Cull buck question

Do you consider a 2.5 year old deer with no brow tines a cull buck? If not, when does a deer with no brow tines become a cull? Or does it? A friend of mine killed a 2-2.5 year old 6 point that had no brow tines as a cull. I personally don't buy in to his line of thinking for such a young deer. In my opinion, the fact that he had 6 points with no brow tines, but was so young showed promise for the deer. I'm no expert though by any means. What do y'all think?

No expert here,but I read once that brow tines are the #1 thing that are passed from 1 generation to the next by a buck.I lived in an area once that had a bunch of deer with no brow tines,it sure made me think about what I had read.

I would have let him grow another year.

Here we go AGAIN!!!!

Funny how little you heard the term " cull buck" used back in the seventies and eighties.....

Wasnt no such thing... If the sucker had antlers on his head, we shot him and was dang happy about it.....

I think a "cull buck" is a person's excuse to shoot whatever they want.

We try to base it more on body weight and age characteristics than just antlers. If it is a large deer with apparent age that we have had on camera several years then we might take him out. We don't "cull" any young deer on purpose.

On my lease a cull buck cost $100.00. So not too many get killed.

Maybe we ought to coin a new phrase "Cull Hunter "

No young buck is considered a "cull" at my house.

Good idea- the idea of "cull bucks" is ridiculous for several reasons, let me count the ways: 1. At least half of the genetics of a herd lie in female deer, which have no antlers. 2. Read up on evolution, and see how long it takes for even a small change to take effect in a population... longer than any of our lifetimes, and surely not 10-15 yrs. 3. You can't be sure that a deer's poorly formed antlers aren't from an injury - which would not affect its genetics.

I think itchy trigger finger accounts for most of the cull buck activity

There is no such thing as a 2.5 year old cull deer in Alabama. I understand the part about it not having brow tines and probably a good chance it never will, but I've seen some bucks with out brow tines that I would have put on the wall, that never would have gotten that way had they been killed when they were 2. Besides that factor in the doe has as much or more to do with antler characteristics coupled by the very very limited control you have over a free ranging herd on a relatively small tract of land (I assume you are hunting less than 10,000 acres) and you killing that 2 year old with no brows will do nothing for you expect give you one less 2 year old to make it to 3.

I wouldn't use cull for any 2 year old in bama. I've also seen bucks with zero indication of brow tines throw some impressive brows at 5 or older. Also seen brows disappear. You never know what they'll do, but if they are dead.....then you know what they won't do with certainty.

Is that enforced even if the hunter kills an actual cull? About 20 years ago at one of the private school hunts in SW AL a hunter killed a 145 lb spike. Most of the other hunters were ragging the guy for shooting a future hoss deer, until the jawbone was pulled. The jawbone said the deer was a 3 year old.

What about spike on one side bucks? Still have to pay the fine?

I know the genetic makeup of the herd can't be changed by killing a true cull buck but it is one less mouth to feed.

Lucky you are not a biologist with that opinion - someone would be demanding that you post your resume to back it up

On my land I shoot all non-brow tined bucks and all bucks with a spike on one side and 3+ points on the other. I don't know about the long range effect on antlers, but it is a start and I don't get all crazy about "growing trophy" deer.

there are "cull bucks" . if i see one i will cull him . why would i let him walk to bred ?

I have pics of a spike from some land I was gonna lease last yr I would guess him @ 4+ ... I would call that a "cull buck" and would have shot him had I gotten the land asap to make sure he didn't breed. Imo to say there is no such thing as cull bucks in bama is crazy. Also to say it takes lifetimes to have an effect on the heard is nuts cuz if I shoot what I think is a cull buck before the rut then he can not breed. Therefore heard affected .... If I continue that on my land as long as I have it .... I will have better class of bucks after some time...

People saying there are no culls in Bama is a prime reason of our dynamite genetics around here. Go talk with some people who know how to grow big deer and do it for a living out west. They'll teach you how to cull.

all of em are cull bucks unless a cull doe walks out.

we typically try to keep it to 3 or better on one side. still have monsters on our property.

Most, if not all, free ranging whitetail bucks are culls. Genetically inferior in some form or fashion. So you have a few choices: 1) shoot em all, 2) shoot some of them, or 3) let them develop/grow to be the most they can be.
Unless you are high fencing and buying straws for insemination at $10,000+ a pop, your little trigger finger is not going to change the antler configurations in your neck of the woods.
A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. However, a mature deer has done all he is able to do and I can appreciate and respect that not all of them are going to be B&C, but are "trophies" none the less, regardless of antler configuration.
Cull, is a four letter word of meaningless significance in free ranging deer herds.

Here's what I believe. If your going to call a 4+ yr old buck with undesirable horn chacteristics a "cull" thats fine by me, I've always just said they were mature deer and am always happy to kill mature deer. However, I believe using the term "cull" on a deer that is relatively young that you have only watched for one year is an incorrect statement. For one, you have no way of knowing what caused the said deer to display a specific horn characteristic for that specific year. I have seen plenty of deer, like others have said, that may have a good side and a single beam on the other or doesn't have browtines or any other undersirable trait, turn into to some really good deer when given time to age. The irregular horns could be from a genetic defect or it could simply be from an injury, you have know way of knowing this from a single citing or from one year of pictures.

