Big Buck Project

What do ya'll think about it?
I just don't see how it could have any positive impact. Most of the bucks probably would not make it to the breeding season without getting shot. Introducing pen raised deer into the wild just is not reasonable.


http://bigbuckproject.org/

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2012/09/big_buck_project_takes_whiteta.html

I don't believe your going to change the genetic makeup of free ranging whitetails in Alabama. I believe it all comes down to money. Game breeders are just trying to find another way to make even more money from ignorant landowners. Personally I don't believe their going to be allowed to release deer into the wild anyways. So, its really mute point. Love to hear someone like BSK or Dr. Ditchkoff respond.

Here are a couple of Dr.Ditchkoff's quote regarding the release of the breeder bucks.

"Any time deer are moved across the landscape, risk factors for disease transmission increase," said Dr. Steve Ditchkoff, Professor of Wildlife Science at Auburn University in Alabama.

"Introducing a small number of breeder bucks into a free-ranging whitetail population is highly unlikely to affect genetics at the population level," said Dr. Ditchkoff. "Not only is survival of captive-raised deer often very low when they are released into the wild, basic science suggests that the genetic impact of a few animals would be quickly diluted."

I think those people don't know much about whitetail deer and enjoy wasting money.

I think it's stupid to tell people where you plan to drop them. That's gonna create all kinds of problems. But hey, if you got the money you could pay them to drop donkeys off. They don't care about genetics.

This is a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE idea. Not only is the whole concept scientifically dubious (the idea that "trophy genetics" are passed on in a straight line progression from large-antlered bucks; that there is anything wrong with the genetics of the local deer population; and that a few individuals released into a population of thousands would have any genetic impact), but risky to the point of outright irresponsibility considering that the translocation of captive deer is the primary agent spreading CWD into wild populations.

I read somewhere that 70% of what a deer will be comes for the doe. I asked several deer breeders and they say the same thing

You got it! So glad I don't live near there, I'd be using a lot of time trying to stop it. You folks in that area better start making some phones ring! If the deer releasers introduce CWD or anything for that matter, could they be sued?

my brother in law, who owns land in Marengo Co., showed that to me last weekend. I didn't want to argue about it but my feelings are it will not work, at all. Way too many variables in a free range herd and then you have years and years of genetics already in the native herd. If transplanting deer could change genetics then our deer would be the same size as Michigan deer...

My other opinion is some hunters are WAY too worried about genetics and killing "monster bucks". This can be accredited to hunting shows and bad education and misunderstanding. These "types" bother me more than the type that kill every buck they see...

so a hunter, like myself, that passes on dozens of buck(big and small) while waiting on a "monster" is worse than the fella that shot all the bucks I let walk.... ...thats some good thinking....NOT.

Yup. For the life of me, I can't understand why some hunters are so quick to jump all over the "genetics" explanation, when the real answer is so simple--habitat quality. Maybe it's because "genetics" is a simple answer that appeals to simple minds.




Agreed. They are for more dangerous to the welfare of deer than the young buck killers.

the passing of traits varies from deer to deer, just like cattle/horses/dogs etc. Some bucks breed true, some (a lot) of does throw buck babies that look more like their daddy than the buck they were bred to. 70% is just a wild ass guess...

Please explain to my dumb arse how my hunting style (average killing an over mature 5-6-7 year old buck every two years) is "more dangerous to the welfare of deer" than the fella that shoots the same buck( or several) at one or two years of age.

I'd say I'm having almost no effect on the local herd....

maybe you should read my post again...but then again, I thought you shot mature bucks, regardless of score, so what's your point? I've seen pictures of some of the bucks you've killed and in my opinion they are all trophies b/c of their age, but not many/ any would be considered "monsters".

I'll clarify...my issue or better yet my opinion on the subject is trying to change genetics in free range (esp. in Al.) is unachievable ,thus this "project" is a complete pipe dream and is clearly being orchestrated by someone that doesn't understand free range deer. My other opinion is that this "type" of hunter is bad for the sport...just like I believe penned hunts and breeder bucks are bad for the sport..and I would rather go back to a buck a day limit than have laws and regs change to support hunting over bait and bringing in genetically altered bucks... both are terrible but I think the long term consequences of the latter of the two is worse.

you're missing the point. This thread isn't about letting bucks walk and targeting mature bucks...it's about trying to alter the genetics of a free range herd by "brining in" bucks that have bigger horns... In fact the article says nothing about the fact that most bucks killed in Al. or 2 or younger...that has FAR more to do with the score of bucks being killing in Marengo Co. than genetics. My brother in law's place in Marengo Co. and surrounding area probably has some of the best bucks in Alabama. I wouldn't touch those genetics even if it was possible. They kill plenty of 140's and an occasional true stud.

I agree Bfred, I read every post about 3 times and couldn't make the connection to you. I think you did miss the point.

Here is what I know....good nutrition certainly helps deer grow bigger racks over time. However, in Crenshaw Co for example, the vast majority of your 4-5 yr old deer will not exceed 130-140 inches. I believe that throwing in some larger genetics into the herd while properly managing the domestic heard will certainly help. I think the idea of the big buck project is fantastic. I agree that it is not going to make a difference in Marengo county because they are not going to be able to raise enough funds to do it on a big enough scale to see results..especially since they are allowing hunters to immediately shoot the bucks they release. I'm in no way associated with the guys doing the buck project in Marengo county but when I heard about it I started thinking about how you really could make a big impact across the state.
Hear are my thoughts (just big picture)....
If the State of Alabama put with every hunting license bought each year an optional tag that cost $10 that would go towards releasing big bucks in your county of choice over the next 3 years. Then break it down in priority to the counties with the most tags.
If the Dept of Conservation was running this program and could have a few reputable dealers that could really check the deer for diseases etc and know that it would not be a threat to Alabama's Deer heard, I think it could really make a big difference.
Just thought I would throw a different opinion into the mix.

he didn't get no virgin, I've missed points before....

You kiddin'? Where in Alabama do the vast majority of 4-5 yr olds exceed 140? I'll not touch the rest of your post.

The post reads the vast majority will never reach 130-140". This is why I like the idea of mixing in some 180" deer to help bring some 150" deer into the area. Just my opinion.

I know, I got your point . Average 4-5 in Alabama is below 130-140, and will remain that way even if you release truck load after truck load of larger bucks. Wonder what those 180's that have been eating 25% protein in a pen gonna look like after a year of acorns and browse?

The 'Book' deer are in the 'Book' because they are much LARGER than average........

Some folks just don't get it.

Coondog, there are plenty of 150" deer in the midwest but you will have to be content with the 130" 4 year olds in Bama. Most guys would be very happy with a 130" buck.
You are not going to increase average antler size throughout the entire state with any method, especially introducing non-native deer. Really bad idea and I hope this is the last we see of it.

I think it has more to do with the dirt and what grows in that dirt than it does with genetics. I don't see how the Midwest could have just happen to have better genetics than everywhere else in the country but what it does have is better dirt. That is why I don't think this will have much effect.

It does, that's why Alabama and the whole Southeast varies so much in antler production. You have places with very poor soils and pockets with some that is pretty good and everywhere in between. Better dirt= better antlers.

It's illegal to release turkeys into the wild:

http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/codeofalabama/1975/coatoc.htm

Why is it OK to release deer?



Another issue to consider:

If these deer are untagged but have come from a breeder area and are "genetically" superior, that would intimate or indicate there are some genetic tests or records existing to prove these genes.

Someone hits a deer, veers off the road and sustains injuries or is killed. Blood from the deer (that was hit) could be tested genetically to see if they were part of these released deer.

Might be quite a liability issue with a good lawyer arguing in court about a private entity releasing animals and a state Conservation Department staying neutral.

Thats high level thinking for a member of the media.

I'd bet we will see something along those lines in the future.

If by vast majority you mean 70-75% at 130-140 inches, I would say that we don't and never will see that in Alabama. But that can be said for Iowa, Kansas, Wisconsin and every other state. It takes a very special buck to make those scores. The biggest difference in here vs the midwest is that they have a much bigger percentage of 4.5-5.5 year old bucks walking around. That and nutrition is the only major differences. Genetics matters some but not much.

If the state increased license fees and had extra money to spend the money would be put to much better use by hiring more game wardens and implementing a tagging and check in system....implanting breeder bucks isn't even on the radar, even if it didn't raise biological issues.

Anytime you use the word "dealer" and deer hunting in the same sentence or paragraph there is an issue, IMO

there are already native Al. bucks that can grow 180". Most get shot at 1 or 2 and most of the rest become nocturnal... that combined with the very small percentage that reach 180 is why you don't see many killed in Al....but they are here and breed every season. Why do you think releasing non-native bucks that have big horns will do anything? Are you suggesting that hundreds of 180" bucks get released or just a few...I'm just having a hard time seeing your logic here....besides the fact that your trying to manipulate the native deer herd and would likely cause issues with diseases, etc.

Like I said before...I'd rather hunt next to a "brown it's down" than a "let's genetically alter the deer herd"

Again, the nutrition factor is huge and I agree with what your saying about the dirt, protein, etc. However, genetics are huge and I don't think it would hurt to try. Bo Jackson weighed 230 lbs and ran a 4.2 40yd dash. 2 dogs more than likely didn't look or run like Bo. Those are genetics. If humans had horns and 2 dogs and Bo ate the same thing their entire life, I have to say that Bo is a 170" and 2 dogs is 130". Its just genetics.

Bo knows apples to oranges, people to deer, and I do get the point you're trying to make. Not that simple. BSK posted about this a week or two ago. Deer are one of the most genetically diverse animals on the planet, humans one of the least. I think I'm remembering it correctly.
The areas in Alabama that have the better soils could produce better antlered and bigger bucks, if they grow some quality food in those soils and let those bucks get 4.5+. IMHO

The state better not sit on their hands on this one. Better nip it in the bud, too much could go wrong. Heck, what do they even know about it?

My comment had nothing to do with "hunting style" and everything to do with the stupid things the "genetics" believers will do to promote those genetics, like release potentially disease-carrying pen-raised deer into the wild. THAT is dangerous.

Coondog4,

"Genetics" is only potential. Just because a buck has the potential to be a 180" buck doesn't mean he will grow a 180" rack even at full maturity. What a buck actually grows at full maturity is his genetic expression, and that is driven by what he eats, every day, year-round, his entire life. And good research is now showing that that buck's mother also must have been well-fed before and during her preganancy with that buck. Where in the Southeast can a doe get maximum food resources, every day of the year, and then her male offspring, from newborn through maturity, also get maximum nutrition every day of his life? THAT is what is required to grow his genetic potential antlers.

I've seen not one stitch of evidence that deer in AL have any different antler potential than deer in Iowa or Illinois. However, AL's much poorer soils and habitat than the Midwest prevents bucks in AL with huge potential from ever expressing it. A darn good reason exists why a map of B&C buck entries by county matches a map of soybean acreage and yields across the U.S. More crops are planted/grown in the best soils, and the best soils produce the best crop yields per acre. Deer eating lots of agricultural crops grown in highly productive soils grow the largest antlers.

In your example of Bo Jackson, he had the genetic potential to be what he turned out to be. But that is because he was raised in a country with the highest nutritional intake per capita in the world. What would Bo Jackson have been if he were raised in the starvation-plagued regions of Africa? He would not have grown into the Bo jackson we got to see. Lack of nutrition stunts growth, and lack of nutrition at a young age stunts growth permanently.

A marathon runner.

And if Bo had been shot as a 1 1/2 year old six point we would have never known what he would be. Glad he wasn't ,I sure enjoyed watching him play ball.

not any?


just for fun please define "monster" for me.....


just for clarification I am a trophy (big antlers) nut of the first order. I just refuse to shoot a three year old with a big rack knowing it will be a LOT bigger in two years. Age matters a lot with me.

you do know you ain't seen all of my bucks, bill won't let me show them on here....

for the record I agree with you on the success chances of the Big Buck Project....

troy

I am not as experienced as some in this discussion and I don't have a biology background, I'm just a regular feller. But at some point I would hope all of us as hunters (me included) would realize how to enjoy hunting for what it is and not what I wish it was based on what I have seen or heard about. To me there is a fine line between improving the deer hunting experience by land management/health of the heard (which I am in total favor of)and never being satisfied with what we got which in my opinion is a nice liberal season that allows choices through out the season. I battle this within myself a lot. I would like to work and make my land as good as it can be and just enjoy God's creation.

Excellent post Matt07.

Great post and something I have had to do a lot of thinking about myself. For the past 3 years I have provided the deer on our place with very high quality year round forage. I've improved the soil, the habitat and the groceries. I started this because I wasn't satisfied with what we had. What I came to realize is that what I wanted to achieve is not 100% attainable. I only have control over a small part of the deers total habitat. I can only lime and fertilize a small percentage of the whole. I don't live in the blackbelt, Jackson county or the TN river flood plain. A very good mature buck here will score 120" That's better than it would score 4 years ago, but not a whole lot. The main benefits I have seen are increased body weights, and an overall healthier appearing deer herd. I can live with that. I'll be just as proud of a 120" deer here as I would be a 150" deer in Jackson county. It is what it is.

There's plenty of that WAG going around, huh?

I used to think I needed to point out your "look at me" narcissism. I finally realized everyone else
could see just fine and didn't need my help.


We have a renowned expert here in BSK who is willing to share his knowledge with us and instead of listening and participating you've tried to turn this into another thread about you.

To everyone else ; sorry to hijack.

ain't about me , it's about what truedouble said, course you can't read that. I just disagreed that horn hunters are the ruin of all deer hunting.

btw, I listen to BSK, he is knowledgable in matters of deer. I just don't listen to know nothings like you bill, who just run their mouths.

I said mine was a guess, so from an armchair "expert" like you what % of bows hitting the woods next month will be properly tuned????

Ned,

Anyone with a brain should just leave that statistic alone. What's that saying? Better to keep folks guessing than open your mouth and prove it? But go ahead. It's entertaining to watch someone question others % and then insert foot at the same time.

so, in other words, you're just running that wanna be mouth again and don't have an opinion????

I really do think people need to take a long hard look at the motivations behind this growing antler score obsession. Why does it really matter to hunters? Is it is a personal test of hunting skill, or is it more about a peer-related motivation ("Let's whip them out and see who's is bigger")? What's the difference between a mature buck that scores 120 and 170? And yes, I know some smart-ass will say 50 inches, but that's my point. Is a 170 mature buck harder to kill than a 120 mature buck? Who is it that a hunter is worried will looking down their nose at the 120-inch mature buck he/she just killed? I'll bet it isn't themselves.

Well said and good points. As Americans and humans we are a competitive bunch. Antler size has always been the measuring stick. Now with the TV super stars on the outdoor networks it's in peoples face and they gotta have theirs. Personally the bucks I like the most are the "total package". Age, body size,antlers and the ones I have to really think to kill.
Is it wrong to shoot a buck because he has large antlers, no, I do think there is a problem when hunters become obsessed with it. There is a fine line, some can't walk it. IMHO
You're up kinda early on a Sunday morning.

EXTREMELY well said. I agree completely.




The "joys" of self-employment. Work schedules are rarely M-W, 9-5!

Well said. I agree with every word.

Hmmmm, not sure about this one. 9th grade biology would tell me its 50/50 between mother and father for humans and animals with sexual reproduction. You got one sperm and one egg each with half the DNA code.

And that's the problem. Most people have a High School understanding of genetics. Genetics are so much more complicated than what is taught at that level. In fact, when looking at what is taught at the High School level, the realities are so much more complex that it basically makes that High School level information incorrect. Very few genetic traits follow the simple Mendelian process of single dominant/recessive genes. We were all taught the simple relationship between brown eyes and blue eyes and how the combination of dominant-dominant, dominant-recessive, and recessive-recessive determines a child's eye color. Yet, in reality, eye color is determined by an exceedingly complex combination of at least 17 different genes.

Quite a few expressed genetic traits in one sex are inherited exclusively from the parent of the other sex. The best known example of this is male pattern baldness in humans. This trait is expressed in men, but can only be inherited from a man's mother. Nature is full of these relationships. A buck's genetic antler characteristics could be inherited exclusively from his mother. But the genetics of antler characteristics are not at all understood. We just don't know that much about antler development yet. The few scientific looks at heritable antler traits that have been done (and none of them have been extensive) definitely suggest the majority of single-generation expressed antler traits come from the mother.

Under Boone & Crocket guidelines, deer raised in a zoo or captive deer are not eligible for their record book. How can they continue to accept trophies for their record book from a state that allows landowners to release captive raised deer in the wild?

