Aldeer.com

Dry does: too many does spinoff

Posted By: 3FFarms

Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/04/22 07:07 PM

Didn’t want to highjack that thread, but have a question. As a club, I believe we’ve killed 8 or 10 and they have all been dry. Is this the good Lord’s way of regulating numbers on his own? Fawn sightings are down. Still plenty of deer, probably above average for the area. Year round food. Good diversity of timber. Plots show excessive browse.

3 of us hunted yesterday afternoon in pretty poor weather and we saw a total of 2 deer. Combo of being in the woods and on greenfields.

A cam on another field that had no one sitting on it had at least 11 deer in one pic.

If you take the three hunter sightings, it would seem we were devoid of deer. If you take the cam intel, seems we’re overrun.

What intel does the fact that all harvested does being dry give us?
Posted By: Ar1220

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/04/22 07:50 PM

Done weaned there fawns
Didn't breed or get bred
To old to breed.
I don't know but here is what i do know I'm seeing more yearlings and fawns this year than I have in a long time. I also am seeing some what I feel like are old does without any young. I killed one during muzzleloader she was dry as a bone. Got one more running around with head long as a truck hood that don't have young with her and she's gone get it before to much longer
Posted By: jwalker77

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/04/22 07:53 PM

Its been a rough year here. Dryer than normal. Deer were struggling to find food toward end of summer. They were eating things ive never seen them eat before. Its much better now though.
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/04/22 09:31 PM

More than likely they have weaned them off .
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/04/22 09:35 PM

Coyotes probably ate them
Posted By: Turkey_neck

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/04/22 10:12 PM

I try to shoot big lone does I don’t want to shoot my good momma’s.
Posted By: OlTimer

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/04/22 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
Coyotes probably ate them



My thoughts as well.
Posted By: marshmud991

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/04/22 10:40 PM

We’ve killed 4 does so far. 3 of the 4 were lone does and the 4th one had a good size yearling with here. They ranged from 83-105lbs. All 4 were wet. We are also seeing lots of does with fawns that look like it’s not long they lost their spots. Quite a few does seem and on camera with twin fawns. Kinda makes in hard to some doe killing. I’m not complaining. I like to see all those deer. However the way this trip is going, you wouldn’t think there’s a deer in Alabama.
Posted By: 3FFarms

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by OlTimer
Originally Posted by CNC
Coyotes probably ate them



My thoughts as well.


Could be, we have a healthy population and are doing all we can to stay ahead of them.

Just thought it odd that 100% of the does harvested have been dry.
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 01:27 AM

Without an age on those does the presence or absence of milk don’t mean much. They could be 1.5 year olds and wouldn’t have milk anyway.

Even if they’re in the process of weaning or have weaned the mammary glands will still have a milky substance in them. Always cut into the sack and check rather than pulling on the nipple.

Two things. I suspect some of both. Could be a coyote predation issue combined with low reproductive success from skewed sex ratios.

Old barren does are like unicorns. It’s a myth. Does produce fawns until they die.
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 01:53 AM

Matt, please explain to me how a skewed ratio can lead to a lower recruitment rate. Don’t get me wrong, I agree that it does. I just can’t explain it to our club members very well. We are split… half of us want to kill more does, the other half don’t want to kill any. For what it’s worth I think we are about a 3/1 ratio based on trail cam pics. Our rut seems to be low intensity and drawn out. We have made the decision to shoot 4+ year old bucks and older. And that is going pretty well. This is our second year doing it.
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 02:21 AM

Ok. Here’s how a lot of hunters think, mostly those who came through the deer restocking/herd repopulation era: Does are to be highly protected because they make babies. Gotta protect them all. More does equals more deer. Most of these are in favor of shooting bucks, any buck, over a doe. That don’t sound too bad except…….

The breeding habits of white-tailed deer do not work like that. In a given area, most does are going to enter their estrous cycle within a 10-14 day window of each other. Let’s say you have a population of 100 deer over a given area. If your ratio is 3:1 that’s 75 does to 25 bucks. A buck will tend or stay with a hot doe for 1-3 days and breed her multiple times. So during the first few days of estrous let’s say those 25 bucks are able to breed 20-30 of those does. Some of the bucks are not going to breed. Some will breed more than one doe. That leaves 40+ does unbred. The second half of that first cycle let’s say the majority do get bred. Let’s just use 60 total for the first 10 days. Also in that time frame 30% of your bucks have been taken out of the population from hunting mortality and rut mortality. So now you have 15 does left that did not get bred the first cycle. You have 17 bucks remaining who are already run down from chasing/breeding for two weeks. Those does come into estrous again 28 days later and 17 bucks are competing for 15 does and will absolutely destroy their physical fitness in order to get it done. They should be recovering from rut and yet now they are doing it all over again with more competition than the first rut. If your population is skewed any more than 3:1 you begin to see a pretty good percentage of does not getting bred at all. If they’re not getting bred, that is not contributing to recruitment. It is hindering it. In areas with high coyote populations who’ve learned to prey on fawns, longer breeding seasons increase the amount of time coyotes have to hone in that predatory behavior, leading to more fawns killed by coyotes. Not less. Having populations with high numbers of does and few bucks is more harmful to reproductive success than helpful. Habitat also contributes to success or failure. High quality habitat with good buck:doe ratios and predator control can have phenomenal reproductive success and healthy deer vs the alternative of poor habitat, high deer populations and low reproduction from the stresses they face in nutrition, depredation and competition for resources.
Posted By: CKyleC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Ok. Here’s how a lot of hunters think, mostly those who came through the deer restocking/herd repopulation era: Does are to be highly protected because they make babies. Gotta protect them all. More does equals more deer. Most of these are in favor of shooting bucks, any buck, over a doe. That don’t sound too bad except…….

The breeding habits of white-tailed deer do not work like that. In a given area, most does are going to enter their estrous cycle within a 10-14 day window of each other. Let’s say you have a population of 100 deer over a given area. If your ratio is 3:1 that’s 75 does to 25 bucks. A buck will tend or stay with a hot doe for 1-3 days and breed her multiple times. So during the first few days of estrous let’s say those 25 bucks are able to breed 20-30 of those does. Some of the bucks are not going to breed. Some will breed more than one doe. That leaves 40+ does unbred. The second half of that first cycle let’s say the majority do get bred. Let’s just use 60 total for the first 10 days. Also in that time frame 30% of your bucks have been taken out of the population from hunting mortality and rut mortality. So now you have 15 does left that did not get bred the first cycle. You have 17 bucks remaining who are already run down from chasing/breeding for two weeks. Those does come into estrous again 28 days later and 17 bucks are competing for 15 does and will absolutely destroy their physical fitness in order to get it done. They should be recovering from rut and yet now they are doing it all over again with more competition than the first rut. If your population is skewed any more than 3:1 you begin to see a pretty good percentage of does not getting bred at all. If they’re not getting bred, that is not contributing to recruitment. It is hindering it. In areas with high coyote populations who’ve learned to prey on fawns, longer breeding seasons increase the amount of time coyotes have to hone in that predatory behavior, leading to more fawns killed by coyotes. Not less. Having populations with high numbers of does and few bucks is more harmful to reproductive success than helpful. Habitat also contributes to success or failure. High quality habitat with good buck:doe ratios and predator control can have phenomenal reproductive success and healthy deer vs the alternative of poor habitat, high deer populations and low reproduction from the stresses they face in nutrition, depredation and competition for resources.


I need to compile your posts in to a pdf so I can reference them later and group them according to specific subject.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 02:55 AM

This is what I’m talking about with managing like you’re in a box ^^^^^…..Just because you have 100 does on your property……why would you assume there are only 25 bucks in a 3-5 mile radius of you to breed them???.......Why would you also assume that every other property around you also had 100 does or the same female density to be bred??.......What if you’re the only parcel holding 100 does and all the others only have 10 because they shot theirs?? It all unfolds on a landscape scale and not in a box
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 03:01 AM

You completely missed my point CNC. This is exactly what is happening on a landscape scale. I simply used those numbers as an example. No assumptions have been made at all. For examples sake I gave a known population over an unknown area to make a point.

CNC the bottom line is this. Poor management leads to poor results. Stock piling does is never a good herd management strategy. Period.
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Ok. Here’s how a lot of hunters think, mostly those who came through the deer restocking/herd repopulation era: Does are to be highly protected because they make babies. Gotta protect them all. More does equals more deer. Most of these are in favor of shooting bucks, any buck, over a doe. That don’t sound too bad except…….

The breeding habits of white-tailed deer do not work like that. In a given area, most does are going to enter their estrous cycle within a 10-14 day window of each other. Let’s say you have a population of 100 deer over a given area. If your ratio is 3:1 that’s 75 does to 25 bucks. A buck will tend or stay with a hot doe for 1-3 days and breed her multiple times. So during the first few days of estrous let’s say those 25 bucks are able to breed 20-30 of those does. Some of the bucks are not going to breed. Some will breed more than one doe. That leaves 40+ does unbred. The second half of that first cycle let’s say the majority do get bred. Let’s just use 60 total for the first 10 days. Also in that time frame 30% of your bucks have been taken out of the population from hunting mortality and rut mortality. So now you have 15 does left that did not get bred the first cycle. You have 17 bucks remaining who are already run down from chasing/breeding for two weeks. Those does come into estrous again 28 days later and 17 bucks are competing for 15 does and will absolutely destroy their physical fitness in order to get it done. They should be recovering from rut and yet now they are doing it all over again with more competition than the first rut. If your population is skewed any more than 3:1 you begin to see a pretty good percentage of does not getting bred at all. If they’re not getting bred, that is not contributing to recruitment. It is hindering it. In areas with high coyote populations who’ve learned to prey on fawns, longer breeding seasons increase the amount of time coyotes have to hone in that predatory behavior, leading to more fawns killed by coyotes. Not less. Having populations with high numbers of does and few bucks is more harmful to reproductive success than helpful. Habitat also contributes to success or failure. High quality habitat with good buck:doe ratios and predator control can have phenomenal reproductive success and healthy deer vs the alternative of poor habitat, high deer populations and low reproduction from the stresses they face in nutrition, depredation and competition for resources.


Boom. That’s it. That’s what I’ve been trying to explain but can’t seem to get my point across. Thanks buddy
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 03:38 AM

Our doe populations across the state are fragmented and divided into lots of subsets of smaller individual populations of females separated by the major road way systems and major habitat breaks. The total number of does existing within each one of these subset population areas will be limited by the amount of suitable habitat…..The number of bucks that can exist in comparison though is not limited to that space.

We’ll use Matt’s 100 doe example for one of these subset areas…….Those 100 does could produce 50 bucks this year……50 bucks next year……..50 the year after that……..50 more the following year and so on……..Over a 5 year time period that “100 doe population” could produce 150-250 bucks that disperse and populate the fringe areas around where these 100 does exist……

The doe population on the other hand is maxed out at 100 because that is as many as social conflict will allow to exist ……Does will not stockpile past a certain threshold in most normal situations……They will try and expand their range on the fringes and the excess will end up as road mortality….which is ultimately why we have been taught to shoot females…..If were to just let it go, road mortality would be what eventually controlled these doe population and held them to a certain maxed out constant of 100 within the subset area…..
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 03:41 AM

What really matters is how many of those bucks you kill.......If you have a skewed buck to doe ratio you have a buck problem.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 04:12 AM

Take Montgomery Co as an actual real world example……..Look at the map and the habitat layout…….Bucks can populate and live in ALL kinds of places within the city limits and around marginal cow pasture type habitat….behind subdivisions, etc…….Large populations of doe groups cannot exist in all of these same areas though……The main populations of doe groups for the county is limited by certain habitat types ……They just cant expand beyond prime fawning habitat due to coyotes.....Reproductive success goes to nil.....Only certain areas within the county have the potential habitat to hold high concentrations of does but most ALL areas of the county has the potential to house stray bucks. When the rut kicks off in Montgomery Co…….bucks leave of all of these fringe areas and converge on the areas where the main doe populations exist. What would happen to the buck numbers existing in all these hidey holes around the county if the guys with the main doe populations decided to start shooting a bunch of their does??......The answer is that there would be a lot less dispersing bucks to fill them. You just reduce the population
Posted By: redgineer

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 05:49 AM

What do yall think about hunt clubs full of itchy trigger fingers with antler restrictions, and relentless doe slaughter? I saw an 8:1 doe:buck ratio at a club one year. I'm not sure how it effects the population long term, but I know those were the most pressured deer I've ever hunted, including public land.
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by redgineer
What do yall think about hunt clubs full of itchy trigger fingers with antler restrictions, and relentless doe slaughter? I saw an 8:1 doe:buck ratio at a club one year. I'm not sure how it effects the population long term, but I know those were the most pressured deer I've ever hunted, including public land.


None of my business. I wouldn't pay to join the club either
Posted By: Forrestgump1

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 08:39 AM

Why is it that it’s always more does than bucks. I’m pretty sure it’s the way god designed it. And I think hunter satisfaction is far more important than ratio. Start going and stop seeing and watch the whole conversation switch. I’d rather go and see a field full of does than one deer in 6 sits. I like killing a big buck as much as the next guy but you can’t eat the horns.
Posted By: FurFlyin

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
Coyotes probably ate them


Yes.
Posted By: Goatkiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 03:15 PM

Shoot does.... have less deer and less bucks. Shooting your deer so they get bred on time is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard of.

Really simple as that.

Seriously. You can make a 2 pager explaining how or why you think I am wrong.... but 100% of the time I can statistically prove the more deer you shoot the less deer you will have.

Period. 100% of the time. That cannot be argued and has nothing to do with "The Science"..... (say that like Dr. Fauci in your head when you read it)

If you have a Buck/Doe ratio problem you have a trigger finger issue. Alabama is trying to manage based on a theory instead of common sense. The vast majority of hunters are NOT hunting on a piece of land anywhere remotely close to big enough for this type of management philosophy that is EXACTLY why it doesn't work.

It doesn't work. We've been doing this for decades and still don't have the age structure anywhere close to where it needs to be in this State.

Next person that says they have "too many deer" please post up some pictures of starving deer with their ribs showing so that we can all get on the same page about what that even means. Breeding late? Tell your neighbors to stop shooting all the spikes they see.

Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Goatkiller
Seriously. You can make a 2 pager explaining how or why you think I am wrong.... but 100% of the time I can statistically prove the more deer you shoot the less deer you will have.

Period. 100% of the time. That cannot be argued and has nothing to do with "The Science"..... (say that like Dr. Fauci in your head when you read it)



Not completely true…. For example, in my scenario where we don’t shoot any does, road mortality eventually curtails the expanding doe populations…….You could actually have hunters kill the excess and prevent “expansion” from taking place……which would in turn simply shift the road mortality to hunter mortality…..the number of deer left would ultimately be the same……This is compensatory mortality. The problem we have in many areas is that we have shot WAY more than just what would have been killed on the road…..We have gone from simply limiting expansion to creating deflation if you want to call it that. Many areas could hold a lot more does than they currently have.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 04:06 PM

The “sweet spot” would be if we allowed all of the available doe habitat to fill up with whatever “X” it will support and then only shoot the amount that suppresses the road mortality from the spill over of burgeoning or expanding herds. This is what is trying to be accomplished through regs but we kinda tend to swing the pendulum back and forth past the desired goal. We’re riding it out right now in hopes that the pendulum eventually settles out closer to that sweet spot…..Its kinda hard to though when you have biologists still naïvely towing the same old company line.
Posted By: Goatkiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 04:08 PM

CNC you and I are pretty much in agreement. You can factor in deer getting hit by cars on the highway and deer dying of disease or other natural causes... we lump that into a statistical analysis.

But what is completely true is that you have no control over that. You have control over your trigger and your tigger only. The plan with your rifle is to manage the deer herd for Mother Nature because she can't do it correctly? Wrong. When you shoot a deer you have added yet another external influence on their mortality rate just like an automobile on the road. However, you can only control what you have control over. And since you can't control how many will jump in front of a vehicle you have to factor that in along with what you intend to do with your rifle.

Simply - if you have a bunch of deer getting hit by cars near your property then you will have to adjust your shooting habits accordingly. A dead deer is a dead deer doesn't matter how it happened. Insurance claim Data would be the easy source for this information but that has ZERO to do with your little piece of heaven even if you could get that data by County. Which is a good example of how you can't manage on the "whole". Also... Self management isn't going to happen just like all the millions of people who broke the speed limit going to work this morning.

What Alabama's DCNR believes, still after 20+ years... is simply that you can manage on the whole AND that you also have control over everything including what you neighbor is killing 10 yards outside your property line (self management). It's completely stupid and typical of an academic theory. This is where this whole BS theory of shoot more deer have more deer falls completely apart. 90% maybe closer to 100% don't have enough property to do this. So you put in the effort and work but your neighbor doesn't... you fail. This is the biggest problem IMO and when you want to discuss people not hunting or enjoying their efforts nobody talks about these hunters.... we only discuss those that want to indiscriminately blast something and what their "rights" are and how you can't eat horns or we are going to ruin their enjoyment. Well, what about the people that want to kill something other than a 2 yo. 6 pointer? What about them? Alabama has made it nearly impossible for these people or at least put virtually nothing in their favor.

But coming back to Statistics... 100% of the time.... if you blast a deer. You will have less deer. 100% of the time.

I'm waiting on pictures of starving deer. If anyone has too many "deer" I'd sure love to see what all those starving deer looks like we need to get the State over there quick to "study" this because it doesn't exist anywhere. It's like Democrats saying there is a White Supremist behind every piece of shrubbery. Where?

Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Goatkiller
CNC you and I are pretty much in agreement.

