits no different maybe harder. When we go to Iowa and hunt the small woodlots its no different. The deer have nowhere to go.

Bullcrap.

They may have to run across a field, but they can escape.

High fence shooting should fall under the PT Barnum saying. I think most everyone knows the saying.

Wonder how hard it would be to kill a deer bedded close to the fence? Get 5 or 6 guys and drive him toward the fence. Yeah, its the same as fair chase. Its legal and I have no problem with it but dont try and tell me it is the same kind of hunting. It ain't for me and "afford" has nothing to do with it.

In a 2,000 acre High Fence, how many deer do you think bed up next to the fence?

IF, one decided to, how many of the hunters on here have the skills to sneak up on him? LOL

Highways, Rivers, bluffs, airports and such all act as boundaries. I have spent a good bit of time in a couple of High Fences. One in particular is just over 2,000 acres. You RARELY see the fence and the game is as wild as anywhere I've ever been. As a matter of fact, I had been to it several times before I ever SAW a deer!!!
True story!

I'm not saying the deer act any differently but the hunting is not the same as free range. If I over pressure a free range deer he can leave my property no matter how big. You can pressure a fenced deer all you like but he CANT leave. There is a reason why the record books won't allow fenced deer and it is a very good reason. It may be hard but it ain't the same.

I don't like the record books.

I don't like the way people want to know a buck's "score" either. In fact, I've never cut a bucks head off to hang on my wall. That's not my idea of the right reason to hunt.

I don't like to get his picture before I see him in the woods.

Just me. Just sayin'.

We don't need to turn my preference into rules and call it the only "right" way to hunt.

I have a friend who is getting ready for a trip to MX for a trophy whitetail hunt. His hunt cost $4000 w/o any of the extras, travel or license. The guide has sent him numerous pictures of a 180" buck he has targeted for him. He sees him very regularly.....but, my buddy has basically already 'paid for him'.....so he is off limits. This is on a very large free-range ranch with very limited access and pressure.

Now, by the definitions provided above, his traveling down there, climbing into a truck with a guide and being drove to the stand, sat with while he is there (baby-sitted to make sure he shoots the right deer), and then shooting the deer when he comes out to eat on what will probably be a corned sendero, is more FAIR-CHASE than to hunt in an area that happens to have a high fence over a mile away in each direction????

Has to be; because the deer WILL be eligible for the 'Record Book'!

Absurd!

How or why would it be harder? I'd love to hear the logic to back that up. If any exists.

I also hate to see these lame @$$ slippery slope divided we fall warnings that always get dragged out as a last resort by the pen hunter supporters in these debates. There is absolutely nothing about my or any other like minded persons opinion on high fence places that is of any benefit to PETA or any other group of anti hunting nuts. That is one of those comments that sounds good on the surface but falls apart to utter crap upon close examination. What's the scenario here? I dislike pen hunting so I go vote with PETA to ban all hunting? Really? You think? Or some guy who's pen hunt operation closed down due to negative public opinion runs and joins Greenpeace to spite people like me who didn't care for his place? Really? That seems plausible to you guys? LOL! Peel off the tinfoil hats guys.

I and virtually every anti high fence guy in this thread have stated for the record that we do not advocate making this illegal. I would not vote to make it illegal and quite frankly can't see how it could be made so without setting a precedent that would also shut down all farming of any animals. Because at it's core it's basically just deer farming. It's no more likely to be made illegal than it is for it to be made illegal for a farmer to slaughter a hog or sell a cow. I just don't consider it hunting the way most of these places are set up and run.

If you wanna go buy you an Alabama pen raised 160 class buck, fine. After all once he's on your wall you can make up any story you want to go along with him. No one will be able to prove you shot a glorified cow. Hey you can even delude yourself into thinking it was the same as shooting a wild one that size in Alabama. Maybe one day you will condition yourself to believe it a little. If you believe it totally from the get go however..... well that's just sad.

Im not saying high fence or guided hunts should be illegal or that fence hhunting is not a challenge. I am saying its not the same as free range. your friend has every right to go on that guided shoot and I have no problem with it either but it ain't the same either. As a matter of fact the only skill you need on a guided hunt is the ability to make the shot.

Yes you can domesticate deer without a fence. It's just that most of these places fence in their prize bulls, err, I mean bucks. LOL!

For all the anti-fence people on this thread, have you every gone out state on a deer hunt? Say a hunt in the midwest?

If so, why did you go? If not, do you consider it "cheating" to the rest of Alabama hunters?

Do you think it is fair that deer in the midwest (iowa, ohio, kansas, nebraska, etc.) have a huge advantage in genetics and nutrition over Alabama deer?

How do you grow 150" deer in Alabama consistently without a high fence?

I would love to go up north and hunt.... By myself . My enjoyment comes from doing my own hunting. we have had this discussion before and you won't convince anyone that high fence and guided hunts are the same as free range and unguided hunting. Sure there are similarities but it ain't the same.

Let them get to be more than 2.5 years old without dying of lead poisoning because "my neighbor would shoot them" or "I don't care about horns" or "You cain't tell me how to hunt!" or ... well, because maybe just allowing young animals to get some age on them wouldn't hurt anything now and then?

You missed one important word there, Clem!



You are really spot-on about people needing trigger restraint!
And, the improved age will definitely add inches!
Heck, the improved age structure will help the genetics and make hunting better, as well.

But, the current timber practices and greatly reduced agricultural areas just do not provide the adequate nutrition for this.

We are NOT in the agricultural mid-west!

I have bow hunted in Illinois 4 times. But never with a guide or really even an outfitter. Three of the trips were just with friends on peoples land that they knew. Last trip we paid for access to a farmers place. Every trip however we did our own scouting, choose our own spots, and hung our own stands.

Frankly I don't see what your question has to do with high fence hunting. The deer we hunted, and sometimes killed, were definately not domesticated or inside a fence.

I wonder how common some of you guys think 150 inch deer are even in a place like illinois or iowa? Even 140 inch deer aren't common. They are more prevalent but they are still genetic freaks. It is all relative. I would say that killing a 130 inch deer in bama is equivalent to a 150 inch deer in the mid west.

Todd, you probably werent around but a few years back snapper and I had this same discussion. He got upset when I said the only skill required to kill a deer on a guided hunt was the ability to make the shot. I dont know how anyone could argue anything else unless you call being able to follow the direction the guide points you a skill.

I mentioned that hunters shouldnt be divided, I dont think my point is lame at all. People are naturally narrow minded and like to do things the way they were raised, the way there daddy taught them. It seems to me that a lot of people on here think that there is only one way to hunt, my way. I am just saying dont be so closed minded. This isnt a debate about morals or God. Its just deer hunting.I think we should all lighten up.

I've got another question.

How many deer over 150"s have ever been killed off the lease/club/land you hunt?

There are a lot of people on here that hunt a wide variety of properties, some VERY good, some VERY bad. Most are in between. Only on the best properties in Alabama can you consistently grow deer over 140"s. A few might can grow 150's, but they are rare. How many properties that you hunt can grow these type of deer? Again, I don't mean one deer every 10 years, I mean a couple ever year. Even with good hunter management, most deer in this state won't ever be "huge". If you let a deer get to 5.5 years old, he will most likely be MUCH better than he was at 2.5 years old. But, even so, most won't be 150" deer.