Even if you do decide to take the 2 1/2 yr old buck that displays undesirable characteristics, I don't beleive you've done anything to change to genetic make up of your herd. Even if you kill every one that you see like that your not going to kill them all, your not even going to come close to even seeing half of them. Like others have said,the other half of the gene is carried in the doe so I'm not sure your plan to irradicate that. Deer in general can travel a long way and even if you kill a "cull" buck there will be another one right there to take his place. I don't believe you've done a thing to change the gene pool long or short term and your doing nothing but wasting buck tags trying to accomplish an unrealistic goal.

When I say "goal" I'm assuming your trying to kill big bucks since your "culling" the undesirable young bucks. I just think that there's a lot better ways to improve the quality of a deer herd besides culling bucks. Instead of spending your time "culling" bucks, why not spend it improving the quality of the habitat that your hunting. Doing that and letting deer age to maturity will provide way better results in the long run in my opinion.

some tell me killing one coyote don't help but i don't buy that enough .

Is there any scientific evidence to support the idea that a lack of brow tines is a genetic trait, whether or not that trait is expressed in the deer? Have scientists been able to isolate the brow tine gene or the G3 gene?

No, A 2 year old 6pt with no brows is not a cull. Or is a 2 year old 6 with brows. IMHO not many can be labeled culls at 2-2.5. Only a very few ,and would be very obvious.

Well experts say you can kill 75% of the current yote poulation and their numbers will be unchanged by next year.

In my opinion culling bucks is absolutely beneficial for your property but not for the reason most of you are debating. No matter how many acres you own, unless its high fenced, a high percentage of the bucks on your property will have home ranges that extend beyond your property lines. Lets say hypothetically you own 300 acres. You put out a few cameras and find that you have three 3.5 yr old bucks spending most of their time on your property. Well the buck with largest antlers is not necessarily the dominant buck of the three. In this scenario the buck with the least desirable rack may very well be the dominant buck when they turn 4.5 the next year and wont tolerate the presence of the other two bucks. By shooting the buck with the smallest rack you increase the odds of keeping the larger racked bucks on your property by reducing the competition for territory among their age class. It doesnt guarantee they will stay on your property but it helps. Think about it how many people have gotten pictures of 2 or 3 year old bucks some with potential and some not so much. a couple of years down the line you get a picture of the one of the "not so much" bucks and the bucks that had potential are never seen again. All bucks that you let reach maturity are going to establish a territory and defend it, why let scraggly poor racked bucks set up shop on your property and potentially run larger racked 3.5 year olds away. Thats why you cull not because you think you can manipulate the gene pool of the entire alabama whitetail population by shooting a buck with short brow tines.

A cull buck is any buck my buddy Chuck shoots after he realizes he shouldn't have shot it.

and i'll tell them a dead coyote don't eat . a dead cull buck can't bred .

sorry about ASKING to see your resume - you were blowing such a loud horn i wanted a picture of the truck before i got run over too

so you know , this is what i consider a cull to be for my area . if i can help it i see no need for him to stay in the population . this is last year picture taken after season .

http://bamahunter.com/102.JPG

http://bamahunter.com/103.JPG

I'd shoot him

Frankie, he looks old and ugly, bang!

X a billion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's "Trophy" deer mgmt and "Quality" deer mgmt. Culling a 2.5 yr old buck, IMO, is just an excuse to shoot a buck. Besides, that's "TDM" and pure "TDM" requires MUCH time and money and resources most of us don't have the stomach to practice. It is my opinion that the harvest of mature bucks by mature hunters should be the goal depending on harvest numbers. Taking a few immature bucks out of a herd won't hurt it. A "GROUP" of hunters all killing immature bucks will hurt a herd! All "mature" bucks are trophies!! ....sorry, I get off on tangents!!!

Could you share the source of your research with us?

I would like to see the scientific studies you base your opinion on. I'm not interested in magazine articles.

Most of the deer management studies I've read conclude that having a balanced age structure of male deer is best. Why would you target only the older males if you want a balanced age structure?

I don't have anything to add to this thread, just wanted to post on it......

carry on...

troy

Cook and Gray's Biology and Management of White-tailed Deer in Alabama

Can't a dose of lead accomplish the same result?

That deer in the pics is not a young deer and definetly very mature. He might even be well past his prime and in decline. Look at that big toad body, the mass and beam length of that old warrior is "trophy class" to me. Now he will not score well, but he has lived to produce all he could be and I for one would consider him impressive, not a cull.

old deer ??? that's is not a old deer

That is 1 BRAZILLION PERCENT CORRECT... Couldn't have said it better myself. I WISH I had about 3 more in our lease that could explain this to other members besides just myself trying to get them to understand that... Excellent Excellent post...

