Hunting At Night Conducted by WFF

USDA holds "Scientific collection" permits that they use to shoot deer at night to reduce population numbers on specific properties. They do this without notifing the Montgomery DCNR office or the local GWs. Since when does population reduction and scientific collection mean the same thing??? Since when do we allow the Federal government (USDA) to kill Alabama resident game (DEER) at the request of private enterprises with the knowledge of DCNR???

Game Warden and biologist have been doing this around here on private farms that are on state regulated management programs for a while around here. I know of them doing at least 10-15 years ago.

How in the heck are they going to get conception dates without killing does?
They have a key to our place and we hope they get the 10 does for a study from us or another place or 2.
Pretty hard to get this information based on a guess.

How do y'all think some fetal conception studies are done? Magic? Vaginal probes and sonar down at the Whitetail Clinic?

Been going on a long time throughout the state.

Game Warden and biologist have been doing this around here on private farms that are on state regulated management programs for a while around here. I know of them doing at least 10-15 years ago.

How do y'all think some fetal conception studies are done? Magic? Vaginal probes and sonar down at the Whitetail Clinic?

Perhaps they are within the law and y'all are making a deal about something you don't know about but think you do.

Or maybe they're just blatantly violating the law agin' like the commissioner and CAB and others have done for 40 years and no one's said boo! Oh my!

C'mon. Y'all get some common sense.

Section 9-11-301
Fixing of boundaries; promulgation of special rules and regulations for management and protection of areas.

The Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources is authorized to fix such boundaries and promulgate such special rules and regulations for the management and protection of wildlife management areas as may be necessary or desirable. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, he is specifically authorized to set up for any wildlife management area special open and closed seasons on game animals, game birds and fish, to establish the amount of the fees to be collected for the privilege of hunting and fishing during any open season, to collect such fees and to authorize their collection by designated employees of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, to require the possession of a special permit when hunting or fishing within wildlife management areas, and to limit the number of permits to be issued during any open season to such members as he may direct.

(Acts 1939, No. 668, p. 1061, §2; Code 1940, T. 8, §110(2).)

… We recognize that "interpretations of an act by the administrative agency charged with its enforcement, though not conclusive, are to be given great weight by the reviewing court." Hulcher v. Taunton, 388 So. 2d 1203, 1206 (Ala. 1980). However, "[a]n administrative agency cannot usurp legislative powers or contravene a statute." Ex parte Jones Mfg. Co., 589 So. 2d 208, 210 (Ala. 1991).

"An administrative interpretation of long standing is normally entitled to favorable consideration by the courts, but `... this rule of construction is to be laid aside where it seems reasonably certain that the administrator's interpretation has been erroneous and that a different construction is required by the language of the statute.'Boswell v. Abex Corp., 294 Ala. 334, 336, 317 So. 2d 317, 318 (1975)."

Sand Mountain Bank v. Albertville Nat'l Bank, 442 So. 2d 13, 18 (Ala. 1983). In this case, the language of the applicable statutory provisions conflicts with Lambert's implicit interpretation of those provisions. Therefore, the language of the statutory provisions must prevail. Id.

Doesn't make it legal though.

"An administrative interpretation of long standing is normally entitled to favorable consideration by the courts, but `... this rule of construction is to be laid aside where it seems reasonably certain that the administrator's interpretation has been erroneous and that a different construction is required by the language of the statute.'Boswell v. Abex Corp., 294 Ala. 334, 336, 317 So. 2d 317, 318 (1975)."

Section 9-11-235
Taking, etc., of protected birds or animals, raccoons or opossums at night; nighttime hunting of foxes with dogs.

It shall be unlawful, except as to trapping as otherwise provided by law, for a person to take, capture, or kill, or attempt to take, capture, or kill any bird or animal protected by the laws of this state between sunset and daylight of the following day, except that the Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources may by a duly promulgated regulation, allow the taking, catching, or killing of raccoons and opossums between sunset and daylight in any county or counties within the state. In any county where the taking, catching, or killing of raccoons and opossums is permitted during nighttime hours by regulations of the commissioner, the animals may only be legally taken with the use of a light and/or a shotgun using shot no larger than number eight, and the person or persons so hunting shall be accompanied by a dog or dogs and, if hunting on the lands of another, shall have the written permission of the landowner.