For someone who wants to grow monster bucks consistently in Alabama, and has the money to do it, a high fence is really the only way to do it.

Notice I seem to be talking about growing monsters, not hunting them. Because, most of the people who have a high fence are as interested in growing the deer as they are shooting them, probably more.

I agree, Snapper.

The people that I personally know that are associated with High Fences absolutely LOVE whitetailed deer. They are fascinated by them and have a ton of respect for them!

Most of the people that are so adamantly opposed to them would change their viewpoint if they were financially able to afford that type of management. It is simply a method whereby you can control your management efforts more effectively instead of being at the mercy of the policies of your neighbors.

Both sides have valid points. They just choose different methods to achieve their goals.

Yeah to me going on a hunt where someone else has done the scouting, hung the stands, and tells you where to sit each day, is a kinda like when you were 4 years old and your dad would put a cork on your line, tie on a hook, bait it, cast it out, hook a fish and then hand you the pole to reel it in. Fun when I was 4 years old? Sure, but as a grown man I'd find that kinda fishing trip a little condescending and embarrassing. I feel the same about hunting that way too.

money has nothing to do with it. Its a personal choice. Neither position is wrong but they aren'tthe same either and the fact that some are trying to sell it that way tells me that they are a little insecure about it.

I dont have a problem with it. Just dont try to tell me its the same thing as a guy who does it on his own. Whats funny is to hear a guy come back from a guided hunt and say how hard they hunted.

IF I could afford a large peice of prime property, and the activities of my 'neighbors' created a severe hindrance to my management efforts.......I would have a fence put up in a minute!

I am VERY secure in that! LOL

Good fences make good neighbors.

I hunt unfenced property now. But I wouldn't hesitate at the chance you hunt a fence. I don't care what any of you think of the buck if I was fortunate enough to shoot one. Seems to me it's still hunting. I'm going in pursuit. I agree with Hogwild on this.

For the record. I go bass fishing often at a paid lake. I pay a daily rate, and I go and catch bigger fish that I have the chance to catch on the Mobile Delta. I love it. On windy days, it's still hard fishing. If you don't know how to fish, you still won't wear em out. I KNOW they are there, and that to me makes the pursuit that much more fun. I had days where I got shut out, and days I've caught 25 or more 5 pounders.

I don't think anyone is talking about hunting a 20 acre fence full of big bucks calling it hunting. Certainly we know that on 2000-4000 acres with 10 hunters or less, there are PLENTY of places for deer to hide, you will still have to hunt them to kill them legally. The ones you'd want to shoot anyways.

I have a limited amount of time to hunt. I want to have the best chances to hunt good bucks. If that means having a fence around a property to maximize efforts, I wouldn't have a problem with it if I could afford it.

Bill, honestly, why are you so worried about where others hunt and how others hunt as long as it is legal? What impact does it have on you if someone kills a deer in a fence, or on a fully guided hunt in Texas, the Midwest, or Canada? How many guided hunts have you been on, and how many high fences have you been in? I'm just curious where've you gotten first hand experience with it to form your opinions, and why you even care to have an opinion about it. I'll leave it at that.

Every year, or maybe every few months, there is a debate about high fences, and every time we end up right back in the same spot we started.

Wtf? I could care less how anyone hunts. why do you care if some of us dont want to hunt in a high fence or on guided hunts? Its been suggested that money is the only reason we dont . That is laughable.

As long as it's legal and you're not shooting in my direction, I don't care how anyone hunts.

A 150 class buck in Alabama should be rare. You guys have been asking a lot of questions. Let me ask one. What makes a buck with big horns a coveted prize? Can monster buck horns be ground into a powder that cures diseases? Nope. Can they be transformed into a miracle fuel that will power your car or heat your house for a year? Nope. They are coveted because they are rare. An animal with the genetic potential to grow really big horns is sort of rare to start with. Then a deer with those genetics that lives long enough to fulfill his potential has probably done so by being a pretty reclusive and savvy animal that is rarely seen by human eyes in daylight. Add those things together and it means killing an animal like that in the wild is something to be proud of.

Now you throw up a fence. Truck you in some genetic freak brood bucks or some does artificially inseminated by some prize brood buck. There goes the genetic rarity. Use the fence to keep buck numbers concentrated far higher than they would be in any free range situation. Shelter your herd behind a fence for 5 years waiting for your prize bio-engineered animals to reach their optimal potential. There goes the need for any of them to be reclusive or cautious in order to reach maturity. And?

Congratulations!!!! You have now officially stripped away everything that made that animal a coveted and difficult prize to kill. You have a large pen full of huge bucks that are neither rare, smart or conditioned by normal circumstances into patterns of reclusive behavior.

Paying to shoot a huge buck at one of these places is, to me, like buying some ex jocks Super Bowl ring off E-bay. Yeah, it's pretty but buying it doesn't mean that "you" won a Super Bowl.

I'm fine with high fencing hunting. If a fellow has fun hunting legally...that's all that matters to me.

I've never hunted a high fenced area...but would if given the chance.

I forgot to post....I hunt for the fun and sport of it. Antler size really doesn't mean that much to me...it's the hunt and just being outdoors.

Well said Todd1700, I'm glad someone here has an understanding of how these places actually operate.

Its all hunting to me by different means. Not everyone likes to make man drives, spot and stalk or sitting in a tree stand all day thats what makes each of us who we are. In the end hunting is hunting.

i'd love to have my place fenced in. everybody around here shoots them out of their back doors though. if i had neighbors who were interested in managing their land a little better, i prob wouldn't. i guess they feel like they're getting something for nothing when they shoot a little six or eight that wanders onto their three acre lot.
i wouldn't think twice about taking my kids to a high fenced place, but i prob wouldn't myself, unless it was mine.

Todd 1700,



You only have to look as far as the definition of "covet" to find the answer. Wanting something someone else has and wishing they wanted what you have.

If you see hunting as a competitive sport, you're missing out on the real pleasures hunting can give you. You can hunt within the boundaries of your own property or lease and find those pleasures if you're willing to forget about what's beyond those boundaries.

And who said anything about horns?

Maybe some people miss seeing 40-50 deer an afternoon?

Try THAT one nowadays!!!LOL

What is appealing to some may not be to others. If it makes you happy and it is legal you should do it.

I too, would go on a guided small mouth fishing trip in a heart beat. I love to catch em but not enough to put in the time and effort to do it all on my own.

Hunting mature Bucks is something totally different for me. It is a competiotion with
me. A Competition between me and the deer. It is something that developed over time, with me, and I would not get as much joy out of killing a 190" deer in Illinois on a guided hunt as I do with killing a 140" deer in Alabama doing my own hunting.

There is nothing wrong with doing it either way and everyone should hunt to their own standards but don't lump it all together and try to tell me that it is all the same.

It should be legal to fence, guide, and feed deer in any manner a person chooses and the only limitations to those things should be put in place by the law makers and the practicing individuals conscience and self imposed standards.