I'm waiting on pictures of starving deer. If anyone has too many "deer" I'd sure love to see what all those starving deer looks like we need to get the State over there quick to "study" this because it doesn't exist anywhere. It's like Democrats saying there is a White Supremist behind every piece of shrubbery. Where?




thumbup popcorn
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 08:45 PM

All I know is the biologist for the state came out and looked at my lease and recommended we kill 15 doe's the first year, and get them aged. She also said that you are missing 70% of your deer if you aren't in the woods versus a green field. If I look at game check numbers for Shelby Co for last deer season, more bucks were killed than doe's. Dr. Grant Woods told me the best I could hope for on twin fawns was 48/52% one way or another.

All I know for sure was when I was in college, and we had doe season, I could sit on a green field and see deer every day. If we needed meat, we would shoot a spike, or wait until doe season, or use archery. When you are in a club, and they shoot every doe that walks out on a green field, guess what happens? They stop. A doe is no different than a buck if you pressure it, it will be nocturnal too.

I personally think the buck limit needs to be higher. And the doe a day limit needs to be changed to something much lower, like 5 per season.

Here is simple math. Shelby Co has a deer density of 30 to 60 deer per square mile. I am on the lower end of that, I feel certain. I have 1050 acres, which means I have around 50 to 100 deer on the property basically. If I was 1 to 1, which I am not, but assuming I was, that means I have 25 to 50 doe's. If I have 25, and I kill 15, that leaves 10 to breed, and at best, I have 10 doe fawns as a result. If none die from Yotes, then going into the next season I have 20 doe's. There is a sustainable number you have to have to kill a certain number of doe's and maintain your population. Once you kill more than that number, your doe herd will drop, and you will see way more immature bucks than anything else.

Here is food for thought. On 1050 acre's, unless all my adjacent landowners are on a "let the bucks grow" program, what chance do we have if we let ours grow to produce a really nice one? I say not much. It's like being in a club that is 6 pt or better. If I pass a small 6 to let it grow, what guarantee do I have the next guy won't kill it? I have none.

I have some nice 6pt's right now I am watching on camera. There are probably 4 of them. Most any guy in my club would shoot one if it walked out in front of them. So, my letting it go accomplishes what? If I am lucky, no one else sees him, and he gets to live another year.

I just wonder if we wouldn't be better off going back to doe season, and upping the buck limit, and letting people shoot what they want.
Posted By: Semo

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Lockjaw
All I know is the biologist for the state came out and looked at my lease and recommended we kill 15 doe's the first year, and get them aged. She also said that you are missing 70% of your deer if you aren't in the woods versus a green field. If I look at game check numbers for Shelby Co for last deer season, more bucks were killed than doe's. Dr. Grant Woods told me the best I could hope for on twin fawns was 48/52% one way or another.

All I know for sure was when I was in college, and we had doe season, I could sit on a green field and see deer every day. If we needed meat, we would shoot a spike, or wait until doe season, or use archery. When you are in a club, and they shoot every doe that walks out on a green field, guess what happens? They stop. A doe is no different than a buck if you pressure it, it will be nocturnal too.

I personally think the buck limit needs to be higher. And the doe a day limit needs to be changed to something much lower, like 5 per season.

Here is simple math. Shelby Co has a deer density of 30 to 60 deer per square mile. I am on the lower end of that, I feel certain. I have 1050 acres, which means I have around 50 to 100 deer on the property basically. If I was 1 to 1, which I am not, but assuming I was, that means I have 25 to 50 doe's. If I have 25, and I kill 15, that leaves 10 to breed, and at best, I have 10 doe fawns as a result. If none die from Yotes, then going into the next season I have 20 doe's. There is a sustainable number you have to have to kill a certain number of doe's and maintain your population. Once you kill more than that number, your doe herd will drop, and you will see way more immature bucks than anything else.

Here is food for thought. On 1050 acre's, unless all my adjacent landowners are on a "let the bucks grow" program, what chance do we have if we let ours grow to produce a really nice one? I say not much. It's like being in a club that is 6 pt or better. If I pass a small 6 to let it grow, what guarantee do I have the next guy won't kill it? I have none.

I have some nice 6pt's right now I am watching on camera. There are probably 4 of them. Most any guy in my club would shoot one if it walked out in front of them. So, my letting it go accomplishes what? If I am lucky, no one else sees him, and he gets to live another year.

I just wonder if we wouldn't be better off going back to doe season, and upping the buck limit, and letting people shoot what they want.





I made a model for both buck and doe harvest that also includes age cohorts. But, the model is only as good as the data that was put in. Mine doesnt account for dispersal (in or out) because those figures are impossible to know. I spent a lot of time on the model but most of the data came from refuges and agrucultural land. Survival was really too high compared to the property I actually hunt. But the bigger issue is disease outbreaks. Sure, you can make a model account for them (mine does) but when you see how much variabilty there is over decades long reproduction and mortality rates modeling at the fine scale becomes difficult. That is why the states dont do it.
Posted By: 3FFarms

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 09:58 PM

Here are the facts of what I know…

Weights are on a 5 year decline
Fawn recruitment is poor
Coyote numbers are up
Does are dry

Still have plenty of deer but worried about the younger age structure.

My takeaways are harvest more mouths (or don’t based on a couple of posts) and aggressively pursue coyotes.
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/05/22 10:07 PM

Brandon, give me a call some time and I’ll help you. 😉
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/06/22 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by 3FFarms
Here are the facts of what I know…

Weights are on a 5 year decline
Fawn recruitment is poor
Coyote numbers are up
Does are dry

Still have plenty of deer but worried about the younger age structure.

My takeaways are harvest more mouths (or don’t based on a couple of posts) and aggressively pursue coyotes.


Just curious but when you say weights are down......how much are you talking about? Has there been any change in corn feeding habits during this time?
Posted By: Goatkiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/06/22 02:53 PM

If you have a young age structure someone is shooting the deer.

Because if nobody shoots a deer..... you will have 5 year old deer.

100% of the time.

You have coyotes eating a lot of fawns.... yet you are still seeing plenty of deer but we think the weights are down. None of that adds up.

You cannot manage your deer herd with your rifle. That is a fools errand for 9 out of 10 maybe 10 out of 10 hunters. You aren't hunting in the Big Pen.

If you aren't seeing deer in the plots.... you have too much hunting pressure IMO. Full Circle back to the beginning. Stop the killing. Your hunting will drastically improve provided the problem is not your neighbors trigger habits. If so, then you have a much bigger problem.

If you are not shooting many yourself it sounds like you might have Lockjaw's associates in your neighborhood blasting 6 pointers... because if it walks past the next guy...it's dead. Someone's got to get it first.


Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/06/22 06:26 PM

It’s amazing to me how there can be two opinions on this topic and they be so far apart from each other. Reminds me of politics 😂
Posted By: 3FFarms

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/06/22 08:58 PM

CNC and Goatkiller: to address a couple of points y’all raised…and I always knew y’all were best friends anyhow…🤣

Weights have decreased about 5-10% from when I first joined, which would have been 2018-2019 season.

When I say we have plenty of deer, we’re above average for the surrounding area. You can take it from me, or several others here on this site that have a hand in what we’re doing, our browsing pressure is intense on fields.

I think we have 2 problems…

1) Hunting Pressure which leads to less deer sightings
2) Coyotes on fawning

I don’t know what to do about the decrease in weights. Our fields show more pressure than what I remember seeing that first year but deer sightings overall are down. And I’m not a food plot sitter.

We made an effort this year to correct some bucks that were being shot that shouldn’t be. It’s been marginally successful, but we’re heading in the right direction.

Both of those (pressure and coyotes) are something we can try to correct.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/06/22 10:02 PM

I would at least do one good trapping run per year to keep the same packs of yotes from living on your property year after year……I think the longer individual yotes and their offspring work the same area the more efficient they become at utilizing the areas “resources”…….Other yotes will eventually fill back in but it’ll be new ones that are not likely to be as impactful……I’d want to constantly have new dogs filling back in versus the same packs making a career out of your place. I think theres likely cases where they become much more viscous killers when this happens…….One thing I pretty certain they learn to do is to check food plots and roadways in the fall looking for dead and injured deer…..The more of it they are exposed to, the more they adapt their behavior to targeting the local deer as a key food source. This is when they start checking healthy ones looking for the weak which causes “pressure”. If a buck gets injured or run down during the rut now, he has a constant predator roaming around waiting to take advantage of it. Two or three yotes can take down a grown deer with a busted up leg


As far as the weights……there’s a lot more questions I’d have about the “data” that was obtained before making any kind of judgement about a 5-10% difference……..How many deer are we talking about sampling each season???.......Are we counting does and bucks together or are we just talking about doe weights??.......If its just doe weights have y’all clipped off the older does in the herd and lowered the average age of the does being sampled??.......Etc….etc….etc…….My point being that there are a lot of variables at play here deciding whether or not you’re looking at good data. ……So I don’t know how much stock I’d put in a 5-10% variation……and without other reasons to do so, I don’t think I would use that alone as a reason to make changes
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/06/22 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Goatkiller
You cannot manage your deer herd with your rifle. That is a fools errand for 9 out of 10 maybe 10 out of 10 hunters. You aren't hunting in the Big Pen.


Scratching my head goatkiller. This one needs explaining. EVERY trigger pull is a management decision. To suggest we don’t manage deer with rifles is very false. If that’s the case let’s petition the state to have a 12 month rifle season with no bag limit. We’ll see how that plays out.

Midwest states have very few gun days for what reason? To manage a deer herd.

The southeast has extended gun days for what reason? To manage a deer herd.

It’s been brought up a few times by you that the biologists, particularly those with the state, promote killing all the does. That’s not true. It hasn’t been suggested in this or the other thread either. You can’t put words into professional deer managers mouths and expect to be taken seriously. It don’t work that way.

For the record, other than 3FF, unless there are other members on this site, I’m the only one who’s commented who’s actually been on the property. 😉
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/06/22 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
I would at least do one good trapping run per year to keep the same packs of yotes from living on your property year after year……I think the longer individual yotes and their offspring work the same area the more efficient they become at utilizing the areas “resources”…….Other yotes will eventually fill back in but it’ll be new ones that are not likely to be as impactful……I’d want to constantly have new dogs filling back in versus the same packs making a career out of your place. I think theres likely cases where they become much more viscous killers when this happens…….One thing I pretty certain they learn to do is to check food plots and roadways in the fall looking for dead and injured deer…..The more of it they are exposed to, the more they adapt their behavior to targeting the local deer as a key food source. This is when they start checking healthy ones looking for the weak which causes “pressure”. If a buck gets injured or run down during the rut now, he has a constant predator roaming around waiting to take advantage of it. Two or three yotes can take down a grown deer with a busted up leg


As far as the weights……there’s a lot more questions I’d have about the “data” that was obtained before making any kind of judgement about a 5-10% difference……..How many deer are we talking about sampling each season???.......Are we counting does and bucks together or are we just talking about doe weights??.......If its just doe weights have y’all clipped off the older does in the herd and lowered the average age of the does being sampled??.......Etc….etc….etc…….My point being that there are a lot of variables at play here deciding whether or not you’re looking at good data. ……So I don’t know how much stock I’d put in a 5-10% variation……and without other reasons to do so, I don’t think I would use that alone as a reason to make changes



That's way I kill ever coyote I see . They may move back tomorrow or next year but like you and me they got to find the recourse they need . Nothing wrong with buying time
Posted By: Backwards cowboy

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 12:23 AM

Goat killer, you have to understand in today's society education has overtaken common sense. I'm uneducated but completely understand and agree, there's no possible way to get more deer by shooting more deer. One biological fact that is being overlooked is that nature attempts to correct the ratio on its own. So if there is a given area where there are to many does mother nature will have more doe fawns than buck fawns. Unfortunately mother nature doesn't do this according to roads and property lines! So if a given group of does has a majority buck birth ratio but you keep killing young bucks, no gain it that area. If you shoot alot of does the same is true just opposite. The bottom line is, want more deer shoot less deer, want older deer shoot older deer!
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Backwoods cowboy
Goat killer, you have to understand in today's society education has overtaken common sense. I'm uneducated but completely understand and agree, there's no possible way to get more deer by shooting more deer. One biological fact that is being overlooked is that nature attempts to correct the ratio on its own. So if there is a given area where there are to many does mother nature will have more doe fawns than buck fawns. Unfortunately mother nature doesn't do this according to roads and property lines! So if a given group of does has a majority buck birth ratio but you keep killing young bucks, no gain it that area. If you shoot alot of does the same is true just opposite. The bottom line is, want more deer shoot less deer, want older deer shoot older deer!


I don’t think I’ve ever seen ppl who can take things out of context any better than the folks on ALdeer. 😂

The point I was making is that sex ratios heavily favoring females leads to lower reproductive success and physical fitness than herds with a more balanced ratio. Those are facts. Not academic opinions. Facts backed up by every study ever conducted on deer breeding behaviors. Correcting the sex ratio by whatever means needed will begin to correct the problem. My recommendation would be a three sided approach including improving habitat condition, lowering doe numbers and NOT shooting any bucks for a couple of seasons. I did not say shoot all the does. I did not say shoot most of the does. I said shoot some. If 30 deer are piling into one food plot in the evenings that is a sign of poor habitat condition around them. They need more options. They need more browse. Improve the habitat. Make it attractive to male deer. If it’s occupied and dominated by social units of antlerless deer with limited cover and food availability it’s not going to attract bucks at all, except during estrous. Then they’ll leave and go back from where they came. Leaving that unantlered population on the landscape with piss poor habitat is not going to fix a thing. That’s not academics. That’s not schooling. That’s deer management.
Posted By: jb20

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 12:46 AM

🤣🤣🤣
This is interesting
Posted By: Backwards cowboy

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 12:51 AM

Piss poor habitat due to over population would lead to disease and starvation! Both huge problems in alabama! I would also like to see pictures.
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 01:01 AM

Deer can survive and get by in poor habitat. That doesn’t mean they thrive and live up to their reproductive potential. They’re not going to die of disease until it reaches critical levels. They do however, lose physical fitness, body weights decrease, reproductive success decreases, antler expression decreases, etc and I’ve seen this happen in several areas over the years. Mostly in parts of the state that experienced population increases due to restocking, or populations naturally expanding into habitats with few deer for several generations. People get used to the population boom and high antler scores, think that’s sustainable over time, and do not correct population numbers with habitat condition. Then when the population levels off with what the habitat can support people start grumbling about no more big bucks, too many does, and lower body weights. Hmmmmm. 🤔
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by Backwoods cowboy
Goat killer, you have to understand in today's society education has overtaken common sense. I'm uneducated but completely understand and agree, there's no possible way to get more deer by shooting more deer. One biological fact that is being overlooked is that nature attempts to correct the ratio on its own. So if there is a given area where there are to many does mother nature will have more doe fawns than buck fawns. Unfortunately mother nature doesn't do this according to roads and property lines! So if a given group of does has a majority buck birth ratio but you keep killing young bucks, no gain it that area. If you shoot alot of does the same is true just opposite. The bottom line is, want more deer shoot less deer, want older deer shoot older deer!



Nailed it! thumbup
Posted By: Backwards cowboy

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 01:26 AM

Mbrock, I don't want to offend anyone, but this is a topic that really (to me) is the cause of alot of management problems in the southeast. And it just doesn't make sense, so to put it in perspective I'll say this then quit. My personal management program has been an attempt to get larger bucks and as many deer as my property can hold. I think this is what most people want. I don't think anyone atrts hunting with the thought I wish I had less deer on my place. I have done this by not shooting does and trying to only shoot 4-5 year old bucks and not killing more than two bucks on my property a year. Usually don't kill two. Last three years killed one each year. But according to what your saying I should shoot every deer on my property until I get to one buck and one doe.then 100% of my does will get bred every year, and all my bucks will make there full potential every year. I'm sorry but this theory and every step in this direction sounds ridiculous to me. But the results would be 100% correct. And one more question for real, has there really been any restock anywhere in the state in the last 20 years?
Posted By: cartervj

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Without an age on those does the presence or absence of milk don’t mean much. They could be 1.5 year olds and wouldn’t have milk anyway.

Even if they’re in the process of weaning or have weaned the mammary glands will still have a milky substance in them. Always cut into the sack and check rather than pulling on the nipple.

Two things. I suspect some of both. Could be a coyote predation issue combined with low reproductive success from skewed sex ratios.

Old barren does are like unicorns. It’s a myth. Does produce fawns until they die.



Good info
Posted By: FurFlyin

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 01:40 AM

popcorn

I just love watching people argue with a 100% certified, real, wildlife biologist. Don't you Matt? rofl
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 01:45 AM

That’s not what I’m saying at all Backwoods. Deer management should always be geared towards meeting a landowners objectives. I never make true recommendations without first getting the top 2 objectives, clearly defined, from the landowner. Then we spend a day looking at habitat condition, seeing what improvements are needed (all within the financial and resource limitations of the landowner) , reviewing photos, hopefully harvest data, and then I’ll recommend harvest strategies and targets. You won’t have happy deer hunters if you screw this process up. If you screw it up, then they won’t work with you. I’m not in the business of screwing things up. If you’re happy with what you are doing then keep doing it.

For THIS particular situation, based off the info given in this thread, the info I’ve provided is sound. Make habitat improvements, shoot a few does and lay off buck harvest. That’s not crazy. It’s not counterproductive. It’s exactly what he needs. And if I saw the place in person and sat down with him I might change my mind. It depends on what I see and the info he gave me.