Any person violating this section shall be guilty of a Class B misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished for the first offense by a fine of not less than two thousand dollars ($2,000) nor more than three thousand dollars ($3,000) and may be imprisoned in the county jail for a period not to exceed six months. In addition, the court shall revoke all hunting license privileges for a period of three years from the date of conviction.

No provision of this section shall be construed to prohibit the nighttime hunting of foxes with dogs.

(Acts 1935, No. 383, p. 813, §5; Code 1940, T. 8, §86; Acts 1949, No. 662, p. 1026, §1; Acts 1953, No. 767, p. 1028, §1; Acts 1982, No. 82-488, p. 811, §1; Acts 1995, No. 95-215, p. 252, §2; Act 2008-384, p. 714, §1.)

Asking 10 hunters when peak breeding occurs in an area is about useless. You'll get 10 different answers, maybe more.

I don't have a problem with shooting a few does in the summer for scientific purposes like conception dates, but it seems THEY LOSE THE COLLECTED INFORMATION EVERY DANG YEAR. You would think in 30 or so years they would know what the approximate breeding dates are in each area, or they could just ask ask 10 or so hunters and they could tell them.

Where are yall getting this idea the data is lost?

Agree

Its stupid killing deer at night during the summer.

Also, we do work under a permit no different than a depredation permit issued to landowners to kill deer at night on their own property, except we are gaining very valuable reproduction data that you can not get by asking hunters. Asking 10 hunters when peak breeding occurs in an area is about useless. You'll get 7 different answers, maybe more.

Section 9-11-240
Opening of season for hunting, etc., of female deer and unantlered male deer.

Any law of the State of Alabama to the contrary notwithstanding, the Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources is hereby authorized to open a season in any county, area or section of the state for the hunting, taking, capturing and killing of female deer or unantlered male deer by a duly promulgated regulation when, in his best judgment, he deems it necessary for biological reasons or because of crop damage to open the season on such deer, provided this meets with the approval of the landowner or leaseholder.

(Acts 1966, Ex. Sess., No. 180, p. 213, § 1.)

I'm predicting 7 pages, of which 4 will be copy/paste by 9er.

Waaaa! DCNR doesn't do anything! They don't have data! They should be doing research! Waaaaaa!

Waaaa! DCNR is breaking their laws and thumbing their nose! They shouldn't be doing this! They should be doing things like everyone else! Research bad! Waaaaaa!


Goes on throughout the country. Round up all the state agencies and throw them in the prison.

Also, we do work under a permit no different than a depredation permit issued to landowners to kill deer at night on their own property, except we are gaining very valuable reproduction data that you can not get by asking hunters. Asking 10 hunters when peak breeding occurs in an area is about useless. You'll get 7 different answers, maybe more.

Wow, just Wow at the comments on this thread!

You would be amazed at what a State or Fed collection permit will allow you to do. I had both for several years and could be in possession of a dead bald eagle if I could justify it.

Also, we conduct the repro surveys only on lands we have permission to be, or on WMAs. I haven't read the AON article. Who was the author?

The other thought I would have would for them to be at processors during january and xheck for fetuses in already shot does but that may make two much sense

Why not just catch fawns to check the conception date as opposed to killing the doe and fetuses. I would think landownwers know when fawns start hitting the ground and they are pretty easy to catch for a week or so, I would also think you could use game cams to estimate size and age of fawns fairly easily if it was done right. Just some thoughts. May not be as fun as shooting them. The other thought I would have would for them to be at processors during january and xheck for fetuses in already shot does but that may make two much sense

You know how to post pictures of woods burning.

Take a picture of your permits and share them with us.

Like this:




See how you vow to abide by all laws and ordinances?

You wouldn't tell a lie and use the permit to break the law would you?

(3) by the use of equipment or by methods
not permitted under a valid hunting, fishing or trapping license.

Why not just catch fawns to check the conception date as opposed to killing the doe and fetuses. I would think landownwers know when fawns start hitting the ground and they are pretty easy to catch for a week or so, I would also think you could use game cams to estimate size and age of fawns fairly easily if it was done right. Just some thoughts. May not be as fun as shooting them. The other thought I would have would for them to be at processors during january and xheck for fetuses in already shot does but that may make two much sense

Ben2, I did some "collecting" before I was a GW and I can assure you there is no "FUN" in it, damn hard, nasty, hot, work.