And off topic a little but you are right down the road from me if you're in Pace...

nother picture

http://bamahunter.com/207.JPG

What would you call a "Balanced" age structure ? I am not going to get in to a pissing match about it but if you are saying you should try to maintain (I'm going to be realistic for Alabama) a 4.5 yr old buck age for your whole property that is never going to happen with new buck fawns being born every year. If you let your 2.5-3.5 yr old bucks live and thrive and shoot 4.5 yr old bucks or older, your younger bucks will graduate in to that age class the following year. Its honestly a pretty simple concept, if you manage your habitat, control predation to ensure good numbers and let the younger deer have a chance to reach that age desired age class, you will always have that age class filled of the bucks you shot that year. Its just like high school grades, you will always have a Senior class even though the previous year Seniors graduated (got shot in the case of bucks). You will always have a Junior class, a Sophomore class as well as a Freshman class. So having a balanced age structure, if I am understanding it correctly as you quoted, isn't a practice you can have if you plan on having quality deer year after year... I may have missed your point of "Balanced age structure" but your statement of "why would you only target the older males if you want a balanced age structure", lead me to the interpretation that I just explained...

If cull bucks have poor racks , how do you identify cull DOES ?
Since 50% of traits come from the doe. How do you ID a cull doe ?
By killing the buck you have only solved 50% of the problem.See how ridiculous this is ?
The way to effect antlers is age and nourishment, not a trigger finger.

QDMAV8R ,,,, thats a older mature deer here . last years picture also

http://bamahunter.com/046.JPG

Bingo...

This seems like the standard, "Ask ten guys a question, and you get fifteen answers that all seem to contradict themselves in one way or another" scenario....

Oh, and one more thing before I go feet my fat A**.. When a few of you talk about "a doe's genes are equally as important as a bucks genes". Dont you mean to say that a Doe's "carrying capacity" and overall health such as protein/vitamin content is equally important??

Wouldn't solving 50% of a problem be better than 0? Any improvement is a good thing. Agreed on age and food.

If antler traits are 50% heritable from the doe and 50% from the buck as you suggest, then killing the bucks with an undesirable trait would solve more than 50% of the problem. Those "cull does" you can't identify would have a greater chance of being bred by a buck without the trait (you killed the ones with the trait) so you would have a lower incidence of the trait in the offspring of those does. Do that another gerneration and you have an even lower incidence. Another generation and you have an even lower incidence. Eventually the incidence would be almost undetectable.

If your description of 50% from each sex is correct, then it is simple math.

Probablility and genetics are far from simple math.

With his 50% / 50% scenario and selection pressure over time, the outcome of that scenario is not that complicated.

.

True, not complicated, but more than likely wrong.

Without knowing if it a dominant or recessive trait, is the buck a carrier, but not expressing the gene and just hooked up with the right doe, do you kill every buck carrying, if not expressing, the gene for that trait every year, every doe, do bad or good bucks move in to take the place of those killed, same for does, ...

If one argues that is purely genetic, than without fully mapping the whitetail genome, and then knowing the DNA-makeup of every deer on your land, than it is probably an excercise in futility to think you can cull the trait out of "your" deer. If it is not purely genetic, but rather influenced by other factors, age, habitat, stress, injury, then one will probably not be able to shoot his way out of the trait either.

Hmmm, interesting theory, but way too many unknowns. How do you know which buck is dominant? What if the buck with the biggest horns is 3.5 and is also the dominant buck? What if the 3.5 year old with 110" horns isn't the dominant buck and what if he could put on another 20" from 3 to 4 making him a 130"? If you let him walk you might then have a 150" 4.5 and a 130" 4.5 year old. The only way to consistently kill good bucks is to hunt property that has a good number of good bucks. Mature deer are too hard to kill to put all your eggs in one basket by eliminating as many "inferior" 3.5 year olds as possible. I'd rather take my chances and likely hold a higher number of mature deer than try to manipulate middle age bucks with the intent of only holding mature bucks with the best genetics. I only see that working in a fenced area. All that being said, the original post was in regards to a 2.5 year old and IMO 99% of 2 year olds should walk.

I am discussing the scenario he presented. No doubt it is more complicated without knowing the particulars of how the trait is inherited. There is also no doubt that if it is a heritable trait, removing one animal expressing the gene will make a difference. It is the degree of difference that is in question.

I didn't ask for another opinion... I asked for scientific evidence supporting bucktrot's opinion that "killing younger (cull) bucks harms the herd".

If there is no science to support that opinion, then let's face that fact and accept it as speculation.

In a perfect "All knowing" world, yes... But how do you know without a shadow of a doubt that the buck you are "culling" is a genetically "inferior" deer, past injury, poor diet or another of the 100 factors that could cause the less than desired antler growth that year ? Imagine trying to get 20 guys in a lease to ALL agree to what a "Cull" buck is. I can GUARANTEE you that unless you had a lease full of Brian Murphy's, Brian Kinkel's, Steve Ditchkoff's or Grant Woods, its NOT gonna happen...

It's an odds game. If antler traits are a heritable trait, you can only do your selection based on expression of the traits.

If antler traits are not a heritable trait, why is the semen of a pen raised buck displaying huge antlers worth a pile of money?

Agree with this. There is no way to look at a buck one season and tell that he's a cull buck. You need at least two season's worth of data so that injury, drought, etc can be eliminated for a deer's poor rack one year.

Bottom line...I'd be willing to bet that 95% or more of what's shot as "cull bucks" should have never been shot under that premise of being a cull buck.