If you are hunting for the right reasons and by your own conscience you should not care weather me or anyone else thinks your style of hunting or your trophy is a big accomplishment.

bill most people that say they wouldn't get as excited about a 190 in Illinois because a guided hunt or high fence have no clue what it feels like to harvest such an animal. I took such deer this year and have killed 4 deer between 130 to 145 in alabama and while i was estactic about those a 190inch buck is a freak of nature seldom seen by hunters and harvested by less than 3% of all hunters.

Your wrong, but whatever. What may make you happy would do nothing for me.

I think I'd like hunting with Bill. Well said, Bill.

The deer on our farm is more tame than the deer on the high fenced ranch in Texas I hunted.

All high fenced properties are not created equal.

But, we have evidence provided by SEVERAL people who have never actually set foot inside of a High Fenced Hunting Area that say the deer are all tame and will eat out of your hand.

What makes you think we will believe someone who has actually been in one?????

I hear that crap all the time from people who have never set foot on a well managed "High Fence" area.

Frankly, I chalk those comments up to ignorance.

I've never done meth, and I don't plan to try it.
I've never slept with a man, and I don't plan to try it.
I've never fried bacon naked, and I don't plan to try it.
I've never hunted caged animals, and I don't plan to try it.
If they can't leave, it's a pen ... that is all.

Well, since it's been well-established that boundaries are the problem.....and the size of the 'pen' doesn't matter..........you better go ahead and quit; cause I ain't heard of any mass exodus of deer swimming the Ocean!

Fleeing for miles is NOT a normal escape tactic of whitetailed deer. Nor is 'leaving'. If they 'leave' one property that is hunted, they just wind up on another! It ain't like they keep plat books handy anyway.....LOL

They normally hide right under most hunters (including myself) noses.

Well, why fence em then? You said they dont leave which leads me to believe the deer on adjoining properties wont leave either. should be no reason to fence animals that dont leave your property.

As I have already said several times, most fences are to fence OUT the 'unwanteds' and enhance the control of the animals harvested......not the other way around.

I have an Uncle that has recently high fenced his property his reasoning is he purchased over 500 acres of land paid biologist from Auburn to decide best management tatics for property planted for ten years and the worthless people around the property would pull up on the side of the road and turn their dogs loose on his property several times a week according to the guy that oversees the property so after all those years of money and management he put a stop to it

Speaking of pens, I know of a 150 acre former fox pen with an 10ft fence. The deer there are all but impossible to kill unless you drive them out. They can't get out due to the apron on top that will not allow them to jump out once they jump in.

Nothing at all "tame" about those deer.

No doubt though, there are many pens out there that have deer with tags in their ears and so forth.

As I said, not all are created equal.

swamper i agree with you on everything you have said on here. Seems you know your subject well.

You guys do realize that there is a difference between a breeder pen, and a high fence hunting operation don't you? Those deer with those tags in there ears in that little 3 acre enclosure? Those are breeder deer in a breeder pen. They aren't hunted, they are bred. And most of them are worth a whole lot more money as breeders than as shooters. There are several breeders in this state that have breeder pens but don't have high fence operations. They make their living buying/selling/trading deer and semen. And there are a lot of high fence hunting operations that do no breeding, and have no breeding pens or breeding stock.

You are somwhat right snapper. I worked in a 1,200 acre high fence ranch and when the first fawns started to drop we would get all the guides ans staff and try to catch and tag all the fawns we could. The reason we did this is so whille hunting if you saw one of them you could age it based on the color of tag. We could't even come close to tagging all the fawns but it gave us a starting point.

Are you saying there aren't any small fenced pens that allow shooting? In this state or anywhere else?

Enough semen can be collected off the buck, to continue to breed 100 years after it is dead and gone. There are just window dressing. And once they hit a certain point of lower value they are placed as a shooter buck.

Been in more than one "breeder" pen. Big difference. However, you'd be amazed how many deer are killed every year in pens less than 10 acres.

Money talks

There is a HUGE difference in a 'pen' and a high fenced hunting area.

I don't have a specific acreage to throw out there......but, if it feels like you are in a pen......it is probably too small.

Danny,

You are wasting you time with this. People that have no idea about some thing are usually the ones that bitch the loudest about not wanting it happen.

What is the BIGGEST argument point on fencing a place is MONEY.

Most people can't afford to do it so they think it's evil, or stupid, or lazy, or something like that. If you hunt a fenced place you can't kill one on a lease. If you hunt a large lease you can't kill one on a small lease. If you hunt a small lease you can't kill one on a management area. If you hunt in a shooting house you can't kill one in a climber. If you hunt in a climber you can't kill one on the ground. Don't even start talking about Dog hunting.

It's funny, but a dead deer is a dead deer and it don't matter where it came from. These guys are still so bundled up in the "KILLING" that they have forgotten that we are HUNTING. It's a social thing. Not a killing thing. If it's all about killing then you need a new hobby. If you are SO bunched up on YOU killing a deer then you are doing it for SELFISH reasons anyway. Hey, it ain't all about YOU.

STOP bitching about how some one else does it and just enjoy each others company while we are HUNTING and trying to enjoy Gods Creation.


Outback, are you not trying all that stuff cause you are afraid you might like it.......

I can't speak for everyone else but I don't think I have seen anyone imply that someone who chooses to hunt a high fence can't kill free range deer only that it is different. I don't know why anyone would even argue that it is the same.

I do notice that no one replied when I asked if very small enclosures existed that allowed shooting. Of course they know they exist.... in our state and others. I know of one that is 4 acres.

Mackdaddy, who says that if we only knew what it felt like to kill a big fenced deer then we would do it, has a post in the classifieds offering a Missouri fenced hunt where you pay based on what type deer you want to shoot. He says No KILL No PAY. How can you guarantee that on a large enclosure?

Those sentiments do exist...and as u said it is often a product of jealousy. However, that isn't everybody's reason...and it sure isn't mine. I've been invited to hunt in two large enclosures (pens), and have turned them both down....not because I didn't want to gawk at the giants they held, but because I'd rather spend my time hunting my little lease down the road with a clear conscience. IMO the worst thing that's ever happened for the high fence hunters' reputation is the Outdoor Channel. In one of my more recent examples(don't recall the show's name)...I saw some jackass in an apartment-like ground blind watch a 200"+ deer stumble up a wide open dirt road and stand inside 30 yards long enough to be missed...then, on the second shot, hit high in the hindquarter.They miraculously found the "monarch"...probably by walking the fenced perimeter. They blathered on and on about what a great bow kill it was...it was a travesty that the ignorant public will see as a strike against hunters - specifically bowhunters - not high fences.
I'd never argue high fencing should be illegal though...no one should be told how high their fence can be...it's just too subjective. One question I would ask is if anyone knows of a study on...or has personal experience with....the supposed "dead zone" that results around a fences exterior. I can picture it happening but I've never had one for a neighbor, so I'm really just guessing.