Eddie and Jack, on the application for scientific collection permits the following is stated.....

Specifically, General Scientific
Collection Permits and/or State-Listed Species Scientific Collection Permits are for
collecting scientific data (1) on species for which no harvest season is provided, (2) on species
outside the provided harvest seasons and/or when such collections cannot be made during
the regular hunting, fishing or trapping seasons, or (3) by the use of equipment or by methods
not permitted under a valid hunting, fishing or trapping license.

To me, that answers your question. We are conducting scientific research on game animals during a time period in which there is no open season, and with methods that are not normally permitted. No laws are broken. Case closed.

I really don't like the use of your term "hunting" at night by WFF personnel. We aren't hunting in the sense of attempting to take game for personal use or consumption. It is legit science. And like BHAMFRED stated it is work. It isn't fun at all. It was the first time or two, but it quickly becomes work, and long hours. I don't know of anyone who enjoys getting in the truck to conduct a night-time operation. We are usually glad it is over.

DEFINITION OF HUNTING

Hunting includes pursuing, shooting, killing, capturing and trapping wild animals, wild fowl, wild birds, and all lesser acts, such as disturbing, harrying or worrying, or placing, setting, drawing, or using any device used to take wild animals, wild fowl, wild birds, whether they result in taking or not, and includes every act of assistance to any person in taking or attempting to take wild animals, wild fowl, or wild birds.

Section 9-2-6
Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources - Powers and duties generally.

... In the performance of such functions and duties and in the exercise of such powers and authorities, the Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources and all other officers and employees of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources shall, however, be subject to all legal restrictions, limitations and conditions and penalties, civil and criminal, with respect to the performance of such functions and duties and the exercise of such powers and authorities.

(Acts 1939, No. 162, p. 255, § 7; Code 1940, T. 8, §6.)

Section 13A-2-23
Criminal liability based upon behavior of another - Complicity.

A person is legally accountable for the behavior of another constituting a criminal offense if, with the intent to promote or assist the commission of the offense:

(1) He procures, induces or causes such other person to commit the offense; or

(2) He aids or abets such other person in committing the offense; or

(3) Having a legal duty to prevent the commission of the offense, he fails to make an effort he is legally required to make.

(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §415.)

Eddie and Jack, on the application for scientific collection permits the following is stated.....

Specifically, General Scientific
Collection Permits and/or State-Listed Species Scientific Collection Permits are for
collecting scientific data (1) on species for which no harvest season is provided, (2) on species
outside the provided harvest seasons and/or when such collections cannot be made during
the regular hunting, fishing or trapping seasons, or (3) by the use of equipment or by methods
not permitted under a valid hunting, fishing or trapping license.

To me, that answers your question. We are conducting scientific research on game animals during a time period in which there is no open season, and with methods that are not normally permitted. No laws are broken. Case closed.

I really don't like the use of your term "hunting" at night by WFF personnel. We aren't hunting in the sense of attempting to take game for personal use or consumption. It is legit science. And like BHAMFRED stated it is work. It isn't fun at all. It was the first time or two, but it quickly becomes work, and long hours. I don't know of anyone who enjoys getting in the truck to conduct a night-time operation. We are usually glad it is over.

Section 9-2-6
Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources - Powers and duties generally.

... In the performance of such functions and duties and in the exercise of such powers and authorities, the Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources and all other officers and employees of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources shall, however, be subject to all legal restrictions, limitations and conditions and penalties, civil and criminal, with respect to the performance of such functions and duties and the exercise of such powers and authorities.

(Acts 1939, No. 162, p. 255, § 7; Code 1940, T. 8, §6.)

I am not a lawyer and do not know all the other laws that might or might not supercede the one quoted, but if I felt as strongly as you seem to I would definitely be finding me lawyer otherwise your just pissing in the wind and nothing will change.

If you're too dumb to read plain English and understand what it means, then you might want to consider cutting back on giving those who can advice on what they should do.

I have killed does in 5 counties that had twin fetuses the last week of january, those counties are cullman, walker, perry, tallapoosa, and shelby.

There you go insulting people again........evidently you just do not have a case and just like to argue

Bigt is gonna feed 49er to his pet bears.