You answered your own question, it's an odds game... I've never seen a vile from a breeder buck that says guaranteed 300" buck in this specimen...

And the visual expression of a trait is the only thing you can go by to put the odds in your favor as much as is possible anyway.

Don't forget that many of those stressors...a drought for instance, would expose all the deer to the stress and not just an individual.

I don't believe in the whole cull buck thing for the most part because it isn't about antlers to me, but if it is a heritable trait, you can manipulate it.

Your saying sounds good, but no, it is not if you don't know why you get what you got.

Agreed Spoiler, I hunt private, owned property with limited pressure. Sometimes I loose sight of trying to manage a lease/club. When making post I need to try and remember, my management tactics will not work for everyone. I have hunted clubs in the past, trying to get more than 3-4 on the same page is tough.

I agree 100% attitude is everything. I have spent a lot of time watching certain bucks and notice that everyone is different, just like people. Some only rub certain tree types, some make heavy rublines, some rarly leave sign... etc. The ones that take over and area do so mainly with an aggressive attitude. In my own experience, the bucks that have the worst temperment, the ones that act like bullies, are usually ones that have less than desirable antlers.

Is antler development a heritable trait or not? And if not, why the high dollar price of semen from bucks with superior antlers?

Not only that, but research distributed by our biologists correlates increased B & C scores with superior fitness in other traits...

http://outdooralabama.com/hunting/hunterresources/articles/antlerdev.cfm

Good article in recent QDMA mag about what makes a dominate buck, attitude and body size. Age and antlers much less. They sawed the antlers off some of the bucks in pens. Good read.

Frankie, I think the deer looks to be atleast 4.5/5.5 in that last years pic. Maybe even older. Since he is displaying a good bit more antler in that last year pic and a little more toned body composition I suspect he is older and going down. It could be due to habitat stress, but the other bucks in the pic don't seem to be suffering. In this years pics he appears to have a sagging posture and lots of loose hide, signs of lost muscle (aging). I guess that it is possible that injury or disease could be causal, but my gut tells me that he is an older deer. I am also assuming that this deer is from the Tallassee area and I am very familiar with deer from that area. What is your take on the deers age?

I didn't say that it wasn't a heritable trait that couldn't be manipulated...or shouldn't be, for that matter. I simply stated that the average hunter can't judge a buck to be a "cull" in one year's worth of sightings. Too many other variables that could have affected that particular deer to be sure of it actually being a cull.

To what extent antlers are inherited (50/50 buck:doe or some other ratio?) is still an unknown according to the Readers Digest version of studies I have found. But what I meant by what I had written is without knowing what the DNA donors look like how do you know how big of an impact you are having by taking out the malformed buck? What if you got some does with riff-raff DNA running around on your property?

Also, you keep bringing up the breeder bucks, which made me wonder - why do they have "management" or lesser cost bucks inside high-fence operations? Shouldn't they have shot those genes out since they in theory have absolute control over the DNA inside the fence?

It would be interesting for a county or several contiguous counties to do a multi-year study where only spikes on one side or no brow bucks were killed to see what the outcome would be. Take the "bad" out and let the "good" racked bucks propagate their DNA and then see what the herd looks after several years.

They have management bucks because they haven't shot those genes out but they are working toward it as best they can.

It doesn't mater if it is inherited 50/50 or some other ratio. I'm not saying how big of an impact you will have...I am just saying that you will have an impact.

How did we breed hogs to be fatter when we didn't know the swine genome. We bred fat hogs to fat hogs. Maybe some of the fat hogs were fat because of better feed instead of genetics but over time the genetics still change. Later leaner hogs were more desirable and the trend went back the other way.

By killing deer with a certain heritable trait, you aren't eradicating the trait, you are reducing it's incidence.

one thing for sure the dead cull buck won't add to the problem .
a cull might pass his genes to 5 does in one YEAR , just to say . thats adding his genes to ten fawns .

to me it makes no sense to leave one in the herd ,,, a true cull !!!

That differs from your normal posts exactly how? Just kidding I ain't gonna touch this with a 20' pole - I predict someones going to end up having to post their resume before this is over

imo ,,,, his 3 1/2 maybe 4 1/2 ,, this year . 11/12 season

http://bamahunter.com/034.JPG
http://bamahunter.com/035.JPG

the post above of the older deer is about 5 1/2 or 6 1/2

first year he was a 8 point two years before that he was a 7 point . he added a point out front on the right side

i finished 10th made it half way through 11th grade with a GED some years later . that my resume ..... lol

Hey 49er.... if a high percentage of bucks are dead as a result of hunting (your mgmt style) in a given... say.... 3000 acres, and a large percentage of does come into estrus in about the same time frame, and if not bred, go out of estrus and back into estrus 28-30 days later and this cycle repeats itself, how long do you think the rut will last? Don't you think the LONG rutting period is detrimental to the bucks or what's left of them? How about the late-born fawn? Don't you think that the late-born fawn will have to endure a less-than-optimal browse availability so late in the summer and early fall?.... when the stress period is high? How about the doe? Don't you think she's going to suffer trying to keep up her health while at the same time trying to take care of one, two or possibly three fawns? I doubt three b/c that points to a healthy herd.