Have unqualified biologists made bad decisions in the past? Yes. Have they done so in AL? Yes. Also, have people who have limited knowledge on deer management applied good principles in the wrong way and decreased populations to levels that were lower than desired? YES! There are properties that need doe harvest. There are others that don’t. One of the primary properties I’ve managed for 15 years has taken 35-45 does every year on 2200 acres and it’s sustainable. The habitat is great. Body weights are above average. The population is above average. Antler scores are average to slightly above average most years, reproductive success is good, coyote numbers are through the roof, and yet this harvest is sustainable and will be indefinitely unless habitat condition degrades. And it won’t because they work dang hard at it. 20 miles away I helped a member here, gave him some recommendations. He has followed through with them and has an exceptional place. His population has increased to where he’s seeing more deer, has a hood age structure and we started by removing 0-2 does a year on 700 acres. That’s right. Hardly any doe harvest just 20 miles from the other property. It’s site specific. Doe harvest will always be a tool. Always.

You can not offend me. So don’t worry about that.
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by FurFlyin
popcorn

I just love watching people argue with a 100% certified, real, wildlife biologist. Don't you Matt? rofl


Look. I will never fault anyone for questioning professionals. It happens in all fields. But Dadgum every biologist who’s ever joined this site and tried to share information either left cause they couldn’t handle it or left because they didn’t want to be bothered by it. Guess I’m a glutton for punishment. 🤷🏼‍♂️

It’s ok to hold people accountable I guess. No harm no foul. But yeah it’s entertaining.
Posted By: Backwards cowboy

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 01:55 AM

Mbrock pm me or tell me how to pm you.
Posted By: kkfish

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 01:57 AM

I don’t know much about it and thankful for Matt chiming in since he’s got good knowledge of the why and how. We can all agree to disagree on what may or may not work. Actually I’ve learned a few things from this thread. It’s a pretty good thing to have a person with wildlife experience at least offer his opinion on what he does or did for a living. Pretty much everything I’ve ever been told from camp talk is completely wrong so I’ll take some good advice. I think there’s so many factors from big tracts to little tracks in Alabama with so much pressure it’s probably pretty hard to almost impossible to control a perfect outcome.
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Backwoods cowboy
Mbrock pm me or tell me how to pm you.

I sent you a PM. Click on the blinky envelope in the top right of your screen.
Posted By: cartervj

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Originally Posted by FurFlyin
popcorn

I just love watching people argue with a 100% certified, real, wildlife biologist. Don't you Matt? rofl


Look. I will never fault anyone for questioning professionals. It happens in all fields. But Dadgum every biologist who’s ever joined this site and tried to share information either left cause they couldn’t handle it or left because they didn’t want to be bothered by it. Guess I’m a glutton for punishment. 🤷🏼‍♂️

It’s ok to hold people accountable I guess. No harm no foul. But yeah it’s entertaining.



I made mention of this kind of scenario today

In the early days of digital photography there was a site out of Canada called Rob Galbraith (sp) and consisted of the leading pros in digital. Matter of fact some actually involved in the creation of adobe photoshop and color management in digital world.

The newbies arrived within a few years and was telling the Gurus that actually wrote the software they didn’t know squat. It was kinda entertaining at first but the real gurus all left eventually and the site was sold. I learned so much from those guys and sad to say it’s an internet phenomena
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 02:24 AM

I'm just waiting on Goatkiller to show back up.........this is liable to be epic. popcorn
Posted By: FurFlyin

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Originally Posted by FurFlyin
popcorn

I just love watching people argue with a 100% certified, real, wildlife biologist. Don't you Matt? rofl


Look. I will never fault anyone for questioning professionals. It happens in all fields. But Dadgum every biologist who’s ever joined this site and tried to share information either left cause they couldn’t handle it or left because they didn’t want to be bothered by it. Guess I’m a glutton for punishment. 🤷🏼‍♂️

It’s ok to hold people accountable I guess. No harm no foul. But yeah it’s entertaining.


I'm offended! And maybe a pot stirrer. laugh
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 03:06 AM

If you don’t want to kill does in the first place, why would you want more does? Wouldn’t you want more bucks? Is the goal to have a bunch of deer on your property or is the goal to kill bigger bucks? Everyone who manages property for bigger bucks knows that a 1:1 ratio is ideal. If we know this is true, why would we manage our property for anything different? I think clubs and land owners in the past have just sat on green fields and shot their doe quota. Well of course the deer are going to avoid them in the daylight pretty quick. Then when they quit seeing deer on green fields they say oh no we killed all the deer. They are still there. Just staying in the woods and avoiding you until after dark. I for one want as close to a 1:1 ratio as we can get. Make the older bucks more active and compete for the does so we can shoot them. If your goal is to sit on a green field and see 50 deer then don’t shoot any of them. And when that young 3.5 year old 15” wide 8 point walks out shoot the piss out of him and skull mount him. Everyone has different goals.
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 03:16 AM

The biologist who came out on my lease said kill 15 doe's to start. She was a state biologist. Personally I don't see how you make that sort of assessment by simply driving around the property.

1050 acre's. To sustain that, I have to have at least 15 doe's remaining who have twins, and none of the doe fawns get eaten by a yote or die from something else. Nature is not going to skew the births of the male or female sex beyond 48 to 52 per Dr Grant Woods.

So the bottom line is you can only kill a certain number of doe'on an ongoing basis before you negatively impact the population. And that requires more data than an hour on my lease.
Posted By: 3FFarms

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 03:17 AM

Heck, I was just wondering why all our does were dry. 🤣

Member killed one above average today. Haven’t heard of it was wet or dry. He also saw a doe with twin fawns.

Maybe Matt’s advice is already paying off after only 2 days.
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by Lockjaw
The biologist who came out on my lease said kill 15 doe's to start. She was a state biologist. Personally I don't see how you make that sort of assessment by simply driving around the property.

1050 acre's. To sustain that, I have to have at least 15 doe's remaining who have twins, and none of the doe fawns get eaten by a yote or die from something else. Nature is not going to skew the births of the male or female sex beyond 48 to 52 per Dr Grant Woods.

So the bottom line is you can only kill a certain number of doe'on an ongoing basis before you negatively impact the population. And that requires more data than an hour on my lease.



I agree no one can make that assessment in an hour. She probably just applied the state average ratio to your property. I’m guessing she assumed it was 3:1 or 4:1. If you use that ratio at 45 deer a square mile then 15 does a year is sustainable. Especially if you make an effort to only shoot 4.5+ year old bucks.

1050 acres= 1.6 sq miles
1.6 x 45 deer = 72 deer
72 @ 3:1 ratio = 54 does
54 - 15 shot = 39 does left

By the time they have fawns at 50% females you are right back where you started. Of course there are other factors in there but that’s the jest of it.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
One of the primary properties I’ve managed for 15 years has taken 35-45 does every year on 2200 acres and it’s sustainable. The habitat is great. Body weights are above average. The population is above average. Antler scores are average to slightly above average most years, reproductive success is good, coyote numbers are through the roof, and yet this harvest is sustainable and will be indefinitely unless habitat condition degrades.

You can not offend me. So don’t worry about that.



So let me present this question to you………If the results of this strategy produces “average racks” then what is the upside to the hunter for going this route??....Should they hang their hats on the fact that their does are ten pounds heavier?? Because I can show that stock piling does on a property in today's day and age produces WAY above average racks over time for a property when the hunters on that property get to shoot the biggest deer in the area during the rut. smile
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Mbrock
One of the primary properties I’ve managed for 15 years has taken 35-45 does every year on 2200 acres and it’s sustainable. The habitat is great. Body weights are above average. The population is above average. Antler scores are average to slightly above average most years, reproductive success is good, coyote numbers are through the roof, and yet this harvest is sustainable and will be indefinitely unless habitat condition degrades.

You can not offend me. So don’t worry about that.



So let me present this question to you………If the results of this strategy produces “average racks” then what is the upside to the hunter for going this route??....Should they hang their hats on the fact that their does are ten pounds heavier?? Because I can show that stock piling does on a property in today's day and age produces WAY above average racks over time for a property when the hunters on that property get to shoot the biggest deer in the area during the rut. smile


Wouldn’t you have a better chance of killing the biggest buck in the area if the rut was more intense due to a better ratio? Wouldn’t you want all the mature bucks in the area out running and fighting and competing for the does that are in heat? The chances of killing those bucks are much better when there is competition. More bucks and fewer does means more competition. I thought Matt explained that pretty well in his earlier.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 08:54 PM

No……the fewer does on your property during the rut, the more likely the bucks are to be on someone else’s…..The fallacy here is taking a “King Ranch” style management philosophy and applying it to an Alabama landscape that has a number of different external influences at play in comparison. Telling folks like jwalker or 3ffarms that if they shoot a bunch of their does that they’ll have better bucks in the future is just not true at all. The vast majority of hunters wasn’t to see deer and shoot bucks. They don’t care about if the does weigh 100 lbs or 120 lbs………..
Posted By: chevydude2015

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
No……the fewer does on your property during the rut, the more likely the bucks are to be on someone else’s…..The fallacy here is taking a “King Ranch” style management philosophy and applying it to an Alabama landscape that has a number of different external influences at play in comparison. Telling folks like jwalker or 3ffarms that if they shoot a bunch of their does that they’ll have better bucks in the future is just not true at all. The vast majority of hunters wasn’t to see deer and shoot bucks. They don’t care about if the does weigh 100 lbs or 120 lbs………..



I think you're comparing 2 different concepts here CNC. In my opinion, MBrock's management practice works extremely well when you have a large enough acreage under management, whether that is with multiple neighbors working together or a single landowner. If it didn't, then the Wyncreek Plantation's of the world wouldn't use it or similar practices...

For a single landowner that only controls 50 or 100 acres, trying to manage the deer herd by killing doe is a losing game. In that sort of situation, I would agree your best bet would be to maximize the habitat and food on your property and let it become a "sanctuary" of sorts where deer want to be. Then in the rut catch the big boy cruising through looking for doe. This is more likely to be the situation most people are subject to I would think vs having control of 1000's of acres. But, its also going to be the most difficult situation to consistently kill big deer I would think.
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
No……the fewer does on your property during the rut, the more likely the bucks are to be on someone else’s…..The fallacy here is taking a “King Ranch” style management philosophy and applying it to an Alabama landscape that has a number of different external influences at play in comparison. Telling folks like jwalker or 3ffarms that if they shoot a bunch of their does that they’ll have better bucks in the future is just not true at all. The vast majority of hunters wasn’t to see deer and shoot bucks. They don’t care about if the does weigh 100 lbs or 120 lbs………..

I have not told anyone to shoot a “bunch” of does. When anyone ever mentions doe killing on here there’s a handful of y’all that hit the top limb immediately and throw accusations of wholesale slaughter.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/07/22 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by chevydude2015
I think you're comparing 2 different concepts here CNC. In my opinion, MBrock's management practice works extremely well when you have a large enough acreage under management, whether that is with multiple neighbors working together or a single landowner. If it didn't, then the Wyncreek Plantation's of the world wouldn't use it or similar practices....



Wyncreek represents something that’s an anomaly for most of the state…..Even still though if I were managing that property I would look to do at least a merger of the two ideologies where some does were simply shot for the enjoyment of the hunt and not for trying to meet some management quota number that’s usually pulled out of the ether……I’ve been on their property tracking deer numerous times and virtually all of their neighbors properties and clubs and all of their neighbors, neighbors land and I own property bordering those neighbors…..I’ve seen what everyone else around them is doing and how the deer density exists across the bigger landscape within that subset area.

When January gets here and all the neighbors have clipped off half the doe groups out of their bedding areas…… I want my land to be where all the bucks from their properties go to looking for tail when there isnt any to be found elsewhere…..When the hunting club to the north full of good old boys from Sand Mt have reduced their doe population down……and the hunting club to the west has let the kids shoot theirs…….and the little 10 acre spot where another club camps and has a “meat stand” has thinned theirs down…..and so on………..….I would want Wyncreek to be where all their bucks went to when they left out looking for does…….Those other clubs surrounding them along with the farmer to the south with a depredation permit using them for target practice along with the two major highways can handle “managing” any number reduction that may “need” to take place

When a lot of bucks from the larger landscape area start converging on a single hot spot property……THAT is what increases competition……especially as you get later into that two week time frame for does going hot……As the number of hot does in the area begin to fall off and become fewer…..bucks flock to the places where hot does are still there to be found…..The most prized doe in the whole herd is the very last one in the area to go into heat on that first cycle……I would also point out that according to the data is our recent graph thread......most bucks that get killed each dont do so until January....70% or better of the buck harvest is still running around the landscape when the rut starts kicking off.


My point being that even though Wyncreek is a big property for Alabama…..it still does not exist within a box and has other external factors to consider when coming up with a strategy to implement……In today’s hunting era that has a good portion of the hunters still convinced to whack a portion of their does each year…..I want to be the place that doesn’t and holds a higher concentration than the surrounding landscape…..and if its 10,000 acre then all the better. All of that doe whacking trying to meet a management quota is a lot of excess hunting pressure that doesn’t have to take place in my opinion.

Let me present this question to you concerning this real world scenario we’re talking about…….When the doe groups using my little corner of this subset area get out in the highway and get run over….where is it that the new ones that show up come from???

Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 02:11 AM

CNC you should start a wildlife consulting business with all that knowledge.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Pwyse
CNC you should start a wildlife consulting business with all that knowledge.


........but....but......I'm not a biologist. grin grin
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Pwyse
Originally Posted by Lockjaw
The biologist who came out on my lease said kill 15 doe's to start. She was a state biologist. Personally I don't see how you make that sort of assessment by simply driving around the property.

1050 acre's. To sustain that, I have to have at least 15 doe's remaining who have twins, and none of the doe fawns get eaten by a yote or die from something else. Nature is not going to skew the births of the male or female sex beyond 48 to 52 per Dr Grant Woods.

So the bottom line is you can only kill a certain number of doe'on an ongoing basis before you negatively impact the population. And that requires more data than an hour on my lease.



I agree no one can make that assessment in an hour. She probably just applied the state average ratio to your property. I’m guessing she assumed it was 3:1 or 4:1. If you use that ratio at 45 deer a square mile then 15 does a year is sustainable. Especially if you make an effort to only shoot 4.5+ year old bucks.

1050 acres= 1.6 sq miles
1.6 x 45 deer = 72 deer
72 @ 3:1 ratio = 54 does
54 - 15 shot = 39 does left

By the time they have fawns at 50% females you are right back where you started. Of course there are other factors in there but that’s the jest of it.


I would agree with this to a certain degree. I don't think I have 45 deer per square mile. I think its more like 30. Game check says 380 bucks versus 566 doe's were killed in Shelby Co last season. So basically 41% of the deer on my lease are bucks, and 59% are doe's.

Using your numbers above (30 deer/sq mi) I have 48 deer on my lease. 28 are doe's. If I kill 15, that leaves 13 to breed. What I can say that tends to back up the lower number per mile is I don't see more than 4 or 5 deer on a field. If I was seeing 8 to 10, I would feel better. I have green fields no one ever sees a deer on. They use them at night, but because of the way my lease was set up, to many fields are on the main road, and its worse because I have 1 entrance, not 2.

We put some lanes in on skidder rows this fall, and I have a couple fields I need to expand. The ones I was able to lime aren't just killing it this year, its going to take a year or two for them to get the PH up where it needs to be. I think the thinning will help us, but it will still be a couple more years before we see that too. They clearcut parts of the lease next to me, so he will be a deer factory in a couple years. That should help us as well.
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 04:07 PM

I think CNC is correct about one thing in particular. In every club I have been in, there has been this mentality that when rifle season starts, bust every doe that walks on a green field. I was in one in Bibb Co. The rut there starts in December, and every doe that would walk out on a field has been killed before the rut starts. Think you will see a buck? Not likely. I was in that club 2 years, and we killed 1 doe after Janaury 1. You just didn't see anything.

Move to a LARGE club in Shelby County. Same scenario, except the rut kicks in later into December and January. They decide after 4 or 5 years to stop allowing doe kills off a greenfield after December 31. Guess what you hear in camp? "The minute it steps off the greenfield, I am shooting it".

I "suggested" last year that we leave doe's alone on a green field and people saw a lot of deer. This year we said you can't shoot one off a green field, unless its a kids first deer.

I feel certain that back in the 80's, when we had doe season, I saw way more deer.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
Let me present this question to you concerning this real world scenario we’re talking about…….When the doe groups using my little corner of this subset area get out in the highway and get run over….where is it that the new ones that show up come from???




The answer is that they come from other surrounding properties……From my observations, I think twice a year does go through a population redistribution caused by social conflict for resources where they shuffle themselves around the landscape. This happens in late winter when food resources become more limited and during late summer when prime fawning cover is potentially limited. During this time if resources start to become limited, the doe groups led by the old matriarch does typically kick the younger ones down the road.

This redistribution or reshuffling creates something similar to a physics expansion equation…….The rate of doe “expansion” for a given area is determined by the rate of social conflict between doe groups on any given property. Expansion will not occur in all area and will only really emanate from area where conflict occurs. So for example……a property like Wyncreek going in and trying to shoot out a “doe quota” is really just impacting the rate of doe expansion onto neighboring hunting clubs in the area more than anything.

What you would rather have happen in this situation in my opinion…..instead of going in a blasting out a bunch of does on Wyncreek……let them redistribute themselves to the neighbors and let them do the blasting…….redistribute the excess hunting pressure to them…..they’ll love you for it too

The social conflict that is occurring amongst the doe groups on the property where expansion emanates from is a good thing for your hunting as well because it creates more movement amongst the females in late winter as they feel like they have to defend the castle. With no shooting pressure on them and the need to defend resources will have them on their feet more and in turn have the bucks on their feet too
Posted By: Semo

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by CNC
Let me present this question to you concerning this real world scenario we’re talking about…….When the doe groups using my little corner of this subset area get out in the highway and get run over….where is it that the new ones that show up come from???