They were just ideas, I would imagine fetus size close to conception date would be the most accurate time you could measure a fetus. The longer the fetus was inside the more factors would lead to different sizes like u say the birth rates vary significantly, but weight and length near conception have to be very similar across the board. if the fetus was 6 inches long odds are u could tell dang near when it was conceived. I have killed does in 5 counties that had twin fetuses the last week of january, those counties are cullman, walker, perry, tallapoosa, and shelby.

Bigt is acting about as juvenile as Clem.

... i said i did not know if there was another law or regulation that supercedes the one you quoted.

... I am not a lawyer and do not know all the other laws that might or might not supercede the one quoted ...

I just realized I have now been compared to the great Clem........I am moving up!

Stick to your 3F "wildlife farming" in Mississippi and I'll stick to preserving our right to hunt natural wildlife here in Alabama.

... Anyone who believes scientific data collection is "hunting at night" has an obvious problem that can't be helped.

Section 9-11-235
Taking, etc., of protected birds or animals, raccoons or opossums at night; nighttime hunting of foxes with dogs.

It shall be unlawful, except as to trapping as otherwise provided by law, for a person to take, capture, or kill, or attempt to take, capture, or kill any bird or animal protected by the laws of this state between sunset and daylight of the following day, except that the Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources may by a duly promulgated regulation, allow the taking, catching, or killing of raccoons and opossums between sunset and daylight in any county or counties within the state. ...

It's not hunting.

You're irrational, illogical and unrealistic.

DEFINITION OF HUNTING
Hunting includes pursuing, shooting, killing, capturing and trapping wild animals, wild fowl, wild birds, and all lesser acts, such as disturbing, harrying or worrying, or placing, setting, drawing, or using any device used to take wild animals, wild fowl, wild birds, whether they result in taking or not, and includes every act of assistance to any person in taking or attempting to take wild animals, wild fowl, or wild birds.

Did they have a permit?

I heard it was ALFA insurance and its elite team of the assassins behind the night time murder of deer.

Crop depredation permit question...... What are farmers suppose to do when deer are eating their Soy Beans? Should deer be treated like Ground hogs and shot pretty much anywhere, anytime they are in a bean field causing 1000s in damage?

(7) To close the season of any species of game in any county or area when, upon a survey by the department, it is found necessary to the conservation and perpetuation of such species and to reopen such closed season when it is deemed advisable.

Doing fetal surveys and crop depredation are 2 different issues IMO.

Section 9-11-240
Opening of season for hunting, etc., of female deer and unantlered male deer.

Any law of the State of Alabama to the contrary notwithstanding, the Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources is hereby authorized to open a season in any county, area or section of the state for the hunting, taking, capturing and killing of female deer or unantlered male deer by a duly promulgated regulation when, in his best judgment, he deems it necessary for biological reasons or because of crop damage to open the season on such deer, provided this meets with the approval of the landowner or leaseholder.

(Acts 1966, Ex. Sess., No. 180, p. 213, § 1.)

If herds of deer are destroying crops, I doubt if it would be necessary to shoot deer at night to conduct fetal surveys in order to make decisions on when to open or close the hunting season or to determine how low or high bag limits should be set.

Getting data that most are screaming they don't have

Section 9-11-301
Fixing of boundaries; promulgation of special rules and regulations for management and protection of areas.

The Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources is authorized to fix such boundaries and promulgate such special rules and regulations for the management and protection of wildlife management areas as may be necessary or desirable...

Would appear the DCNR/WFF are killin' two birds with one stone. Getting data that most are screaming they don't have and need, while helping the farmer with crowd control. Win Win.
That data may very well prove useful setting seasons and bag limits.

You know, some people take up golf or gardening or travel and see the world when they retire. I'd just as soon die the day I retire than to scour the inter web day after day looking to pick a fight with the State of Alabama.


I certainly don't like the liberal rules involved with depredation permits. The local farmer around my place has just about cleaned out our heard but my fight for enjoyment verses his fight to save his crop is futile. As Futile as 9er's fight with all things DNCR related. Good luck Eddie.

I'm with 49er on this one. I think it's complete bs. These permits they give out to shoot does at night in the summer is just outright wrong. There is no legal statute to allow one person to hunt out of season, at night, and then to just kill and leave laying that's a totally different can of worms.

So you have no problem with the hunting season closing and then letting the farmer do the slaughtering instead?

Should we just shut up and not talk about it?