Yep, very true. Genetics is a fascinating area of study. I did not like school, but I gave very serious thought to persuing a post graduate degree in genetics. I may be the only Ag graduate in AU history to have loved the Drs Wooten genetics class..... Just think I could have been FurFlyin PhD

Since we are posting quotes from Dr. Steve Ditchkoff, added are 3 additonal ones.
Quotes from Dr. Steve Ditchkoff:

“At this time, there are no density-dependent diseases present in the Southeast that are important from a deer management perspective.”

“Wildlife biologists and managers have been transporting and releasing wildlife species as part of repopulation efforts or hunting programs for more than 100 years. These releases continue to this day with a multitude of species that include quail, pheasants, and multiple gamebird species, waterfowl, fish, and many others, in addition to white-tailed deer.”

“The degree to which captive deer herds are tested for diseases, specifically chronic wasting disease, far exceeds that to which wild herds of deer are tested. In all probability, if a deer was present with CWD in a captive herd, it would have a much greater probability of being detected than if it was present in a free-ranging population.”

Hmmmm... Something tells me those quotes by Dr. D are taken out of context.

Yes, we are lucky no major infectious diseases currently exist in the Southeast. But start allowing large-scale relocation of wildlife and that won't last for long.

Yes, many deer and other wildlife were restocked in areas where they didn't exist. And that is critical. You cannot pass a disease to the resident population when there is no resident population.

Although laws exist for the testing of captive deer for CWD, these laws are rearely followed. In addition, no known accurate live-animal test for CWD exists.

I'll never forget a talk I heard a few years ago at the Southeast Deer Study Group given by the Director of the Southeast Wildlife Disease Group (the premier authority on wildlife diseases in the Southeast). He said the #1 threat to wildlife in the U.S. is the translocation of wildlife--the movement of wildlife across regions. This is THE fastest known way to spread disease. Intrerestingly, the #2 threat was the artificial feeding of wildlife.

BSK, I don't understand why you are against what these guys are doing. It is legal, they cleared it through the state, and even if it doesn't work they haven't hurt anything. I'm all for trying new things and see if it works. Also, what is the difference in what they are doing and all the people that are doing it in high fences? They release thousands each year across Alabama in high fences.

Bo Jackson would be like a net 206"....One in a lifetime kind of deal...not a very good analogy... but I get your point...my point is the genetics are there for some exceptional bucks in Al. They just lack age mostly and then I'm sure some lack the nutrition. Genetics aren't the missing link

Because what they are doing is INCREDIBLY dangerous. They could be releasing deer wth who-knows-what diseases into the wild population. And they are placing the wild deer population at risk for no good reason. Deer in AL DO NOT have a "genetic problem" with antler development. They have limitations in their nutritonal intake. I have no doubt the deer of AL have the same genetic potenial for antler growth as the deer of Iowa and Illinois.




It shoud NOT be legal.




And politicians make good decisions?




It won't work and it could very well be disastrous. Let's see how you feel about how [i]they haven't hurt anything[i]" when CWD shows up in these areas.




I'm all for trying new things that 1) do no harm; and 2) have the potential to be beneficial to the deer herds. This has no such potential and could be extremely harmful.




Are you assuming I think high-fence operations are a good thing? I do not.

I'm sure you've killed some studs...my point is the guy that's trying to kick start this project seems to want to kill 170+ bucks on somewhat of a regular basis and seems to be a pure antler hunter, not a mature buck hunter. Just aint going to happen in Al. regardless of how old they are.

I would flip those. I've seen many, many locations with more than adequate numbers of mature bucks, yet those buck aren't growing large racks. Why? Lack of nutriton. Nutrition is #1 in growing large antlers. Age is #2. And before anyone says you can't grow large antler on young bucks no matter how good the nutrition, you need to work with me in KY and IL, and see the number of 150+ 3 1/2 and even 2 1/2 year-old bucks those areas are producing.

no offense, but your opinion and view on the topic is a little biased, isn't it? I have no personal issue with what y'all do as long as you keep it in a fence, but what you do and what we (free range) landowners do shouldn't be mixed and mingled...

I might be missing something, but the difference is their deer are in a fence... can't mingle with the native deer... and it's illegal, by the way, to bring bucks from other states, isn't it????

They aren't bringing in any deer from out of the state. That is illegal. Thousands of deer are released in Alabama every year that are bought from breeder facilities. They are released in high fences and in the wild. I know people who do this every year and has been going on for over 15 years now. The breeding facilities are state regulated.

For the post on these deer being in a high fence, last time I checked a wire fence didn't stop any disease, so my original question stands. why is this any different that releasing them in a high fence? And don't tell me they don't mingle with other deer, EHD is transmitted through insects bites.

Bryan, You are obviously a big supporter and sponsor member of QDMA. I understand your stance since the QDMA is against deer breeding operations. But here is my question. There is a guy in Marengo County named Mark Buxton. He speaks at many QDMA events and has even been given awards. He buys and releases many deer into Marengo County and even operates a small breeding facility on one of his management properties. Why doesn't QDMA come out against him. He has been doing this for years and still gets asked to speak at QDMA functions. Seems very hypocritical to me.

Longbow, I think you know exactly who bsk is. You show up here and immediately dive into this debate? What is your agenda? What stake do you have in this? If we are going to debate then lets atleast be honest about where our loyalties lie.

Could the agenda be someone that want's to make a lot of $ selling deer and could care less about the wild herd or average Joe hunter?

That encompasses everyone involved in the deer farming and penned "big buck" industry. And no one should forget that any harm done to wild deer populations by these industries helps these industries. Why wouldn't they want to corner the hunting market? They have absolutely no vested interest in protecting the wild deer populations from any harm they might do.

longbow76,

My opinions are my opinions. I do not represent the QDMA. I have been and still am a member and supporter of that organization. However, I do not agree with everything the organization does.

Bill, I live in Marengo County. That is where my loyalties lie. When I first heard about this project I was skeptical and had some of the same thoughts you all do, but being a resident here I felt like I should research what they are doing before I made any assumptions. There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that supports BSK's claim that this could be dangerous. A lot of quotes being used from people at the state are being taken out of context. From what I am hearing around town, you will see something in the paper in the next couple of weeks that has the real story of what Dr. Ditchcoff(spelling) and others in the State have to say about this, and it doesn't line up with what QDMA is reporting.

And there isn't anyone here who has told me why this is any different than what private landowners are doing in the state already. There are already lots of these deer being released into the wild all over the state. They have been doing it for over 15 years. Also, quail, bass, ducks, and various other animals are raised and released on a much larger scale than deer in Alabama. Why is that ok but not deer? I think you are barking up the wrong tree by attacking the guys who are trying to help out a poor community by adding some excitement and interest in one of the county's only revenue streams. If you have a problem with it, you should be talking about the state laws, not the people who follow them.

Let me get this straight, private landowners have been turning pen raised deer loose in Alabama for over 15 years. Who, where and more importantly, where did the deer come from , and where did the breeder deer for those turned loose come from? Has this improved genetics at all? Any data?

Provide specifics -- not just "a lot of people" but specifics -- on these two things:

-- those who have turned loose deer in the last 15 years "all over the state"

-- who in "the state" cleared this Big Buck project, because the DCNR says they have not and were not contacted.

The more longbow talks the clearer his identity ,and agenda, is becoming

Most of the questions you are asking are on their website. And you should just pick up the phone and call them if you want to know instead of assuming, that is what I did. If you look on the front page of their website there is a guy named Roy Jordan who has been doing it for years. Look him up and call him, I know him personally, he studied genetics at Auburn. He is a well known cattelman in our area.

On the second question, just pick up the phone and call Tutt Land Company and those guys will give you all the information you are making up things about, as well as the person with the state that this was cleared through. Those guys don't have anything to hide and enjoyed talking to us about it. They are aware of the criticism and said they didn't mind if anyone calls and asks them questions about it. They were very transparent with me. Just call them instead of assuming on this blog. Then come back on here and I will discuss it with you after you know exactly what they are doing and trying to accomplish. If you don't have a different outlook, I will respect your disagreement, but I for one am in favor of their efforts.

If these deer come from Alabama that are being released, that should show anybody that this project will not work.If they could not grow TROPHY antlers in the wild but they can in a fence,why do they think they can be turned loose and now they are going to improve the deer herd!?!? I ain't the smartest fellow around,but it don't take a genetic's phd to see this.I'm just a dumb ole doghunter.

Because they are not the same bloodlines. The breeder buck was the child of an Alabama doe that was inseminated with semen from a huge buck from somewhere else. In other words, his daddy wasn't from Alabama, but his mama was. You can import semen, just not live animals.

Also, I saw a quail hunt in Alabama where the quail were bought and the property was populated with pen raised quail. How is that any different?+

Longbow , you keep saying "they" when it looks like you mean "I."

Not "assuming" anything.

You're the one who said deer have been released all over the state. You're the one who said they have been approved by 'the state' when the DCNR says they weren't contacted.

That is what they claim. Call them and ask if you don't believe it. Or would you rather argue on the internet than get the truth about the subject?

Can somebody show me a study or research that proves this won't work? Once upon a time a lot of people thought the earth was flat. Just sayin.

Not a genetics expert, I'm thinking unless these people release several cattle trailer loads of bucks with "huge buck genes", in no time the huge genes will be mixed with native genes and become a non-factor. If this has been going on for 15 plus years, show us where it works. Where are all these free range Alabama super bucks?
I think these folks $ would be better spent on habitat improvements and raising the age structure, if they haven't already. All the super buck genes in the world not gonna help if they don't get the quaility food, and live to 4.5 +.

There are NO places in ALabama where the property was "repopulated" with pen-raised quail. They may have been "populated" for a few months but it does not result in a a self-sustaining population.

what deer from breeder facilities are released in the wild? That's the first I've ever heard of that.

took the words out of my mouth. My brother in law has a pretty large tract of land in Marengo Co. so I am somewhat familiar with the area and I have never heard of this....

so was the "daddy" "huge" just b/c he came from a state with a different name or was he huge because the land he came from had very fertile soil and row crops (mid west), was he huge b/c he was bottle fed, fed protein pellets every day and pampered like a pet bull or was he "huge" b/c of his genetics, or was he "huge b/c of all of the above?

Have you considered that you could probably take 100 bucks fawns from Alabama and release them in the midwest and they would score 10-20" more than if they had stayed in Al.? Nutrition (soil) and age is the missing link, not genetics. What research has big buck project done to prove that the genetics aren't here for "trophy bucks" in Alabama?

You are either misinformed or a liar. And I strongly suspect the second. The evidence that deer farming and "breeder farms" are spreading disease, especially CWD is clear. And once an area has CWD introduced into it, it is there forever, is untreatable, and always fatal.




That will be interesting to read. Considering the QDMA was created and run by deer biologists, and is the largest contingent of deer biologists in the country, I will be interested to read who disagrees with solid science and why.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/whitetail-365/2012/10/alabama%E2%80%99s-big-buck-project-delusional%E2%80%94maybe-dangerous


IDK if that has been posted but I just found it figured I would share

I bet there will be a live animal test before long. It will be interesting to see what happens to animal movement regulations when/if one is developed.

All you have to do is call the state and request the information. All state breeders have to verify with the state anytime they move or release a deer. I know several landowners personally who do this on a yearly basis and have been doing so for many years. I have personally witnessed deer being released.

A couple of things need to be clarified.
1.) Gary Moody said they had not been contacted, actually the DNCR was contacted about the project.
2.) All reputable biologist and deer experts agree Genetics are a important factor in growing large antlers. I study and raise deer every day and in my opinion Genetics are #1 factor in what a deer is going to have on his head, followed by nutrition, then age, in that order. Don't believe the misinformation that is the soil or poor management of the landowner, those are important but not the only answer.
3.) BSK, be careful of calling someone a liar. www.cwdmyths.com
A.) Many scientists and biologist are now questioning some biologist and organizations witch-hunt of our industry, because of the numerous CWD cases in the wild and the numerous cases where there are no breeder farms in the entire state or the area where it was found.
B.) "Blaming CWD on deer farming is either dishonest or ignorant. Maryland, New Mexico, Virginia and Wyoming all have documented cases of CWD, yet none of these states have a farmed elk or deer industry.
North Dakota and West Virginia have found CWD in the wild, while their farmed industry has tested thousands of animals, and all have been negative.
The simple truth is that farmed deer are tested, monitored and documented more heavily and frequently than wild deer, so it makes sense that, if the disease exists, we will find it more often where we test. But because we find it there doesn’t mean the disease is more prevalent there, it just means our testing and management controls are better there. To reach any other conclusion is simply lazy junk science or it’s intentional misinformation."
C.) Is CWD really always fatal as some have claimed?
CWD is not the massive contagion that some claim it to be. In fact, there has never been one documented case of a herd (wild or farmed) being lost due to a so-called “contagion” of CWD.
Some ‘experts’ have publicly promoted a theory that CWD would cause widespread depopulation of deer and other cervids within 10 to 20 years. However, there is simply is no evidence to support this theory. Actually, quite the opposite is true.
Evidence suggests that CWD routinely effects around 0.05 percent or less of the cervid population, and that cervids are in no catastrophic danger from CWD.
For example, the Colorado Division of Wildlife identified CWD in a wild elk in 1981, marking the first documented case of CWD in a wild cervid. If the above theory were true, CWD — as a highly infectious and uncontrollable disease unchecked in the wild — would certainly have wiped out all the elk in Colorado…right?
The facts tell a different story. The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation reports that Colorado’s elk population grew 50% to 70% larger from 1984 to 2009.
So, after 30 years since the first case of CWD was found, the elk herd in Colorado is as still as strong and healthy as ever.
The truth is that CWD has never wiped out a herd of deer or other cervid. The only destruction of herds, when it comes to CWD, has been state quarantine policies. Wildlife authorities in many states routinely kill hundreds of animals as part of their quarantine practices. If one deer or elk is found with the disease, they kill hundreds of animals and they usually find they were all perfectly healthy.
CWD has never had a negative impact on a deer population. In fact, the areas with no hunting, such as national parks, typically have the largest infection rates.

Here a clip from CWDmyths.com
http://youtu.be/vJmYPWJlpes

http://www.qdma.com/news/qdma-encourages-alabamas-big-buck-project-not-to-release-captive-deer-into

I hope 49er reads the article on your link. The evil QDMA worrying about nothing other than the score on a bucks rack........

Dream Buck, aren't you a member of the CAB? If you aren't then your brother is. Which is it?

I think it's really irresponsible of you as a deer breeder to push your personal objective when you hold a position on the board as you. You guys play Dr Frankenstein with the deer in your fences and leave the free range deer, free range. There is not enough science to PROVE that there will be no damage to the wild deer herd. The burden of PROOF must be the deer breeders responsibility.

What you guys are trying to do is dangerous, lacks judgement and most importantly isn't supported by science. I promise you this, if you continue to use your appointed position to push your personal objective, I'll start a statewide campaign to have you removed from the board. I'm sure Senator Scofield appreciated your families contributions to his campaign, but you aren't the only family in Marshall county to have any political influence.

Fur Flying,

I don't serve on the CAB, therefore your comments are irrelevant.

Dr. Ditckoff quote related to the science issue you address:
"Wildlife biologists and managers have been transporting and releasing wildlife species as part of repopulation efforts or hunting programs for more than 100 years. These releases continue to this day with a multitude of species that include quail, pheasants, and multiple gamebird species, waterfowl, fish, and many others, in addition to white-tailed deer.”

Also the quotes are from Dr. Ditckoff were from questions asked about this specific issue and not taken out of context.
Thanks

Then your brother does?

Dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Folks that think this will work have been duped. Before I get questioned on my creditials, I've got a Biomedical Sciences degree from Auburn, took extra coursework in genetics, and have hunted extensively in 2 seperate high-fenced facilities, one with breeder pens, one with pure native deer.

I can tell you that the genetics in Alabama already exist. In the high-fence with native deer, 5 years after the fence was up we had 150 inch deer. This was due to an intensive food-plot program that included up to 30 acres of soybeans and corn a year. Oh, and NOT SHOOTING YOUNG DEER. We have passed on so many 130-140 inch deer that it isn't even funny. We have also had to pass on 150 inch deer to see if they would get bigger. Some did and some didn't. Largest scored deer so far- 171 inches. Larges weight- 262 lbs. THESE ARE NATIVE GENETIC ALABAMA DEER. Bottom line, the genetics exist. The trigger control and the nutrition DO NOT in the vast majority of the state. In the areas where both do, you see folks consistently killing big deer.

In the wild?

dreambuck, what is your opinion on the reality that 180-200" genetics could already exist in native Alabama deer? Do you think the MW has better genetics and if so how do you come to that conclusion? I think they just have much better soil/ food and it's more huntable land.