The answer is that they come from other surrounding properties……From my observations, I think twice a year does go through a population redistribution caused by social conflict for resources where they shuffle themselves around the landscape. This happens in late winter when food resources become more limited and during late summer when prime fawning cover is potentially limited. During this time if resources start to become limited, the doe groups led by the old matriarch does typically kick the younger ones down the road.

This redistribution or reshuffling creates something similar to a physics expansion equation…….The rate of doe “expansion” for a given area is determined by the rate of social conflict between doe groups on any given property. Expansion will not occur in all area and will only really emanate from area where conflict occurs. So for example……a property like Wyncreek going in and trying to shoot out a “doe quota” is really just impacting the rate of doe expansion onto neighboring hunting clubs in the area more than anything.

What you would rather have happen in this situation in my opinion…..instead of going in a blasting out a bunch of does on Wyncreek……let them redistribute themselves to the neighbors and let them do the blasting…….redistribute the excess hunting pressure to them…..they’ll love you for it too

The social conflict that is occurring amongst the doe groups on the property where expansion emanates from is a good thing for your hunting as well because it creates more movement amongst the females in late winter as they feel like they have to defend the castle. With no shooting pressure on them and the need to defend resources will have them on their feet more and in turn have the bucks on their feet too

CNC. There is a ton of movement ecology research out there to be read. I'd start with the source/sink stuff first. Many of these questions have some data that already exists.

Anthropomorphize much?
Posted By: Goatkiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 05:17 PM

Debate this until you are blue in the dam face if you want but the answer is very very simple....


I won't be back in the woods until the 17th I'm letting my place have a 2 week rest right now....

When I get back there I will see 20+ deer on my morning AND afternoon sits. It won't be boring. I'll see 2-3 racked buck most AL hunters would shoot. In fact I will walk to the field and the deer might not even bother leaving the food plot as I get in the shooting house. That's a regular occurrence but to be fair my plots are 200 yards end to end.

What are you going to see?

If you want to fight Mother Nature with your trigger finger go ahead... you will lose.

If you want to see 20+ deer and a few decent racked bucks anytime you want to go sit.... then go back and read my posts on this subject.

Simple as that. You decide what you want to do.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Semo
Anthropomorphize much?




Explain this one to me…….I don’t follow……How am I attributing human characteristics to deer?? ......I feel like I'm attributing the observed characteristics of deer from 1st hand experience of watching it happen
Posted By: Goatkiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 05:38 PM

One more thing.... when you stop shooting... that's when your buck/doe ratio will regulate itself. Mother Nature will do that for you.

WHY do people not understand this? The problem with a buck doe ratio is 100% of the time dead bucks.

100% of the time. There is absolutely no other way to get to "too many does".

So when you think things like... "I've got to kill these does so that my buck/doe ratio will be better".

WRONG.




Quit shooting all your bucks. Or plead with your neighbors to quit. They are dead. Once you shoot all those bucks and you have too many does.... and then next season you shoot some more 2 yo bucks because that's all you've got on your property... rinse repeat. You have a crappy property to hunt. Sound familiar? Most of you are living this. This simple fact pattern has eluded the morons at the DCNR since the beginning... maybe. I personally think they don't want to get it for other reasons.

That's EXACTLY how you get to or EXACTLY how you got to..... "Too Many Does".

STOP.

The Shoot Deer/Have More Deer Theory = STOOOPID.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Semo



CNC. There is a ton of movement ecology research out there to be read. I'd start with the source/sink stuff first. Many of these questions have some data that already exists.

Anthropomorphize much?



Let me go ahead and throw this out there in case its causing confusion with how some deer have behaved in studies or other areas……..There are some populations that are much more constrained by natural and man made boundaries from allowing social conflict “expansion” to occur. Guntersville State Park is a prime example…….These principles are going to apply a little differently to an area such as this that is highly constrained by “boundaries” in comparison to a property that might exist in Macon or Bullock Counties. In the GSP situation populations are gonna be much more susceptible to negative impacts on the herd due to “too many”……The other scenario of Macon, Bullock has much more potential for does spreading themselves out to where there are other available resources…….as well as having other major deer moderators called Hwy 29,80, and 82 that the GSP scenario doesn’t have. Just to note that GSP is a bit of an outlier situation as well when looking at what is “the norm” for most areas. These two scenarios above are on opposite ends of the spectrum for Alabama.
Posted By: Semo

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Semo



CNC. There is a ton of movement ecology research out there to be read. I'd start with the source/sink stuff first. Many of these questions have some data that already exists.

Anthropomorphize much?



Let me go ahead and throw this out there in case its causing confusion with how some deer have behaved in studies or other areas……..There are some populations that are much more constrained by natural and man made boundaries from allowing social conflict “expansion” to occur. Guntersville State Park is a prime example…….These principles are going to apply a little differently to an area such as this that is highly constrained by “boundaries” in comparison to a property that might exist in Macon or Bullock Counties. In the GSP situation populations are gonna be much more susceptible to negative impacts on the herd due to “too many”……The other scenario of Macon, Bullock has much more potential for does spreading themselves out to where there are other available resources…….as well as having other major deer moderators called Hwy 29,80, and 82 that the GSP scenario doesn’t have. Just to note that GSP is a bit of an outlier situation as well when looking at what is “the norm” for most areas. These two scenarios above are on opposite ends of the spectrum for Alabama.


OK?
I'm just saying you seem very interested in these topics. You have all the info at your fingertips, but don't get blinded by specific locations, species, and/or habitats. Animal populations across species can have similar dispersal techniques.

I'll just say, the more you learn the less you'll think you know.
Posted By: Backwards cowboy

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 06:42 PM

Anyone ever been to Cades cove? They have a zero kill policy. If you've been it's easy to see the heath problems they have there! Small racked bucks, bad buck to doe ratio, completely over populated, starving deseased deer everywhere!
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Semo


OK?
I'm just saying you seem very interested in these topics. You have all the info at your fingertips, but don't get blinded by specific locations, species, and/or habitats. Animal populations across species can have similar dispersal techniques.

I'll just say, the more you learn the less you'll think you know.


I'm just not sure I'm following the criticism.......Where are the inaccuracies in the things I've said??
Posted By: abolt300

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 07:03 PM

CNC, how big (acreage wise) is the place where you regularly hunt, and from which you are making these profound and enlightening observations regarding deer populations and mgmt strategies on? Not to be rude, but while you track on a lot of different properties, you're not physically on them enough to be able to use anything that you think you might see, or thing you know about them, in any relevant application.

Deer management is not a one size fits all application. Everything in deer management is an ever changing variable. Examples:

1) Say you've got 1000 acres and it's all big timber with some thick bedding areas and large destination foodplots with neighbors that shoot everything. You might not need to pull the trigger at all depending on your population and how much damage the neighbors are doing on their property or you might need to shoot a few does based on what you're taking off your property buck wise.

2) Now lets say that same situation changes and they clearcut 700 of the 1000 acres. You're destination plots may still pull deer, but the pull will be diminished during hunting hours due to all that open ground around them. You also will not be holding near the deer that you did when all 1000 acres was thick timber. You probably dont need to shoot anything for a few years, especially with your neighbors taking care of business.

3) Fast forward 5 yrs and you now have 700 acres of grown up cutover, full of heavy cover and massive amounts of browse along with large destination plots and 300 acres of big timber. Perfect habitat and most likely, you'll be experiencing a population boom as a result and you might need to kill 8-12 does depending on your recruitment and survival rates, and once again, what your neighbors are killing.

4) Now, lets say youve got the exact same situation above with the 5 yr thick cutover and 2 years earlier, all the property around you (5000 acres) got bought up by a bunch of big money doctors from Bham that only shoot 5+ yr old trophies and refuse to pull the trigger on a doe. With that being the case, you might have to shoot 15-20 does to keep things where they need to be because you will quickly be overrun with deer.

All of these situations might happen on the exact same 1000 acre property over a 5-7 yr period and each requires a different approach. It also doesnt even address whats happening with the habitat on the other properties around you which would cause you to have to further evaluate each situation. The final thing that nobody has mentioned above is buck dispersal. It is a proven fact that a mother doe will run her yearling buck fawns off. Average dispersal distance ranges from less than 2 miles to sometimes up to 20 miles, so if you are not turning over/shooting any of your mature momma does, all of the buck fawns, born on your property, are most likely leaving and taking up residence on the neighbors or your neighbors neighbors. In scenario 1, this is not a good situation because with your immediate neighbors killing every young buck they see, you're simply not going to be replacing many of your bucks. Scenario 2 is even worse because you dont have anything to attract what few dispersed bucks that are available. Scenario 3 is a little better in that you've got prime buck habitat so you'll pick up a few. Scenario 4 is a best case scenario because you'll have prime habitat and a bunch of bucks dispersing from the properties around you over onto yours.

You can kill the required does without drastically impacting anything. Practice low impact hunting and keep pressure down. Use 4 wheelers and atvs ONLY to retrieve deer and not for routine travel. Do not shoot your does with rifles and most especially, do not shoot does on or near you greenfields or feeding areas. Kill them with bows or crossbows in areas away from your feeding locations. Keep the noise and activity on your property to an absolute minimum. In the case of the 1000 acres, hunt no more than 4 people on it. If the weather sucks and is not conducive to good deer movement, dont go. If the wind is wrong or marginal for a stand you want to hunt, dont hunt it. As I've said before, I'd rather hunt a whole lot less days, but have fantastic quality hunts and an opportunity to see a pile of deer and bucks, every time I get in a stand.

Last part of deer management is pressure and people management. I promise you, you can put me and 3 like minded guys on the same 1000 acre piece one year and we might hunt a total of 40-50 man days or (8-12 days in total for each man, during the entire season). You can put a normal 8 or 10 man Alabama club on that same 1000 acres the following year and they would probably put in 200 plus man days of hunting. I can promise you that if you kept detailed observation data for both seasons. My group of 4, hunting the way I described above will see 3-4 times as many total does, 5 times as many total overall bucks and 10 times as many mature bucks as the 8 or 10 man club will, on the exact same property. It's just the way it works.
Posted By: Semo

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Semo


OK?
I'm just saying you seem very interested in these topics. You have all the info at your fingertips, but don't get blinded by specific locations, species, and/or habitats. Animal populations across species can have similar dispersal techniques.

I'll just say, the more you learn the less you'll think you know.


I'm just not sure I'm following the criticism.......Where are the inaccuracies in the things I've said??

Dude, you are responding to your own questions in this thread. I admit I haven't read all of what you are writing (lots of words). I never said you were wrong, nor did I say I agreed with your posts. You can get a little obsessed over topics and beat them like a dead horse.

As far as anthropomorphism:
"because it creates more movement amongst the females in late winter as they feel like they have to defend the castle." that is a textbook definition right there! You took an opinion you have as to why does may be more mobile and espoused a human derived reason to explain it.

I will say it again, there are thousands of studies that are out there if you are interested.
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 08:10 PM

Abolt !! That's the ticket.
Posted By: Forrestgump1

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/08/22 10:24 PM

I don’t know why CNC gets so much ribbing on this site. He throws some theories out there some of which I agree on and some I don’t, but atleast someone is throwing some stuff out there and not just saying this is the end all be all. There’s also several things I don’t agree on that studies and science have said to be true. Who knows, who cares, enjoy it. You can’t eat the horns fellas..
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by abolt300
CNC, how big (acreage wise) is the place where you regularly hunt, and from which you are making these profound and enlightening observations regarding deer populations and mgmt strategies on? Not to be rude, but while you track on a lot of different properties, you're not physically on them enough to be able to use anything that you think you might see, or thing you know about them, in any relevant application.

Deer management is not a one size fits all application. Everything in deer management is an ever changing variable. Examples:

1) Say you've got 1000 acres and it's all big timber with some thick bedding areas and large destination foodplots with neighbors that shoot everything. You might not need to pull the trigger at all depending on your population and how much damage the neighbors are doing on their property or you might need to shoot a few does based on what you're taking off your property buck wise.

2) Now lets say that same situation changes and they clearcut 700 of the 1000 acres. You're destination plots may still pull deer, but the pull will be diminished during hunting hours due to all that open ground around them. You also will not be holding near the deer that you did when all 1000 acres was thick timber. You probably dont need to shoot anything for a few years, especially with your neighbors taking care of business.

3) Fast forward 5 yrs and you now have 700 acres of grown up cutover, full of heavy cover and massive amounts of browse along with large destination plots and 300 acres of big timber. Perfect habitat and most likely, you'll be experiencing a population boom as a result and you might need to kill 8-12 does depending on your recruitment and survival rates, and once again, what your neighbors are killing.

4) Now, lets say youve got the exact same situation above with the 5 yr thick cutover and 2 years earlier, all the property around you (5000 acres) got bought up by a bunch of big money doctors from Bham that only shoot 5+ yr old trophies and refuse to pull the trigger on a doe. With that being the case, you might have to shoot 15-20 does to keep things where they need to be because you will quickly be overrun with deer.

All of these situations might happen on the exact same 1000 acre property over a 5-7 yr period and each requires a different approach. It also doesnt even address whats happening with the habitat on the other properties around you which would cause you to have to further evaluate each situation. The final thing that nobody has mentioned above is buck dispersal. It is a proven fact that a mother doe will run her yearling buck fawns off. Average dispersal distance ranges from less than 2 miles to sometimes up to 20 miles, so if you are not turning over/shooting any of your mature momma does, all of the buck fawns, born on your property, are most likely leaving and taking up residence on the neighbors or your neighbors neighbors. In scenario 1, this is not a good situation because with your immediate neighbors killing every young buck they see, you're simply not going to be replacing many of your bucks. Scenario 2 is even worse because you dont have anything to attract what few dispersed bucks that are available. Scenario 3 is a little better in that you've got prime buck habitat so you'll pick up a few. Scenario 4 is a best case scenario because you'll have prime habitat and a bunch of bucks dispersing from the properties around you over onto yours.

You can kill the required does without drastically impacting anything. Practice low impact hunting and keep pressure down. Use 4 wheelers and atvs ONLY to retrieve deer and not for routine travel. Do not shoot your does with rifles and most especially, do not shoot does on or near you greenfields or feeding areas. Kill them with bows or crossbows in areas away from your feeding locations. Keep the noise and activity on your property to an absolute minimum. In the case of the 1000 acres, hunt no more than 4 people on it. If the weather sucks and is not conducive to good deer movement, dont go. If the wind is wrong or marginal for a stand you want to hunt, dont hunt it. As I've said before, I'd rather hunt a whole lot less days, but have fantastic quality hunts and an opportunity to see a pile of deer and bucks, every time I get in a stand.

Last part of deer management is pressure and people management. I promise you, you can put me and 3 like minded guys on the same 1000 acre piece one year and we might hunt a total of 40-50 man days or (8-12 days in total for each man, during the entire season). You can put a normal 8 or 10 man Alabama club on that same 1000 acres the following year and they would probably put in 200 plus man days of hunting. I can promise you that if you kept detailed observation data for both seasons. My group of 4, hunting the way I described above will see 3-4 times as many total does, 5 times as many total overall bucks and 10 times as many mature bucks as the 8 or 10 man club will, on the exact same property. It's just the way it works.


Be careful abolt, that post made a lot of sense and we can’t have that in a whitetail management thread. Please take your sensible points over to the buffet or football forum. It’s not allowed here.
Posted By: Josh77

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 01:41 AM

I agree.... I will never be so much of a trophy hunter that I would rather see 3 does in 4 sits. I just enjoy seeing wildlife!
Posted By: FurFlyin

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Semo


OK?
I'm just saying you seem very interested in these topics. You have all the info at your fingertips, but don't get blinded by specific locations, species, and/or habitats. Animal populations across species can have similar dispersal techniques.

I'll just say, the more you learn the less you'll think you know.


I'm just not sure I'm following the criticism.......Where are the inaccuracies in the things I've said??


It's the delivery, and the overly wordy posts and that you think you're the smartest person on here. That's why
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by FurFlyin


It's the delivery, and the overly wordy posts and that you think you're the smartest person on here. That's why


The delivery???......Overly wordy???........Sounds like you need stop whining and thicken your skin up if "the delivery" is hurting your feelings..... grin
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Pwyse
CNC you should start a wildlife consulting business with all that knowledge.


........but....but......I'm not a biologist. grin grin


My statement was totally sarcastic and you backed up my sarcasm with your reply.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by abolt300
Not to be rude, but while you track on a lot of different properties, you're not physically on them enough to be able to use anything that you think you might see, or thing you know about them, in any relevant application.



That’s just absurd……What do you think we talk about the whole time I’m riding through each property with these folks??..... You don’t think I’m observing the habitat and sign while I’m there as well?? I’ve been going to many of them annually for the last nine years and have been on them multiple times……I’ve sat around the campfires with guides and caretakers shooting the breeze and looking at trail cam pics. Not to mention I’ve lived there for 16 years. You’re off your rocker if you don’t think I have enough experience with the area to have an opinion.
Posted By: abolt300

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 03:17 AM

My point was you aren’t managing anything on any of those properties and you’re certainly not doing it year round and most importantly you’re not responsible for the success or failure of any of it. Answer my question, how many acres do you actually control and actively manage each year?
Posted By: BCLC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 03:17 AM

I like the discussions myself. Beats the hell out of another publix ribeye roast or bull dyke freed from prison thread. So what if CNC’s posts are long, he’s just thinking out loud. It has nothing to do with him thinking he’s better or smarter than anyone else. Good ol’fashioned conversation. . .that’s all.
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 03:27 AM

I don’t have a problem with it, and honestly wish I had more time to put into but I don’t. CNC does see a lot of land. His observations and opinions are valid. I disagree with some and agree with others. Honestly I figure if we sat down at the table and looked at the same information we’d likely have more in common than different. I’ve discovered that is the case very often, even with ppl who strongly disagree on internet chatter.
Posted By: BCLC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
I don’t have a problem with it, and honestly wish I had more time to put into but I don’t. CNC does see a lot of land. His observations and opinions are valid. I disagree with some and agree with others. Honestly I figure if we sat down at the table and looked at the same information we’d likely have more in common than different. I’ve discovered that is the case very often, even with ppl who strongly disagree on internet chatter.