Bill there are places that have free range that don't require you to pay if you don't kill anything. Your ignorance on this type of hunting is noted. If you ever save up enough pennies you could come hunt and see what I'm talking about. I can gurantee that the deer in the high fence area in missouri i was referring to are as wild as the ones you hunt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkqxEyBHe6c
A look at the creation of these trophies. This is like democratic deer hunting where everyone deserves a trophy if they earn it or not.

Brother, your arrogance is noted. You know nothing of my finances and yet you assume I couldn't afford a pen hunt? its a choice and obviously you can't understand that some have standards you dont. Either that or your insecurity is causing you to try and make it a money issue so you can feel better about the fact that some would never consider your type of hunting.

Is deer hunting steadily evolving into pay-as-you-go hunting ? Will deer hunting finally evolve into large, private reserves with a fee to hunt ?

Mind you...I'm not stating this...I'm asking this. I don't know.

Mission, Texas is dam close to that... My brother lives there and guides on FT Hood. he says it is almost impossible to go to a farm and ask permission to hunt without paying something.

MD,

What military reservations did you hunt that were totally enclosed?

For starters pelham range in alabama the former Ft. mClellan and Ft. Campbell Kentucky are just a few i hunt or have hunted that were fenced.

we have a property owner near our property that dicided to put his property in high fence. At first I thought that it would increase the number of deer on our property and it did. Then he sold his land to someone with even more money and that guy started buying land and has now put more than 1000 acres in rfence with I believe that they baited up the deer and started to draw in the deer before they finally put up the last section right before gun season started. We have noticed a dramatic reduction in deer numbers and the fence have changed the natural travel routes of the deer. The deer use to travel across our property to get to the large agriculture fields that are now inside the high fence. I believe our deer numbers will recover but from talking to other landowners that have experieced this it will take about 2 years. I personal would never fence my property just because I like going into the woods with the expectations of what could be out there. Eventually he willget tired of seeing the same old deer and shooting the same old class structure and he will sell it to someone with more money than sense.

This continued vein of "the bitchers can't afford it ... it's about money" is a bunch of bullchit.

NOT everyone is against killing deer in an enclosed fence because of money. For some, it's an ethical issue. If an animal cannot escape and is not a free-range animal then they don't want to pursue it.

Well said Clem.

12 pages...really? 12 pages? LOL!

Flychucker, Thanks for your reply. Hunting appears to be steadily and quickly heading that way here, too.

----------------------

In my experience, either you are denied permission to hunt a place...or...you have to join a club or lease land, or pay a landowner a fee to hunt. Gaining permission to hunt a place without paying is getting much rarer. Simply asking and gaining permission is getting to be a thing of the past.

I noticed this trend coming when the commercialization of hunting began; the celebrities, tv shows, advertising hunting equipment, etc.

I know it causes some folks to go into knee-jerk spasms of anger when money is mentioned in a seemingly derogatory manner, but: Privately owned and managed, pay-to-hunt packages will ultimately become the sole way to hunt...and will spell the ultimate downfall of Traditional American hunting. Only a select group of people will be able to enjoy hunting in decades to come. Hunting on pay-to-go corporations will require a payed Guide, the employ of private Biologist/Game Warden staff, and the cost will be prohibitive to average salaried folks.

The predictable but hum-drum response of, 'we have WMA's for the general public to hunt' doesn't cut the mustard. Neither will predictable responses of, 'well, join Obama and the Socialists if you don't like Free Enterprise.' Neither does the usual response of, 'save up your money for these hunting trips.' Many people are barely drudging by, financially, month-to-month, and cannot save up an extra penny. WMA's will become inundated with hordes of hunters unable to join the exclusive hunting society due to the high fees. They will eventually fail, too. (drastically less license fees)

Maybe the people who have 'high-fenced' hunting areas already established...are light years ahead on the coming trend...and are on to something even more profitable in the future ?

Hey, I'm not griping nor am I veiling a criticism...I'm purely speculating on the future. If high-fenced areas and pay-as-you-go hunting is inevitable and for the good---it's inevitable.

I'm only wondering how the average and below average salaried hunters' desires to enjoy hunting will be handled with only cost prohibitive places available ?

May be true, BUT if the current landowner breakdown maintains anywhere near what it is then: 1) average landowner size will stay "small", less than 300 acres say 2) 80% of the state will stay in private landowner hands 3) timber company lands will still focus on growing timber and be poor wildlife habitat. If these stay similar to today, the guides, biologists, warden, etc will not be employed by the average landowner. Most of the private lands I know are owned so that the landowner can hunt and take friends. I believe this will stay as the standard.

"bullchit"??

Well you make sure and scare all the deer you see so they can "escape" BEFORE you shoot at em.

The loudest bitchers on here are the ones that have NO idea about what they are bitching about and it's always a "moral" or "ethics" issue with them.

Remember, there are immoral and unethical hunters outside fences too.

I'd say, just quit bitchin. If you don't want to do it, then just don't do it. You don't have to make yourself feel better by classifying as wrong or unethical. Hell, Outhouse even compared it to being gay..... WOW

I have often wondered if any here would consider a 70,000 acre enclosure (like one in Idaho)a "deer pen"? My guess is they would if they were hunting in one corner?

Sounds like good advice. Try it!

Some of us just prefer free-ranging, non-caged animals as part of the hunting experience. Period.

Good Post !!!

Without enclosures, where would all the qdm research be done??

Who are food plots and shooting houses for??

OK, Im very opened minded on this subject. this is what I will do. bucksville how about you take me on a hunt at your place for 2days. then I will tell everyone what I think. Pros and cons. i have never been on a hunt in a fenced in place, and I would be lying if I said I didnt want to give it a shot.

I can take you hunting on my place, but it ain't got no high fence on it.

I used to have a family place that was fenced, but I sold it 2002. I have hunted in MANT different high fences and on MANY different free range places and there IS a difference.

The high fence places all had couple things in common. They had better deer and you couldn't tell them from the ones that where out side the fence. They didn't have as many poacher problems and they had the opportunity to let their deer reach their potential growth if that is what the manager wanted.

There you go. Finally someone who will admit that it is not the same as free range hunting.

Nope, not the same, better!!

Depends on what you want and what your standards are as to weather its better or not. If you want it to be easier to kill a larger antlered deer then I am sure that person would say better. I didn't say easy I said easier.

bill,



So, what's your problem with him hunting under his standards on his own land and you doing the same?

I have no problem at all with it. Just don't tell me that there is no difference.

I took a guy that thought like Bill one time on my place. He was giving me a rash of chit about how easy it was to kill a deer in a "pen". He was a good bow hunter with some nice bucks he had arrowed. Not a novice or a goober.

I put him up a tree on the edge of a trail leading into the green field and he shot his whole quiver of arrows before he got a doe shot. He was dealing with 8 or 9 sets of eyes watching him rather than one or two sets.

Our deer where as wild as anybodies deer. They could escape just as easy as any other deer. We NEVER ran em up in the corner to shoot them even though that is what some people think happens.

As far as my "standards", I'd say they are at least as high as yours........... one reason I know that is I don't put down some thing or some one I don't know any thing about.