Gotta go get ready for church now. Carry on guys. We can fix this.

Doing fetal surveys and crop depredation are 2 different issues IMO.

I agree these belong in two separate discussions.....

I think 9er wants to blend the two to help his position.
Whole lota blending going on round here!

Also, we do work under a permit no different than a depredation permit issued to landowners to kill deer at night on their own property, except we are gaining very valuable reproduction data that you can not get by asking hunters. Asking 10 hunters when peak breeding occurs in an area is about useless. You'll get 7 different answers, maybe more.

I've got a few minutes to respond to that.

This thread opened with a post about concerns of DCNR employees killing deer at night.

Matt responded with:


OK 2dogs??

Why aren't ya'll getting ready for church now?

I've got a few minutes to respond to that.

This thread opened with a post about concerns of DCNR employees killing deer at night.

Matt responded with:


OK 2dogs??

Why aren't ya'll getting ready for church now?

I am not a fan of the crop damage permits. If a farmer needs his deer herd reduced he should open his land for public hunting through the use of permits and have as many deer as the law allows and is needed to be killed. That way everyone wins the farmer gets his deer killed, people get hunting access and the meat is not wasted.

I've got a few minutes to respond to that.

This thread opened with a post about concerns of DCNR employees killing deer at night.

Matt responded with:


OK 2dogs??

Why aren't ya'll getting ready for church now?

True- talker
Surely the farmer could through local church groups and local hunters be able to allow enough hunting to get the deer herd under control in a more acceptable manner.

I don't know if it was done strictly to reduce population or for studies but when my mother lived right by the Eufaula NWR I know that atleast once she received a letter in the mail telling her that if she heard gunshots at night on a certain that they were doing it on the NWR. Cant remember for sure but I think it said for population reduction. Which to me is odd to have a archery only place then go in after season and shoot deer at night with guns.

There are at least two participants in this discussion who have been involved in enforcement of our game and fish laws who haven't shown us where there is an exception to the law either.

equipment or by methods
not permitted under a valid hunting, fishing or trapping license.

I'm with 49er on this one. I think it's complete bs. These permits they give out to shoot does at night in the summer is just outright wrong. There is no legal statute to allow one person to hunt out of season, at night, and then to just kill and leave laying that's a totally different can of worms.

2 different issues - one is depredation permits to reduce the population, NOT done by biologists and game wardens employed by the State. The other is SCIENTIFIC collection permits to collect biological data to help manage the States wildlife resource and IS done by Biologists and game wardens employed by the State.

Section 9-2-6
Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources - Powers and duties generally.

... In the performance of such functions and duties and in the exercise of such powers and authorities, the Commissioner of Conservation and Natural Resources and all other officers and employees of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources shall, however, be subject to all legal restrictions, limitations and conditions and penalties, civil and criminal, with respect to the performance of such functions and duties and the exercise of such powers and authorities.

... "When legislative power is delegated to administrative officials it is constitutionally required that adequate guides and standards be established by the delegating legislative body so that the administrative officials, appointed by the executive and not elected by the people, will not legislate, but will find and apply facts in a particular case in accordance with the policy established by the legislative body." (Emphasis in original.)
Comm'n on Med. Discipline v. Stillman, 435 A. 2d 747 - Md: Court of Appeals 1981

... If we assume that this is a sufficient cause, we allow the legislature to delegate to an administrative official the power to determine when and if a statute will go into effect. This we cannot do in light of Art. IV, § 44 of the Alabama Constitution, which provides: "The legislative power of this state shall be vested in a legislature, which shall consist of a senate and a house of representatives." Mead v. Eagerton, 255 Ala. 66, 50 So.2d 253 (1951).

one BIG reason that DCNR dosen't go to the legislature for law changes is because they(DCNR) have no control over what the idiots in the legislature write into the law, change about the law, or any damn thing else. It ain't so simple eddie.

YOU'RE the one so worried and apparently have the time so why don't YOU address the "problem"????

one BIG reason that DCNR dosen't go to the legislature for law changes is because they(DCNR) have no control over what the idiots in the legislature write into the law, change about the law, or any damn thing else. It ain't so simple eddie.

... "The government is the potent omnipresent teacher. For good or ill it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that the end justifies the means -- to declare that the government may commit crimes -- would bring terrible retribution."

gobbler, like me, you knew better.....