You gotta knack for saying what I’m thinking but in a much more eloquent manner. Great post Matt
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 03:34 AM

beers
Posted By: abolt300

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 03:34 AM

^^^ that I can definitely agree with. And CNC does raise some interesting ideas and provokes good conversation. “Managing” a 20, 40, or even 100 acre piece of ground is totally different than managing 1000, 2000 or 3000 acres of land, or a co-op. How you manage, what you can do, and what you can accomplish on a small property does not necessarily translate to larger properties. Like I said, managing deer is very property specific, not one size fits all.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by abolt300
^^^ that I can definitely agree with. And CNC does raise some interesting ideas and provokes good conversation. “Managing” a 20, 40, or even 100 acre piece of ground is totally different than managing 1000, 2000 or 3000 acres of land, or a co-op. How you manage, what you can do, and what you can accomplish on a small property does not necessarily translate to larger properties. Like I said, managing deer is very property specific, not one size fits all.


Tracking deer has given me a whole different perspective on the “scale” of the landscape here in Alabama and what we perceive as being a big piece of land. Seeing this property and then the one next to it and then the one next to that and so on just eliminates those boundaries in your mind that we form when we hunt one parcel……It’s much easier to see the landscape as a whole and in the scale that the deer sees it….. We think of 1500 or 2000 acres as “big” and stand alone when it comes to management but that’s so far from the reality. We tracked a deer the other day that jumped and went all the way through the neighbors 650 acre parcel in the blink of an eye. In most cases your overall hunting experience is still defined by the bigger subset area you exist within.

Referring back to what you can and cant decipher about a property just from tracking deer on it. This is what trails look like on properties where there are a lot of deer. They’re everywhere and its not hard to see in comparison to those that don’t.

[Linked Image]

Posted By: cartervj

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by abolt300
^^^ that I can definitely agree with. And CNC does raise some interesting ideas and provokes good conversation. “Managing” a 20, 40, or even 100 acre piece of ground is totally different than managing 1000, 2000 or 3000 acres of land, or a co-op. How you manage, what you can do, and what you can accomplish on a small property does not necessarily translate to larger properties. Like I said, managing deer is very property specific, not one size fits all.



The thing is everyone uses their personal perspective to apply globally. As in their experiences dictate what is true without accounting for another vantage point. Everyone does this.

I used to argue with hogwild and others about doe killing. My experience was on 5,000 acre of mixed habitat. 2300 acres and 400 acre with extremely little pressure for a thousand of surrounding acres.

I never thought of the 100 acre less or more management. He kept arguing and it finally sank in. A buddy has 300 acres and the surrounding landowners work together to make up several 1000 acres.

I’ve alway agreed with CNC about the throw and mow system. I was doing that in the 90s because had little equipment. A fellow on QDMA sent to Rodale Institute on organic farming. They used crop in rotations to build soil. I was able to grow alfalfa using this system with very little fertilizer and more lime.


Like Matt said, most are pretty close in agreement than not.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 06:10 PM

If you really want to make wise management decisions then you need to zoom out to 30,000 ft and look at the larger subset area that you exist within…….The perimeter of a subset area will be defined by things like lakes, major habitat breaks, and major highways/interstates……..To what extent is the deer population maxed out within that subset???......THAT is what should be dictating the idea of how many does to shoot……If you start seeing assloads of road mortality on the perimeter, then it probably wouldn’t hurt to pull the trigger a little more on some places……If you start seeing zero road mortality…..then you might want to think about easing up…….A good example of this is that stretch of interstate up through TN and KY where road mortality is like a blood bath…..That’s a good indicator of a deer population likely pushing the limits of the habitat. Much of the road mortality is likely coming from subset areas trying to expand…….The highways and interstates are like mesh points that moderates the expansion when hunters don’t.


What if your property is the best fawning in the whole subset area and the biggest supporter of the bigger deer herd around you??? Shooting a bunch of the does from your property in this situation just limits the potential of the whole subset and limits the amount of bucks produced to fill up those secondary areas and eventually converge back on the high doe pop property come rut time. Deer management happens on a much bigger scale than how we often talk about it.
Posted By: Shaneomac2

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 06:39 PM

INTERESTING 5 pages to say the least..
Posted By: Semo

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
If you really want to make wise management decisions then you need to zoom out to 30,000 ft and look at the larger subset area that you exist within…….The perimeter of a subset area will be defined by things like lakes, major habitat breaks, and major highways/interstates……..To what extent is the deer population maxed out within that subset???......THAT is what should be dictating the idea of how many does to shoot……If you start seeing assloads of road mortality on the perimeter, then it probably wouldn’t hurt to pull the trigger a little more on some places……If you start seeing zero road mortality…..then you might want to think about easing up…….A good example of this is that stretch of interstate up through TN and KY where road mortality is like a blood bath…..That’s a good indicator of a deer population likely pushing the limits of the habitat. Much of the road mortality is likely coming from subset areas trying to expand…….The highways and interstates are like mesh points that moderates the expansion when hunters don’t.


What if your property is the best fawning in the whole subset area and the biggest supporter of the bigger deer herd around you??? Shooting a bunch of the does from your property in this situation just limits the potential of the whole subset and limits the amount of bucks produced to fill up those secondary areas and eventually converge back on the high doe pop property come rut time. Deer management happens on a much bigger scale than how we often talk about it.


I do really enjoy your posts CNC, so don't take this the wrong way....But that is the biggest pile of poop Ive read in quite some time. Road mortality has nothing to do with habitat quality and/or carrying capacity.

Edit: well it may but in the inverse of what you are saying

Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Semo


I do really enjoy your posts CNC, so don't take this the wrong way....But that is the biggest pile of poop Ive read in quite some time. Road mortality has nothing to do with habitat quality and/or carrying capacity.

Edit: well it may but in the inverse of what you are saying



Do you want me to make some charts to illustrate how this is occurring a little better??? grin grin
Posted By: Semo

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Semo


I do really enjoy your posts CNC, so don't take this the wrong way....But that is the biggest pile of poop Ive read in quite some time. Road mortality has nothing to do with habitat quality and/or carrying capacity.

Edit: well it may but in the inverse of what you are saying



Do you want me to make some charts to illustrate how this is occurring a little better??? grin grin


That may be helpful. lol
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 09:36 PM

Lol cnc it's like you ask one question and get a answer then ask the pretty much same question but changed . Hoping to at some point get the answer you like lol

Course I don't care just how it seems to me lol
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 10:02 PM

Knowing how managing deer ain't that hard . If you ain't got a large spot of land you just gonna have what you have . You kinda control the predators but not people and I'm glad we can't .

Best you can do is improve your land best you can and hope that 3 year old buck you let go makes it two more years. You hope all the does are not killed .if you have a few maybe you kill one or two for meat.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/09/22 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Semo


That may be helpful. lol





So here’s a basic model of what I’m talking about with road mortality…….Let’s say you have one big plantation surrounded by lots of smaller properties that people are hunting varying from 5 acres to 25 acres to 250 to 2500…….. The larger subset area is defined by the major highways and interstate.

What I’m suggesting is that within this whole subset area you have a redistribution of doe groups that occurs when resources become limited in any given location. If the large plantation completely quits shooting does tomorrow, then when resources bottle neck in late winter and during fawning on the plantation….. social conflict will cause there to be an outward emigration of the subordinate doe groups onto the surrounding properties looking to fill in the gaps created by the does the surrounding hunter’s shoot……..This creates a doe “expansion” emanating from the plantation. Now lets assume that most everyone on the smaller properties are shooting does and holding their populations to well under capacity. ……Some clubs may shoot a lot of their does and create lots of openings…..You’ve probably all heard the guy who says that…. “we shoot does every year and they just seem to show right back up”……Those people likely have someone in the area who’s property is kicking out immigrants to them. I hope I’m using the immigrant/emigrant correctly. You get the point though.

In this scenario there are very few if any of our smaller properties creating any “expansion” themselves like the plantation because hunter harvest is preventing it……Road mortality would be fairly low because overall expansion is low…….Now lets change the variables in the model and let’s start having the smaller properties one by one stop shooting does as well……As the smaller properties stop having vacancies for the emigrating does to seek out…..the “turnover” for the area begins occurring more and more on the perimeter highways……Does that start trying to use both sides of a highway don’t last long……..this is where road mortality is creating the holes the subordinate females are seeking out…..it creates a much higher turnover around the edges than in the center……And you’re basically ending with the deer trying to push outwards a couple times a year and the road mortality eventually moderating the push and eventually the expansion settles out.

Of course this is not going to be as cut and dry as our model in all real world situations but there’s similar concepts playing out in most just depending on the setup.

[Linked Image]

Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 01:10 AM

I think he was kidding CNC…

And I don’t think you need 50k acres to manage deer. You can do it on 1000. It’s been done for years.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by Pwyse
I think he was kidding CNC….




[Linked Image]
Posted By: BCLC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 02:24 AM

lol
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 02:25 AM

That right there my friends has had me rolling for several minutes 😂😂
Posted By: abolt300

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Pwyse
I think he was kidding CNC….




[Linked Image]

rofl That’s just flat out awesome CNC. Funniest thing I’ve seen on here in weeks.
Posted By: OlTimer

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Pwyse
I think he was kidding CNC….




[Linked Image]


Well played Sir!
Posted By: Semo

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 02:55 AM

I guess I was just too high strung.

Good one CNC.
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 03:52 AM

One of the best movies of all time
Posted By: jawbone

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 09:44 AM

I didn’t read through 5 pages of responses but I will tell you what the highly educated and professional biologists that worked with us told us on the subject when we had to report this info for our management program. First off, in a healthy herd virtually all of the breeding age does will have milk. There can be a few exceptions, but very few. Secondly, you can’t always look and tell if they are dry or not. They may look dry but cutting into the bag will show the truth. A lot of people just look and declare them dry when a cutting will show otherwise. If you do have a doe that is truly dry, in a healthy herd she should be so old that she is beyond breeding age. That is the perfect cull deer.

If you have more than a rare dry mature doe, you’ve got problems. I’m not claiming to be an expert but we did work with experts and we did have an overpopulation problem and worked hard for a number of years to get it in check.
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 01:24 PM

It sounds to me most everyone agrees most everyone will shoot a nice 2 or 3 year old buck, so why not increase the buck limit and lower the doe limit? The whole has to have 4 points on one side doesn't help either. I have mature 6 points that need to go. I have one buck that's well over 4 years old that has a spike on one side and a split spike at the pedicile at the other.

Especially if what CNC is saying is true. The old deer I mentioned above I had pics of in 2019, and haven't gotten one until a couple weeks ago. Where has he been? I bet he is at least 6 or 7 years old.

Isn't there a better way to judge your herd? Like weighing the deer you kill and aging them? Seems like if you have 110 to 120 pound doe's you don't have a whole bunch, but if all of them are 90 pounds, maybe thinning them out would be good.

I'm not going to think I have to many deer until my fields stay mowed.
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Lockjaw
It sounds to me most everyone agrees most everyone will shoot a nice 2 or 3 year old buck, so why not increase the buck limit and lower the doe limit? The whole has to have 4 points on one side doesn't help either. I have mature 6 points that need to go. I have one buck that's well over 4 years old that has a spike on one side and a split spike at the pedicile at the other.

Lockjaw, that’s the problem. Or at least one of them. People are too quick to shoot any buck, regardless of age. What would allowing more buck harvest and less doe harvest accomplish in a scenario like we’re discussing in this thread? Buck harvest is already too high. That’s why there’s a skewed sex ratio in favor of females. You have TWO bucks of choice that allow you to kill any two bucks you want. Only one has to have 4 on one side. The regulation change was designed to protect more bucks and recruit them into the population to correct the sex ratio problem that plagued a good chunk of the state years ago. Increasing buck harvest and protecting more does is counterproductive to improving reproductive success.
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 09:33 PM

Look I'm not a biologist. What I am though is a guy with a keen eye and a scientific mind.

So what I do know is I saw more deer in the 80's when we had doe season and unlimited buck limits or 1 per day. Or you could use archery and kill a doe.

Now days, in most all clubs, if a doe walks out on a greenfield, it gets shot. So pretty soon there are no doe's walking out on a greenfield. That means bucks aren't either. In the 80's a lot of people killed bucks off green fields because they weren't shooting doe's.

So hunters get frustrated and do what? Start walking around and f'n up the woods. They go the deer aren't coming out in fields so I need to find where they are. In the 80's you could sit on a field and count on it, deer would come in every evening like clockwork.

So now we have trained all the doe's to be more nocturnal, just like bucks. They hole up in stuff we can't hunt, and make sure until dark, and then come out. The only deer that consistently moves during daylight is a spike or button head. Most clubs are 6pt or better, and a shooter isn't going to be hot after a spike.


Perhaps that's over simplified, or maybe I'm smoking crack, but all I know for sure is I don't see deer like I used to and it's getting worse not better. And the culprit as far as I'm concerned is the doe a day limit.
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 09:40 PM

Lockjaw ,,, you know what happened ,,,,,, trophy management! !!!!!!
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 09:56 PM

Lockjaw, reason people are not seeing the deer also is because they have stopped walking the woods . Now hunters plant a little spot of grass or fill up a feeder and set on it hoping some thing comes in .

Let's not forget safe places for the deer . Ha ha ha lol

And that's what kids learn
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 09:57 PM

Lockjaw, that’s a pressure problem. That can only be regulated by hunters, not the state of AL. We kill almost all our does on food plots and still see/kill bucks on them too. Saw a 4 year old buck yesterday on one in 70 degree heat during the December lull. How you approach a stand, how often, how you exit, and what you do while you’re there has way more to do with how deer respond than shooting a couple a year off each plot.

I’ve been trying to get people to understand this for years and few are listening. Long term sustainable populations of deer like a lot of ppl experienced in the 80s and 90s is not reality. That was reality then when deer were expanding and does were protected. Also, coyotes were relatively new on the scene. Once deer expanded to every available acre in AL, habitats changed, and native browse was stunted from increasing populations, the herds of today can not go back where they once were. I see browse lines on every single property I visit. No exceptions. That means deer are consuming most of the available browse. I’ve worked with a couple of properties on hunting strategies to limit pressure and they’ve seen a very noticeable increase in hunter satisfaction and success. The population hasn’t changed one bit. How they move in daylight has just from some simple changes.
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 09:58 PM

I say this as I'm sitting in a ladder with my son in the woods, looking at a very small food plot I've never seen a deer in. This is thinned about 4 years ago pines, and there are deer here, but there are no 100 yard shots to shoot, assuming we can even see the deer. It's thick.

I hunt in the woods alot. I'm not a shooting house hunter, although my back issues have slowed me down as far às going way off the beaten path. We can't do corn anymore, but I wasn't so keen on that anyway.

I have about 1 percent, maybe 2 of my lease planted. We limed after we soil tested. We don't kill 10 deer a year off 1000 acres. And the solution a biologist gives me is shoot 15 doe's the first year? Really?

I'm not knocking you, but we can't burn. We can't have 10 percent planted. We don't have a poweline, which is good, because it keeps trespassing down, but it's bad because that's a big open space I could plant. So we can't do the things that would really help grow a deer herd, but it's like the solutions I have been given are for places that are.

How many people want to pay $ and hunt for 3 or 4 years and never see or shoot a deer? That's what the doe a day limit has created.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Mbrock

I’ve been trying to get people to understand this for years and few are listening. Long term sustainable populations of deer like a lot of ppl experienced in the 80s and 90s is not reality. That was reality then when deer were expanding and does were protected. Also, coyotes were relatively new on the scene. Once deer expanded to every available acre in AL, habitats changed, and native browse was stunted from increasing populations, the herds of today can not go back where they once were. I see browse lines on every single property I visit. No exceptions. That means deer are consuming most of the available browse. .



[Linked Image]
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 10:14 PM

What is it now CNC? I need to make a graph?
Posted By: cartervj

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 10:15 PM

Is there any way to compare having a doe days season versus 1-2 does per day season long

I’d almost bet overall more does were killed under a short doe season.

Just like WI kills more in 9 days than any other state, including the 90 day guns season of the south. WI has more hunters in the woods opening gun deer season weekend than most others. It’s like a rite of passage.
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 10:21 PM

Left axis population. Horizontal axis time. It represents the growth of deer and peak in certain areas of the 80-2000 era. The leveling off is what happens with all populations, with mild fluctuations, over time, once they reoccupy areas they haven’t for quite some time.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
What is it now CNC? I need to make a graph?


Just all the reasons that you keep coming up with to justify why today's hunter has to shoot a bunch of does so they can call it "managing deer"...... grin


........and yes, a graph or two every now and again would be nice. thumbup
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Mbrock
What is it now CNC? I need to make a graph?


Just all the reasons that you keep coming up with to justify why today's hunter has to shoot a bunch of does so they can call it "managing deer"...... grin



You point to ONE thread where I’ve said people must shoot a bunch of does. Please. I manage deer according to objectives. If their objectives call for that we make it happen. If it don’t then we don’t.
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Lockjaw, that’s a pressure problem. That can only be regulated by hunters, not the state of AL. We kill almost all our does on food plots and still see/kill bucks on them too. Saw a 4 year old buck yesterday on one in 70 degree heat during the December lull. How you approach a stand, how often, how you exit, and what you do while you’re there has way more to do with how deer respond than shooting a couple a year off each plot.