Well, there it is. Show me where I put you down. Also, I hate to nitpick but the guy you took wasnt doing his own hunting. All he was doing was shooting as you had done the hunting for him. I am having a hard time figuring out why someone would fence their property based on the things the proponents are saying. Most say it is to control and grow bigger deer but then I'm told that the hunting is the same with no better chance to kill a big deer. Then im told the hunting is actually harder and that an accomplished bow hunter has to shoot 8 or 9 times just to kill a doe because the deer are so plentiful and smart in high fences. So I guess people are fencing properties to make out more of a challenge to kill deer? I dont care how or why you hunt but dont keep trying to sale me on how superior and more difficult pen hunting is.

GEEZ

Bill, I don't think anybody is trying to sell you anything. All I'm saying is that for people (you or anybody else) to say is like shooting fish in a barrel or it shooting cows are obviously people that know nothing about it. Like I said earlier. There are some people that have even claimed it was like being gay, or even like being a deviate or some thing.

It's just a way to better manage your deer and allow them to get old enough to see what they will make. If a guy has several thousand acres, you don't really need a fence to do that or if you have good neighbors that use the same standards of management you like, you don't need a fence, and really you don't NEED a fence at all, but it is legal to do. It is also not "wrong or lazy or gay or sorry or crazy or immoral or sub standard" to do it.

I don't like Volvo's but any one that drives one is not a goober.

Been huntin' High fences and open range. Personally, I like the fences. Get to go home with nicer deer and racks, and it feels a lot safer without poachin' morons and a public free for all. Just need to have 5-10,000 acres fenced so its just like being open range. Then the experience is the same.

I think you are allowing your emotions to cloud your perception of what has been said. I haven't said that it makes it easy or that those who do it are any less of a hunter on animals that are free range. I have only said that it is different. Those that would not hunt in a fence have been told everything from it is the same to it is much harder. I have not seen anyone say that it should be illegal or that it is unethical. Those are things that the pro high fence guys have accused us of saying when it simply has not happened. Also, it is pretty clear to me that Mark was not saying high fence hunters are gay. He was making a point saying you dont have to try something to know it is not something you would like. I can say for sure that the high fence hunters posting in this thread are a very defensive lot.

If there is nothing sub standard about shooting a deer behind a fence, why can they not be entered into the Boone and Crockett record book?

Does P&Y allow more than a 60% let off on bows now? Lighted pins on the sight? Just saying that some of the "official" organizations might have their own agenda. If it's legal do it. IMO!

Not really a good argument. Why does b&c deduct score for antler the deer grew that is not perfectly symmetrical?

Imadeerhtr,

B&C does actually allow some animals to be entered into their book that come from an enclosure.

They will allow bison that come from two different places. One of them is in Arizona and the other is Custer State Park.

And like Bill said, why do they penalize a deer for growing an antler?

Bill,

I have seen these threads about pro and con fence hunting areas come and go on the board for years now. I said a while back that I would stay out of them because people like you put them down with no basis of fact to work with.

I am in the business of selling hunting trips. I will sale you a trip that is a free-range hunt or high-fence. It doesn't matter to me either way. As long is the enclosure is large enough and that it is a real hunting experience for the hunter and it is an ethical situation, I am not opposed to it. I have been to a few high fence places that I refused to work with but I have been to more free-range hunting operations that I refused to work with. Now you will likely say that my morals are low because I have been to, hunted, and guided on high-fence places. The number of beers I drank directly correlate with my morals.

That being said, your biggest bitch seems to be that it is different and don't anyone dare try to compare the two. That is a true statement but for a lot more reasons that you bring to the table and there is no reason for me to give those reasons to you because they have been mentioned above and you still won't see the point. Why do you have such a deep rooted hatred for this type of hunting?

You also have stated that the only challenge in going on a guided hunt is marksmanship. That there is no skill at all involved in taking an animal on a guided hunt. What happened to you on your last guided hunting trip that made you feel this way?

I have two direct questions for you that you have been asked before and I never saw where you answered them.

Bill, how many out of state or in state guided hunts have you been on?

Bill, how many high fence hunting operations have you been to?

You seem to have a lot of experience with both so I am just curious where your knowledge base comes from.

If you feel like the only right way to take a game animal is to stand naked in the middle of a field and throw rocks at them with your toes, have at it. No one here will say a word about it. Just don't try and tell others how they should or shouldn't hunt.

Bgh, show me one post I have made questioning the ethics our morals of anyone choosing to hunt an enclosure or go on a guided trip. This is obviously an emotionally driven topic for many of you as you have attributed quotes to me that I have not made. As far as the guided trips I have even said that I would and have gladly gone on a guided fishing trip since I love to catch them but I dont have the same passion for it that I do for deer hunting. I will say it one more time .... I dont care how any one else hunts but guided or fenced deer hunting is not for me and I dont care if it was free. That seems to be the part that is eliciting the venom from others. Why so much effort to change others minds who dont want to hunt that way? I have said that my standards are different I didn't say they were higher or that others were lower because of their chosen method of hunting. I know nothing of elk hunting but that is something I plan on doing in the near future. I know of no one who can teach me in the field so I will probably go on a guided trip when I do. If I love it and it consumes me like deer hunting has then I'll put the effort in to do it on my own since I dont get a lot of satisfaction letting someone else do my hunting for me. I hunted last week with my brother in law and he pointed me to my stands. If I had killed a monster I doubt I would have even had him mounted. I enjoyed being in the woods and seeing a different property but it would not have been the same for me as hunting my own lease. I'm not saying the way I feel is the right way or the only way it is just the way I am. hunting should be a very individual thing done for yourself so as long as its legal why worry what someone else thinks of your chosen method?

Let's try again.

I have two direct questions for you that you have been asked before and I never saw where you answered them.

Bill, how many out of state or in state guided hunts have you been on?

Bill, how many high fence hunting operations have you been to?

I will gladly answer so you do the same. I have never been to a lodge one time and a friend payed for it. I have never been in a high fence.

Now, show me where I questioned anyone who hunted either way.

"Bgh, show me one post I have made questioning the ethics our morals of anyone choosing to hunt an enclosure or go on a guided trip." I didn't quote you or say you did say it. I said you will likely say it.

"This is obviously an emotionally driven topic for many of you as you have attributed quotes to me that I have not made." I didn't quote you unitl now.

"As far as the guided trips I have even said that I would and have gladly gone on a guided fishing trip since I love to catch them but I dont have the same passion for it that I do for deer hunting." We aren't talking about fishing, we are discussing high fence hunting.

"I will say it one more time .... I dont care how any one else hunts but guided or fenced deer hunting is not for me and I dont care if it was free." How do you know it's not for you and if it isn't why do you care what someone else does?

"That seems to be the part that is eliciting the venom from others. Why so much effort to change others minds who dont want to hunt that way?" I could ask you the same question but if it is like the other questions I asked you, you likely won't answer them.

"I have said that my standards are different I didn't say they were higher or that others were lower because of their chosen method of hunting." You might not have said it but it was implied.

"I know nothing of elk hunting but that is something I plan on doing in the near future. I know of no one who can teach me in the field so I will probably go on a guided trip when I do." I will be glad to set you up on a guided elk hunt or do it yourself since that is what floats your boat.