What your facility does and what goes on in free range in the MW is like apples and poop. You are taking semen from the bucks that grow large racks and putting that in a doe, that has also mothered large horned bucks and keeping them in a pen. You are manipulating the genetics, more or less in a lab. This can not happen to free range... the genetics are already there, they are just spread out and random. free range is random, spruratic, nothing is the same, etc., etc. so mother nature has already proven that attempting to manipulate genetics on free range land is futile. It wouldn't shock me at all if there was a buck on my farm right now that has the genetics to go 170+ but that doesn't mean he will ever get there, or be seen if he did get there. Food, stress, age, and daytime movement would all play a part of this buck reaching his potential and then being seen and killed. None of these are an issue in a pen.

Looks to me like education of hunters is part of their plan. That lines up with what you are saying. Here is a snippet from one of their articles.

"Big Buck Project is determined to provide hunters and landowners with encouragement to improve the herd quality and build on Marengo County's already impressive deer herd. Big Buck Project is planning on releasing breeder deer around Marengo County in order to introduce quality genetics and help create a platform to educate hunters on how to manage Marengo County's deer herd"

Good post, keep them commin'.

Fur,maybe he works for them. I like to know how much they charge for their culls that some "hunters" shoot behind their fence, then claim to have shot in the wild.

Looks to me like education of hunters is part of their plan. That lines up with what you are saying. Here is a snippet from one of their articles.

"Big Buck Project is determined to provide hunters and landowners with encouragement to improve the herd quality and build on Marengo County's already impressive deer herd. Big Buck Project is planning on releasing breeder deer around Marengo County in order to introduce quality genetics and help create a platform to educate hunters on how to manage Marengo County's deer herd"

Longbow, I'll ask you again; why do you keep saying they when you clearly are referring to yourself. Nothing wrong with defending yourself but you'll lose all credibility when it's found out that your involved in the project and acting as if your not.

How does that line up with what jamesm 1976 said ? I didn't see a word about habitat ,nutrition and age. Sounds to me like "they" want everyone to release a trailer load of "super bucks".

this may be a rumor that i have been hearing for the last 6yrs but supposedly the Cahaba WMA had deer imported from other states and released there 15-20yrs ago. I've never heard it from a professional but I have seen some giants that come off of it. I grew up in that area and spent alot of time out there and not once did I ever see deer like the once coming off of it since becoming a WMA. If what I heard is true then it Cahaba WMA is a testimony that it can work. If its not true then Cahaba WMA is a great breeding ground for great deer. I'm not saying i agree or disagree with doing it.

Bill, since you seem to think you know everything and that everything is a conspiracy, I will indulge you this one time. Then I will not address any of your lies again.
I am not a sponsor/partner or any variation of for the Big Buck Project. I am but a citizen of Marengo County, but we all do know each other in this small area and I know the people that are involved and also others who do things like this around the county, like Mark Buxton(who speaks at QDMA events, operates a breeder facility in Marengo County, and releases captive deer every year). I simply think this is a good idea for Marengo County after all of my research and contacting people involved. Until someone can show me hard evidence that it is a bad idea or dangerous I will continue to verbally support their efforts to help our community.

I will continue to verbally support their efforts to help our community raise the cost of deer hunting. [/quote]


Ain't this what you meant to say!!!!!

I just read an add for this in the Linden Newspaper. I had previously not read anything on it before except here.

Here is a link to the ad (the website for Big Buck Project calls it an article).

AD

I am not getting into any of the it is good or bad, frankly, I don't care. I hope one of those monsters walks in front of me. But, I know Roy Jordan. I figured he was involved. He told me last year he was going to do this and was trying to figure out how to keep people from shooting them. He also has done it in the past without anyone knowing. He previously released bucks and bred does on his land. I got that from the man himself.

The way I look at it is this. IF he wants to waste his money on this, it is his money. I don't think (I am not a biologist) that this few number of deer are going to make any difference or spread any illness.

Ain't this what you meant to say!!!!! [/quote]

No that is not what I said. There are thousands of jobs because of hunting in our area. If somebody is doing something that may bring in more hunters and create more jobs in that industry I am all for it.
My sister is a teacher and was laid off due to cuts this year, I know she would love to see some jobs come into the area. It amazes me people like you who are against economic growth of our area.

So now it's economic development.

You brought it up.

Fur, plenty people across the state, from Tenn. line to the Gulf have their eye on Mr. Ainsworth on the Cab board. He screws up ,you won't have any problem getting help, and a bunch of it.

I think Alabama in most areas of the state has inferior genetics compared to the Midwest and Northern States based off where the deer originated from the initial stocking in the 1900's, however there are some exceptions in the state such as Bankhead Forest.

Article In AON
Alabama's Top Bow Buck... And From a WMA!
By Nick Carter
As far as public land goes, there is not a piece of property in Alabama that produces big bucks like Bankhead National Forest’s Black Warrior Wildlife Management Area. Year after year, the WMA consistently produces trophy-class bucks, but none of them hold a candle to the buck Randy Coffey killed there in December of 2000.
The first known restocking attempt in Alabama occurred in 1925 when the Department of Game and Fish and the U.S. Forest Service purchased 105 deer from Michigan and released them in what is now the William B. Bankhead National Forest.

“The different rut dates are apparently indicative of different genetic populations of deer,” Bill Gray said

"Many areas in our state were stocked with native Alabama deer, and those deer have a January rut date. But we also have some areas that were stocked with deer from Michigan and North Carolina that rut earlier.”

“The Bankhead Forest has about 180,000 acres and is the largest public land holding in the state,” biologist Ron Eakes said. “It’s a rugged area, but it’s not as steep as Skyline or Choccolocco. Some of the biggest bucks in Alabama are being taken here.”

So even Biologist agree that different subspecies/genetics of deer produces different rut dates and contribute to larger antlers.

As far as why i think that, here is why.
We have numerous clients that have high fenced their property and their story is all similar.
1.) They high fence their property.
2.) They pay a biologist to help them manage their property for age, sex ratios, nutrition.
3.) They have had their place managed from 4 to 30 years depending on the client and the largest deer any of the clients have shot was in the 170's.
4.) They see they have a genetic problem, not a age or nutrition problem, so they kill many of the native deer.
5.) They restock with superior genetics, and all clients are producing 170-220 huge frame typical deer consistently.
One client for the first time has 2 yr olds that score 200 and he managed his place as good or better and never shot a deer over 160 before.

So its obvious to me that on the same ground with the same management techniques, that when you implement genetics, and you get different results, genetics are the difference maker.
Common sense really.

And it looks like all the businesses are beating down the door to join up. Oh wait, there are still just three according to the website that has been updated enough to add a news ad from last Thursday.

So the quality of a deer herd is now defined by antler score?

4.) They see they have a genetic problem, not a age or nutrition problem, so they kill many of the native deer

So we need to kill our native deer and start over???

This WILL work in a high fence,but not in free range deer.

Anthony, or 2dogs if you prefer, sounds like you have a personal vendetta.

Maybe not the quality but it definitely has an affect on the size of the check you write to shoot one of their engineered pets.

"introduce quality genetics" from that statement one would conclude that there hasn't been a deer over 130 killed in Marengo Co. in 10 years.

There are already great genetics in Marengo Co. I can show pictures of just a few of the many really good bucks taken in Marengo over the past few years...

1)If you can grow a 170 inch deer you DO NOT HAVE A GENETIC PROBLEM.

2)These efforts will NEVER "restock" the wild popluation.

If someone was trying to do this in Jackson Co., I would care. They can throw all their money out the window for all I care but releasing bucks and does would have a direct effect on the deer herd in my area. This I would have an issue with. I'm not a purist but at the same time I don't want to kill a 160 and have to question if it is a native buck or one of the bucks released. I would think this would be a common concern through out the state, by hunters that are more about the hunting and achieving goals through habitat improvements and letting bucks get older than by the perceived instant gratification of shooting breeder bucks. I guess patience, hard work and dealing with what mother nature has dealt you is just not enough these days.

No, I didn't bring it up, you said "economic growth".
Vendetta, don't think so. I along with many others think this is a bad idea.

Some clients harvest some of the native deer, some do not,but they still get similar results. The client that leaves the native deer has a larger range of antler scores. I'm not recommending killing all the native deer, just introducing genetics that have genetic abilitiy to produce B&C deer.

No that is not what I said. There are thousands of jobs because of hunting in our area. If somebody is doing something that may bring in more hunters and create more jobs in that industry I am all for it.
My sister is a teacher and was laid off due to cuts this year, I know she would love to see some jobs come into the area. It amazes me people like you who are against economic growth of our area. [/quote]

economic growth should be merely a bi-product of hunting...we should never jeopardize the health of the deer herd for economic gain. This is where being a good steward of the land comes in to play. your opinion on manipulating deer to grow the economy is a scary concept to me. And as far as Marengo's economy, I'm sure most would agree it's a lost cause...need to fix the real problem b/f we start trying to alter genetics in attempt to create a few jobs. JMO

another good point

Just looked at the pics on that article. Don't look like those super genes doing much good to me.

1. what is your definition of inferior genetics?
2. Has anyone done any research to conclude your theory?
3. Do you consider Alabama's habitat, soil, huntability, and the high percentage of yearling bucks killed before coming to the conclusion that the missing link must be genetics?
4. Have you every thought that considering the soil and available food in many parts of Alabama that a buck that reaches 140-150 would need incredible genetics to get there, where as in the MW a buck could have "good" genetics but eat high protein food every day for 4 years and easily hit 140?

Just some thoughts from the other side of the spectrum...

Re-stocking (importing deer in an area where there are no deer) is not even close to being the same as adding more deer to an already high deer population. Both from a disease point of view and also from a genetics point of view.

Vendetta, noun: Disagreeing with someone who has no science to substantiate their arguement.

You can candy coat a dog turd and you've still got a dog turd.

ALL this is, is an attempt by deer breeders to open up another source of income for themselves. They're trying to convince a group of hunters to buy a super buck, turn him loose and improve their antler scores. The pen raised boys throw around terms that most people at best marginally understand in an attempt to sound like they are doing a great service to the state. If this becomes common practice it will accomplish 2 things. It will increase their profit margins by allowing them to sell inferior sized pen raised bucks as super free range genetic boosting bucks, and it will drive the land lease prices up to the point that joe sixpack can't afford to lease land.

I know a few guys that raise deer. If the deer don't score well over 200" at 2 years old, they're inferior. A 190" pen raised buck could be sold to a hunting club as a superior buck.

If this is such a good idea, and you pet deer ranchers want to help increase the size of the racks for the hunters of AL to harvest, and you're so certain that it will work, why don't you turn a trailer load of those bucks loose on the largest couple of WMA's in the state?

I am amazed 9r hasn't weighed in on this!!

No-one has noted that if I owned land in Marengo county and enjoyed hunting a "genetically pure" Alabama deer, this DIRECTLY and NEGATIVELY impacts the enjoyment of my own property. If I consider it a risk of disease, genetic dilution, whatever, they shouldn't be allowed to infringe on my rights as a landowner. If this is such a great idea, why don't these folks fence in their own land and let em go there?!

My $.02

That is interesting. Anybody know anything about this?

I don't see you in an uproar about the quail, duck, and bass that may be on your property that are genetically impure. The quail hatcheries claim that they are releasing "genetically superior" bob whites on peoples property. What do you think of that?

That tells me all I need to know about you. You are anti-Marengo County obviously.

Yep, where's 9r? So much material, so little time! He could smoke his puter on this one.

Gob, good point BTW.

I've heard of being anti American or anti big government but anti marengo county? Your grasping at straws. Lol

You bring up a good topic. I am a Marengo County landowner and have spoken with many friends who are also Marengo County landowners about this, so far there has not been one of them that didn't support the project.

So as a show of hands to see who has a dog in this hunt at all, which of you posting on this topic owns land in Marengo County?

So any diseases that could be introduced to the wild deer herd will stop at the county line? Whew, that's good to know.

First off, I can see both sides of this argument, and honestly I had never really given a lot of this information much thought before this thread. But, after reading through this thread and some "professional" material outside of it have developed my own opinions.

I haven't participated much in this conversation because it has been really informative and has been interesting to hear both sides of the arguments. But, longbow76, I can't help but to believe you are in someway directly affiliated with this project, and it seems you are pushing your own agenda. There is a MS forum that I am a member of and the Big Buck Project was brought up on it. You also joined that site on 10/1/12 to support the project against the opposition over there.

I turned this one loose is Alabama, for the right money I will email you a map to his bedding area. No guarantees expressed or implied,haha



All kidding aside, I too believe this is simply a way to make more money for a few deer breeders. One of these "trophy" bucks from some of these ranches will fetch anywhere from $3000 to $20,000+. I am sure some are even higher. While a straw of semen from them is less than 10% of that and high bred does which are already bred by these same bucks are $1000 to $3000.
Now if I was a believer in this whole scheme and had 10,000 acres of land to try this on I would much rather trap 20 wild does and buy 20 straws or even buy 6 or 7 bred does, than I had buy one big buck that would have a much better chance of being killed if he strayed off my property. My numbers may be off some here,I just checked one website that had prices listed so if your deer farm is different please excuse me. As for Bankhead ,yes they have some big deer there. BUT until 20 years ago or so when they stocked the south ALABAMA deer in there there was only 27 deer in the WHOLE dang forest! The northern deer stocked there in the 30's never populated the place for some reason. I read once that they thought they were dying in the womb or as fawns due to a GENETIC deficiency that made them more susceptible to a native parasite.

Funny how that happens ain't it?

longbow, tell me why quail and ducks are released? Is it to increase numbers or provide a duck or quail of superior genetics. "IF" Alabama's deer herd was decimated you probably wouldn't hear any one object to bringing in deer that could potentially have off spring with good genetics, since you are already brining in deer anyway....but you are wanting to insert genetically altered deer into a healthy deer herd. If we all had plenty of wild coveys of quail on our land do you think any of us would go out and put more quail out?

by telling the truth, I'm anti-Marengo Co.???? Like I said my bother in law has family land there that I hunt on several times a year. IMO one of the top 2 or 3 counties in the state for killing a "trophy buck". But I've driven through Union Town, where his grandmother grew up and lived and I just don't see a lot of hope. No, I'm not against Marengo Co. and if something could help the economy I'd be all for it for those like yourself that live there, BUT not at the expense of our native deer herd... "IF" this was really about the economics...

hmmmm

Longbow is involved in the project and is being dishonest about it. If he had good science and facts he would just tell the truth about his identity instead of trying to keep others from questioning the program. I'd bet you could start this topic on any forum board and once it shows up on a search engine he won't be far behind.

Uniontown is in Perry County.

Heres "what I think of that"! If there is a quail duck or bass released on my property, I released it! The bass stay in the pond they were released in, the quail usually leave in the teeth or talons of a predator and I am opposed to releasing ducks for the same reason - they will end up somewhere else. I frequent a LOT of quail hatcheries and know a lot of producers in central AL, south GA and north FL and they DON'T have "genetically altered" quail, especially those raised and altered for a particular physical trait.



I am not a Marengo co landowner, but have clients that are, who I discussed this with and they don't like it for the same reasons I don't, hence the original comment I had regarding this misinformed and misguided "project".

Regardless, it this a democratic decision? Kinda like 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner??

sorry, you are correct, but it's with in a few miles of Marengo Co. They are both in about the same boat, IMO

I am a land owner in Marengo County and I have been following this thread. I also know the guys who are doing this project and they have put a lot more thought into it that most of the people I see on this thread. I could not help but comment after seeing the above post. Here are my questions.

Who said their deer were going to be genetically altered? From what I understand it is no different than quail that are hand selected for their "genetic superiority" accordind to this farm http://www.blackcreekquailfarm.com/WQTR.html


For you to think you can release quail on your property and any disease they have can't be spread to the other property is very hypocritical to say.

Nice another new member here to save the Big Buck Project. You know longbow76?

what do you think genetically altering is? The BBP definitely doesn't follow the same guidelines that mother nature uses....

and comparing quail to deer? we release quail and like someone else said 95% either get shot or eaten by a a yote or bobcat. BUT if they do survive and IF they do cross our property line they will end up on property where there are 0 quail anyway....so why does it matter?

Stop being Neanderthals. Think about what you are doing.

Why Sport Hunting Is Cruel and Unnecessary

"Sport" hunting is a violent form of recreation that has left countless animals maimed, and orphaned animals vulnerable to starvation, exposure, and predation. This activity disrupts natural animal population dynamics and has contributed to the extinction of animal species all over the world, including the Tasmanian tiger and the great auk.(1,2)

Although less than 5 percent of the U.S. population hunts, hunting is permitted in many wildlife refuges, national forests, and state parks and on other public lands3 where almost half of all hunters slaughter and maim millions of animals every year (by some estimates, poachers kill just as many animals illegally).(4,5) The vast majority of hunters do not kill for subsistence.(6)

Municipalities and other entities often resort to hunting in an attempt to reduce urban animal populations, but lethal methods never work in the long run and often backfire. When animals are killed or removed, a spike in the food supply results.(7) This causes survivors and newcomers to breed at an accelerated rate—and populations actually increase.(8) The result is a pointless, never-ending, and expensive killing cycle.