You know... it's not worth the argument to convince you 49er.

bucktrot,

That's all you got?

Maybe you should post your resume'. Tell us where you got your degree in hockeyology.

I don't always agree with 49er but I don't think there is anything wrong with being a thinking man and questioning what people tell you...even people that claim to be an expert.

Here, maybe this will spell out some "research" done on the King Ranch and other biologists... I'm pretty sure those guys at the King Ranch have quite a bit more experience dealing with this issue than most of us... The bottom line is, if you own your own land, do whatever you want. If you're in a lease, there is no way on God's green earth that I would be willing to turn 15-20 guys loose to "determine" a "Cull" buck. I personally know 2-3 people that I would trust to do that in a lease that I paid money to join.

http://www.ms-sportsman.com/details.php?id=306

What about the guys at Giles Island? They have experience too I guess. Also, the article says that the idea of a cull buck is a legitimate concept.

We aren't talking about someone making bad decisions. We are talking about if taking out a buck displaying a certain undesirable and heritable trait will change the incidence of the trait. Obviously it will.

You can argue this to death and what if this and what if that from now till the end of time. The guys at Giles Island are "culling" 125" deer, none of us will ever hunt places that you are doing that. Like I said, if it's your land, do what you want. But I have never been in or been a guest of a club that I would trust the whole membership to determine a "cull" buck and trying to change the genetic make up of a piece of property of free roaming deer, is impossible...

Yeah, 49er, that's all I have for you as it wouldn't matter how many studies I'd site, you would never believe anything that calls for hunter restraint. My issue with you isn't about culls. I support culling if it's done right and not an excuse to pull the trigger. From what I gather, you don't like any restraint on the killing of any buck of any age.

I gave up on you a long time ago, 49er. You're a consumer of wildlife and can't figure out these two words.... Limited Resource. You're the reason why we have game laws.

No disrespect 49er. I respect your right to have an opinion but not your right to kill at will.

You don't cite any studies because there aren't any to back up your speculation about "culling".

You aren't helping your credibility when you make such statements that you can't support with credible evidence. Instead of making false accusations about me (which is disrespectful, btw), why don't you try either looking for something to share with us that supports what you say or quit saying it?

*********************

My response - but I want to keep it short but there is so much to say about this subject.

Anyway, I'm going to cut-n-paste here but here's my philosophy taken from the QDMA website, to which I have been a member since 1994.

Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints. This approach typically involves the protection of young bucks (yearlings and some 2.5 year-olds) combined with an adequate harvest of female deer to maintain a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions and landowner desires. This level of deer management involves the production of quality deer (bucks, does, and fawns), quality habitat, quality hunting experiences, and, most importantly, quality hunters.

A successful QDM program requires an increased knowledge of deer biology and active participation in management. This level of involvement extends the role of the hunter from mere consumer to manager. The progression from education to understanding, and finally, to respect; bestows an ethical obligation upon the hunter to practice sound deer management. Consequently, to an increasing number of landowners and hunters, QDM is a desirable alternative to traditional management, which allows the harvest of any legal buck and few, if any, does.

In reading many post you've typed on aldeer.com 49er, you're against any restrictions/restraints/laws/management etc... when it comes to fish and game. Which leads me to ask... why don't you start a brand new thread and title it: "49er's philosophy on fish and game management." And, if you support laws regulating such, state your general foundation for fish and game laws.

Let me say this, I'm not a biologist. I'm also not a doctor, nor a builder, nor a farmer. HOWEVER, it's not hard to acquire a GREAT deal of knowledge on those subjects if you have the DESIRE and are willing to accept the general foundation/principles of a majority of educated practitioners in that field of study. So, armed through education, I can treat many of my own illnesses, maintain my own health, build a structure, take out a wall in my house and successfully plant my own garden and I don't mean just throwing seed in the ground but soil samples and having the best soil I can have for growing what I want!

With that said 49er, I accept what would be considered the general foundation and knowledge of hundreds of thousands of educated individuals in that field of study. But, I'm sure you'd ask your doctor for "studies" when he/she tells you that you need to have surgery to fix your broken leg with bone sticking out!!

So here's what I believe and have generally accepted as truth:

I do not "trophy" manage for deer. I "Quality" manage and there's a difference.
Immature bucks are very easy to kill, "IF THEY EXISTS and haven't already been killed."
I believe that a group of hunters on any given piece of property, without restraint, can kill a majority of the immature bucks on that property.
I believe that mature does in a given location, all come into estrus within the general timeframe. ***For the past two decades, studies conducted at UGA have attempted to unravel the mystery of how an estrous doe advertises her readiness to bucks in the area. Given that estrus or the “heat” period occurs only once per month and lasts only 24 to 36 hours.*** - Brian Murphy, Biologist and Director of the QDMA.
If there are not enough bucks to breed all the estrus does, the does go out of estrus and come back into estrus 28-30 days later. (I'm not wasting my time to quote a study on this and the fact that I'm saying it 49er, should spur you to research this statement if you disagree!)
This has been referred as the "second rut" and the aforementioned is repeated at least three times, maybe more but I am not sure what happens if a doe isn't bred! Found out and let me know 49er!
The 2nd/3rd estrus cycle adversely results in fawns being born later in the year thus forcing the mother and fawn to be exposed to less nutritious browse b/c as you know 49er, as the year goes along, browse starts to burn up as droughts occur and the plants' growing season plateaus. You do know 49er that a "growing" plant is more nutritious than a non-growing plant, right? No study to back here but again, research it if you don't believe me!