I’ve been trying to get people to understand this for years and few are listening. Long term sustainable populations of deer like a lot of ppl experienced in the 80s and 90s is not reality. That was reality then when deer were expanding and does were protected. Also, coyotes were relatively new on the scene. Once deer expanded to every available acre in AL, habitats changed, and native browse was stunted from increasing populations, the herds of today can not go back where they once were. I see browse lines on every single property I visit. No exceptions. That means deer are consuming most of the available browse. I’ve worked with a couple of properties on hunting strategies to limit pressure and they’ve seen a very noticeable increase in hunter satisfaction and success. The population hasn’t changed one bit. How they move in daylight has just from some simple changes.



When you kill your does do you let the field fill up with deer waiting on a buck ?
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 10:38 PM

Done it every way you can think of but most often we kill does early as possible off plots and then the pressure is off. Most of our plots get hunted 4-8 times a season. Killed as many as 5 in one sitting and still had to run deer off getting out. Killed multiple bucks within minutes of killing a doe, with her laying in the field. It’s because they are not pressured. Sitting a field 2-3 times a week KILLS plot observations even if you never pull the trigger. Or you can hunt it very sparingly and shoot every dang time time and it don’t hurt a thing.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Left axis population. Horizontal axis time. It represents the growth of deer and peak in certain areas of the 80-2000 era. The leveling off is what happens with all populations, with mild fluctuations, over time, once they reoccupy areas they haven’t for quite some time.

[Linked Image]



Why do you assume we “peaked” in the 90’s from the standpoint of population???......All we did was reach a point where the size of the population became a major nuisance to other interests like Ag. That doesn’t mean Alabama’s carrying capacity was peaked nor did it define everything to come afterwards. That’s just silly to use that graph to try and define our deer herd’s history and future……..
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Done it every way you can think of but most often we kill does early as possible off plots and then the pressure is off. Most of our plots get hunted 4-8 times a season. Killed as many as 5 in one sitting and still had to run deer off getting out. Killed multiple bucks within minutes of killing a doe, with her laying in the field. It’s because they are not pressured. Sitting a field 2-3 times a week KILLS plot observations even if you never pull the trigger. Or you can hunt it very sparingly and shoot every dang time time and it don’t hurt a thing.


And that's with gun ?
Posted By: AU338MAG

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Frankie
Originally Posted by Mbrock
Done it every way you can think of but most often we kill does early as possible off plots and then the pressure is off. Most of our plots get hunted 4-8 times a season. Killed as many as 5 in one sitting and still had to run deer off getting out. Killed multiple bucks within minutes of killing a doe, with her laying in the field. It’s because they are not pressured. Sitting a field 2-3 times a week KILLS plot observations even if you never pull the trigger. Or you can hunt it very sparingly and shoot every dang time time and it don’t hurt a thing.


And that's with gun ?



Not answering for MBrock but I have been on properties like this. Limit human intrusion into the deer's habitat and it works. Loud bangs don't frighten the deer as much as smelly hunters tromping through their homes every day.
Posted By: FurFlyin

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/10/22 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Mbrock
What is it now CNC? I need to make a graph?


Just all the reasons that you keep coming up with to justify why today's hunter has to shoot a bunch of does so they can call it "managing deer"...... grin



You point to ONE thread where I’ve said people must shoot a bunch of does. Please. I manage deer according to objectives. If their objectives call for that we make it happen. If it don’t then we don’t.


He didn't like your dang graph. Take that! laugh
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/11/22 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by AU338MAG
Originally Posted by Frankie
Originally Posted by Mbrock
Done it every way you can think of but most often we kill does early as possible off plots and then the pressure is off. Most of our plots get hunted 4-8 times a season. Killed as many as 5 in one sitting and still had to run deer off getting out. Killed multiple bucks within minutes of killing a doe, with her laying in the field. It’s because they are not pressured. Sitting a field 2-3 times a week KILLS plot observations even if you never pull the trigger. Or you can hunt it very sparingly and shoot every dang time time and it don’t hurt a thing.


And that's with gun ?



Not answering for MBrock but I have been on properties like this. Limit human intrusion into the deer's habitat and it works. Loud bangs don't frighten the deer as much as smelly hunters tromping through their homes every day.



Same here but if set up right you could hunt ever day.

Nearly all the does I killed here at home were killed of the same 30 square yards of dirt . I just don't let the field fill up with deer before I shot a doe
Posted By: cartervj

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/11/22 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by AU338MAG
Originally Posted by Frankie
Originally Posted by Mbrock
Done it every way you can think of but most often we kill does early as possible off plots and then the pressure is off. Most of our plots get hunted 4-8 times a season. Killed as many as 5 in one sitting and still had to run deer off getting out. Killed multiple bucks within minutes of killing a doe, with her laying in the field. It’s because they are not pressured. Sitting a field 2-3 times a week KILLS plot observations even if you never pull the trigger. Or you can hunt it very sparingly and shoot every dang time time and it don’t hurt a thing.


And that's with gun ?



Not answering for MBrock but I have been on properties like this. Limit human intrusion into the deer's habitat and it works. Loud bangs don't frighten the deer as much as smelly hunters tromping through their homes every day.



Some of the most consistently productive lands are low pressure and never hunted when conditions are not correct. That in itself limits the number of times hunted. Weeks can go by if the wind is not correct for the property.

I know another property that is crazy, the numbers of deer on the land and the quality is an abnormally. They used to feed heavily, probably some really great genetics and the land is in mostly ag with some crops left for the deer. That takes a ton of money to make that one work.

Both mentioned properties. Kill way more does than bucks as the bucks have to be of the older age classes.
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/11/22 02:56 PM

Look its all a balancing act. How can I limit intrusion? Have less hunters. Guess what that means? I have to charge more. Which causes what? People hunt more to get their moneys worth.

How do I keep members when some never kill a deer, and never see one, which is what would happen if I let people kill doe's off green fields. I don't have groups of 8 to 10 doe's hitting a green field. I have small groups of 1 to 4. And usually a couple of those are unspotted fawns basically. 4 deer on a 1/3rd acre plot can keep it very short if they hit it every day. I have a couple like that. The same family group hits it every night. At least once. And then I have half acre plots of durana that aren't being mowed.

If I was seeing 6 to 8 doe's on some of the fields, then I would think we have a more sustainable population. Think in terms of round numbers. 10 members. Each wants to kill at least 1 deer. A buck is a bonus. That's 10 doe's. I need to have 20 left over that have twins and don't lose one to a yote or anything else in order to just maintain my population. If each member kills 2 doe's, then I need 40 left to replace my population. In a perfect world. There is no getting around the math.

Now I am toying with a theory that if I have better groceries than anyone else, I can pull deer off neighboring property. The problem there is I probably only have 10 acres of my 1050 planted in limed and fertilzed food sources. I don't have a way to lime the woods. My ph is 4.6 to 5. Adding fertilizer to those area's doesn't do alot. Reason I know, I planted 3 log decks left over from logging. Added lime and planted them. I have had to put a ton of fertilizer on them to get them to grow. Urea is $35 bucks a bag, so it adds up in a hurry. If I don't fertilze them, then they don't grow and turn yellow. Now next fall, it will be easier. But there is always the expense and low production when you add in new ground. It doesn't help the loggers scrape off the available topsoil either.

I have 3 spots I want to expand in the spring. But in order to do that, I need to deal with the stumps left over. That means I need a bull dozer or a stump grinder. One wouldn't take but about half a day, the other will probably take 3 days.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/11/22 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Semo
I guess I was just too high strung.

Good one CNC.


This same concept I described is what defines our rut as well. If you look on the map the state produced in that other thread.....that little green circle they have drawn in for Macon Co is actually not a circle (shocker I know grin ).....the true shape is defined by those highways in my diagram.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/11/22 05:52 PM

So let me preface this by saying that much of my opinion comes from having lived in one of the perimeter boxes for the last 16 years watching first hand what happens to doe groups on the boundary……….

But back to our model again……and for the sake of not having to remake it lets assume that enough properties are green (meaning exceeding doe carrying capacity) that we have expansion occurring for the whole subset, pushing outward and being controlled on the edges with road mortality……This is creating a constant recycling of doe lineage from within the subset area with little influence from outside of it.…..Again, the doe groups that exist around the edge start getting clipped off one by one if they try to have daily routines on both sides.

The estrous timing of the doe groups are running true to their original lineage…..These things only change through natural selection. Some of the does released in my area around where the green dot exists came from Clarke Co where the does have a peak estrous timing of Jan 20 - Feb 4……Other does from Sumpter Co with a little earlier peak estrous of Jan 7 – Jan 21 were released around Auburn……What we end up seeing today is how that all end up shaking out as the herds grew and filled in……The great, great, great, great granddaughter of the original stocking is still running true though if her lineage made it. This overlap of estrous dates is one of the things that creates more stress on bucks than just having a normal two week peak.

Now if you can imagine this like on the science channel where they are showing what a multiverse would look like with the whole state existing in a bunch of subset “bubbles” like this (from a female standpoint) with each individual subset going through phases of expanding and shrinking…….then you will see how our herd is evolving over time as a result. There are a number of possibilities that could be created by individual scenarios just depending on how you adjust the variables……

What keeps us held fairly stable currently is that we have increased doe harvest to the point where there is very little expansion occurring anywhere now. Have everyone stop shooting does in our sample area here and you’ll create it……Now, have everyone in the subset area to the north start whacking every doe out and you’ll start seeing more variance spill in from the south…….Let both bubbles stop shooting does and your mesh point becomes the highway with conformity in the center of the bubble and high variance on the edge. Habitat and population density of each area would also come into play. All of these different possibilities is what is defining how each little section of the state is evolving moving forward.

You would think that everything would eventually settle back out in a smooth natural north to south estrous timing but I think there are too many other variables influencing natural selection now for that to happen in the same manner it once did.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: treemydog

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/11/22 08:12 PM

I've learned a lot from these many pages - mostly about humanity, but it's learning none the less.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/11/22 08:12 PM

Sorta like so.......minus the wormhole or whatever that is.... grin ....They would be more irregularly shaped blobs though on a 2D flat surface.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/11/22 08:43 PM

So now if you can imagine you just put that model into slight motion like it’s a GIF....expanding and shrinking of bubbles, etc…There’s a lot of variables at play within each one of those irregular shaped bubbles that will dictate how each one and then the whole thing evolves and interacts…..I think that’s most important thing to see ……that it’s still an ever evolving and moving system dictated by how the variables in the model change over time…….
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/11/22 10:18 PM

I think the problem is development traps deer, and those that are pushed out of limited carrying capacity area's are the road hazard deer you see. It is sort of like the ecological version of playing chicken, or walking the plank. I don't see dead deer on the side of the road at my hunting club. I know they cross the road though. It could be a lack of traffic on the roads. Or it could be there aren't very many crossing the road. I know they are being squeezed out of area's though, because they are developing more of the area adjacent to my lease. Which probably means it won't be our lease for to long.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 02:37 AM

Originally Posted by Lockjaw
I think the problem is development traps deer, and those that are pushed out of limited carrying capacity area's are the road hazard deer you see. It is sort of like the ecological version of playing chicken, or walking the plank. I don't see dead deer on the side of the road at my hunting club. I know they cross the road though. It could be a lack of traffic on the roads. Or it could be there aren't very many crossing the road. I know they are being squeezed out of area's though, because they are developing more of the area adjacent to my lease. Which probably means it won't be our lease for to long.




All roads are not equal…….We’re mainly talking about highways and interstates ……When a doe group of lets say 5 does starts using both sides of the road…..after a couple weeks one will usually get clipped off out of the group…..a few more weeks and another one will……until it whittles things down to the ones who just use one side or the other……The usually happens in late winter……Doe groups that use both sides have a much shorter life span……Just look at the state’s map they produced…..Its already showing you your multiverse bubbles…..like I said though, their true shape in not actually round……This map is just partially complete.....Keep in mind that things like lakes and major habitat breaks also define the perimeter of each bubble

[Linked Image]
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 03:11 AM

If there are any does completely immigrating across boundaries due to expansion from within, I bet its happening during fawning.....that's just a guess though
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 01:56 PM

These are your true multiverse bubbles…..Remember we’re talking strictly about doe herds……This doesn’t mean that they are all different, just that there’s the potential for it.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: EmeraldTides

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 03:25 PM

No disrespect CNC, but I don't think the deer are as affected by roads as you think. I'm sure plenty of deer are crossing roads and highways all the time without anyone seeing them.
Posted By: Goatkiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 05:28 PM


CNC - Honestly can't figure out what you are trying to prove on some doe dispersal theory.... yea.... they move around and expand. Obviously. How they do this is not really an issue.

They walk across roads the same as they walk across a property line... they don't care. It's just part of their neighborhood. When the rut comes and movement in general is up across the board there will be more deer laying dead on the side of the road.... another obvious.

If you have low deer numbers and low doe numbers you will have near zero buck numbers. When you stop shooting them they come back some from surrounding areas like a cow.... they go to food sources. This is why your neighbor can plant a corn field and draw the deer from your property to theirs.

it's really simple. Think of deer like cows... they are just not in a pen and you can't doctor them. Other than they this is very similar to free-range cattle or sheep or any other animal.
Posted By: Goatkiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 05:42 PM

As far as claiming that Alabama has peaked in "capacity" with respect to deer numbers...... that's funny. There are areas around the State with very LOW numbers. For example... most public land. Our public land hunting is near horrible but it appears to me the States has said screw you guys who don't have a big 1,000+ acre lease. Rules for Me NOT for Thee. The entire State's management plan is not really a management plan at all IMO it is what big landowner's want. I'll get to the reason why in a minute.

I will tell you where Deer numbers have peaked... my neighborhood. They are eating the flowers by the neighbor's front porch. Appears we've got some pretty nice bucks in that mix too I have seen at least one 140 inch deer close to my house in Birmingham.

Amazing what happens when there is low hunting pressure or maybe none at all. Looks like Alabama has the potential for a LOT better racks IMO. That's my observation. But on the flip side...drive 20 miles in any direction and you might hunt all season and never lay eyes on a 120 inch deer.

Who doesn't want higher deer numbers and bigger antlers. Anyone? Tell me again how if you shoot up all the deer you'll have more deer and bigger antlers? 20+ years later still trying to sell that BS huh? Show me how well it has worked somewhere then. And then show me Statewide... It's a disaster.

What we are not discussing here is VERY simple.... we've got hunters all across the State. Nearly every available stich of property is hunted. We've got large groups coming in here from out-of-state. LA and FL are big draws.... They are spending money at every gas station, feed store and Mom and Pop watering hole in Rural Alabama for 3 months out of the year... which is all about the economy. $14 Billion per year according to the Outdoor Industry Association.

And there is your answer..... Blasting does = $14 Billion for the State of Alabama.

IMO what we have done is take the absolute most lazy approach possible to managing our deer herd... and decided like most things in AL State Government , that this approach nets the most $$$'s in Revenue for the State with the least amount of work or effort.

And there you have it.

It's simple to justify you get study done by some academic personality like Dr. Deer and you sell it too the majority. "The Science" (say it like Dr. Fauci).... all just BS and all the deer blasting is 100% nothing but politics.
Posted By: Semo

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 06:04 PM

CNC, I'll try one more time. Since CWD has become more prevalent deer movement studies have garnered an increase in interest. GPS and camera tech has helped a ton. There are great articles available that document buck and doe dispersal patterns. Instead of shooting from the hip you could access these documents.

Google scholar is your friend.
Posted By: AU338MAG

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 06:38 PM

Deer cant cross roads.

That's funny.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 07:17 PM

Let me ask y’all this question then for those who do not believe the road is impacting the doe herd……..If you look at the rut map the state has produced what defines where one area stops and the other begins……do you think it just transitions in the middle of a cutover somewhere???

Take these two areas for example they have marked as green……….

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: HippieKiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 07:39 PM

Most of that map has interstates bisecting large blocks of the same colors..........? If interstates can't act as fences, what is a county road supposed to do?
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Groundhawg

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ar1220
Done weaned there fawns
Didn't breed or get bred
To old to breed.
I don't know but here is what i do know I'm seeing more yearlings and fawns this year than I have in a long time. I also am seeing some what I feel like are old does without any young. I killed one during muzzleloader she was dry as a bone. Got one more running around with head long as a truck hood that don't have young with her and she's gone get it before to much longer

Also maybe coyotes have gotten the fawns, thus the does dried up?
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Goatkiller
As far as claiming that Alabama has peaked in "capacity" with respect to deer numbers...... that's funny. There are areas around the State with very LOW numbers. For example... most public land. Our public land hunting is near horrible but it appears to me the States has said screw you guys who don't have a big 1,000+ acre lease. Rules for Me NOT for Thee. The entire State's management plan is not really a management plan at all IMO it is what big landowner's want. I'll get to the reason why in a minute.

I will tell you where Deer numbers have peaked... my neighborhood. They are eating the flowers by the neighbor's front porch. Appears we've got some pretty nice bucks in that mix too I have seen at least one 140 inch deer close to my house in Birmingham.

Amazing what happens when there is low hunting pressure or maybe none at all. Looks like Alabama has the potential for a LOT better racks IMO. That's my observation. But on the flip side...drive 20 miles in any direction and you might hunt all season and never lay eyes on a 120 inch deer.