Pain and Suffering

Many animals suffer prolonged, painful deaths when they are injured by hunters. Bowhunters often spend hours tracking the blood trails of animals before finding them. Many are never found by hunters.(9) Our office routinely receives reports from upset residents who spot animals wandering around with gunshot wounds or protruding arrows. In cases in which euthanasia is not feasible, weeks can elapse before victims succumb to their injuries. It is also not uncommon for us to hear of wounded animals running wildly onto highways, posing grave risks to commuters.

An estimated 20 percent of foxes who have been wounded by hunters must be shot again to be killed. Ten percent manage to escape, but "starvation is a likely fate" for them, according to one veterinarian.(10) A South Dakota Department of Game, Fish and Parks biologist estimates that more than 3 million wounded ducks go "unretrieved" every year.(11) A British study of deer hunting found that 11 percent of deer who'd been killed by hunters died only after being shot two or more times and that some wounded deer suffered for more than 15 minutes before dying.(12) A member of the Maine Bowhunters Alliance estimates that 50 percent of animals who are shot with crossbows are wounded but not killed.(13) A study of 80 radio-collared white-tailed deer found that of the 22 deer who had been shot with "traditional archery equipment," 11 were wounded but not recovered by hunters.(14)

Hunting disrupts migration and hibernation patterns and destroys families. For animals such as wolves, who mate for life and live in close-knit family units, hunting can devastate entire communities. The stress from which hunted animals suffer can severely compromise their normal eating habits, making it hard for them to store the fat and energy that they need in order to survive the winter. Stress can also cause animals to bound onto roadways, abandon their young, or become weak and succumb to parasites and disease.

Blood-Thirsty and Profit-Driven

To attract more hunters (and their money), federal and state agencies implement programs—often called "wildlife management" or "conservation" programs—that are designed to boost the numbers of "game" species (since killing individuals will prompt surviving animals to breed at an accelerated rate, resulting in more animals in the long run). These programs help to ensure that there are plenty of animals for hunters to kill and, consequently, plenty of revenue from the sale of hunting licenses.

Duck hunters in Louisiana persuaded the state wildlife agency to direct $100,000 a year toward "reduced predator impact," which involved trapping foxes and raccoons so that more duck eggs would hatch, giving hunters more birds to kill.(15) The Ohio Division of Wildlife teamed up with a hunter-organized society to push for clear-cutting (i.e., decimating large tracts of trees) in Wayne National Forest in order to "produce habitat needed by ruffed grouse."(16)

In Alaska, the Department of Fish and Game is trying to increase the number of moose for hunters by "controlling" the wolf and bear populations. Grizzlies and black bears have been moved hundreds of miles away from their homes. Two were shot by hunters within two weeks of their relocation, and others have simply returned to their homes.(17) Wolves have been slaughtered in order to "let the moose population rebound and provide a higher harvest for local hunters."(18) In the early 1990s, a program designed to reduce the wolf population backfired when snares failed to kill victims quickly, and photos of suffering wolves were viewed by an outraged public.(19)

Nature Takes Care of Its Own

The delicate balance of ecosystems ensures their own survival—if they are left unaltered. Natural predators help maintain this balance by killing the sickest and weakest individuals. Hunters, however, kill any animal whose head they would like to hang over the fireplace—including large, healthy animals who are needed to keep the population strong. Elephant poaching is believed to have increased the number of tuskless animals in Africa, and in Canada, hunting has caused bighorn sheep's horn size to fall by 25 percent in the last 40 years—Nature magazine reports that "the effect on the populations' genetics is probably deeper."(20)

Even when unusual natural occurrences cause overpopulation, natural processes work to stabilize the group. Starvation and disease can be tragic, but they are nature's ways of ensuring that healthy, strong animals survive and maintain the strength level of the rest of their herd or group. Shooting an animal because he or she might starve or become sick is arbitrary and destructive.

Not only does hunting jeopardize nature's balance, it also exacerbates other problems. For example, the transfer of captive-bred deer and elk between states for the purpose of hunting is believed to have contributed to the epidemic spread of chronic wasting disease (CWD). As a result, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) has given state wildlife agencies millions of dollars to "manage" deer and elk populations.(21) The fatal neurological illness that affects these animals has been likened to mad cow disease, but the USDA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention claim that CWD has no relationship to any similar diseases that affect humans or farmed animals, so the slaughter of deer and elk continues.(22,23)

Another problem with hunting involves the introduction of exotic "game" animals into the wild. Animals who are released or escape from game ranches often form populations in the wild and are subjected to cruel eradication efforts when they are considered "invasive." For instance, the game ranching (also known as "canned hunting") of boars has caused feral swine colonies to become so pervasive that some states across the U.S. are allowing them to be cruelly gunned down from helicopters.

Canned Cruelty

Most hunting occurs on private land, where laws that protect wildlife are often inapplicable or difficult to enforce. On private lands that are set up as for-profit hunting reserves or game ranches, hunters can pay to kill native and exotic species in "canned hunts." These animals may be native to the area, raised elsewhere and brought in, or purchased from individuals who are trafficking in unwanted or surplus animals from zoos and circuses. They are hunted and killed for the sole purpose of providing hunters with a "trophy."

Canned hunts are becoming big business—there are an estimated 1,000 game preserves in the U.S.(24) Ted Turner, the country's largest private landowner, allows hunters to pay thousands of dollars to kill bison, deer, African antelopes, and turkeys on his 2 million acres.(25)

Most game ranches operate on a "no kill, no pay" policy, so it is in owners' best interests to ensure that clients get what they came for. Owners do this by offering guides who are familiar with animals' locations and habits, permitting the use of dogs, and supplying "feeding stations" that lure unsuspecting animals to food while hunters lie in wait.

Animals on canned-hunting ranches are often accustomed to humans and are usually unable to escape from the enclosures that they are confined to, which range in size from just a few yards to thousands of acres. Many states, including Arizona, Montana, Utah, and Wyoming, have limited or banned canned hunts, but there are no federal laws regulating the practice at this time.(26,27)

Other Victims

Hunting accidents destroy property and injure or kill horses, cows, dogs, cats, hikers, and other hunters. In 2006, then–Vice President Dick Cheney infamously shot a friend while hunting quail on a canned-hunting preserve.28 According to the International Hunter Education Association, dozens of deaths and hundreds of injuries are attributed to hunting in the U.S. every year—and that number includes incidents involving only humans.29 It is an ongoing problem, and one warden explained that "hunters seem unfamiliar with their firearms and do not have enough respect for the damage they can do."(30)

The bears, cougars, deer, foxes, and other animals who are chased, trapped, and even killed by dogs during (sometimes illegal) hunts aren't the only ones to suffer from this variant of the "sport." Dogs used for hunting are often kept chained or penned and are denied routine veterinary care such as vaccines and heartworm medication. Some are lost during hunts and never found, while others are turned loose at the end of hunting season to fend for themselves and possibly die of starvation or get struck by a vehicle.

Wildlife Control in Urban Areas

Municipalities seeking to reduce wildlife population numbers can do so effectively and humanely by implementing an integrated, adaptive approach. Effective wildlife-control plans focus on containing food sources in residential areas and modifying habitat in riparian (wetlands adjacent to a natural waterway) and wildlife corridors.

A key to keeping wildlife populations in balance in urban areas is to ensure that free-roaming, healthy wildlife are never artificially fed. Animals who are artificially fed lose their fear of humans and begin to approach residents (who mistake them for being rabid or aggressive) as well as hunters! Feeding also causes animals to breed at an accelerated rate, resulting in more animals. The more animals you have in a small area, the more likely they will be perceived as overpopulated or as a nuisance, especially when they start to eat flowers, damage gardens, or defecate on sidewalks. Many people and municipalities will quickly resort to killing unwanted animals (using poisons, trappers, and other inhumane methods) in a misguided attempt to get rid of them.

Information for municipalities and other entities about how to control deer humanely in urban areas can be found here, information regarding goose control can be found here, and pigeon-control information can be found here. For our guide to living in harmony with wildlife at your home or business, please visit this page or e-mail PETA at CIDinfo@peta.org.

What You Can Do

Before you support a "wildlife" or "conservation" group, ask about its position on hunting. Groups such as the National Wildlife Federation, the National Audubon Society, the Sierra Club, the Izaak Walton League, The Wilderness Society, and the World Wildlife Fund are pro–sport hunting, or at the very least, they do not oppose it.

To combat hunting in your area, post "no hunting" signs on your land, join or form an anti-hunting organization, protest organized hunts, and spread deer repellent or human hair (from barber shops) near hunting areas. Call 1-800-628-7275 to report poachers in national parks to the National Parks Conservation Association. Educate others about the cruelty associated with hunting. Encourage your legislators to enact or enforce wildlife-protection laws, and insist that nonhunters be equally represented on the staffs of wildlife agencies. Urge agencies to seek revenues through kind, environmentally sound activities, such as wildlife photography, bird watching, hiking, kayaking, camping, and canoeing.

Looks like The Project is mobilizing their lobbyist to spread their propaganda and combat those who want scientific evidence that the benefits outweigh the risk. Where is that research? The burden isn't on those who oppose this project.

I wonder if the anti hunting posters IP address comes back to a marengo address? Wouldn't surprise me if the Project guys, here, wanted to change the conversation and curb criticism of Their potentially dangerous and unresearched experiment.

Now it's getting really good! This could be the all time greatest Aldeer thread! Fresh Koolaid anyone?

I see people on here using a lot of negative comments on how the guys at Tutt Land Company view hunting. One of the guys in charge of the project writes for Great Days Outdoors. Here is Hale Smith's article in this month's edition, what do you think about his view?

[/quote] I may be the only Ag graduate in AU history to have loved the Drs Wooten genetics class..... [/quote]

Fur-

It's official... You're INSANE

Tell Hale Smith to get on this forum and we'll debate openly the merits of his arguments and his interpretation of the "data" that was collected by a secret committee of the Commissioner's choosing.

It will be hard for me to debate him effectively, given the restrictions an aldeer moderator who disagrees with me has placed on my posting here, but I think maybe I can manage if he is willing and patient enough to wait for my responses due to the restrictions.

[Depending on the permission of aldeer owners and moderators to allow such a free exchange of opinions and ideas of course.]

Anybody know on average how many does a buck breeds during the rut?-It ain't many...

How many years do you think these released bucks are going to survive?-Not long...

How much genetic impact does that 1 buck make?-Not Much, if any...

Plain and simple this is makes no sense biologically or mathematically. It would take hundreds of bucks to change the genetic makeup of Marengo County.

All I have is WTF is that shucks ^^^ have they been booted yet? If so carry on I am enjoying the debate and an stoked the 9er is involved now! Even if he blocked me!

How do you know that they are not going to release hundreds of deer? I am hearing that they may have enough landowners coming on board to do just that.

I'm sure they would love to release thousands...more $$$ in someone's pocket

I go back to the point that native Alabama deer already have the genetics to grow trophy racks...

Thanks for the moderator notification. I showed them the door.

I don't... yet, but I know Walter, Hale and Roy very well so I will find out.

And for one these guys are all good business men and this makes poor business sense. Where is the rate of return for this project? What do they get out of it? A few dollars in lease revenue does not make up this kind of investment...

Jeremy, since you work at Soterra, I am sure you know Walter well enough to call and ask him about it and well enough to know he didn't dive off into this without sound advice. When I talked to them they didn't say anything about rate of return for themselves. They were talking about creating a platform where they could grab enough attention to educate hunters and try to get more people on board to work together on managing the deer herd in the area better. Although, they did tell me that they had a long list of landowners who had called and wanted to put money in and drop off some of these deer on their properties. .

So big buck propaganda??? We make you think there are more big bucks out there cause we have released these super genetic bucks, so you let the young bucks walk...

Is that what you are leading to? Actually helping our deer herd by tricking the hunters into not shooting young bucks.

I am just curious at why this is going on... It is a very strange idea. It just seems like a waste of money to me. It is so very hard to improve genetic structure inside an enclosure with multiple subspecies of deer, to think it would work WELL in the wild is confusing. That's all.

I just want to understand the reasoning behind it, then I can make a decision whether or not what they are trying to do will work.

Jeremy,
If anyone took the time to call and ask them about it like I did instead of relying on bad information, they would realize that they say they will improve the herd by "releasing deer AND EDUCATING HUNTERS". Why don't you just pick up the phone and call Walter today, then if you still want to bash them you are entitled to your opinion, but I have to say bashing someone with his reputation before getting the information straight from him is acting as delusional as you are saying they are. All I am saying is get the facts then state your opinion. You openly admitted you knew nothing about it yet, but you started bashing it immediately. So you are talking about something you are uninformed about.

Quote where I bashed anyone! I made it a point not to. I gave my opinion based on what is biologically sound. A very biased opinion toward Walter, Hale and Roy in my opinion. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt for now.

Dang it, I was thinking of inviting him and YEKRUT up for a hunt!

You are giving your opinion on somehthing you don't have information on. As a wildlife professional, your opinion carries some weight with it. I would hope you would be conscientious enough not to put your opinions out in public on the matter before you had the facts of it.

Didn't need more info on to figure out whether or not the science made sense. Just needed info on whether or not the reasoning made sense...and it does.

I now have ALL the facts after talking with Walter and my opinion is the same biologically speaking. Changing the genetic makeup in the wild is a hard thing to do and even tougher to prove. I know their goal and it is pretty simple once you delve into things a little deeper.

These guys had an idea they wanted to try and went through the proper channels to make it happen, so we will see what happens.

Care to share what their goal is? Also, how many deer do they intend to release?

Don't know of anyone bashing them...just the idea. What would be wrong with trying just education and leave the herd alone? Our area of the state (Jackson Co.) is a good example of what education and habitat management can do. 15 years ago probably well over 50% of hunters would kill the first buck they saw. Now I'd guess that 75% of hunters in Jackson Co. are killing 8 point or better and the results are definitely clear and multiple 150" and over bucks are killed every season...but I guess a 150 or 160 isn't big enough for some..

Also, BBPer's have yet to address the genetics in the native herd. If I call "them" are they going to have some hard data showing that Marengo Co. bucks are of less genetic caliber than a MW deer? Since you have called "them" I'd like to know what bad information is being given on here that "they" could dispel.

but who is to say that the genetics aren't already "good enough"? Has anyone done any research to show that the genetics in Iowa are better than in Alabama? Sure I know the genetics aren't like they are in a breeding facility, but is that really the goal, or is the goal to have more 140, 150, 160 and an occasional B&C? Either way, it's not going to work, but just trying to rationalize their though process.

Not my place to say exactly. But lets just say if people in Marengo Co. have somewhat more trigger control hoping the spread of these genes works and native and released deer get older and the genes do spread then they have a giant success. If the genes don't spread as hoped and there is still more trigger restraint, there is still a big success.

I had rather not jump too deep into it...

And I would hope you, who implemented this project, wouldn't have done this without proof that it wouldn't be harmful to the native population. This should be the only thing that matters. Just because someone has the resources to make unresearched , reckless decisions that impact others doesn't mean that they should be allowed to conduct those experiments at the detriment of others.

The BBP says they are genetically altered - for 200" antlers! This is a normal Alabama deer:



THis is a genetically altered deer - bred in a penned breeding facility for exceptional (200 inch genetics) antler growth (who knows what other modifications have occurred since it is in a pen and does not deal with the stresses in the wild), similar to the BBP deer. This deer has a hard time holding his head up due to the weight of the antlers - yes, very natural:



THis is a normal Alabama quail:



This is a genetically altered quail (They are genetically superior due to hand selecting breeding birds). Not sure what that means - hand selected or genetically superior - what traits did they select for? how does it exhibit? How many generations?



Do you REALLY see a comparison between the two??

Nothing hypocritical here. The diseases that quail have in a pen are also endemic in the wild.

What is the point of this? Is it important because he writes for GDO? If so does the fact that I write wildlife management articles for several publications make me more qualified? I disagree with him on most points, especially shortening the gun season just to extend it! He seems a little discombobulated when he says we need to "lay our rifles down for at least a portion of the deer season" because we are overharvesting bucks, then says "extend the deer season" so we can kill more bucks. WTF?

If you want to tout him, lay out his credentials - a biologist?, any degrees?...... Were there ANY biologists involved in the formation of this "project"? If so who??