Let's talk about a lengthened rut and the stress it causes on the few bucks in your herd that are left. Which had your rather have. A condensed rut where most all does are bred on their first cycle and all does are bred on their 2nd cycle and the bucks can get back to eating and eating and maintain their health. OR... a long rutting process where bucks rut (bucks had rather go without eating than miss out of breeding. That's not hard to believe is it?) This long rutting process takes its toll on bucks for reasons I shouldn't have to quote.

Let's talk about the late-born fawns as a result of does being bred 30, 60 and 90 days after their first estrus cycle! Poor nutrition and stress on both mother and fawns. I'd rather have my fawns be born as early as possible (gestation period approx 200 days) than during the absolute stress period when browse is burned up and the acorns haven't dropped yet (if there's an acorn crop). These late born fawns have to play "catch up" and let's say the fawn is a buck... he'll go into the spring green-up with a lower body weight and will be behind his counterpart who may have been born much earlier and gotten the jump on him b/c of obvious reasons I should not have to point out, 49er.

I wonder what a really late-born fawn buck will look like and what kind of antlers he'll have his second fall. Afterall, he entered the spring way under weight and smaller than his buddy who was born two/three months before him! Would he be considered a "cull" to some people? It is believed that the late-born fawn does, eventually, catch up but wouldn't you want to alleviate late-born fawns altogether?!?!?

Spoiler had a great example of the age structure of bucks... Graduating seniors of high school always have a recruitment of juniors that will take their place when the seniors "graduate".

I can tell you this and you don't need a study.... immature bucks are very easy to kill. (Again, but only if they exists!!!!) Mature bucks are very hard to kill and the only way to increase your chances would be to have more of them!!

A sex balanced deer herd is important. Nature already slants it in favor of bucks as, if I remember that study I can't quote, bucks make up 51% of fawns. There are other studies that support the greater mortality of bucks and no, I can't quote them but conventional wisdom would support that belief.

Here's the difference in you and me 49er. I am more concerned with my deer herd's health and well-being more than my desire to pull the trigger. But I know this.... when I have a healthy deer herd and a sex-balanced deer herd with acceptable age structures of bucks, I know my hunting experiences will increase and I don't have to kill a buck to enjoy a day in the field.

Deer hunting is kinda like being married and being unselfish. If you both give, give, give to each other instead of always wanting to take, take, take.... what you get out of it by "giving" far outweighs what you'd "take" in the first place.

But here's the guarantee.... Mother Nature always holds up her end of the bargain whereas your marriage partner may not!

Give me some good information that supports placing restrictions on killing bucks in an attempt to create a "balanced age structure" as opposed to "culling" in an attempt to improve the genetics of the remaining deer.

Let's discuss both the benefits and the "harm" that results from each of the practices.

If we need to discuss it in another thread, that's fine.

I'm not a fan of "culling" but I guess it has its place. In Trophy Deer Mgmt, which I don't practice b/c I don't have the money, time or land ownership, culling is a part of the plan.

In Quality Deer Mgmt, culling is less important and my focus is more on a healthy deer herd and the killing of mature bucks.

Let me ask you this: How hard is it to kill a 1.5 yr old buck? I have to footnote this... "If he exists."

What are your thoughts on does and estrus cycles?

Gestation periods?

Thoughts on the peak and valley regarding browse. I.E. Green-up to dormancy?

What happens to a deer herd which is unbalanced heavily toward does?

Let's go from there.

Let's take it to another thread.

I'll start it off with the title: "Discussion of Options"

LOL!! Oh, heavens!! Here we go!

"Hey Baby!!! I may be a while!! I know, I know... there are tons of things to do around the house and this is my first weekend home. I'm sorry!!! OK... I will get to it soon!!!"

49er, I really don't have time for this!!!

I understand. Life must go on.

I've got time restrictions on my posting, so it would eat up too much of my time trying to have a decent discussion anyhow.

Take care,
Eddie

OK... I'm leaving town soon and have a butt load of things to do around the house.

Hey, we can agree to disagree and forgive me if I sometimes may sound sarcastic, which I don't mean to be.

I'll be out from Aldeer for a while.

Hope your season was a success, Eddie.

I actually asked this question on another board. It was more geared toward the harvesting of spikes because I stumbled over this research done in Texas.
Deer Study

I don't have a problem with culling... if it's actually legitimate. However, to use a term from many biologists, you need to first, plug the lowest hole in the bucket and in my opinion, culling isn't he lowest hole!!

Yes, culling takes place on a lot of game ranches but I believe those deer mgrs have addressed or are addressing all the other issues of deer mgmt by the time they start talking about culling.

I think there is some truth to the fact that a "late-born buck fawn" has some catching up to do and may only be able to push out spikes when he's 1 yr old. I would like some biologists to chime in on their thoughts.