Also I imagine hunting at night increases the potential for poor shots, why not just do the harvesting In Daylight like normal hunters.

Bottom line:

We should all just do just like the DCNR people do ...

if the law doesn't fit our plans, ignore it and do what we want to do anyhow.



Quote from Justice Louis D. Brandeis, US Supreme Court

Olmstead v. United States, 277 US 438 - Supreme Court 1928

MR. JUSTICE BRANDEIS, dissenting.:



Olmstead v US *** click here ****

I agree and concur, the legislature could screw up a.........

What's actually sad Eddie is that in many, I would actually say MOST, arguments you present on here, I am on your side, although you would never admit it and do your best to point out any minute differences. But on issues like this you loose all common sense. Stick to high impact issues that you are CLEARLY right on and you might win folks over. MY $.02

With so much BS flying around, it becomes hard to resist

Also trying to fulfill 3FFarms prediction



Actually, just the opposite is true in my experience. Sandbags, a stable rest, observers with binoculars to verify ID and range, and very focused in a light. Much higher recovery and kill rate per shot than normal hunting. Also much easier to collect multiple per hour than standard "hunting". If most researchers don't enjoy doing it, then why do you think they do it at night - MUCH higher success per unit effort.

I am calling bull, no way you can see another deer that may be 20 yards behind the one you are shooting at night, not like you could in daylight. Same goes for seeing a stick or limb that may deflect the bullet no spot light is as good as the sun. Also if we r shooting them at night just bait them and shoot them in the daylight what's the difference

goobler,


We don't see eye to eye.

The Commissioner designates protected animals, and he can remove coyotes and feral pigs from that classification with a stroke of his pen. Instead, he causes them to be protected by law and then turns his head when the law is violated.

That flies in the face of all common sense, yet you defend it.

I'm sure in your experience comparing the couple hundred you shot during the day to the hundred or so you shot at night, that may be true, but in my experience of a couple hundred in the day and a hundred or so at night, plus the other research deer I have seen collected, you are wrong.

So you have no problem with the hunting season closing and then letting the farmer do the slaughtering instead?

Should we just shut up and not talk about it?

Gotta go get ready for church now. Carry on guys. We can fix this.

Gobbler you have no idea of experience I may or may not have, remember that. Assuming mainly just makes an ass of you. If this gets to 7 pages soon I will be done arguing with u, so I can kill some more deer tonight. I just wrote a permit.

I am calling bull, no way you can see another deer that may be 20 yards behind the one you are shooting at night, not like you could in daylight. Same goes for seeing a stick or limb that may deflect the bullet no spot light is as good as the sun. Also if we r shooting them at night just bait them and shoot them in the daylight what's the difference

True- talker
Surely the farmer could through local church groups and local hunters be able to allow enough hunting to get the deer herd under control in a more acceptable manner.

True- talker
Surely the farmer could through local church groups and local hunters be able to allow enough hunting to get the deer herd under control in a more acceptable manner.

If it was safe to hunt at night would the state not allow us to hunt legally at night?

You gotta be kiddin.

They can't coon hunt where he is from. Just aint safe.

I have now been pm'd and have been told to back out of the post. Because I am not a wildlife biologist. Did not know that was a requirement to post I did not read that in the sign up rules. That is all

That's hilarious! May as well fess up who pm'd it Especially to make sure no one thought it was me

Seven pages....woot woot!

What do I win?

Lunch with 49er!

They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

"I, …, solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution of the State of Alabama, so long as I continue a citizen thereof; and that I will faithfully and honestly discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, to the best of my ability. So help me God."

I'm not the problem and the people who raised the questions in this thread are not the problem. The problem is people at the DCNR and people who support them who don't mind lying in order to do whatever they want to do.


What is the difference in a common poacher and a man who will lie in order to use a depredation permit to violate the law with the blessings of the same men who swore to support our constitutions and to discharge their duties to the best of their ability?

I don't trust any of the three.

If you placed as much effort into those channels you could change the law....perhaps.

Just not sure why so much effort is placed here instead of Montgomery.

So 49er, you don't trust me because you have interpreted what I am doing, while discharging my official duties, to be unlawful?

Like I said, take your case to the legislature with a good lawyer and change it.