I know a couple of these guys as well and they are good guys with good intentions. However, I think the project is not only misguided but doomed to failure (since altering the genetics of Marengos co's deer herd is the objective and an unobtainable objective). These guys do forestry consulting, own a timber business and loggers, as well as the real estate business. I would think that this is a HUGE platform if education of landowners "on managing the deer herd in the area better" is the REAL objective. Pretty simple when you own the bully pulpit - show by example... quit thinning pines like a forester and thin them heavy, do more burning, manage the landowners property to produce enough HIGH QUALITY food for the EXISTING deer herd to express their genetic potential. In other words, put your money where your mouth (and education) is. That may be too much to ask for a timber company though. The answer to "better managing Marengos co's deer herd" is NOT releasing pen raised bucks with "200 inch genetics". It IS in HABITAT MANAGEMENT. In other words, make it look like this:



Sorry Dogs...couldn't hep myself

WOW, also just noticed on the BBP website that by releasing 2 (yes just 2) "breeder bucks", it will result in 2,429 breeder bucks in 5 years! Easy goal! Whoa.

I'm good with the pines for show and tell on this one. They got any hardwoods down there for those 2 super bucks and wanta see what good hardwood habitat looks like, I'm their Huckleberry. I think we got them covered either way.

Okay, I am typically a observer on this website, but this topic hits close to home. I am from Marengo county and trained in the fields of wildlife management/forestry.

A few posters have mentioned all this but..

It is virtually impossible to control genetics in a wild population. I think age is the number one limitation facing our deer population, after that, nutrition.

So, there is one Marengo county native with some experience that is against this project.

They releasing breeder bucks or hogs? LOL

I agree with your comments on improve the habitat to maximize the genetic expression.

Dang. Did a simple dose of common sense kill this thread? No responses from longbow or justhangin?

Looks like some hunters are going to be having fun soon......
http://bigbuckproject.org/2012/10/10/big-bucks/

He may get shot before the season even opens.

Are they gonna have ear tags? I hope so,of course it won't matter.Somebody will shoot him any way.

Glad your back! Was hoping you would be able to answer the questions I had:



Couple more RE, having fun...
I thought they were going to release them to breed? If so, shouldn't no one have fun with them this fall? Kinda hard to pass on the "200" genetics" if it's dead.

How about the educational aspects of habitat management I was inquiring about?

So should I put my name in to have a deer released on my place?

Jeremy, I agree with you buddy. You're not bashing anyone.... you're just stating the science and biology of deer mgmt.

I'm all for this project. Do I think it's going to make a qualifiable and plotted difference? I have my doubts but like you said Jeremy, if people show some restraint in shooting immature bucks, then it's worth it.

I know Walter and Walter cares about.... well, Walter cares about a lot of things and he's good man. More power to him.

This is unconfirmed, but from what I am hearing as of lately the bucks may not have tags in them. What I am hearing is that they will be releasing a lot of bucks like the one in the picture without tags and that all the bred does they release will have tags in their ears.

Well if they are already releasing them that confirms what I said to start with. It's all about money, no way I would turn one like that loose till a week before the rut starts. You turn ten like that out now and none will breed a doe because when the rut gets here they will be getting stretched over a nice sneaking pose form at a taxidermist shop somewhere. Again if this is a legitimate deal .........Why not turn out 50 bred does instead of 8 or 10 bucks? It would cost about the same (I think) and they would be FAR more likely to survive till they give birth than the bucks.I can assure you that 9 out of 10 hunters in this state will shoot that buck if he gets the chance. Pen raised trophy bucks gonna make it till breeding season,haha yea right....................................

Been doing some reading on their site. Here is a quote from them,am I interpreting this right?

According to multiple studies conducted from Texas to Florida over the past decade, the following represents an average compilation of whitetail reproduction data across the southeast:

Average number of does bred per breeder buck: 5

Average fawn birth rate per doe: 1.5

Fawn survival rate (recruitment) 50%

Attrition rate: 45% during 2nd year, 68% during 3rd year, 84% during 4th year, 90 % during 5th year, 93 % during 6th year, 96% during the 7th year, 98% during the 8th year, 99% during the 10th year, 100% during the 10th year.

1 buck breed 5 does which makes 7.5 fawns.
half of those fawns die which leaves 3.75 fawns.
by the second year 45% of that 3.75 have died (attrition) that leaves 55% or 2.0265 2 year old deer.
On average half of those will be does and half bucks so that is 1.03125 of each so we can pretty much say that after two years if they turn loose 10 of these trophy bucks they will have doubled that to 20 IF none of the original 10 have been killed (not likely) I know that the doe fawns will pass on the genes too but this is about bucks apparently. So am I reading this right or am I missing something? I looked at the chart too and I think that is WAY overstated. I hate being negative about this deal but it still smells fishy to me. Also after looking again at the release picture I want to change what I said earlier about that deer......99 out of 100 hunters in this state will shoot that deer if they get a shot at it. and a pen raised deer will give someone a shot very soon. It will cause a division of the area hunters when someone shoots a "stud" buck when it ventures 5 miles from where it was released . I will start the over/under at 63% of the released bucks will be dead after the first weekend of gun season.

[i][/i][u][/u]

Ill take the over please Sir

Holy chit, you money hungry frankenbreeders are better spin doctors than Obamas campaign manager.

On that website, one of the articles title is, State Vet says, "This is the way to do it." When in actuality, this is what he said:

"The licensed game breeders are cooperating in the CWD monitoring program completely. If they're (organizers) going to do it, this is the way to do it -- with the assistance of the licensed game breeders."

I have seen deer trailers near Tutt Land Company's office several times this week full of does and bucks. Looks to me like they are dropping them all over the county already.
Also, I have a buddy that says he saw one in the woods already.

Will this buck qualify for AON's truck buck contest? Or any of the other Big Buck contest throughout the state. If it's killed legally, outside of a high fence, then he would qualify right? This is going to get real interesting when someone kills one of these giants.
What about the Alabama whitetail record books. Is there a way to disqualify these deer if they are harvested. Just a thought. Someone may have brought this up but there are too many pages to go back through and check.

I wouldn't think it would be much of an issue for contests. If they are releasing hundreds of deer how could you ever prove which one was which anyway. I think it would be kind of like the fishing tournaments at Miller's Ferry, there are captive raised bass released into the river as part of of program but they don't test the fish they catch in tournaments to see if they are one of the captive bred ones. Or like the trout they release into the streams in other states, if you catch a state record trout they don't do any dna test or anything to see if it came from the breeding facility.

So, if someone kills a 170-class whitetail down there in three or four years, the BBP can't trumpet its release program as a success.

Because "how could you ever prove which one was anyway" would negate any kind of "this came from our deer!" claims.

This has got to be some of most stupid chit I've ever heard of. How many cattlemen do you know that would buy one $10,000 bull and put him in a pasture with 2,500 other bulls and 10,000 cows and expect to improve his cow herd. There is NO sound science involved in this and anyone who claims otherwise is a misinformed fool.

Do the frankenbucks released have Northern genes or Tx genes in them?

I'm sure they've got some Northern genes in them, so what is that going to do to their offsprings immunity to EHD that most of our native deer exhibit at least in some amounts? Does anybody think of this crap BEFORE hand? CWD isn't the only disease to worry about.

IDIOTS.

Brad, with zingers like "frankenbucks" it seems to me you have a personal issue with deer breeders. Is that the case?

I am not talking about an offspring of the breeder buck. I am saying if I kill the buck in that picture or one of his 200" buddies that we know for a fact came from a high fence facility. If I enter a 180" deer into a big buck contest and the deers picture is on the BBP website showing it jumping out of a trailer. Seems that it would stir up some trouble.

Hey Brad er...Fur, this thread needs jacking, question, of that 53% are you a 1% er or a 52% er? I'm a 52 myself, and proud of it. Guess if we were 1% ers we could buy some Frankenbucks.

http://www.qdma.com/news/qdma-encourages-alabamas-big-buck-project-not-to-release-captive-deer-into

Well now, what do all them fellers with them fancy de-grees know?!
Look at comment #5.

I'm gonna post on this one time and one time only. This is some of the DUMBEST chit I've ever seen allowed in wildlife arenas in my entire life! If I lived in Marengo County and were privy to information surrounding the release of these deer, I would hide and gun those pets down when they stepped off the truck. Stupid, shortsighted, ridiculous, greed-driven, unscientific, nonsense!!!!!

Not as long as they keep them in their pens I don't. I know some deer breeders. Nice guys, normal just like me, but they don't push their schit down other peoples throats either.

Now you on the other hand, I'm starting to think we could have problems.....

Since you seem to be representing the deer breeders, do you have problems answering questions and backing it up with science?

I'm not too good at math..... LOL

It seems to me you have a personal issue with this project. Is that the case?

Oh wait, that is a question, which you seem to avoid answering.

I'm thinking of getting into breeding genetically superior squirrels. Right now I have a couple of good leads on some breeding stock in Wisconsin and Texas. I just need a deep pocket backer to get the project off the ground. Any takers?

This isnt as big of an issue a some of yo are making it! I agree that releasing a few bucks into a herd isnt going to help the marengo county herd the way they hope it will, but these deer are checked by the usda and not only that i would guess that 90% will be dead before the christmas. But i have a bigger issue with 50yr olds tht shoot fawns than i do with guys that try to help a herd even if its foolish. But there seem to be way to many people on here crying about all of this! How many of you are Bilogist or have a degree in wildlife management? I suspect that most of the angry hunters on here dont have a clue. I live in the county next door and my wife actually owns land in several parts of marengo and 99% of the local hunters and land owners over there are supporting this and curious about its reults. So if you live in hours away and dont hunt or own land dowm here then shutup!!!

Also most of the deer you guys up in north alabama are hunting came from michigan and oh marengo county! So deer have been transplanted in alabama for years. Also if it wasnt for trapping turkeys and moving them most of the counties in north alabama wouldnt have turkeys! Look at quail and ducks, theya released every day in our state. Almost all of our lakes and rivers at some point have had stocking efforts done. This is not that new of an idea and it goes on all the time. These guys just went out and published what they were doing instead of just doing it. I agree this is a waste of money but it aint my money!

Here! Not in wildlife but I am an animal and avian biologist by degree and training.

What are the deer checked for by the governement other than CWD?

While you're at it, since you are obviously a biologist and since these things have little effect on anything, what effect did it have on the native cavity nesting birds in the US when some dude in the mid 1800's released a handful of European Starlings and European House Sparrows in Central Park in NY? It was just a few birds.

How about Silver Carp?

Fire Ants?

Kudzu?

and 10,000 other examples?

Granted these were all non native species, but do any of these deer carry parasites or viruses non native to the AL free range herd?

THIS IS OF OUR STATES DNR WEBSITE!

The majority of deer restocked in Alabama were from sources within the state and assumed to have been O. v. virginianus. Deer from several other states, including Arkansas, Georgia, Michigan, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, and Wisconsin, were used to a much lesser degree in restocking several areas around Alabama. Those restockings included deer from as many as six different subspecies of whitetails, including O. v. borealis, O. v. macrourus, O. v. osceola, O. v. seminolus, O. v. texanus, and O. v. virginianus. Due to the variety of stocking sources, many locations in Alabama may contain deer with a combination of ancestries that cannot be placed in a single subspecies. As a whole, it is assumed the majority of deer in Alabama are of the Virginia subspecies since 56 of the state’s 67 counties were stocked using this subspecies.

Yes, Mr Biologist?, it was done that way. The deer were also restocked when there were no deer in the areas being stocked. Guess what? If the deer they brought in had diseases and were immune to them, there were no native deer for them to spread the diseases to.

Im not talking about axis deer,elk,rain deer,sheep,ect. What effect would fire ants from georgia have oon our native ants? What about kudzu from mississippi on our native kidzu? Your examples made no sense. They are not transporting a new type of deer here.

There were deer here! Go look at the last restocking efforts and look at the dates. They were restocking deer here in the late 70's. What about thurkey and all the other wildlife? This is not a new idea!

This is about to get good!!! Let me be the first to say that you ain't gonna make many friend by registering here 3 months back and posting such BS. This has the potential of being detrimental to deer statewide if it is allowed to happen. Furthermore the deer stocking you post about happened years ago before there wasn't ANY data on such things. I know in the 30's they stocked deer in Bankhead that were from Michigan. When they stocked them there again a few years ago it was with deer from south Alabama. Furthermore ,I don't care if your wife owns ALL of Marengo county and half the golden gate bridge, the deer there are no more yours(or hers) than they are mine!!! Don't be tellin nobody to shutup!!! You might be taken a little bit serious if you wanna debate the issue,but that's gonna get you nothing but ignored.

They didn't have unintended effects on the ecosystem?

Come on be honest, are you Joe Biden?

So how long do i need to be a member on here before i can be your friend? Thats all i want is to be taken serious and to earn respect from you. I mean i dont want to know you as firefighter Bill i want to one day can you Willy. And Willy ive never said i own any deer or the golden gate bridge, i just simply said that the residents down here seem to invite this idea. And My friend if there was any evidence that said this would hurt the herd i would be against it. And even more if i thought this was going to not let me in the cool forum hunters club i would have never type this! So here it goes i hate this idea, and in fact i agree with you and furflyer now. Ill go as far to say that they should catch all the deer in the Bank Head and send them back downm here. Oh and since we have a bird lover on here lets not stop with the deer, return all the turkeys back down here also! Now since we got that out of the way, lets talk about me becoming a member of the cool forum club. Hey if you let me in ill let you come stay at my camp and go hunting. Just PM me a pdf to fill out please.

Did the deer Flurflyin have negative effects of the current herd? Hey i was just upset at all the negative post about something thats going to be done on a small scale and i thought that this was getting a little over heated. Listen i hate Chiz and VP Biden and i do believe if your a biologist that you know more than i do. Im just saying people dont get upset when they start taken turkeys and quail and replanting them. And all of the hunters up where you are ought to be glad that this isnt the first time this has happend because if it was you might hafta drive to marengo to hunt!

I'm yer huckleberry!! Since I AM a wildlife Bilogist and have a few degrees in wildlife management, can I speak? I also work regularly in Marengo and surrounding counties. Glad you are here to regulate who can talk or who has to "shut up".

So you have a problem with 50 yr olds shooting fawns (which has no real effect on the herd) but are fine with this "project" that had no input from any wildlife biologist (or bilogist) as to it's potential negative effects on our native deer herd?

This is NOT the same as trapping wild (WILD) turkeys and moving them around the State in a restocking effort. This is more similar to releasing pen-raised turkeys into an EXISTING wild population... which is ILLEGAL in Alabama, for good reason. Wild turkeys (nor quail or ducks) are "genetically modified" for a particular trait.



What is a "rain" deer? The fire ants in GA are the same as here and have the same effect on our native ants. We have NO native Kudzu. Talk about not making sense!

How about you... are you a Bilogist or have a degree in wildlife management? I suspect that you might not have a clue.

Im sorry rein deer! Your right Kudzu is a invasive plant. I am not a biologist but i do hunt with the best known one in the state. He told me that most of the deer that are in these pens are healthier and more disease resistant than are native deer. And i may have this wrong but i dont think there has been 1 single captive deer in the state that has tested positive for Blue tongue. That i could be wrong abou,t but i was told that. And yes i have a issue with adults killing fawn and even more a issue with adults killing does with little fawn in bow season. This is not science basd just a ethical issue. But im sure you can tell me why im wrong.

Have you even read this thread? You say "show me proof" and you have at least two biologists who regularly post here who have said it's a very bad idea. IN THIS THREAD there is a link to a very important quote. It read....."“Any time deer are moved across the landscape, risk factors for disease transmission increase,” said Dr. Steve Ditchkoff, Professor of Wildlife Science at Auburn University in Alabama." That alone is good enough for me to be against this issue.

Nope don't think I wanna hunt at your camp. I am afraid I wouldn't leave as a friend and most assuredly wouldn't be invited back because if you talked to me in person in that condescending manner it wouldn't end well for one of us.All this talk of staying at your camp and talking about willy for some reason kinda makes me wonder about you anyway. The more you talk the more I think I might need yekrut's stick to keep you off "willy". If it were up to me you would have already been shown the door here.

Hmmmm,if some of those deer came from Ohio,Wisconsin and Texas, the "super genes" are already here. Why aren't 180"+ very common like people think they are in the areas they came from. Why release more ? Habitat and age. Those new Frankinbucks and their offspring gonna be eating the same food, out of the same soil as the deer that are already here.
BTW there were no deer in Northeast Bama before restocking, it was a true restocking program on the part of the State, and boy did it work!
There's more to this than releasing super bucks and procreating little super bucks from them in the wild.

Lay it out there!! Who is is. If he is "the best know in the State", I am sure I know him and visa versa!



Yes, you have it wrong, so wrong it is rather pitiful. I know of one high fence that lost 5 deer LAST MONTH from blue tongue.



Can't tell you wrong or right here, that is an issue each individual has to work out for themselves. The only problem I have with it is you seem to have an issue with OTHERS doing it when it is NO business of yours, perfectly legal and biologically sound.