"If I love it and it consumes me like deer hunting has then I'll put the effort in to do it on my own since I dont get a lot of satisfaction letting someone else do my hunting for me." Then why go on a guided hunt to begin with?

"I hunted last week with my brother in law and he pointed me to my stands. If I had killed a monster I doubt I would have even had him mounted." You will save lots of taxidermy that way.

"I enjoyed being in the woods and seeing a different property but it would not have been the same for me as hunting my own lease. I'm not saying the way I feel is the right way or the only way it is just the way I am. hunting should be a very individual thing done for yourself so as long as its legal why worry what someone else thinks of your chosen method?" I could ask you the same thing.

Bill, I want to be clear about this. I hold the middle ground on this debate. I have no problem with you or the way you think it should be done. I actually respect your stance, you hold your ground to your beliefs. However, you do have somewhat of a narrow mind set in the way your post come across.

"Im not saying high fence or guided hunts should be illegal or that fence hhunting is not a challenge. I am saying its not the same as free range. your friend has every right to go on that guided shoot and I have no problem with it either but it ain't the same either. As a matter of fact the only skill you need on a guided hunt is the ability to make the shot."

Do you actually believe the last sentence? Where did you get the knowledge to make a comment like that?

Yes, I believe that. If you go on a guided hunt where your stands have been hung and you are told where to sit and you are shown where to walk to your stand then what skill is required? you, snapper and bucksville have tried your best to equate my words with being against a persons right to hunt in any manner of their choosing but I have yet to see the proof. It would be pretty stupid and hypocritical of me to feel that way after admitting that I would use a guide for elk and fishing.

There are many kinds of "guided" hunts.

I've been on some where all it took was me holding steady and pressing the trigger. Then I went back to reading my book. That wasn't a "hunt" at all. It was a killing.

I've been on others where we helped our guide with pre-hunt planning, glassing, planning the stalk, etc. Other than him driving the vehicle, which we could have done, it wasn't any different than 3-4 guys out hunting and helping each other.

Clem, I guess I should have clarified. I am aware that you can go on everything from the guide holding your hand to a do it yourself hunt.

So in the hunting situation that Clem described, did that require any hunting experience?

That hollow thud you hear is my dead horse is getting beaten.........

Which one? The one where he was reading a book or the one where the guide was basically just a member of the hunting party? common sense tells you which one takes some hunting knowledge and which one does not. I understand not all booked hunts are equal. I notice bucksville chimed back in and he just like you have said I have said things or implied things I haven't. I guess since you have both went back and read my post and realized that I didn't say those things you are going to continue in this vein of questioning to try and get the reaction you are hoping for instead of admitting you were wrong.

The story gets better everytime i listen

Call it whatever you want, but its not hunting!!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I like the enjoyment of being in the woods and not dealing with narrow minded nuts that have a one track mind not matter how im hunting. Just sayin

Ya'll sure this isn't an Alabama/Auburn thread?
16 pages....really? LMAO!

The bottom line is this. Bill is a better, more morally superior hunter than anyone that hunts differently than he does. Can we all just recognize this and let this die?

It is pretty clear nobody is changing anyone's mind so it seems pointless to keep arguing. The folks that have never been around a high fence, or any type of guided hunt are still going to have there opinions of them, based upon their extensive experience. With their experience, what makes someone think that something they read on the internet is going to change their opinions?

Personally, I'm done with this. I'm going to go stand naked under a pine tree and throw rocks at deer with my toes. That is what real deer hunting really is all about. Anything else isn't the same.

Ill give you the same shot I gave the other two guys making false claims about what I said. Produce a single post where I made reference to any such claim. Hell, just show me where I said it was unethical or made a derogatory remark in regards to anyone who chooses to hunt a fence or go on a guided hunt . you guys like to run your traps and make accusations but you can't back up a single claim because the proof is right here in the thread. to this point I am assuming poor reading comprehension but anyone else who continues trying to misrepresent what I have said is simply a liar. I'm guessing insecurity and hurt feelings are behind most of the untruths.

High fence hunting is for lazy people that don't know how to hunt

Mr. Buckford there are women and young adults on here thats uncalled for keepyour ignorant comments to youself

Your right,it was a little harsh ...I changed it for you

Bill,

I still haven't quoted anything that you didn't say although you can't seem to get that. Maybe you are the one that needs to re-read my post.

Is this not a derogatory remark? Does a quote like this one not imply that anyone that has ever killed an animal on a guided hunt not require any hunting skills to do so?

"As a matter of fact the only skill you need on a guided hunt is the ability to make the shot."

I now remember why I stopped getting involved in these threads. Too many people that like to chime in on a subject that they have absolutely no experience with.

No. it makes no reference to what skills anyone possess only what is required. You know the difference in guided , semi guided and non guided hunts since you are in the business. You tell me what hunting skills are required on a "guided hunt". my mind can be changed when confronted with hard facts just as it was changed by bamachem when I was dead set on a .257 wby until he posted up numbers on the .270 win.

Go with the .257 WBY...trust me.

No reply to the skill required? We can discuss the .257 in another thread.

What state are we hunting in?
What game animal are we hunting?
What type weapon will we be using?
Do you want a fully-guided hunt, semi-guided, assisted, or do it yourself?

Is answering any of your questions going to change your narrow mind...not likely but I will be glad to try.

What skills do you think are required to hunt deer here in Alabama?

"Hey, there is a trail. There are some droppings over there under that water-oak tree. Maybe I should put a stand down wind of it and sit here and wait for a deer to walk by and I can shoot it."

Is that the kind of hunting skills that are required to kill deer?

Come on bill/BGH, a couple more posts and we get it to 8 pages. This is like driving by a train wreck. You know you shouldn't but you can't help but look.

The only reason I am still posting is to try and break a non-football forum record for longest thread. I decided yesterday that I was pissing up a tree with Bill.

I know. fun ain't it ?

Lets just say guided first then we can move on to semi guided. Hunting whitetail in iowa since I think I remember you guiding there. I have already proved my mind can be changed so have at it.

This ain't the longest thread, by any stretch, even in the Foolsball Forum.

Ms. Muzzie was involved on a monster thread years ago, and a hilarious one, at that. This one has a long way to go to top any record.

Now, back to the idiotic bitching about whose .257 works best for caged animals on food plots while you're reading the Code of Alabama to help 49er with legal postings on here.

I meant the new web site Clem.

Still no reply?

Oh, it's probably a New Site Record, for sure.

Good catch.

Your right Bill. It takes no skills at all what so ever to hunt in any way other than the way you like to hunt.

You go find a trail with deer tracks on it, find some fresh poop, hang a stand down wind and "wait" for a unsuspecting deer to walk by so you can shoot it with your new .270.

All of those people around the world have proved nothing by being able to pull the trigger when they go hunting somewhere other than their home turf.

I do wish there was some skill needed to go on a guided hunt. It would sure make my job as an outfitter/guide a lot easier if my clients were required to do anything other than shoot. Although I do like it when they ask me to shoot for them.

You win.

Clem,

There is an "Iron Bowl" thread in the football forum that is 15 pages and has 358 or so post. That is the one I have my sites on.