I'm for the people keeping government accountable, and it is full of corruption, but this issue isn't worth fighting given the severity of other potentially world-changing issues at hand. It has already been pointed out by several people that scientific collections are given exceptions as to the methods used for taking animals. If that doesn't satisfy you then take your case elsewhere. It does no good to run up 14 pages of bickering and posting current laws on a public site. Write the commissioner. Write Chief Moody. Write the legislature. If you placed as much effort into those channels you could change the law....perhaps.

SECTION 43
Separation of powers.

In the government of this state, except in the instances in this Constitution hereinafter expressly directed or permitted, the legislative department shall never exercise the executive and judicial powers, or either of them; the executive shall never exercise the legislative and judicial powers, or either of them; the judicial shall never exercise the legislative and executive powers, or either of them; to the end that it may be a government of laws and not of men.

That's hilarious! May as well fess up who pm'd it Especially to make sure no one thought it was me

Not if they remain within the law.

But they won't will they?

And if you're trapping and killing hogs and doing it at night with their blessing after signing a statement that you will abide by all laws, then your word ain't worth any more than theirs.

Nobody should have to lie to do what needs to be done, Barry.

I'm not the problem and the people who raised the questions in this thread are not the problem. The problem is people at the DCNR and people who support them who don't mind lying in order to do whatever they want to do.

Until that changes, maybe you're right. I'll leave it to God to be your Judge, but I would read his Word carefully:

Holy Bible:
Revelation 21




Depredation permit agreement:



Every peace officer in this state takes this oath before assuming his duties:



What is the difference in a common poacher and a man who will lie in order to use a depredation permit to violate the law with the blessings of the same men who swore to support our constitutions and to discharge their duties to the best of their ability, then arrest a poacher and let the liar go when they've violated the very same laws?

I don't trust any of the three.

But, does a landowner have the right to protect their land and their crops from feral hogs?

Okay I hunt hogs at night via my permit. Am I hunting in an unlawful manner?

Okay I hunt hogs at night via my permit. Am I hunting in an unlawful manner?

No it does not.

SECTION 21
Suspension of laws.

That no power of suspending laws shall be exercised except by the legislature.

SECTION 108
Suspension of general laws for benefit of individuals or private corporations; exemption of individuals or private corporations from operation of general laws.

The operation of a general law shall not be suspended for the benefit of any individual, private corporation, or association; nor shall any individual, private corporation or association be exempted from the operation of any general law except as in this article otherwise provided.

Why not just call a nuisance species a nuisance instead of game?

Why do you need a permit?



How does this affect those permits?

Constitution of Alabama 1901






Why not just call a nuisance species a nuisance instead of game?

The running down of our State Agency is meeting all new lows. These folks work very hard trying to manage these great resources for you but all you folks seem to care about is how they are not doing the job like you think it should be done or that they are against you. Bull crap!!!

Get off your soap box and get a life... or do you feel entitled to give them a hard time over every decision that the DCNR makes. Find something else to get on this one is getting old.

Wait, lets post pictures of the Director and AG shooting something at night and discuss how they are above the law...and conception data is useless...hunting night is wrong...

This crap makes me

It's not their job to manage game for me. That's the whole point. Their job is conservation of the species.

It is their job to administer the law, not make up their own.

It's not their job to manage game for me. That's the whole point. Their job is conservation of the various species of wildlife... not nuisance or invasive species.

It is their job to administer and abide by the law, not make up their own.

Conservation includes management.

Conservation includes management.

Conservation: 1939 – 2006
- Antlered bucks one per day entire season most years / limited or no antlerless seasons and bag limits.
- Successful restoration of the species from approx. 3000 members to 1.5 - 2 million.

Conservation + management: 2007 - present
- Three antlered bucks per hunter per season with antler restrictions and recording
- Unknown effects other than decreased hunting license sales and more government rules

Get over it. The large majority of hunters want qaulity since we have sucessfully restored quantity.

Other than more "rules", are there really any negatives to the three buck rule?

Also, we do work under a permit no different than a depredation permit issued to landowners to kill deer at night on their own property, except we are gaining very valuable reproduction data that you can not get by asking hunters. Asking 10 hunters when peak breeding occurs in an area is about useless. You'll get 7 different answers, maybe more.

Thank you Matt for all of the hard work y'all do for the betterment of the STATES deer population.

The reason an employee continues to work beyond his shift is immaterial; if the employer knows or has reason to believe that the employee continues to work, the additional hours must be counted. Id.