....."“Any time deer are moved across the landscape, risk factors for disease transmission increase" my point was this isnt a new idea, that was my point this isnt a new idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you believe man is the cause of globle warming? Lot of scientist have said it, not proved it. My response to you was about you basically saying since i have not been on this forum long i cant disagree with one of the cool kids! I took that as your special becasue you get on a deer hunting forum every day. Oh and i guess if there is a person who disagree's with you then you'd rather have them gone. And as far as condescending goes go read the last 10 pages. The reason i posted on this was all the guys on here trashing a couple of people i know personally. Guys that did consult biologist and vets on this before they conducted there project. Not all biologist work for our State!!

I do have a ? for the biologist on here. The gnat that causes this disease do we have them in alabama? Can just any gnat transmit this with a bit or just a certain species? Not being a SAss just a question.

Neither do I.



EHD is transmitted by a biting midge, Culicoides spp, not a gnat. If the virus it transmitted in Alabama, we, obviously have the midge.

I am no biologist but I can tell you that Alabama does have the midges that carry ehd/blue tongue. We have cases in this state I would assume most every year as do many other states. It goes unreported because unless there is a drought or other circumstances to make it worse ,it never get to a critical level. Deer in a fence have no more protection from this disease than free ranging deer so I don't know what you even brought that up.

I didn't say you couldn't disagree but when you tell everyone who disagrees with your argument to shutup you told me all I need to know about you. I guess it really wouldn't have mattered if you had been here for 10 years and had 10,000 posts, it would have still come across as being a smartass.

Right my ?is do we know if we have the midge or is it a wait and see deal? Just wondering, i just got back from Illinois and between me and my party we found more dead deer in the creeks than has been reported to the state for that county! I wouldnt want it here for sure and im not for anythig=ng that would cause that to happen. Im just know that the the guys everyone on here are bashing have consulted with biologist and vets. Why people take 1 article from our SFW and run with it. As far as i was told by these guys all deer will be testd for disease before they are to be released.

And they also claimed to begin with that they had the approval of the state. Now we are hearing that that was a lie. I don't see how this deal could have any affect on EHD in this state good or bad. But there are many things it could affect

Damn, that marengo county bunch has really come out of the woodwork defending this voodoo experiment. I don't think they figured on their propaganda being challenged by several experts that are members here.

What the hell is so important about this project that the marengo county deer mafia is Having to deploy propagandist to every hunting site in the southeast? Are these deer really cocaine mules? Are they actually extra terrestrial aliens , in deer form, trailered in from area 57? I don't get what the need is to try and get everyone in the hunting world to support it. You guys keep saying it's only in marengo county so no one else should be worried about it. So why are you guys working overtime trying to sell it to people that you shouldn't be concerned with? It is obvious which posters have an actual stake in the program. I just don't get what all the hoopla is about. This project has got to mean more to these guys than just releasing some deer and trying to grow bigger antlers in their county. Something smells.

I was not talking about protection from this disease. Also i guess my point is if a deer was release with this disease then he would soon die. He could infect other deer before he died, but all deer affected by this would die out by winter and there would be no lsting affect. The total number of deer would not be large in numbers since they issue isnt midges but 1 single deer affecting maybe a couple more. This would be worst case! But again i was told by the imdivisuals that test would be conducted on all captive animals before they where purchased. They them selve dont have any interest in buying a $5000 deer thats going to die in a month! Oh and me saying shutup was to the people on here not that are trashing some pretty good guys who have consulted with diffrent biologist and vets. Trashing people when you have no idea about whats has really gone on, well maybe that tells me what i need to know about you. It goes both ways!

EHD is already here, the project will have no effect.
I answered your questions, how about mine? Who is the "best know biologist in the State?
Who was the biologists(s) that were consulted for the "project"?

Bill, I agree that the hoopla is all about nothing. Just in a diffrent way. If you read my first post i said this was bascially a dumb idea and wouldnt work. I just take offense to guys trashing these men for trying to do something for their community even if its not going to work. I see you are from greenville, i just left the Big city of Pine Apple. Do you hunt over in that area?

Dang, I just can't get Longbow, justhangin and now you (all sent in to defend this project) to answer ANY questions. Y'all come in trashing and demanding answers to your questions but won't answer any of your own.

Well im not going to put the name of another guy on here but my friend is a younger guy and his first name starts with Ga! He is on the QDMA show and in several magazines. He's is young but very passinate about deer. If you know his name dont post it please. As far as who they consulted i would guess westervelt but i didnt ask. There are several biologist in the area that work on larger farms and plantations down here. But again i didnt ask. Email them they will let you know im sure. Also if the project will have no effect on EHD then whats the fuss?

My friend did say that this would have little long term effects on the genetic of the area. He said cool idea but thats about it!

Hey i think i became a 3pointer after all theses post!

CWD and genetic modifications is the fuss

He ain't "the best know biologist" if I don't know of him. Westervelt has come out publicly AGAINST this project as has QDMA (so much for your guy). Westervelt went as far as to float the idea of offering a bounty for any one killing one of these deer.

I hope they all get shot opening day... So this discussion will be over..

? Gobble did you know Claude Nelson?

I think i said one of the best, maybe i didnt but he is very well known and respected! Westervelt was a guess! I have no idea who they talked to. Go to auburn deer program and he the only one they talk about and i realize that QDMA hates the idea and theyare against it but he is on their show and on i think Game keepers so some one thinks he knows something! Also doesnt the usda require all deer in pens to be checked for CWD?

Nope, knew Dave well and sons, no Claude.

Claude worked for the state for years and was the head biologist for the state before he died a couple of years ago. A good man, nothing to do with this pissing contest but just thought you might have known him! He help us with our properties. He was from demoplis area. Great guy.

Manages some of your properties? Now, what properties might those be?

David Nelson......killed in an accident soon after he retired. Good man, I worked with his a good bit.

and ya'll are making my head hurt....

Another biologist here with a question? Everyone is talking about introducing ehd or blue tongue by stocking these deer (or the possibility anyhow). Here is my question, if the deer in the pens already have it, can the midge not fly out or over the fence and bite a wild deer? The deer in the fence would have had to be bitten right?

I do some work for a high fence operator. I do think you need genetics, but I think it is mostly food. Those guys poor the feed to them.

some of ya'l are confusing CWD and EHD, a common mistake. EHD is here, has been here, and ain't going away any time soon.

CWD is different and we don't want it here..ever.

what "genetic modifications" are we talking about.....

Your right i think it was David Nelson. I think claude might work for the afw association. I have the names mixed up, Claude is a good man too. As for what i ment about prperties We have some family land as does a couple of good friends. We sometimes get them to help us. Anyway im done with the pissing contest yall win i give up, my hands hurt! Good luck monday!

That's something that puzzles me, why release them now? They could be shot, relocate, etc. Why not early in the breeding period? They might want to stick around and have a little fun. BTW the rut in LA is after season closes so they might not get shot. This makes no sense for so many reasons. Maybe getting shot opening day is the plan .

You are losing credibility. Dave was a great guy and a good biologist, however NOT the head biologist for the state, that would have been and is Gary Moody. Claude Jenkins is a biologist for the AWF and in my discussion with him yesterday, he also stated his opposition for this project. Know any other bilogists that support this project??

David was the head of the doe tag(DMAP) program for the state, and the biologist for (then) District 3. Gary has been the head of the Biology section of DCNR for a number of years.

Never said they supported the idea! You said you knew most biologist and i simply asked if you knew them. I had my names mixed up, i ment Claude Jenkins not Claude Nelson. Is Claude not the leading biologist on deer for AWF? It might not be a tilte but from what i gather thats the case. That's who i was talking about. Again i simply ask if you knew them. Your trying to put words in my mouth. I simply had their last names backwards. Im sorry if i asked you a civil ?. I can also say my first impression of you is you are not in the same category as these 2. You come across as someone who just likes to bitc# and act as if you are important. Thsi whole thing started by me saying to the guys that are simply not informed in whats going on in marengo to shutup, and stop trashing people. You said yourself that EHD is not and issue, you also said CWD si what your worried about. Well as you know all of these deer are reqirred by law to be tested for CWD. Is this a good idea NO, ive said that. I wouldnt give $1 to help it. I thinks is stupid, im just saying that when people have another opinion than yours, and trys to help others you should be thankful. Now if you dont believe in what they are doing and thinks that its not worth the risk then act like an adult and contact them. The fact you come home and log onto a forum and act like a super star and trash others tells a lot about you. These guys have said to us that these deer will be tested before they are released. The State of Alabama has said though they are not for it, it is legal. If a couple of land owners want these deer to be placed on their lands than thats fine with me. I think its a waste of time, but its their right. As it is your right to come on here and portray yourself a important.

Well i dont know these guys offical titles, i just was asking if the guy knew them. I have a high opinion of both of these guys, I could care lesee if he was head of the DMAP or the turtle program.

But thanks BhamFred i couldnt remember exacly!

Hey Bham is Colter surveying still?

wouldn't know now, I retired in 05, not much contact with em.

polywaug, not beating on ya...educating, but there is no live animal test currently available for CWD. Dept has a dead animal test for it, and tests a lot of enclosure deer from all over the state, and free range deer also.

If the deer come from a herd with no CWD for three years and no new intakes, then CWD concerns are nil. CWD has an incubation period of 18-24 months usually.

I have no idea what they are testing those deer to be released for...TB maybe?? Really nothing else to test for.

Most of us are not important in the grand scheme of deer management in Alabama, nor do we try to portray that we are. There are however, many users on this site that are very knowledgeable about whitetails, several even have degrees that say such. So I think on this subject we are trying to portray sanity.

I never once saw EHD brought into this subject until the pro release side injected it into the debate. I think there are several things that could happen besides EHD/bluetongue. All the states up north do CWD testing on a regular basis and many many deer on farms have been found to have it. When that happens most states requires that all deer on that farm be exterminated. That is to prevent an accidental release or some PETA knucklehead opening the gate on purpose to release Bambi into the wild population to infect it. I will give you a tip on how to get bigger bucks. Spend all that money set aside for buying these pet deer and spend it on lime, fertilizer and seed and then don't kill any bucks till they are at least 3 1/2 years old. That will give you a much better result and actually be beneficial to the herd. I doubt any biologist will be against it either.

Once again i agree this is not the way to get bigger deer! Listen i hunt in a area that we have big deer. I plant beans,peas,sunflower and clovers for the deer. We fead our deer with pellets and provide lots of minerals. I understand that a deer will not reach his potential until 5.5. I also believe that pressure is the #1 factor that people dont kill mature(5 1/2) deer. I think adding a couple of breader bucks to a herd is like i think gobbler said putting 1 bull in a pasture with 5,000 otherbulls! Its a bad idea, i just dont think that this is a big of a deal as some make it. It to me sure isnt a reason to start attacking other hunters. I might be wrong, i hope im not. All this was about was me getting sick of people getting on here and trashing others. When they dont have all the facts. I dont have all of them either, but what is was saying was all these guys on here that are so passionate about this issue why dont you contact Hal and Walter and talk with them? They will be civil unlike some of you and they will answer your questions about what all have they done.

Fred I do have a question for you. As I understand it, Alabama has not had a case of CWD detected in it yet. CWD has an incubation period of 18-24 months and there is a test for it after the animal is dead. Alabama has had import of deer from other states outlawed for many years and the breeders have to send any deer that dies on their farm to the state for testing. That leads us to determine that none of the deer in licensed breeding facilities have been brought in from out of state and none of them have had a deer with cwd so far. Therefore their herds have been only Alabama born and raised for many years. Doesn't that mean that the deer breeding operations have less chance of getting cwd than the wild since a wild deer can walk across state lines?

Does this include deer in a high-fence hunting operation?

If Jimmy Triggerman kills a whopper at HighFence Heaven, does the owner have to send the deer or tissue or brain sample or anything to the state? Or is it only for the 'breeder' facilities?

Just curious.


And longbow76, if you think no one has imported any whitetails into the state since the 'ban' was put in by the DCNR, you're really naive. And I don't believe you are. You seem like an intelligent guy passionate about this and that's fine. But there's no way deer haven't been imported from others states and I'd bet money it still goes on today.

Then if CWD was brought in through that process, it would be brought in by outlaws that were doing something illegal. Not by the business owners who follow the law. Correct?

You didn't answer my question about high-fence outfits having to submit tissue samples.

As for your posit, please don't try to believe that all breeder and high-fence operators are virginal saints and squeaky clean. You know there are rogues among them and have been for years.

Every business has good people and bad people, and even some of the good ones aren't always good.

Clem, I don't keep up with high fences but I do know the only place they can legally get deer is from the state licensed breeders if they buy them legally.

Yes there are outlaws in most any business I would think. Which brings us to the question I asked you. If CWD was brought in it would have to be brought in by an illegally transported deer, and punishable by law, Correct?

Not necessarily. CWD already could be here. Already could have been brought in. Could be being spread unknowingly via this intra-state transfer of breeder deer but not manifested yet. No one knows.


To the high-fence question, maybe Mr. Ainsworth or someone else who knows will jump in because it's a legitimate question: If deer in a breeder facility that die must be sent (or tissue samples sent) to the state for testing, then is same standard required of deer killed in a high fence by Jimmy Triggerfinger paying for a select buck?

BhamFred says that CWD has an incubation period of 18-24 months. Bringing deer in from out of state has been banned for many years. None of the deer that died at the legal facilities has ever tested positive for CWD. Therefore, I don't see how they could be spreading it. If it is already here it is more likely it is in either an illegal facility or the wild herd and not in the legal breeder facilities. According to all the research I have been able to gather. You are preaching the same old song and dance scare tactic to promote your own agenda obviously. I am getting a kick out of this forum. Having called and researched and checked all this out, I am finding it both hilarious and disturbing at how many unfounded lies and attacks some people will direct at others they don't agree with. Reminds me a lot of Obama campaign.

Nothing anyone else says it's nearly as cowardice or dishonest as you coming on here acting like you aren't involved in the project. Passing yourself off as a casual observer while having a vested interest in the project says you know the project doesn't have the scientific backing to stand on it's own.

Bill do you know longbow76?

Look, not that I give a crap what you think, but you, longbow and justhangin came in here to defend this project and claim that folks on here were trashing the guys doing the project. I see nowhere where anyone was trashing Walter, Hale or Roy. If you think they were being trashed personally, show me where! As I have stated before, I like these guys and think a lot of them. However, many on here were expressing their opinion that the project was and is misguided and potentially dangerous to the deer herd in Marengo county. The Department of Conservation, their biologists, the QDMA, their biologists, the AWF, their biologist, Westervelt, their biologists.....etc...all agree with that opinion. I and others know enough to state that opinion and don't need to do a lot more research to have or state that opinion. As Bill noted, the responsibility is with the PROJECT to prove it will NOT be detrimental to the existing deer herd, not the other way around.




On this one you may be right, however, you seem to be the one here trashing folks, not the other way around. I may not be in the same category: Dave was one of the finest folks I knew and one of the few I shed a tear for at his funeral. I both turkey and squirrel hunted with him every year and we both worked under the same professor at Auburn. Claude is a biologist of the highest caliber and a personal friend whos integrity and moral compass cannot be questioned. I was on the search and hire committee that hired him and he has been an exceptional asset to the AWF.

I am FAR from the most knowledgeable person (or important as you say) on here regarding deer. You want passionate, educated deer Biologists, try Matt Brock, Steve Ditchkoff, Nighthunter, among others who regularly post on here. Want someone who does and lives "Deer management" for a living, ask BSK. As far as the rest of the folks on here, try listening (or reading) for a while (instead of telling everyone to shut up and that you know all of the most knowledgeable biologists) and you will be AMAZED at the amount of deer knowledge many of these guys have. As for me, I am a simple, old school habitat focused Biologist where habitat management is most important and deer, usually, are no more important than a turkey or a quail.

Again, you came on here with an attitude talking trash and telling folks on here to shut up because their opinion didn't jive with yours:


You came on here bragging about all the important biologists you know and hunt with, but can't recite their names or who they worked for. Longbow came on here laying out an article of Hales showing how knowledgeable he is, but shows nothing about his credentials. I don't care about his credentials, I know he is a sharp guy but don't toss out an article he wrote on deer season length to insinuate that he is knowledgeable about genetics and deer management. It's like y'all didn't realize that there would be Biologists, Foresters, Professors, and many others that are well-educated in "deer" on this forum! There are plenty on here with abundant deer knowledge. Why is it so important for y'all to be so passionately (and poorly) defending this project??



It is your right, however, to continue to try to inform the rest of us idiots about this project and try to convince us that the project is being done in a benevolent effort to "help others". Maybe, eventually, we will become more thankful.

Well said Gobbler, exactly how I saw it unfold.