Wow. I never said that someone could only hunt on their own land. You were the one who implied that I didn't know what I was talking about and that I had no basis from which to draw that conclusion. You choose not to answer the question and after all the banter this is the best you could come up with?

Foolsball Forum is in its own category. LOL

Bill...Bill...Bill,

Re-read my posts again. I didn't say anything about you hunting your own land. I said your home turf meaning your lease you mentioned earlier in this thread.

Also, I didn't imply anything. I simply asked you to share with the group where you got your experiences from about high fence hunting and guided hunts.

No Clarence, we are going for a new record.

I think that hunters try to force their Moral Standards on other hunters to cover up their own inadequacies and falures to achieve success in their own personal hunting experiences.

I, for one, don't give a crap HOW or WHERE anyone else hunts.

Just to throw a little kerosene on the fire, what do you think about pay hunts publishing success rates as part of their marketing ads? The kind where you read "Our hunters have a 99% success rate". Is that saying they have so many deer a blind man could find and shoot one or is it saying "we've got 'em scouted for you, bring the BIG gun". I am referring to enclosure hunts, not guided hunts in free range territories.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, just fanning the flames of debate a little.

Aren't percentages that high for Caribou hunts? I know it's comparing deer and caribou but....

Some caribou hunts will have a 125% success rate or higher. Some Alberta black bears hunts are the same. Anywhere you can take more than one animal of the same specie on a hunt should be better than 100% success rate.

3Toe,

If you were about to book a hunt somewhere, high fence or not, would you want to know what kind of success hunters in the past years had experienced?

Well sure, I just threw it out there with the slant of looking at it from the original debate going on. If you are given a high guarantee of success then what are you paying for? The guarantee to kill something or the opportunity to use your hunting ability to kill something? Do you get the "let me show where to sit and what time to be ready", or do you get the "we know there's a good number of deer over that way, have at it."

I am not arguing one side or the other, just explaing the question I posted. I've never been on a paid hunt of any kind so I can't comment from experience. Just throwing points of debate based on perception only, right or wrong.

To go a bit further, maybe you could summarize what you do when you take a client on a paid hunt. What do you provide as to expertise of the land/game being hunted, what is the client expected to do, etc. I would love to know because like I've said I have never been on one and have no idea what it's like. If I ever get these kids off to college I might be in the market for a good hunt.

Don't some states require a guide for non-residents?

Another good point.

Your question requires a little more information to answer but I think I can answer you.

If it is a fully guided hunt the guide will typically be sitting, walking or riding with you at all times. Depending on the specie being hunted and the state you are hunting in, it may be required for the guide to be within (x) feet of you at all times.

Typically the kind of fully guided hunts that I do, we will either be walking or riding in a vehicle. (depending on what and where we are hunting) We will be looking for game together until we spot a animal that you want to go after. Once we do that, we will form a plan on how to get you within a comfortable range for you and try to get set up for the shot. (Notice that I kept using we) This is the clients hunt and regardless of what some seem to believe, some hunting skills are required.

Semi-guided hunts are typically a tree-stand type hunt. On all of my hunts of that type, I will have stands in place but I always recommend the hunter bring their own climber, lock-on, ground-blind, etc. I will show you areas that I have seen good game sign and put you in a stand that is already in place for the first few days of the hunt. If you aren't seeing game or you want to move, I can either move you to a stand that is already in place or we/you can go look for a spot that you want to put your own stand.

Unguided/do-it-yourself hunts are basically a trespass fee hunt. I will show you the land lines and if there are stands in place I will point those out. Then I will say good luck and don't shoot yourself and I will see you tonight.

Yes, some states require a guide for non-residents. In Alaska for example, you can hunt some species without a guide but other specie hunts require a fully-guided hunt.

Fred Bear didn't shoot young animals, and failed miserably in his success as a hunter?

As long as it is a legal form of hunting I say go for it if you want to and I will not bash it unless somehow it hurts the surrounding land owners or hunters.

Fred's success rate sucked.

Bgh, I see you finally answered the question even if it took someone else asking it. I guess I should not have painted all guided hunts with the same brush. I was referrimg to stand huntng where the guide is either with you or has put you in a pre hung stand or blind. I'm going to have to dig deep if we are going to keep this thread going. Maybe we can start discussing hunts for black panthers inside very small enclosures while using a .22 ..

There are no such thing as black panthers dumbass.

Billy,

I have a questions for you. What skills are you referring to when you say it takes no skills other than marksmanship?

What skills do you possess that makes you the Alabama whitetail slayer that you are?

Do guided duck and turkey hunts count in the "not a hunter" scenario?

If so, I'm inadequate and have failed miserably. Fishing trips, too.

Damn. Someone have a Kleenex?

Who said I was any better than the next guy. I never said that going on a guided hunt or a fenced hunt made you any less of a hunter. There are some people,im sure , that just enjoy the experience . I only said that it only took the ability to make the shot in order to be successful on a hunt where the guide has already done everything for you. My skills as a hunter are limited but I do enjoy doing my own hunting. The emotion of this topic has caused some to construe things I have said into something totally different than what I have said. I still have not seen a response to my statement. Only more questions.

I'm not sure clem. Are you doing your own calling? I go on guided inshore fishing trips and am a living testament that no skill is needed but it sure Is fun.

I've seen one in person. He tried to stop me from voting.

I just pretty much shoot at whatever's flying and hope it's a federally-allowed duck or goose.

Outdoors Fail. *sigh*

Its ok clem. Your still a heck of a writer and the most powerful person on aldeer and darn it people like you. We should start a support group for others like us. (I'm starting to really get in the spirit of keeping this thread going)

Me too.

Here's one thing that I haven't heard any chatter on. Not everyone has time to cut, plant, scout, hang, build, route, cut, trample, scare out, chase down, cross over, wear out, stump break, and mull over a hunting place.

There are lots of people that have jobs and lives and kids playing ball, etc. and they would like to enjoy "hunting" some times. I can tell you that I get lots of guys that want me to do all that for them so they can spend what time they have got to hunt with their son/daughter in the stand or in the blind hunting and seeing deer. I have a 100% at least success rate at people seeing deer on my place. I can't think of any body that has hunted with me and not see some deer.

Bill, you keep getting hung up on BGH stating you said this or that. It ain't necessarily you. There are SEVERAL guys on here that think that anybody that goes on a guided hunt, or hunts in an enclosure, or baits deer with corn (where legal), or uses a scope instead of a bow, and so on is a thug or lazy or gay or what ever they think is a bad word to call them. And the reason they do that is cause that ain't the way they do it. "It" don't even have to be about hunting. "It" could be the make of truck you drive to them.

BGH and myself are just saying that usually, the staunchest opponents to some thing are people that have NO experience with it. Take "gun control", "dog hunting", or "skate boarders" or a dozen other things that loons rare on about.

Guided or fenced hunts are NOT all the same. Men are not all the same. Women are not all the same. Trucks are not all the same. Boobs are NOT all the same........................ and that's all I have to say about that.

So, you're saying shooting deer in a cage is like fondling silicone boobies?

It may look the same, but it ain't?