In all such cases it is the duty of the management to exercise its control and see that the work is not performed if it does not want it to be performed. It cannot sit back and accept the benefits without compensating for them. The mere promulgation of a rule against such work is not enough. Management has the power to enforce the rule and must make every effort to do so.

29 C.F.R. § 785.13. ...

... If from no other source, the Department had actual knowledge through the 1987 AMIP study that unreported overtime during deer hunting season continued to be a substantial problem despite the Department's 1985 written policy prohibiting all such work. The study also revealed that supervisory personnel had failed to fulfill the 1985 directive to monitor the officers' hours closely to insure compliance. The district court found that the hunting activity that traditionally caused deer season to be such a busy period of time continued after 1985, and that there was no fundamental change at any pertinent point in the amount of work to be performed by the officers. Complaints about the forty-hour rule were common and the subject came up frequently during the district meetings.

In the face of the continued peak activity during deer hunting season and its specific knowledge that the 1985 policy against overtime was not being followed, the Department had a duty to do more than to simply continue to apprise the officers of the policy. The Department had an obligation to "exercise its control and see that the work [was] not performed if it [did] not want it to be performed." 29 C.F.R. § 785.13. The fact that some officers were able to comply with the forty-hour rule did not relieve the Department of its responsibility to ensure that the remaining officers did not violate the rule. We therefore conclude that the district court erred as a matter of law by finding that the promulgation of the forty-hour policy, coupled with the ability of some officers to comply, insulated the Department from liability.

In addition, the district court erred as a matter of law by failing to impute to the Department knowledge of the inconsistencies contained in the weekly and arrest reports, which revealed that certain officers were not reporting the total number of hours they actually worked during the 1987-88, 1988-89 and 1989-90 hunting seasons. The fact that the captains made only cursory examinations of these reports because of their own lack of time for review does not excuse them from being charged with constructive notice of the information contained in the documents. As noted earlier, an employer is not relieved of the duty to inquire into the conditions prevailing in his business "`because the extent of the business may preclude his personal supervision, and compel reliance on subordinates.'" Gulf King Shrimp. Co., 407 F.2d at 512 (quoting People ex rel. Price, 121 N.E. at 474). This is especially so where, as here, the Department specifically instructed its supervisors to closely monitor the officers' hours to ensure compliance with the 1985 policy and knew, through the 1987 AMIP study, that such monitoring was not being accomplished. ...

X2! And the same goes for all the other DCNR hard working men and women!

X3

x4

Conservation: 1939 – 2006
- Antlered bucks one per day entire season most years / limited or no antlerless seasons and bag limits.
- Successful restoration of the species from approx. 3000 members to 1.5 - 2 million.

Eddie, you believe management had no any role whatsoever during this period? You believe conservation is possible without management?

Eddie, you believe management had no any role whatsoever during this period? You believe conservation is possible without management?

Why not help get rid of a lot of unnecessary rules so our state biologists will have more time for science instead of spending their time filling in as enforcement officers?

That's likely what they want as well. They are trained and hired as biologists, and that should be what they are allowed to be.

I've asked again for the reports Clem and I were discussing earlier. I've also found a bit of case law that offers some insight into what DCNR employee have to put up with from the leadership at the Dept.

It's not so much the employees who are the problem... its the bosses who assign them their duties.


Take a look at this:

Secretary of Labor v Alabama Dept. of Conservation *** click here ***




We would all like to think that those who have been delegated authority can be trusted to tell the truth. Looks like many of the men who were making arrests and were giving their sworn testimony in court as evidence were not as honest as we might expect them to be.

The courts found evidence of official time-keeping documents being falsified by enforcement officers in order to please DCNR leaders.

Makes you wonder what other false testimony they were willing to give, doesn't it?

And my question...

How can we trust that the nanny state numbers are right since they are SO corrupt. Hell, I heard ALFA told the DNCR to say 1.5 million so that we could all sleep better at night. The number is actually closer to 5k, 10k since dog hunting was banned in Tuscaloosa county.

I HEARD????? Oh heck, then it has to be true! And how in the world do you come up with your numbers? Does your career as a coal miner make you a better source of information on deer populations than trained game biologists?

Eddie, Barry is right. ---You don't need to keep poking your friends with a sharp stick.

EXPECTED!