Also, every buck here in Alabama ain't going to be a 150" 5.5 yr old. I'm very happy with a mature 125" 8 pt but heck yes, I would love to grow much larger bucks but I hunt leased land with other hunters and it's just really really hard to get everybody on the same page including your neighbors. I want to remain realistic but if there are some guys out there that need a hunting member willing to pass up a 3.5 yr old 125-130", I'd love that but you'd need a considerable amount of land and some very educated, patient hunters hunting "quality" land or with deep pockets for some major habitat enhancement!

I think if you really want to peel back the onion and shoot spikes, then you would first need to do fetal research studies to find out exactly when does are bred and what percentage are bred on their first cycle and second cycle, etc... Are these spike bucks a result of late born buck fawns getting a late start? Not just a "late start" but a late start topped with lower nutrition than the fawns born 30-90 days earlier!

Also, filling out hunter observation forms after each hunt with pertinent useable data; when do you stop seeing spotted fawns?, weighing harvested deer, pulling jawbones, keeping detailed records, taking soil samples.

Get your sex ratio as balanced as possible and see if that makes a difference and the mass shooting of 2.5 yr old bucks and younger will have to stop.

Sigh... so many other holes in the bucket that are lower to plug up.

In way too many places, high grading has taken place. Clubs may tout: "We're 8 pts or better!" Well, that's a start but in my opinion, the wrong start! Usually, a 2 1/2 yr old eight point walks out into a food plot... the kind of 2 1/2 you WANT to protect and the hunter looks at the buck's antlers and counts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, BOOM!!!! And down goes a 2 1/2 yr old pretty basket racked, "very dumb deer by the way", 8 pt. Standing beside the young 8 pt is a 4.5 yr old or older, very nice 6 or 7 pt and that bucks runs off... to breed.

I don't know what the answer is but aging deer on the hoof should be required of members by hunting clubs that want to manage. It takes a lot of practice and I'm not great at it myself but if I see a pencil-neck, 12" 8 pt walk out, I am not killing it. A first-time-hunter can, but I won't.

Talking about high-grading.... that has been practiced for many years on a lot of acres and it would be my opinion that it has negatively affected bucks' antlers.

Not sure you understood what I was saying. If your working in a high fenced area then dominant bucks cant run other bucks off your property so my theory doesn't matter. In Alabama you are going to see bucks that are 3+ yrs old that you know will never be high scoring bucks. I say cull those bucks out not because of any genetic traits they may pass down but because they will inevitably run off other bucks that could have the potential to grow larger racks. Everytime you harvest a mature buck a void is left that will eventually be filled by another buck. So in essence why would you allow a buck to occupy territory on your property if he is not of the caliber that you consider a trophy? I do agree that culling should only be done on bucks at least three years of age and even then only the bucks that your fairly certain dont have the potential they need. Of course you must first be certain that you have given them the nutritional foundation needed to fully express their genetic potential.

How long do you believe the general timeframe is during which the mature does come into estrus?

According to research (as quoted on the AL DNR website) higher Boone and Crockett scores are associated with greater genetic fitness such as a stronger immune system. Since you claim that you are most concerned about the deer herd's health, are you allowing the mature deer with the highest boone and crockett scores to walk on your property while taking those with the lowest scores? Since the antlers of higher scoring bucks are an outward exhibition of the genetic fitness of the buck, it would be best for the health of the herd to leave those higher scoring deer to pass on their superior genes.

Are you really most concerned about the health of the herd?

ok yall getting deeper in than i go . to me a buck got to pretty messed up (on both sides )to be a cull .

jlccoffee, I bow hunt and I didn't pick up a rifle all season and I shoot mature bucks and I'm indiscriminate on does. If the buck is a mature five point, I'll probably whack him. You're trying to paint me into a corner of being a "trophy" hunter, which, yes, I love killing big mature bucks with high scoring antlers, like most hunters but I practice QDM.

So to answer your senseless and ulterior question jlccoffee, my target is mature bucks no matter what size antlers he has but I'd rather shoot a high scoring racked buck no doubt. But I'm a bow hunter so I don't think I'm a threat to wiping out my herd's healthiest bucks.

Don't question my sincerity on being concerned about herd health and you can practice the killing of any age/size buck you want as long as you stay within the laws of this state.

Your analogy would be like saying if you love your kids, you would not whip them.

You are like everyone else. It has noting to do with whipping your children. It has to do with you hunt in a certain way that makes you happy. You use the excuse of "doing it for the deer herd" in order to try to force others to hunt in the same way.

It your were truly doing what is best for the deer herd...you would let those superior bucks go.

I'm still wondering how long you think the time period is during which the mature does come into estrus?

Jlccoffee, I am not trying to force you, or anyone else, to do anything. I practice QDM in the way the QDMA would practice it. If you don't like how I practice deer mgmt then you don't like how thousands of hunters and a majority of states practice deer mgmt.

Make sure to not move or hunt in such states as Kentucky as they're much, much more restrictive than AL!

When someone such as 49er attempts to discredit QDM and what thousands of biologists nationwide, institutions of higher learning, etc... have compiled, I am going to speak up as this is a discussional site.

In the end, I support conservation and doing what is best for wildlife and when I do that, I and maybe YOU, or somebody is rewarded, including the deer.