How many more pages for the record?????

I understand all of that and am all for their right to hunt any legal way of their choosing. I never said it was wrong, unethical, lazy or that I was a better hunter than anyone else. All I said was that it was not for me and that the only skill required on a guided hunt was the ability to make the shot. I did not say that anyone who went on a guided hunt was less of a hunter or that they only possessed the skill to shoot . o only says that was the only skill needed . For those two statements I have been accused of saying all of the above mentioned slights. now if this thread starts to die we can discuss a 4 acre shooting pen I know about here in north bama and that should keep us going for awhile.

How much to hunt it bill????
I've been looking for a slam dunk!

Clem , I haven't ever fence hunted but I have uh... Played with silicone and they should have arrested the girl for using bait. I would have paid her ticket.

i would like to see some proof of the fence and the boobies. Don`t realy care about the fence too much.

I knew I could change the subject............... ( . Y . ) ..........

thats a joke

surely not.

No, he's right. People don't like me.

You kinda turn me on a little, Clem. How about a picture???

I've become photo-installation ignorant since the new site came up.

Draw a big barrel, add fat legs, chubby arms and a fat head. Stick figure after a month at the Golden Corral buffet. That's me.

I guess "silicone boobies" threw off the debate about unethical hunters shooting deer in cages.

Turkey hunters on guided trips must not need much skill to pull a trigger on a longbeard at 22 steps. Wussies.

That depends. I have seen a show where the guided hunter was dressed to look like a hen and they called the strutter up and he bred the poor little guy in the hen suit before being shot. I think that took some skill. The hunter got shot and killed the next week by another hunter. He was dressed in the hen costume and was unarmed.

What?

Ok, I think we all forgot that this is the serious forum.

ooohhh yeah! nice rack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And they look like they are fenced in!! Daggumit!!

Do you think that rack would qualify for Bone & Crotchett?

Sorry Bill, had to break the ice. The "serious" deer talk was more like a couple elementary school kids on the playground circling around each other with their dukes put up.

1st kid: "you take the 1st punch"
2nd kid: "no, YOU take the 1st punch"

Except in this case, it was "you answer my question". "No, you answer MY question!" There's nothing like a good rack to draw attention. I like racks.

Heck, I ain't mad at ya. I was the one who started taking it to sillyville.

Please answer my questions Billy.

I already did. Did I know you when I was in school? I went by billy growing up. Makes me feel young again.

That kid that always beat you up and made you pee on yourself...that was me.

Seriously though, why won't you tell me what skills you possess?

hmm, I dont recall that. You must have me confused with your first girlfriend. But seriously, I already answered your question . I said my skills were limited but I did enjoy doing my own hunting.

I didn't ask how limited or limitless they were, I asked what they were.

And well before you asked I asked you which skills it took to be successful on a guided hunt where the guide has placed the stands for you.

And I explained to 3-toe and you how a guided. semi-guided, and unguided hunt would be.

What skills or do you not have any?

Where do you hunt?

How many acres is your lease?

Is it yours alone or are there other members in your club?

Are we there yet????

5 more pages.

Dan , if I had ever tied up with bgh he would still be screaming " yall " stop.

WOW this has to be the most interesting topic with 24 or more pages posted, Great job guy's on comments to this post.
Good Hunting !

i dont have any. I usually just put my climber on my back and find an area I like and then hope I get lucky. I saw where you posted what a hunter could expect on each type of hunt but not what skills would be required to be successful on the example I gave. Your a guide,dont you think that the scouting and hanging stands in areas that consistently produce mature trophy bucks requires skill and knowledge? If it does then what have you left for the hunter to do other than shoot?

I would love to see some photos of your mature trophy bucks that you have taken. I am sure you have lots of big ones to show us.

The reason I asked what skills you have is so that I will know how to answer your question.

What skills as a hunter does it take to: find a deer trail, look for some fresh tracks, find some poop under an oak tree, lick your finger and stick it in the air to feel which way the wind is blowing, locate a tree suitable for climbing that is down wind of the above mentioned things, climb that tree, and wait for a deer to walk by you?

I dont know what my skills our lack of or what my history of trophy kills has to do with the answer I am asking for but if I am understanding you correctly then all guides and hunters have as much chance of killing mature bucks as the next guy since there is no real skill or knowledge needed.

So you are saying no skill is needed to be a guide or a good hunter?

Nope. I believe to be consistently successful on mature bucks requires knowledge and skill. We aren't getting anywhere here.

Again, what skills?

The skill and knowledge to be able to determine the bedding and feeding habits of mature bucks along with the ability to adapt to the changing feeding habits of the deer population as a whole. The ability to determine travel corridors, funnels and saddles and place stands in strategic locations that will offer the best shot opportunities while minimizing your impact in the area. And the last which is not really a skill, being willing to do the work and put the time in that it takes to be successful.

How many acres do you currently hunt that is in one tract?

Why would you want to be tied up together with another guy???

Im doing all the answering and getting no answers in return. Im gonna let the thread die and try for the record in the football forum after jan 10.

Please ask me a question then answer mine.

So...do Florida hunters need a guide on unguided hunts?

i keep checking back for more boobies and you guys are letting me down big time!

GO BILL!!!!! HAHAHAHA

HERE YA GO BUDDY

Buckman....is THE man!!!! Is it ethical to hunt them in a small enclosure????

I hunt them year round!!! kinda like bGH, ive been to Spain, Amsterdam, Germany, and Greece to bag these!!! I have nailed the coast down pretty good If you can get them into a small encloser than your doing good.lol

Sounds sweet, but expensive just like those trophy hunts!

You aught to see me when I start culling the herd. hahahahaha

THATS RIGHT! I`LL TAKE IT

Oh...WOW!

OK, the last chick completely derailed the thread and any discussion about deer or guides or who's a puss for shooting caged animals is now over.

Goodness. Y'all going to melt the new server.

I went on a guided hunt this weekend and didn't kill anything. I left all my skills at home on this hunt because of what Billy shared with us.

I guess I should have taken at least some of my skills with me. If I would have maybe I would have killed something.

Did you not have a good time?

I had a great time, and everyone else around me did too. I make sure of it.

You would have a great time on a guided hunt as well if you would try it sometime.

Y'all need an NSFW attached to this thread so I know not to look at it with my 12 yr old daughter looking over my shoulder

Looks like this has degraded as bad as the "what made you start deer hunting" thread.

You are right. And then we started adding pictures too.

Im sure I would enjoy some aspects of it and would especiially enjoy it for something other than whitetails.

When do you want to go?

Consider yourself invited.

What are we talking about hunting and what is the cost?

That is up to you.

I am going to open your eyes to things you never even imagined.

I am not sure I like the sound of that. It doesnt involve gerbils or a monkey does it?

We would have to hunt those two species in a cage but it's your call.

Elk is the only other species I have any intrest in hunting. I dont care a thing about antelope, bear or mule deer.

I can do that too.

Ballpark cost? It doesnt have to be in a high success trophy area. I just want to learn as much as i can and see if I like it.

$1500-8000+ for an elk hunt plus expenses.

K. Ill give it some thought.