I've been reading this thread, but haven't commented; time to share my great wisdom.

Just a few random comments:

1) I don't think its fair to call these bucks "genetically modified" or ""genetically altered." Selective breeding is what has resulted in 200" deer, and selective breeding has been done with livestock for centuries, and these deer are just livestock. RR corn has been genetically modified, by somehow splicing a glyphosate gene into the corn. I wish I knew how to do it so I could create a genetically modified chufa, but I fear this is a bit beyond my ability. Anyway, these are just deer that have been selectively bred to produce bigger antlers; they are still just deer.

2) The chances of the BBP significantly changing the genetics of the deer herd in Marengo Co are 0, and I think everyone involved already knows this. Look at what the al.com article says:

>>>He also said the project could return long-term economic impacts to Marengo County, where hunters are already an important source of revenue.

"A study by Black Belt Adventures showed that hunting is something like an $800 million dollar business in Alabama and a tremendous amount of that money is spent to hunt in the Black Belt," Smith said. "Obviously, we would like to get Marengo County its fair share of that."

Alabama Black Belt Adventures is a nonprofit organization committed to promoting outdoor recreation and tourism opportunities in the state's 23-county Black Belt region, including its acclaimed hunting and fishing opportunities, according to its Web site.<<<

This isn't about deer as much as it is about money for an economically depressed area. I think the project is already successful in accomplishing its real objective. I've heard politicians say that any publicity is good publicity, and they are already getting a lot of publicity. I don't think the desire to improve the economic condition of a poor county should be written off as "greed."

3) From what I've read, I don't think there was ever any intention of releasing 200" bucks the might be shot before the rut. Again, from the al.com article:

>>>While the bucks they plan to release will be primarily young deer, Smith said their family tree should ensure they will have trophy class potential locked in their genes.

"We're not going to be releasing any 200-inch bucks out there, but they will have the genetic potential to pass on those traits," Smith said. "I think this is the first program of its kind, and it's a revolutionary approach to enhancing genetics in a wild herd.<<<

So they are gonna release some yearling bucks, and there will be no reasonable way to tell them from the other deer in the area. Are the deer in Marengo Co really "native" deer? I know they aren't in most of the state. Our deer came from all over the place, so how can adding a few more really make that much difference either way, good or bad?

4) There have been hints in this thread that the originators of the BBP project hope to cause local hunters to exercise more "trigger control." I'd say its very likely that will happen, and if it does, its very likely that the county will quickly produce bigger bucks. And when it does, eureka! The project did work in spite of all the naysayers. It kinda reminds me of the state implementing a buck limit to try to reduce the buck harvest and using the annual hunter survey to measure the success. What kind of idiot would admit on a form sent in to the state that he had killed over the limit? The odds of the buck limit being a "success" were 100% because of the way they decided to measure the results. But the buck limit has changed hunter attitudes to some extent, so I guess that is a "success."

5) My final point - the only folks likely to benefit in any sort of hunting way will be the few folks that manage to shoot one of the selectively bred bucks that lives long enough to grow a big set of antlers, and that probably won't be many people. But every big buck killed in the county will soon be attributed to the BBP, and there will be a lot more folks wanting to hunt in the area. Lodges will be able to charge more, some new lodges will go into business, and lease prices will go up.

And there will be a little more money to spread around in Marengo Co. I don't see that as a bad thing. If this spreads some kind of disease, then it will have been a disaster, but the high fence operations are already out there and I can't see how letting a few of the deer out will be that much different from what we already have.

I don't think the sky will fall over this. I could be wrong; might oughta buy you a hardhat before they start turning them loose.

Good hunting to all!

you do realize those tests are on DEAD deer as there is currently no usable test for live deer...

Yes I do know that and was just saying that from what I have read if deer on a game farm test positive it is a death sentence for ALL the other deer on that farm.

poorcountrypreacher i agree 100%. This whole thread is about a few guys who want to talk big and start a whole lot about nothing. And like i said in my first post if your not from down here or at least hunt around here then go bother someone else.

This whole debate started with some of us saying that it was about money and that it wouldn't work anyway. If there is a .001% chance that it could spread ANY disease I am against it because thats a higher percentage than the chance of it improving anything in the herd. I am all for education and would love to see more trigger control as they put it. If thats what they are trying to do why not spend all that money on educating hunters instead? I still say some deer farmers are what is pushing it and they stand to make bigger bucks but not the kind with antlers.

A Wheat Ridge biotechnology company says it has developed the first test for chronic wasting disease in live animals.
The only valid tests for CWD, the elk and deer equivalent of mad cow disease, require the animal to be killed to collect a brain sample. That has resulted in the slaughter of more than 10,000 ranched elk and thousands of deer by U.S. and Canadian officials.

The new test finds CWD-caused changes in the blood-cell genes of animals known to be infected, said Dr. Tony Milici, chief executive officer of GeneThera.

Nobody went anywhere to bother you. YOU CAME HERE and started telling people to shutup on your first post is how I remember it.

No deer farmers are pushing this! Fact! Some realestate guys trying to sell more alnd in west alabvama might be a reason though
!

So the FACT that that they stand to make hundreds of thousands of dollars off of these deer when they sell them doesn't make you question that statement?

No, listen i know these guys you dont!

Yea figured you would have to weigh in..On the other side!!
1)Fair or not, THIS is from their website:


2)I agree, very little chance of ANY effect on the genetics of Marengo co.... so why say you plan on "restoring record breaking genetics" there? Truth in advertising - importantly TRUTH. However, you have to agree there IS a risk, so why not just do it in a high fence and not risk other landowners deer herd?

4) Again truth in advertising. Is this project supposed to improve Marengo co's genetics? Increase income to the county? Increase land sales at Tutt land? Which is it? Lets be honest.


I agree, the odds of anything changing in the deer herd is nil, maybe in hunter attitudes, but as I said, they already have an excellent platform to "educate hunters" on the benefits of quality HABITAT management, burning, thinning and such. In my opinion, this would have a HUGE positive impact on the deer herd in Marengo county, provide education for Marengo and surrounding countues, increase bookings at local lodges AND increase land sales at Tutt land. THis would be a REAL project that would be lauded by biologists and hunters alike. Heck I might even volunteer some time! Might even go over well here at aldeer!!

As usual you HAD to pick the opposing side



Nice job PCP, encourage him. Equivalent to coming uninvited to someones backyard BBQ complaining about the food and telling the homeowner to "go bother someone else" when he tells you to get lost.

Gobbler, I didn't think I was taking anyone's side; just telling the truth as I saw it. They can call the deer whatever they want, but they are not genetically modified. At least, I don't think they are. If they are the product of something more than selective breeding, then please post that and I will change my tune in a hurry. I think calling them Frankenbucks and all the kind of stuff is helping the project instead of hurting it. They've now got a 6 page post on aldeer, with folks greatly exaggerating the impact of what they are gonna do - that's just what they need.

About 8 or 9 years ago there was a post about a high fence operation in the state and the aldeer gang showed no mercy in their criticism. I found out later that the guy was swarmed with phone calls from people wanting to come hunt the enclosure. He didn't have enough deer and had to turn most of them away. For every aldeer poster blasting them, there must have been 10 others reading who would have been happy to shoot one of those big bucks.

Keep telling the world that the BBP involves genetically modified Frankenbucks and you are doing just what they want. Truth in advertising works both ways.

I didn't mention any poster by name, and didn't agree or disagree with anyone personally. I just tried to point out that the project is unlikely to have any effect on the deer herd either way, and the only way it will impact people is if they get lots of publicity - good or bad.

A good day to all!

just what is, and how do you "make" a "genetically modified" buck???

My dumb arse thought you raised huge bucks by having healthy deer over successive generations and by selectively breeding them..

I don't think this project will do what they say it will do but there are some really wild ass statements put on here......


gig em preacher....

My dumb arse thought you raised big bucks by maximizing habitat with things like, timber harvest,burning,quality year round food plots, etc. Then letting them reach the age of 4 years and beyond. Playing the cards you're delt. Didn't know one had to release super bucks from a pen. This is just "trophyism" gone wild.

Whatever the outcome, it will put $$ in someone's pocket... And THAT is the WHOLE idea behind it....

I was referring to enclosure deer.....you know, those "genetically altered" deer...

you are correct on free range deer, age/age/age/habitat/more age

When did i brag about anything Gobbler? I asked you a ?. You said you were a biologist and knew most of the bioogist in the State. I simply aksed if you knew these guys, that i thought they were great men. Thats not bragging,thats not talking sh!t thats asking a question!

When did i say this was a good idea? Or when did i say i supported this idea? Ive said form the start that i thought this was a waste of time and money!

You are the one who said that if you dont know the biologist i was refering to then he must be a noboby! I can tell you this i would take bets on how many meaningful research projects have been done on whitetails in the last few yrs in alaabama that he was not directly a part of!

And if you dont see where you guys have been BELITTERING everyone involed then you ned to get your head out of your a$$!

PCP makes a comment that doesnt fall in line 100% with your thinking and you comment about him!

Not everyone has to think like you! If i want to ask poeple to stop talking down to othesr or simply say shutup then thats ok! Its funny how i never used a name but the 2 main ones on here doing all the trashing are the ones who took offense to it!

You dont know everything nor do I. I would think that you know a lot more about the potential effects this could have on deer than i do. But that not what i posted about. I did say that i thought most ofthe peopel on here crying ove this have no idea what they are even crying about! You and maybe others might!

My point from the start was instead of getting on a computer and trashing guys why dont you act like a adult and call the guys at Tutt LC. That might actually help your caUSE.

Are you against feeding deer in trough? Or on the ground or at all? This would encourages deer to be in a confined area! This is how a lot of these diseases are tranfered! Im mean its a .001% chance that using mineral blocks and feeding deer can cause serious harm to a herd if a single deer using this was sick! This is true, so why are we not so passionate about guys feeding deer?

PCP:
Since your arguments are typically as well thought out and honest as any on here (and never cross personal lines), I enjoy debating various issues with you. Heck it's usually not any fun unless you have an opposing position You typically lend common sense as well as a sense of humor. You have never gotten personal on any issue and are still my favorite aldeer poster! My encouraging comment was in reference to you often siding with 9'r (he likes it when you do it, hates it when I do!!??)

Sometimes I will stretch a description to make a point. There is a technical term for it but I don't know it! Genetically modified, no, but their stated purpose is to modify the genetics of the Marengo co deer herd by releasing these breeder bucks. Call it whatever, but genetic modification is the unrealistic goal of the project. I just wish they were using all this advertising for a realistic goal that could have a positive impact for all of Alabama's deer herd - HABITAT. I guarantee we can grow Frankenbucks on well managed habitat in Alabama. I've got plenty of clients that are doing just that.

My analogy RE the backyard BBQ was referencing only one poster on here that has come in in and started telling everyone to "shut up" and to "go bother someone else". No offense intended

A good day to all



Trust me, you are clueless about how I think about PCP.

I have to ask now that genetics is being discussed, is there genetic manipulation going on in enclosures ? Seems strange that all of a sudden 550-600 inch buck can be achieved, that seems above the normal picking the best genetic deer to breed.

Is there frankenbucks being made or is selective breeding how they got to 600 inch bucks?

as far as the OP, those big bucks won't make one iota difference

Listen Gobbler i respect that you are expert in wildlife science and biology. I understand you know more thna i do when it come to the science behind wildlife. I started posting on this board becasue i took offense to everyone jumping on a guy they probably never meet. We live in a area of the world that has our counties ranked in the highest unemployment and povertyy in the country. These men are trying to help the area they live in and love. Most of the locals love the idea and welcome it. When i first read all the post on here and all the commnets i took offense to it. I realize that im doing the smae thing on here to others as what first pi$$ed me off and i apologize. The truth is nobody really knows the out come if this project. A good example is years ago a man gave 10 fallow deer to Mr. Bain Henderson in Millers Ferry and he put them into the pastures with his cows. After several years 10 became 50 and 50 became 100. One day he decieded to open the fence and let them go. After that for over 60yrs wilcox county had a healthy wild herd of fallow deer. Almost everyone in the county has a rack or a mount of one these deer. They thrived and were as wild or wilder than most whitetails. They have since been killed off. Out of town and out state hunter have came in and with no hunting season have in the last 20yrs wipped them out. But for the half century that we had wild fallow deer here it was a great thing. Most poeple today would frawn on the idea of this and have 100 reason why thing is a horrible idea and why it woldnt work,but it did happen and was a great thing. I liek you dotn want to see our deer being harmed. I personally hate the idea of peole raising deer as pets and then letting some rich dic# come murder him and then go have a cigar. Thats not hunting to me. But the fact is they ahve already released several deer and will released more. I as you hope this does not turn out to be a bad thing and kill several deer. I dotn see where one isolated case if its even there could harm to many deer. Not as much as cars do. I also believe that if this was about animal disease we then troughs and feeding deer would be a big topic too. But we can agree to disagree and thats fine. I do apologize for acting like a a$$ and for being a hypocrite in regards to the name calling. I get caught up sometimes if the fun of arguing.

No agenda. Just asking questions.



Can you post or provide some of the links or other sources of your research? Would love to read it. Thanks.

Civil is good, I can do civil (usually ). I never dissed the guys involved in the project, and noted several times their good intentions. I commend you for defending them although the problems most have is the PROJECT, not the guys involved. Good intentions often have unintended, negative consequences, which is why I would suggest this project be contained in a high fence so neighbors NOT be effected. The bottom line is that if I have a property there, and I DON"T want these deer on my place, this project negatively effects MY property rights and that does not seem to have been considered - kinda like why WOULDN'T"T any one want this??

Your analogy to fallow deer is a good one, but substitute PIGS or COYOTES for fallow deer - get my point? Both of these critters WERE released by well-intentioned landowners just trying to help out the sportsmen of Alabama to have another critter to hunt. Just deciding that since someone thinks it is good then lets subject everyone to it is the issue. I personal am GLAD the fallows are gone - again there are negative effects of exotic wildlife in free-range situations and if I don't want them, I shouldn't be subject to someone elses thought of a good idea. I wish the same had happened to pigs, kudzu, privet, bahaia, bermuda, fescue, starlings, European sparrows, chinaberry, popcorn tree, mimosa, autumn olive, wisteria, etc... all of which were released or established with good intentions but are having significant negative consequences.

It's happening, and I really don't care nor think it will make any impact, positive or negative. The beauty of this board and these folks on here is freedom to debate an issue like this - civilly (yea sometimes I don't follow the rules either ) But we usually all can argue opposite sides of an issue and go our separate ways still as friends. BTW, troughs and feeding ARE a big issue but that's another debate. My apologies as well for being an azz!

Have a good day!

KNowing a thing or two about "breeding" animals for certain genes (boy that just doesn't sound right) , I can tell you that by generation #2 any "selected" genetics released into a wild herd will be so watered down that the chances of it showing up isn't worth talking about.

Especially when a deer must reach a certain age in Alabama to show it.

If these guys released any diseases into Alabama's deer herd, there should be steep criminal charges filed.

Dang and I was just making the point that no one was trashing these guys personally

Oh Dear Lord. Now they are being touted as doing this as a community service.

polywaug, I'm going out on a limb and guess that you are 25 years old or less. I don't mean this as disrespectful, but you seem very naive. These men are doing this to deepen their pockets and not for ONE other reason.

nope im in my 30's and if you knew Walter he has plenty of $! I dont not deny that they hope it works and maybe one day in the future they can sell some more land. These guys donate lots of money to their lcoal little league, Marengo Academy,ect... These guys do alot more for their community than just buy a few deer. We all ahve a great love for our area and we all try and make it a better place. I thik Gobbler knows Walter and Hal ask him what he thinks about if they are doing this for greed or for what they percive as a good idea! This comment shows how much you know about our area! Not being a a$$ but thats true

>>>PCP makes a comment that doesnt fall in line 100% with your thinking and you comment about him! <<<

Polywaug, gobbler is my forester and is always looking for a chance to argue with me. Maybe its the fact that he's lost every single debate we've ever had on here that causes him to keep coming back for more.

I shoulda stayed out of this, but since I didn't, guess I better dig the hole a little deeper. The main thing in the thread that I objected to was the use of the term "genetically modified." Or maybe it was "genetically altered." I don't remember, and don't even remember who used it, and I sure ain't suffering thru reading this whole thread again. Anyway, Genetically Modified is a term that has been accepted everywhere to mean tampering with the genes of plants and animals. I used RR corn as an example in my first post. Here's a short article on it:

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/gmfood.shtml

I do NOT believe the deer to be used in the BBP have been genetically modified. IF they have, that I would sure be against it being legal to release them. I believe that the big antlers have been bred into them by regular old selective breeding; something that every livestock man does.

So I think the opponents of the BBP ought to use a different term and not imply that the deer have been genetically altered.