Who doesn't want higher deer numbers and bigger antlers. Anyone? Tell me again how if you shoot up all the deer you'll have more deer and bigger antlers? 20+ years later still trying to sell that BS huh? Show me how well it has worked somewhere then. And then show me Statewide... It's a disaster.

What we are not discussing here is VERY simple.... we've got hunters all across the State. Nearly every available stich of property is hunted. We've got large groups coming in here from out-of-state. LA and FL are big draws.... They are spending money at every gas station, feed store and Mom and Pop watering hole in Rural Alabama for 3 months out of the year... which is all about the economy. $14 Billion per year according to the Outdoor Industry Association.

And there is your answer..... Blasting does = $14 Billion for the State of Alabama.

IMO what we have done is take the absolute most lazy approach possible to managing our deer herd... and decided like most things in AL State Government , that this approach nets the most $$$'s in Revenue for the State with the least amount of work or effort.

And there you have it.

It's simple to justify you get study done by some academic personality like Dr. Deer and you sell it too the majority. "The Science" (say it like Dr. Fauci).... all just BS and all the deer blasting is 100% nothing but politics.


So biologists in other states that believe a 1:1 ratio is better than 2:1 or 4:1 or whatever. Why do they say the same thing? Is it also to generate tax money for the state they are in? Or is it a different reason?
Posted By: HippieKiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Pwyse

So biologists in other states that believe a 1:1 ratio is better than 2:1 or 4:1 or whatever. Why do they say the same thing? Is it also to generate tax money for the state they are in? Or is it a different reason?


I haven't seen him say a close ratio isn't great. It's just you get there in 1 of 2 ways.
Option 1: kill does until you only have as many left as you do bucks for your objective ratio.
Option 2: quit killing deer (especially bucks) until you have a bunch of bucks living to close gap on ratio.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by HippieKiller
Most of that map has interstates bisecting large blocks of the same colors..........? If interstates can't act as fences, what is a county road supposed to do?



We restocked the state with deer about the same time the first interstates were just being built……Like I said there’s a lot of variables at play here but you need to run the model back to when we first restocked (the big bang if you will)…..to when expansion was occurring into new ground in little multiverse bubbles all over the state……There wasn’t anything back then to restrict the constant push outward from the center with new births other than the available habitat……. There also weren’t many multiverse bubbles touching to have any constraints…..Pretty much the only one that existed back then was in southwest Alabama where a north south line created a natural break…..which likely contained an intermingling transition zone…..going from early Jan to late Jan.

The result of what we have today however is all of those bubbles have grown and “filled in” and then most have deflated back a bit when we opened up doe seasons. Like I said in a previous post……because a bunch of individual bubbles exist does not mean that two individual bubbles have to be different. Many of these places filled in long before we had the type of highway traffic that we do today.

I never said county roads do this……I specifically said highways and interstates.
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by HippieKiller
Originally Posted by Pwyse

So biologists in other states that believe a 1:1 ratio is better than 2:1 or 4:1 or whatever. Why do they say the same thing? Is it also to generate tax money for the state they are in? Or is it a different reason?


I haven't seen him say a close ratio isn't great. It's just you get there in 1 of 2 ways.
Option 1: kill does until you only have as many left as you do bucks for your objective ratio.
Option 2: quit killing deer (especially bucks) until you have a bunch of bucks living to close gap on ratio.


Option 2… not sure how that would work since birth ratios are virtually 1:1. Unless you are talking about other bucks coming to your property that aren’t born there. I know this happens but I would think it happens with both sexes. Coming and going. So if the ratio is 3:1 and we quit killing deer, wouldn’t it be 3:1 each year after that? Or am I missing something? I am sure I am just not catching on to what you are saying.
Posted By: abolt300

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 09:07 PM

Look at Wilcox County. Half brown, half green There's very few roads in Wilcox County big enough that a deer cant jump over. Rut map shows green on both sides of the river so that's not the inhibitor. Brown drops down almost to the line over on the east side of county. Nothing there to stop movement. I could see a major 4 or 6 lane interstate with an 8 ft high fence along it, prohibiting deer movement, but generic paved roads throughout counties? There's just no way. Deer cross paved roads all the time.

HWY 80 between Demopolis and Selma is a wide 4 lane in 90% of the spots and deer cross back and forth across it all the time. Probably dont cross it as much as they would if it was a two track dirt road but if one wants to get to the other side, it doesnt slow them down at all. We see bucks and does crossing it all the time, especially during the rut.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 09:18 PM

Either you see the different variables at play or you dont……The way they exist in our scenario and not just in a Texas deer study.....To each his own. smile

[Linked Image]
Posted By: AU338MAG

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 09:22 PM

This thread may be as stupid as the game camera thread...
Posted By: Goatkiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Pwyse


So biologists in other states that believe a 1:1 ratio is better than 2:1 or 4:1 or whatever. Why do they say the same thing? Is it also to generate tax money for the state they are in? Or is it a different reason?


It think this question is actually the opposite. Nobody else allows their "hunters" to blast everything they see. My opinion is the quality of the deer in neighboring States is much better than AL.

So the question in my mind is why we do what we do?

Why?....Because nobody else manages their herds in the same manner. So we are the outlier. It's 100% the other way around.

Mississippi - 8 deer limit per season. 3 buck limit.

Georgia - 12 total - 2 bucks 1 must be more than 4pt.

The only other place they allow unfettered doe blasting is Middle TN and guess what... IMO it's on the decline. I've hunted in TN my whole life. Nowhere near as good as it was in Middle TN before they unleashed the doe killers. Also - we now have a bunch of poaching problems we have never had to deal with before. They appear to want to become just like Alabama and are on the fast track.

I know quite a few people that shoot 10+ deer per season in Alabama easily. There are a bunch right here on this board.

If you want a better buck/doe ratio stop killing them. Mother Nature will do that for you. Deer herds do not naturally have a 4:1 ratio. That's gunfire that did that.




Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Pwyse
Originally Posted by Goatkiller
As far as claiming that Alabama has peaked in "capacity" with respect to deer numbers...... that's funny. There are areas around the State with very LOW numbers. For example... most public land. Our public land hunting is near horrible but it appears to me the States has said screw you guys who don't have a big 1,000+ acre lease. Rules for Me NOT for Thee. The entire State's management plan is not really a management plan at all IMO it is what big landowner's want. I'll get to the reason why in a minute.

I will tell you where Deer numbers have peaked... my neighborhood. They are eating the flowers by the neighbor's front porch. Appears we've got some pretty nice bucks in that mix too I have seen at least one 140 inch deer close to my house in Birmingham.

Amazing what happens when there is low hunting pressure or maybe none at all. Looks like Alabama has the potential for a LOT better racks IMO. That's my observation. But on the flip side...drive 20 miles in any direction and you might hunt all season and never lay eyes on a 120 inch deer.

Who doesn't want higher deer numbers and bigger antlers. Anyone? Tell me again how if you shoot up all the deer you'll have more deer and bigger antlers? 20+ years later still trying to sell that BS huh? Show me how well it has worked somewhere then. And then show me Statewide... It's a disaster.

What we are not discussing here is VERY simple.... we've got hunters all across the State. Nearly every available stich of property is hunted. We've got large groups coming in here from out-of-state. LA and FL are big draws.... They are spending money at every gas station, feed store and Mom and Pop watering hole in Rural Alabama for 3 months out of the year... which is all about the economy. $14 Billion per year according to the Outdoor Industry Association.

And there is your answer..... Blasting does = $14 Billion for the State of Alabama.

IMO what we have done is take the absolute most lazy approach possible to managing our deer herd... and decided like most things in AL State Government , that this approach nets the most $$$'s in Revenue for the State with the least amount of work or effort.

And there you have it.

It's simple to justify you get study done by some academic personality like Dr. Deer and you sell it too the majority. "The Science" (say it like Dr. Fauci).... all just BS and all the deer blasting is 100% nothing but politics.


So biologists in other states that believe a 1:1 ratio is better than 2:1 or 4:1 or whatever. Why do they say the same thing? Is it also to generate tax money for the state they are in? Or is it a different reason?


Why did nearly all the docs get on board with the COVID vax?
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 10:22 PM

I agree with goat killer.
Posted By: HippieKiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Pwyse
Option 2… not sure how that would work since birth ratios are virtually 1:1. Unless you are talking about other bucks coming to your property that aren’t born there. I know this happens but I would think it happens with both sexes. Coming and going. So if the ratio is 3:1 and we quit killing deer, wouldn’t it be 3:1 each year after that? Or am I missing something? I am sure I am just not catching on to what you are saying.


Year 1: 48 deer , 40 doe + 8 buck (5:1 ratio)
Let’s say each buck knocks up 3 does (24 of the 40) and 50% have twins.
That adds 36 more deer to the herd (18 does, 18 bucks)

Year 2: 84 deer, 58 doe + 26 buck (down to 2.2:1 ratio)
At this ratio, all the does could be bred, and let’s assume 50% twins again.
That adds another 87 deer to the herd (44 doe, 43 buck).

Year 3: 171 deer, 102 doe + 69 buck (down to 1.5:1 ratio)

It’s simple math. The higher the numbers go, the closer the ratios get and get there quickly, assuming you can keep everything alive.
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 11:25 PM

Hippie, each buck breeding 3 does is a fantasy. It don’t happen.

Buck mortality is WAY higher than y’all are assuming in your math. Even on properties where hunting related mortality is zero.
Posted By: AU338MAG

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/12/22 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Hippie, each buck breeding 3 does is a fantasy. It don’t happen.

Buck mortality is WAY higher than y’all are assuming in your math. Even on properties where hunting related mortality is zero.

Truth. Hunters have this misguided belief that a few dominant bucks are screwing all of the does. They find a hot doe, stick with her 2-3 days and mate several times. The buck has fend off any other bucks that may try to take her. This is why in properties with an imbalanced herd the rut is drawn out over multiple estrous cycles.
Posted By: Backwards cowboy

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 12:00 AM

If the buck to doe ratio is that off, there would be no fighting off other bucks for a doe. Everyone wants to shoot every deer they see and still have a bunch a deer. They know it won't work, so they try to justify it with this nonsense. You can get the deer ratio how ever you want it by shooting deer, this will never mean more or better deer population. It amazing to me how people will say all day long how messed up the government is and then rely on them to make decisions for them. If you want more deer or better deer quit shooting them. Believe me, wherever you live your neighbors will take care of any over population problems you will have.
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by Backwoods cowboy
If the buck to doe ratio is that off, there would be no fighting off other bucks for a doe. Everyone wants to shoot every deer they see and still have a bunch a deer. They know it won't work, so they try to justify it with this nonsense. You can get the deer ratio how ever you want it by shooting deer, this will never mean more or better deer population. It amazing to me how people will say all day long how messed up the government is and then rely on them to make decisions for them. If you want more deer or better deer quit shooting them. Believe me, wherever you live your neighbors will take care of any over population problems you will have.


What the heck does the government have to do with any of this?
Posted By: Forrestgump1

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 01:43 AM

I hunted some of the finest properties in Alabama during the 2000’s when doe killing became a big thing. In about a 5 year span watched those properties go from 20 plus a sit to include racked bucks to being lucky to see two or three. Several years later, and it took years, we reduced the overall harvest drastically, to allow the population to bounce back. During the low number years, body weights did not increase nor did antler size despite the option of way more available food. Rut was not any better, you were lucky to even see deer. Fast forward to now, you will see 10 plus deer a sit and multiple age classes of bucks. Management is not a one size fits all ordeal, but in my part of the state I’ve never seen a herd too large that the habitat could not support. I think naturally there are more does than bucks.
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 01:53 AM

Forrest is sounds like y’all shot too many deer and put way too much pressure on them.
Posted By: Forrestgump1

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 02:05 AM

We did what was recommended by the biologist that came out. 2,800 acres with 12 members. We were told we needed to kill about 50 does a year. We did just that for about 3 years. Neighbors to the north are at about 2,000 acres and to the west is about 1,500 acres. Black belt swamp bottoms. They also played into the doe thinning. It was tough for a while and took longer to start bouncing back vs reducing it. The tell all for me was to see no increase in body weights or antler quality.
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by Forrestgump1
We did what was recommended by the biologist that came out. 2,800 acres with 12 members. We were told we needed to kill about 50 does a year. We did just that for about 3 years. Neighbors to the north are at about 2,000 acres and to the west is about 1,500 acres. Black belt swamp bottoms. They also played into the doe thinning. It was tough for a while and took longer to start bouncing back vs reducing it. The tell all for me was to see no increase in body weights or antler quality.



And I bet the rut didn't get any better defined either .
Posted By: Forrestgump1

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by Frankie
Originally Posted by Forrestgump1
We did what was recommended by the biologist that came out. 2,800 acres with 12 members. We were told we needed to kill about 50 does a year. We did just that for about 3 years. Neighbors to the north are at about 2,000 acres and to the west is about 1,500 acres. Black belt swamp bottoms. They also played into the doe thinning. It was tough for a while and took longer to start bouncing back vs reducing it. The tell all for me was to see no increase in body weights or antler quality.



And I bet the rut didn't get any better defined either .

Nope, hell, after the fourth year we were scratching to see deer on a field that use to fill up with them.
Posted By: HippieKiller

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Hippie, each buck breeding 3 does is a fantasy. It don’t happen.

Buck mortality is WAY higher than y’all are assuming in your math. Even on properties where hunting related mortality is zero.


I understand that, just trying to show how the math works for ratio purposes in a perfect world.
Posted By: gobbler

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by AU338MAG
This thread may be as stupid as the game camera thread...


Or the spring burning post lol
Posted By: Backwards cowboy

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Pwyse
Originally Posted by Backwoods cowboy
If the buck to doe ratio is that off, there would be no fighting off other bucks for a doe. Everyone wants to shoot every deer they see and still have a bunch a deer. They know it won't work, so they try to justify it with this nonsense. You can get the deer ratio how ever you want it by shooting deer, this will never mean more or better deer population. It amazing to me how people will say all day long how messed up the government is and then rely on them to make decisions for them. If you want more deer or better deer quit shooting them. Believe me, wherever you live your neighbors will take care of any over population problems you will have.


What the heck does the government have to do with any of this?




Who do you think sets the seasons and limits, your aunt? And most people think it's OK to shoot what the limit or season is. That's why deer population over state is down. And FYI it's not for herd management it's for insurance companies.
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Backwoods cowboy
Originally Posted by Pwyse
Originally Posted by Backwoods cowboy
If the buck to doe ratio is that off, there would be no fighting off other bucks for a doe. Everyone wants to shoot every deer they see and still have a bunch a deer. They know it won't work, so they try to justify it with this nonsense. You can get the deer ratio how ever you want it by shooting deer, this will never mean more or better deer population. It amazing to me how people will say all day long how messed up the government is and then rely on them to make decisions for them. If you want more deer or better deer quit shooting them. Believe me, wherever you live your neighbors will take care of any over population problems you will have.


What the heck does the government have to do with any of this?




Who do you think sets the seasons and limits, your aunt? And most people think it's OK to shoot what the limit or season is. That's why deer population over state is down. And FYI it's not for herd management it's for insurance companies.



Sure it is , that why we have , deer check . Lol
Posted By: Lockjaw

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 01:14 PM

Insurance companies have gotten to rig the game. They control what parts you can use, the labor rate, even the rental car rate. They step over $100 bills to save $1. And that's what pisses people off about them. They pay the body shops at these big lots like Hendrick to be their adjuster, and then expect you to let their shop repair your vehicle.

Will never buy from Hendrick.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by gobbler
Originally Posted by AU338MAG
This thread may be as stupid as the game camera thread...


Or the spring burning post lol


Welcome back Goobler!!.....Good to see you posting again. beers
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Semo
CNC, I'll try one more time. Since CWD has become more prevalent deer movement studies have garnered an increase in interest. GPS and camera tech has helped a ton. There are great articles available that document buck and doe dispersal patterns. Instead of shooting from the hip you could access these documents.

Google scholar is your friend.



I’m genuinely curious here in asking but which studies is it you’re wanting me to find???……..I'm confused.....Are you saying I'm incorrect or are you saying I should use them to back up my hypothesis??........Because everything I’m reading backs up the things I’m saying nearly verbatim…….For example, it describes doe herd expansion existing on an outward expansion of home ranges like the petals of a rose……That’s exactly what I’m picturing with the road mortality……There arent many does growing old occupying that outside petal that loops across the highways and interstates….. that outside petal eventually gets clipped……and much quicker than you would think....it doesnt take years for sure and they don't form doe "groups" doing that either
Posted By: Semo

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Semo
CNC, I'll try one more time. Since CWD has become more prevalent deer movement studies have garnered an increase in interest. GPS and camera tech has helped a ton. There are great articles available that document buck and doe dispersal patterns. Instead of shooting from the hip you could access these documents.

Google scholar is your friend.



I’m genuinely curious here in asking but which studies is it you’re wanting me to find???……..I'm confused.....Are you saying I'm incorrect or are you saying I should use them to back up my hypothesis??........Because everything I’m reading backs up the things I’m saying nearly verbatim…….For example, it describes doe herd expansion existing on an outward expansion of home ranges like the petals of a rose……That’s exactly what I’m picturing with the road mortality……There arent many does growing old occupying that outside petal that loops across the highways and interstates….. that outside petal eventually gets clipped……and much quicker than you would think....it doesnt take years for sure and they don't form doe "groups" doing that either


I am saying you pose a bunch of questions and propose many solutions about deer movement that have already been answered by others. You seem to be interested in the issues of deer movement and I'm just saying that a quick google scholar search on "deer and road barriers" (or similar wording) will have dozens of studies with thousands of deer tracked to include what barriers to movement are. Some really interesting genetic work has been completed too. We don't have to come up with stuff off the top of our heads because the answers are out there. No one can dispute your "does guarding the castle" and "rose petal of doe dispersal" theories because they are all in your head.