And my other main point was that there are lots of hunters out there that would be more than happy to pay a lot of money to shoot a Frankenbuck. The more that you call them that and talk about them, the more you actually help the program instead of hurting it.

Gobbler said:
>>>Sometimes I will stretch a description to make a point. There is a technical term for it but I don't know it!<<<

I think the word you are looking for is hyperbole. You are a Master of it. Glad you didn't take my arguments personally.

Everyone please carry on.

I waded in the topic way too late to say anything constructive. So, I will voluntter to help both sides. If someone will please let me know when and where they are opening the trailer door I will gladly shoot the disease ridden monster as he exits the door and promptly ride him around on the tailgate of my truck for three days and then post his mounted picture on Aldeer.

I also think that PCP's front gate will be an excellent release location.

Here is a link to some insight on the big buck project. I'm not saying I'm for or against it just posting a link on the topic.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJgE-LyMl4o

Can this be achieved thru selective breeding

An excellent post! Best one in the thread, and the best idea of a release location. Please get them to wait until rifle season to let him go; that will be an occasion to bring the 742 out of retirement. You will have to hope I miss 5 times and he is able to run a half mile before you can start blasting.

>>>Can this be achieved thru selective breeding<<<

I sure believe it was. I looked for some pics of grand champion hogs from the 20s and then recent fair champions - they don't even look like the same animal. They've gone from an animal for producing lard to one that produces lean meat. Here's an article with a few pics:

http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe50s/crops_11.html

It would be nice if some of the deer farmers could comment here. I have never before heard an accusation against them that they were into gene modification. If they are, well, I will take back everything I've said. I really don't think deer farmers would have the $ to pull that off. Isolating the gene for producing large antlers would be a big task for Monsanto to handle. I think.

I really don't have an opinion for or against this this. But if it was legal to do so and I wanted to buy 1 or 100 deer and turn them loose on my property it wouldn't be anyone else business.

You sure you didn't mean "was"? I guess you are waiting till you lose one Wish you needed a Biologist too

BTW Poly, PCP is also my English teacher and political consultant

Whatever it is, I, personally, think it is severely damaging our sport, along with the hunting video business. The "project" does little to help in that regard either. My $.02

Spot on, Gob. I find myself agreeing with you more and more,but......I still don't like pines.

Amen

Maybe we can tag team PCP and win one

But I like pines.

Auburn has a political science curriculum that often takes a back seat to it's other fields of study.

Here's an Auburn professor's definiton of a theory that seems to be having a lot to do with the problems that the Big Buck Project is currently facing:



link:
A Glossary of Political Economy Terms


Applied on a smaller scale to state politics, and then scaled down to hunting/fishing politics, the theory is obviously in play here at home in Alabama.

If it doesn't come from Auburn, the AWF, ALFA, and now the QDMA, then it won't pass the smell test in Alabama.

Elitist bureacrats will spend your liberty like they spend federal grant money and make you think you like it if you aren't vigilant.

Dang, figured you might weigh in but was wrong on sides again Maybe you're like PCP and just wait to get on opposite sides from me. I sure figured this argument would be the same as yours... Go figure



Aren't the elitists the $$ guys releasing these deer and forcing landowners who DON"T want them to have them on their property? They are not in a high fence and can wander anywhere they want.

Gobbler - Just realized you said you are against bahaia, bermuda, and fescue. I presume you are against cows too?

I still don't think I've take a "side" on the BBP. I guess you require 100% agreement or the poster is on the "other side."

As a Biologist, you pretty much have to be against exotic, invasive, warm season grasses, if you realize the damage they do to wildlife habitat and wildlife foods. We've got plenty of native warm season grasses that are suited to our suite of wildlife species and habitats. These can also effectively be used to graze cows on if done right and still retain wildlife value. Personally, the only good place for a cow is on a grill, however, I could not be more for private property rights and the ability to manage ones own land however one sees fit as long as it does not impact others in their ability to enjoy theirs.

RE, sides, I was using that fancy term again - hyperbole ... for effect

>>>We've got plenty of native warm season grasses that are suited to our suite of wildlife species and habitats. These can also effectively be used to graze cows on if done right and still retain wildlife value.<<<

I would have thought the loss of the various kinds of bermuda, pensacola bahia, and tall fescue would mean the end of the cattle business in AL. I'm not doubting you, but what could replace these for grazing and hay?

I agree with you on common bermuda and fescue being a plague for wildlife. I've about rid the place of fescue, and don't know how it ever got there, and have made progress on the bermuda. But I've always kinda liked the bahaia; sure does hold the roads together well. And produces lots of grasshoppers for the young turkeys.

You are gonna need a lot more Mexicans if you intend to wipe these out.

Guess the hijack of this thread is now complete.

This is being hotly debated on a forum on the QDMA web site.

Link?

www.qdma.com/forums In general forum,thread title, someones catching on...

Looks like qdma's campaign to stop them is really working.........seems they are releasing deer all over the place.

That top picture where the buck just stands outside of the trailer next to the guy is pretty cool.

that bottom pic is a pretty good 1.5 year old buck...

Pshaw, Fred. That's a mature whopper with superior genes. It's just the camera angle.

From the BBD website:

"Tutt Land Company conducted a 5 year controlled research project in Marengo County that yielded amazing results in both herd health and quality antler growth by introducing new trophy genetics to the native herd"

Can someone please explain to me how introducing a deer into an ecosystem that already has one of the highest deer densities in the state improves herd health just because it has larger antlers?

Where is their data on this 5 year study? How did they achieve their conclusions? I need to see scientific data and analysis. This is just rhetoric without it.

When are people going to realize that herd health doesn't always mean B&C deer.

Never. You are fighting a losing battle and wasting your breath if you are trying to convince the bulk of deer hunters not to worry about bagging one with large antlers. That is what drives the industry and why it is now as big as it has grown. Heck, it is the only reason groups like QDMA have so many members. Like it or not, that is what deer hunting is about for probably 90% or more of the people who carry a weapon into the woods looking to kill a deer these days. I use the phrase "carrying a weapon to kill" because I do not believe what most people do these days is considered hunting. Let's just call it what it is. Most people are just killing. And I can only speak for the area I live in, but around here if they didn't grow antlers most of the people would go ahead and wipe them out to get them off their property, especially all the farmers and cattlemen.

That's what they're tuning loose! If those bucks been eating super deer chow and all the other goodies deer get in a petting zoo, not impressive! How old is the deer in the top pic ?
Those bucks off spings not going to be anything special, eating pinecones and that other LA wild deer food.

Well I say it is there money there land and good luck. If I had a barrel full of money and a few thousand acres I would let them turn loose a hundred of them.

Clem I am pretty sure your aviator cause me to have a seizure.

you have 1.5 year old bucks like the bottom pic on your land now????

That first buck is a big mature nice creature!

I'm with BhamFred....there aren't too many places in the country with 1.5 year old bucks like that.

Wonder what the odds are he has antlers as big as that next year when he has a full year to forage on native browse with the rest of the multitude in Marengo co? Not arguing, just wondering

I'm with Mike... seizures - I would worry about a lawsuit!

Stare at it long enough and you'll forget about those whopper 1.5-year old breeders being turned loose.

It's supposed to have super genes and been eating out of a Fn bucket people!

You know damn well I don't.
Aged by a State biologist 3.5 yr, mid 150s gross. What would he have looked like at 1.5 eating out of a bucket? Prolly not as big as the 1.5 in the pic, he's just got regular ol' hillbilly genes.

ya'll did read my opening on this..it ain't going to work.

but lets be real...those landowners are probably planting food, and feeding em too. His antlers will be bigger than this year. And you know it.

2dogs, that is a real nice buck in yer pic, any native deer that makes 140+ is a dandy. And so is the deer yer bashing in the pic, and even you know deer don't eat pinecones..you been hanging with that pine tree guy too much if you believe they do.

I was going to reply to Clem but I stared at his pic too long and forgot what I was going to say....

Was it he Jordan Buck that was aged at 3.5 ?, there was a question about one of the largest typicals being 3.5 or 4.5

no kidding, I had to go take a goodies powder, anyone been drinking seen that thing, bet they got sick

The one in the top pic is a 2 year old they turned loose. Here is a 3 year old they released.

Is Marengo Co. in the Black Belt?

yes, Marengo is in the Black Belt.....

Are they closing the season for a few years where they turned the deer loose? Do they have a high protein deer feed system in place? How big is the area they are releasing the deer in?

No. Yes. 600,000+ acres.

I have been casually dropping by every couple of weeks with the big buck project guys to try and get info from them on how the project is going. I sure have seen that deer trailer down there a lot. Word at the coffee shop is that 2 more counties have called them and are getting them to start up similar programs in their counties. When I asked one of the guys with Big Buck Project about that I just got a sly looking grin and a "no comment".

Gonna take a lot of feed and buckets to feed deer on 600K acres!

Thursday, November 01, 2012

ALABAMA BIG BUCK PROJECT, A CWD TSE PRION ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN

http://chronic-wasting-disease.blogspot.com/2012/11/alabama-big-buck-project-cwd-tse-prion.html




kind regards,
terry

Welcome to ALdeer and good luck.

Where's the bling those bucks supposed to be wearing?????? Hmmmm, CWD turns up, oh no, those aren't deer released during the "big buck project".

and just who is this guy besides a "blogger" with an agenda.....

he makes a lot of unproven statements

maybe those involved have a LOT of money????

Yesterday I called the guys at Tutt Land office and asked them about one of the theories I have been reading on here. I asked them if the antlers would get smaller after the deer were released and no longer getting the diet that they do at the breeder facility. This morning they sent me pictures of a 2 year old breeder they released on a property and did not add any supplemental feeding other than what is on the normal property around here. They said they planted green fields, did not add anything in the summer, and only put feed in the troughs when it was time to put the game cameras out. This property is about 75% mature pine plantation. They sent me pictures of him first released as a 2 yr, then they sent me pictures of him at 3, 4, and 5. I will ask them today if I can post them on the internet if anyone wants to see them. Do you?

I do! Put them up! Be especially interesting if they also have pics of any of his offspring.

Easy answer...hellll no the antlers won't be smaller. More horsechitt.

I've seen native Alabama deer and northern genetic deer raised side by side on the same feed and the northern deer are always much bigger, body and antlers. And they don't get smaller with age.

I'd like to see the pics also....

They said it wasn't a problem so I will post them here tomorrow. I am just waiting on them to send me one that seems to be his offspring. They said they can't be 100% positive because you can't do a dna test on a wild deer till he is harvested in 4 or 5 more years but they think he is the breeder's offspring. It was the offspring of a doe (native) that was always with the breeder and they even saw him breed her in the field at least once and he has similar characteristics on his hide and antlers. Anyway, I will post sometime this weekend whenever they send me the rest of the pics.

Looking forward to seeing these supposed offspring.

Maybe I missed it, but are these deer supposed to have northern "genetics". Read all about the "200" genetics" but certainly may have missed the "northern" part. However, we have all seen the photos of deer that were fed high protein for years then fed "normal" protein for a year and seen the corresponding drop in antler size.



Really

see if you can figure it out gobbler....yer a smart feller

I remember an article about twin bucks, one was placed in a great farmland habitat the other in a woodland only habitat, then they switched them a few years. Both changed antler characteristics per habitat


I do believe Northern deer start out with better antler characteristics and probably maintain that thru their life

I'm guessing that "native" doe was in a pen with said breeder buck. field = pen

Guy on the QDMA forum ran some numbers using 35 deer per square mile in Marengo Co. (state says 45), but he went consevative. Then 600K acres / 640 acres = sq miles. He came up that they would have to release 329 deer to equal 1% of the present population. That 1% better have some strong genes to effect the other 99%.

Damn, another group of 1 percenters against the rest of the world?

So this is going to turn into Occupy Marengo?

Clem, you so crazy!

I though about this as well. Really not the biggest issue, but still one that I doubt was considered...especially when it comes to a buck making B&C. Kind of potentially sucks IMO for Marengo Co. landowners that are opposed to this project. What if they do kill a booner? Can you imagine all the speculation and doubt?

dang...99% you say...how did you come up with that stat?

not trying to pick on you, but are they releasing a couple or a bunch of breeder bucks? I've read another Marengo Co. guy saying it was a lot of bucks... I think the big deal to a lot of us is the underlying issues this could create, including perception from non hunters. The more the hunting industry leans towards canned hunts and genetically altering the higher the chances that by the time my son has a kid hunting will be banned. Also this Roy guy and a few others are pushing their personal motives on everyone in the Co. and surrounding counties. So even "If" it doesn't create potential health concerns there are other legit concerns that a lot of outdoorsman have about this project and the can of worms this just opened or future projects.

they ain't genetically "altered", just genetically different. I wish ya'll would quit saying that......

bout like saying they feed those deer steroids to make em big.....

Would like to see those pics

how are genetics not altered when you take a 200" buck and a doe that has dropped several 200" bucks and put them together and then release their offspring in a pen in an attempt to change genetics? Maybe I'm using the wrong word but isn't the idea to change (alter) genetics?

Sounds like altering to me and Mr. Webster. per Mr. Webster: Alter, to make some change in,to vary.

That's selective breeding of animals with superior genes.

To alter a gene would require removing or changing part of its DNA.

Question - isn't "selective breeding" how they "altered" roundup ready soybeans, or did they actually do gene splices?

Maybe so.

I see altered (in regard to genes) and selective breeding as two different things, though. Might be why I hated Mendel and his pea plants.


http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_1.htm

RR Soybeans have been "genetically altered/modified".

"Selective breeding" has been done since the beginning of time. Dogs are great examples.

Many clubs have unintentionally supported inferior buck breeding by supporting a "8 pts or better" mentality. The older 4-5 yr old six or seven point walks into view along with a perfect 2 yr old basket rack eight point.... you know which one gets shot. It's called high-grading.

They inserted the RR gene.

there has been no change to the genetics, only the expression of the genetics that are present. Do some research...

I thought I straightened everyone out on the difference between genetic modification and selective breeding weeks ago? Right in this thread!

Do you guys not believe it when an authority speaks?

BhamFred: "There has been no change to the genetics, only the expression of the genetics that are present. Do some research..."


I second this.

I believe ya preacher, others? not so much!!!!

I stand corrected...selective breeding it is...selective breeding and wildlife shouldn't be used in the same sentence...

preacher has another convert....

>>>preacher has another convert.... <<<

Its so much easier when you have the truth on your side.

Uh Oh, looks like it's illegal now!

http://www.outdooralabama.com/news/release.cfm?ID=1104

Well now......

“Therefore, we are obligated to use caution before allowing such activity to occur.".


Well its a little late for the BEFORE part! Hopefully we can get it prohibited permanently and the animals that have already been released are disease free. Something is troubling me a little as to why it is just now being prohibited. Why not immediately when we first learned of it? Money talking?

Well, the project had all their propagandist out there promoting it. Looks like they finally got the proper attention.

I thought they had already released some bucks, those pics weren't real.

How many Does does a mature buck actually breed? I know they limit them in pens cause of high mortality rates if they breed too many.

I have a question. A deer bread in a 5 acre breeding pen, along with the other limited amount of deer bred into an enclosure is more prone to disease than a deer eating corn out of a feeder for an extended period of time? We're the deer artificially inseminated and releasedrather being pinned in an enclosure to ensure breeding? It is my understanding that deer breeders and captive deer in an enclosure have to adhere to strict guidelines from the state and regulated by an appointed biologist? Just asking.....

better late than never...

The government is probably jealous because they didn't do
it when they had a chance during the restocking efforts long
ago. Now they have Delayed Guilt Complex (DGC) and it is
expressing itself now with the ban order.

I have a new question.
I have no problem with releasing deer, but I also have no problem with the state deciding they believe it shouldn't be done and making it illegal.
However, I do have a problem with them only banning it for people that do not have a high fence. Why not make it illegal for everyone? Aren't they cherrypicking? Are the deer in the free range more important than the deer in the fence (which are also regulated by the state). I asked a state biologist the other day if a fence stopped disease from spreading. His answer was that as far as he could decide there is just as much chance of disease spreading from a deer in a fence into the free range as it is if one was released into the free range.
In other words, the fence does not stop disease. He did add that if you were to double fence a property with a long distance between the fences that it may lower the risk, but Alabama does not require that. Also, the state does not define what an "enclosure" is. I can put a 4' chainlink fence up that is only 20'x20' and turn as many breeder deer loose as I want to in it. It is not illegal for them to jump the fence and run away.

My question is......Why the ban on free range but not fence?

Stirring the pot are we?

Maybe a little. But isn't it a legitimate question that deserves an answer from the state?
If the conservation department is concerned with the health of the wildlife and are making decisions that are in line with that and not politically motivated, shouldn't they protect all the wildlife they regulate in the same manner? Just my thoughts.....