You are the master of metaphors though.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Semo

. No one can dispute your "does guarding the castle" and "rose petal of doe dispersal" theories because they are all in your head.

You are the master of metaphors though.



"Female white-tailed deer are highly philopatric and female offspring remain near their dams for life. This suggests that a population expands slowly as a series of overlapping home ranges in a form analogous to the petals on a rose."

https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/96/3/494/905321
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 07:04 PM

Thanks, I see things clearer now. wink
Posted By: abolt300

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by gobbler
Originally Posted by AU338MAG
This thread may be as stupid as the game camera thread...


Or the spring burning post lol


Thank goodness we are burning up all those poults and nests in the spring. Otherwise, we'd be completely overrun with turkeys and then we'd have to start massacring tons of hens, so the gobblers wouldnt work themselves to death and stress themselves trying to breed them all. Turkey rut would have to go on for 12 months out of the year just to get all those hens bred. Then we'd be arguing how many eggs in a clutch were gobblers and hens and does a hen drop a 50/50 ratio in a successful nest. Like I said, glad we are spring burning to keep the population in check, otherwise, turkeys would be taking over like the hogs are.
Posted By: abolt300

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 07:14 PM

Here's a question, why are hogs so successful in their dispersal as they continue to expand exponentially across the state. If roads stop deer range expansion, why do they not seem to be slowing the hogs down in a similar manner?????
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Semo
No one can dispute your "does guarding the castle" and "rose petal of doe dispersal" theories because they are all in your head.

You are the master of metaphors though.



"Although many resources, such as food and cover, are increasing or stable during the fawning period for white-tailed deer, habitat and space for fawning are finite and may be important. Pregnant females become agonistic towards other deer, including relatives, around the time of parturition (Schwede et al. 1993; Jones et al. 1997). Ozoga et al. (1982) observed that all females in a captive herd isolated themselves and demonstrated territorial characteristics for several weeks at the time of parturition"

https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/96/3/494/905321?login=false
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by abolt300
Here's a question, why are hogs so successful in their dispersal as they continue to expand exponentially across the state. If roads stop deer range expansion, why do they not seem to be slowing the hogs down in a similar manner?????


The hogs are much faster and smarter. More quicker and agile like ninjas. I’ve never seen a dead hog on the interstate
Posted By: Semo

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/13/22 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Semo
No one can dispute your "does guarding the castle" and "rose petal of doe dispersal" theories because they are all in your head.

You are the master of metaphors though.



"Although many resources, such as food and cover, are increasing or stable during the fawning period for white-tailed deer, habitat and space for fawning are finite and may be important. Pregnant females become agonistic towards other deer, including relatives, around the time of parturition (Schwede et al. 1993; Jones et al. 1997). Ozoga et al. (1982) observed that all females in a captive herd isolated themselves and demonstrated territorial characteristics for several weeks at the time of parturition"

https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/96/3/494/905321?login=false


You have issues. My guess is you would start an argument with a rock, keep going until that rock finally wore away from weathering, and then claim victory.
Posted By: auburn17

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by abolt300
Here's a question, why are hogs so successful in their dispersal as they continue to expand exponentially across the state. If roads stop deer range expansion, why do they not seem to be slowing the hogs down in a similar manner?????


I have 405 acres here by my house in a long rectangle. A highway cuts across the top corner making a 40 acre triangle on the north end. That 40 acres is INFESTED with hogs and has been for 5 years. So far not a single hog has been seen, on camera, or any sign on the rest of the lease. It is strange
Posted By: crenshawco

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by Semo
Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Semo
No one can dispute your "does guarding the castle" and "rose petal of doe dispersal" theories because they are all in your head.

You are the master of metaphors though.



"Although many resources, such as food and cover, are increasing or stable during the fawning period for white-tailed deer, habitat and space for fawning are finite and may be important. Pregnant females become agonistic towards other deer, including relatives, around the time of parturition (Schwede et al. 1993; Jones et al. 1997). Ozoga et al. (1982) observed that all females in a captive herd isolated themselves and demonstrated territorial characteristics for several weeks at the time of parturition"

https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/96/3/494/905321?login=false


You have issues. My guess is you would start an argument with a rock, keep going until that rock finally wore away from weathering, and then claim victory.


I think its CTE from his high school RB glory days
rofl
Posted By: FurFlyin

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Semo
Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Semo
No one can dispute your "does guarding the castle" and "rose petal of doe dispersal" theories because they are all in your head.

You are the master of metaphors though.



"Although many resources, such as food and cover, are increasing or stable during the fawning period for white-tailed deer, habitat and space for fawning are finite and may be important. Pregnant females become agonistic towards other deer, including relatives, around the time of parturition (Schwede et al. 1993; Jones et al. 1997). Ozoga et al. (1982) observed that all females in a captive herd isolated themselves and demonstrated territorial characteristics for several weeks at the time of parturition"

https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/96/3/494/905321?login=false


You have issues. My guess is you would start an argument with a rock, keep going until that rock finally wore away from weathering, and then claim victory.


Most definitely.
Posted By: Wapiti55

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Semo
Originally Posted by CNC
Originally Posted by Semo
No one can dispute your "does guarding the castle" and "rose petal of doe dispersal" theories because they are all in your head.

You are the master of metaphors though.



"Although many resources, such as food and cover, are increasing or stable during the fawning period for white-tailed deer, habitat and space for fawning are finite and may be important. Pregnant females become agonistic towards other deer, including relatives, around the time of parturition (Schwede et al. 1993; Jones et al. 1997). Ozoga et al. (1982) observed that all females in a captive herd isolated themselves and demonstrated territorial characteristics for several weeks at the time of parturition"

https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/96/3/494/905321?login=false


You have issues. My guess is you would start an argument with a rock, keep going until that rock finally wore away from weathering, and then claim victory.

😂, luckily he doesn’t have too as long as Aldeer is still around. Someone around here will argue that the sky isn’t blue and grass isn’t green.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 04:50 PM

Meh.......folks just get butthurt when that can't defend their position
Posted By: Frankie

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Frankie
Lol cnc it's like you ask one question and get a answer then ask the pretty much same question but changed . Hoping to at some point get the answer you like lol

Course I don't care just how it seems to me lol
Posted By: redgineer

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 05:11 PM

I like CNC's posts. I may not always agree, but they get me thinking.

I review academic research and apply it to commercial applications for a living. 6 years of doing this has taught me that most of the literature wrong. Researchers publish for the sake of publishing, even when they got nothing. I'm not saying to disregard it, but don't blindly follow it either. I've hunted a few properties that were ruined by a wildlife biologist. I would like to have one come out on my land and give me advice one day, but I probably won't follow every recommendation.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Pwyse
Originally Posted by abolt300
Here's a question, why are hogs so successful in their dispersal as they continue to expand exponentially across the state. If roads stop deer range expansion, why do they not seem to be slowing the hogs down in a similar manner?????


The hogs are much faster and smarter. More quicker and agile like ninjas. I’ve never seen a dead hog on the interstate



Different movement patterns and reproductive rates than female deer……Pig expansion is being slowed by the amount of available habitat and hunters trapping and killing them…..There’s still a slow growth occurring ……A lot of the “jumping boundaries” of either specie is going to be impacted by the density within the bubble they exist and how much pressure is pushing outward due to maxing out carrying capacity for the limited resource. Expansion occurs during periods when resources are slim in relation to the population……Pigs seem to really expand their range in times of drought from what I’ve seen. This is when they will jump boundaries into new areas (growth)….

A good example is the pig population that exists in Macon Co south of I-85 ……The pigs are thick as fleas down the main creek drainage through the southern part of the county which bottlenecks down around Shorter where it hits the interstate……North of the interstate though are only seeing stray pigs here and there over time……What’s occurring is a function of the growth rate of the major pig population to the south……When the growth rate exceeds the number being taken out by hunters, eventually you hit a drought period when that overstock spreads outward looking for resources……You have sounders push across the interstate boundary into fairly pig free territory.

Now, these few sounders that spill over into the new territory are likely going to be heavily targeted and quickly taken out when the hunters who “don’t have pigs” suddenly see them on camera. In order for a true new epicenter population to form requires there to be some sounders that find places to hide from humans where they establish new populations in the next multiverse bubble. This is already happening to the north of the interstate but any pig growth is slow due to the habitat layout and ease at which their numbers are controlled compared to the population south of the interstate……That population is now inhabiting dozens and dozens of multiverse bubbles to the south

Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Frankie
Originally Posted by Frankie
Lol cnc it's like you ask one question and get a answer then ask the pretty much same question but changed . Hoping to at some point get the answer you like lol

Course I don't care just how it seems to me lol



I dont follow what you mean Frankie.......either time. grin Maybe you're mistaking some of my rhetorical questions for actual ones.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by redgineer
I like CNC's posts. I may not always agree, but they get me thinking.

I review academic research and apply it to commercial applications for a living. 6 years of doing this has taught me that most of the literature wrong. Researchers publish for the sake of publishing, even when they got nothing. I'm not saying to disregard it, but don't blindly follow it either. I've hunted a few properties that were ruined by a wildlife biologist. I would like to have one come out on my land and give me advice one day, but I probably won't follow every recommendation.



This is what is so confusing to me about Semo's posts.......Its like he's saying....."Dont think for yourself....look to a research paper for all the answers".......To me, the lack of being able to think for yourself is one of the biggest issues we have
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 06:59 PM

Let me be clear too about the deer…..Highways and interstates are not 100% complete barriers to doe expansion.....more like restricter plates. However, for it to happen you would need for one particular bubble to be rapidly expanding and pushing outward while the bubble next to ti was fairly void of females compared to available habitat. And that’s just it…..we don’t really have that happening anywhere…….there are very few bubbles “expanding” due to our doe harvest…….and for sure not to the degree of doing anything more significant than a very slight morphing of bubbles floating around each other.

There IS an amount of variance that occurs on the edges. As an example……You may be on the boundary of a bubble that has a doe population with a late Jan estrous running from about Jan 20 – Feb 4…….To the east you have a doe population dominated by does that go into estrous in early Jan…The closer to the boundary you get, the more likely you are to get a small amount of that spill over as variance. You’ll likely have one or two strays that pop off hot in early Jan while the majority will go hot in late Jan…These are does from the other herd that have pushed across the boundary.

However, these does will never be anything other than a small amount of variance on the edge as long as the bubble you’re in is already filled with late Jan does. If you have 99 late Jan does and 1 early Jan doe…..the likelihood long term is that the lineage of the one with die out…..especially if it establishes a home range with a highway running through it. This pushing back and forth of doe herds against one another is what is creating that lava lamp bubble type form you see in southwest Alabama……Highways and interstate mortality just creates that line more distinctly in other areas. These are ever evolving bubbles…..again though, with few bubbles seeing any expansion…..and why we see things holding fairly constant at this point in our restocking experiment.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 07:25 PM

The yellow and grey area for example is likely just variance in the sampling occurring between the Jan and Nov doe herds with I-59 in the middle…..Keep in mind that the state’s map is not a complete true picture but just the one they are able to make from the individual sites that have been surveyed…..They are reporting the “average” conception date. If you average Jan and Nov you get a date in December……You also get some possible second estrous cycle does from the Nov area which trick some folks into thinking there are three ruts....These "variance areas" could potentially see a hodge podge of action

[Linked Image]
Posted By: AU338MAG

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 09:10 PM

CNC having another rambling conversation with himself again...
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 09:58 PM

If we could go back and have a do over with our restocking…..I think we might have been better off to have restocked the lower third of the state with deer from Clarke Co……..the middle third of the state with deer from Sumpter Co……and the upper third from a source like Cades Cove with a December rut. What would really be interesting to know is how many native does still existed across the state at the time of restocking. There is the possibility that some of today’s bubbles grew back from native doe herds. The extreme northeast corner would be a likely suspect for it.
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 10:23 PM

Are you married CNC?
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 10:32 PM

If we would have done that we would see a much more uniform rut across the state with more herds seeing your typical 2 week peak……As it is now though, we’ve created lots and lots of these intermingling zones between bubbles where this “variance” occurs. Having an early Jan bubble next to a late Jan bubble next to a November bubble created by our restocking, creates lots of zones across the state where bucks are trying to actively breed does for much longer time frames than the normal two week time period……This is also why other folks report seeing well defined ruts occurring at the same time each year…..It just depends on where you fall out……THIS ^^^^ in addition to no age structure are the main drivers of “run down bucks” in our state. There’s not a whole lot we can do at this point about how we restocked it
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Pwyse
Are you married CNC?


Happily for 23 years....... thumbup
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 10:55 PM

That’s one heckuva woman
Posted By: Mbrock

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by CNC
If we could go back and have a do over with our restocking…..I think we might have been better off to have restocked the lower third of the state with deer from Clarke Co……..the middle third of the state with deer from Sumpter Co……and the upper third from a source like Cades Cove with a December rut. What would really be interesting to know is how many native does still existed across the state at the time of restocking. There is the possibility that some of today’s bubbles grew back from native doe herds. The extreme northeast corner would be a likely suspect for it.

We agree!!!!
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/14/22 11:41 PM

To make this whole multiverse bubble restocking thing even more complicated and to show the possibilities that exist…….You could potentially have a bubble that is dominated by Late Jan does……a bubble that is dominated by early Jan does…….and a bubble that was a 50/50 mix of both within the same bubble…….or even a mix of several……..Barbour Co would likely be a good example……It just all depends on how each of these doe stockings reproduced and spread after release…….Which ones lived and which ones didn’t??....... Which areas expanded quicker?......Where did the expanding populations meet and expansion stop?
Posted By: rhino21

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/15/22 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by Pwyse
That’s one heckuva woman



do you actually have anything productive to add to the discussion or do you just like to add insults? It's the latter if I had to guess but please enlighten me
Posted By: redgineer

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/15/22 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by rhino21
Originally Posted by Pwyse
That’s one heckuva woman



do you actually have anything productive to add to the discussion or do you just like to add insults? It's the latter if I had to guess but please enlighten me

My favorite part of CNC threads is the way he plows through all the hate and keeps on rambling. Reading 5 pages of his theories with snarky comments sprinkled in is entertaining. I need to find something better to do with my time when stuck in the city lol.
Posted By: Forrestgump1

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/15/22 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by redgineer
Originally Posted by rhino21
Originally Posted by Pwyse
That’s one heckuva woman



do you actually have anything productive to add to the discussion or do you just like to add insults? It's the latter if I had to guess but please enlighten me

My favorite part of CNC threads is the way he plows through all the hate and keeps on rambling. Reading 5 pages of his theories with snarky comments sprinkled in is entertaining. I need to find something better to do with my time when stuck in the city lol.

I’m a fan, after all that’s what this place is for. Agree or disagree, I like to talk about different theories or ideas as to xyz. I think he’s a lot closer to the truth than some of y’all realize, even if it goes against what we think we already know.
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/15/22 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
Originally Posted by CNC
If we could go back and have a do over with our restocking…..I think we might have been better off to have restocked the lower third of the state with deer from Clarke Co……..the middle third of the state with deer from Sumpter Co……and the upper third from a source like Cades Cove with a December rut. What would really be interesting to know is how many native does still existed across the state at the time of restocking. There is the possibility that some of today’s bubbles grew back from native doe herds. The extreme northeast corner would be a likely suspect for it.


We agree!!!!


Who the hell was it that made that call??? grin ........Oh wait........ laugh
Posted By: Pwyse

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/15/22 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by rhino21
Originally Posted by Pwyse
That’s one heckuva woman



do you actually have anything productive to add to the discussion or do you just like to add insults? It's the latter if I had to guess but please enlighten me



This whole thread stopped being productive about page 5. But if you go back and read the entire thread you will see that I was asking questions and adding to the conversation. That was before it went off the deer bubble zone deep end.
Posted By: rhino21

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/15/22 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Pwyse
Originally Posted by rhino21
Originally Posted by Pwyse
That’s one heckuva woman



do you actually have anything productive to add to the discussion or do you just like to add insults? It's the latter if I had to guess but please enlighten me



This whole thread stopped being productive about page 5. But if you go back and read the entire thread you will see that I was asking questions and adding to the conversation. That was before it went off the deer bubble zone deep end.


been here the whole time and stand by my original statement!
Posted By: CNC

Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff - 12/15/22 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mbrock
[We agree!!!!



You know what’s really ironic with this starting out as a buck to doe ratio discussion………and I’m not saying that this is the realistic solution but just what’s theoretically possible……. The way things exist now, the way for us to see the most defined rut across the most acres would be through pushing each bubble to max doe capacity……….That would reduce the size of the variance zones to their smallest amount of space……For example, that last variance zone I pointed at one either side of I-59 would become more and more narrow running parallel to the interstate the more maxed each population became......taking habitat breaks into consideration. If you want to recommend for someone to shoot does then you would have the folks in the variance zones do it and let the population expand from the more conformed center. Again, though that’s just pointing out some theoretical stuff that’s technically possible on paper but likely not so much in the real world.

What IS likely very possible though and what would likely achieve a better balance for all is if you just worked with the major players in each bubble and get them to stop with any heavy doe harvests……Let them be the producers for the bubble and the smaller guys be the moderators. That’s really not that hard to do. I know of about 5 properties in Macon Co that would support the whole system for that area if they all stopped trying to achieve any annual “doe quotas”……There will always be folks out there who will keep shooting them. That would basically be creating the exact same scenario described in the first paragraph…..Bubbles with growth in the center, moderated on the edges.... That would create pretty good happy medium I believe where management is looked at on a larger scale than just individual properties …….Those are just ideas though.
© 2024 ALDEER.COM