Do you know the difference in conservation and wildlife management? We don't have an Alabama Department of Wildlife Management. When you advocate mandatory rules to implement wildlife management, you certainly are trying to tell other people to conform to your preferences. Qdm in it's original form started out with principles advocating voluntary participation. Then the QDMA was formed and it's members started pushing for mandatory wildlife management regulations throughout the states. I was a member of QDMA until they started that crap. That's when I told them to take me off their membership rolls.

There were very few deer left in Alabama when the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources was formed and delegated authority to conserve, protect and increase wildlife. Wildlife management authority was delegated to the commissioner only on properly designated wildlife management areas.

For someone who doesn't have time to furnish supporting evidence for the statements you make, you sure have had time to be posting a lot of other stuff.

Edit: I see you went back and changed your posts after you agreed to disagree.


There's no other way to describe that than calling it the lie that it is. Slander does nothing for your credibility.

I have consistently supported our game and fish laws that were written by our legislature for the purpose of wildlife conservation. Those laws do not authorize mandatory wildlife management on privately owned and leased lands.

I think what 49'er might be getting at is that you are blindly following QDM as espoused by the QDMA and other such organizations. They are making money off of people interested in their concepts so there is a potential for bias. 49er is simply asking to see the research that backs what you and they are saying, not articles from the popular press. So far, you have not provided much if any.

If those biologists are following scientific principles, then there are peer reviewed articles out there for 49'er and others to see. Where are they?

Like your example with the doctor. Do you want your Dr. to set that broken bone if the research says the outcome is more likely desirable if your particular break is simple splinted? You don't want a Dr. doing what he thinks is best...you want him to do what has been proven IS best.

Don't forget, many biologists also used to tell us not to shoot does. Many also used to tell us coyotes don't take many fawns. Now some research has been done (and you can find articles such as the Fort Rucker study) and at least in that case, they were taking a lot of fawns.

Still haven't heard about that time frame during which the mature does come into estrus?

[quote=Bucktrot]Jlccoffee,
When someone such as 49er attempts to discredit QDM and what thousands of biologists nationwide, institutions of higher learning, etc... have compiled, I am going to speak up as this is a discussional site.

quote]

Where is this research compiled? So far you have only said what QDMA says...you haven't showed a single scrap of research to back it up.

He only has time to slander me and repeat what Brian Murhphy says. He doesn't have time to see if he is actually understanding Brian's theories correctly or if Brian's opinions are supported by scientific research.

I was there when Brian started QDMA branches in Alabama. I know what he advocates, and I chose not to be a part of his movement when he started pushing for mandatory participation. Now bucktrot wants to make me be a part of it anyhow by using unauthorized rules of the CAB to make me.

in captivity that is possible, in the wild not so much

pen deer are becoming more and more streamlined genetically, breeder does are considered top priority in breeding programs, does contribute MORE genetically than bucks
some bucks never produce offspring that even come close to their own antlers (30-30 comes to mind) while others produce much better than their own antlers

so until we can figure out those wild cull does, guess we're screwed


There are studies out there that prove this and QDMA had published some in their Magazine.

1 very wealthy landowner in particular, had 2 rather large parcels of land, 1 under fence in TX and 1 parcel free range in the midwest. After 10 years of exhaustive culling, the deer herd still produced so called cull bucks.

Certain areas I'd bet produce more so called culls than other areas, maybe 1 day scientist will figure it out. Probably has something to do with soil.

The King Ranch still has cull bucks, those big operations callem culls for some strange reason, those culls are the financial backbone of those large ranches.

QDMA does have many reputable Biologist, it's you that does not wish to agree and that is perfectly fine, but using your argument, stick to the facts, we here do NOT have the ability to change what you want changed.

I personally promoted buck limits, called who I needed etc... it's your right to promote a liberal buck season, go and express yourself at the CAB meetings.

The NWTF, DU, Pheasants Forever, Quail Unlimited etc... ALL have biased opinions as well as joe hunters.
QDMA took QDM and expanded upon it, yea they made money, it's the American way. Just like in your line of work, new things come to light and change previous well founded principles.

I remember Biologist and GWs against shooting does and the yote issue as well, that thinking was old school and came right out of Montgomery. Evidently things came to light.

Time frame for does coming into estrus??? what is meant by that question.

kinda loaded question there and probably depends more on which white tail sub species, a generalization would be once they reach maturity and then every 28 days til bred

carterjv,


I don't care to address a committee of the executive branch composed of hand picked members who have their minds made up before I get there. All my attempts to meet with the members who represent my district (Dobbs and Moultrie) have been unscuccessful. My contacts to the governor's office have been referred to the Commissioner's office. The Commissioner now refers my questions to the Department's attorney William Gunter.

I prefer to address our legislators who have allowed this group to assume legislative functions in spite of our constitutional provisions against it.

Constitution of Alabama 1901

(emphasis added)

We are seeing the results of a body of the governor's appointees being given the power to write rules that have the effect of law and then enforce their own rules. Then they act beyond their delegated authority and make up whatever rules they desire. That's a violation of the principle of "separation of powers" found in our constitutions and our legislators need to put a stop to it.

The AAPA was was written to provide legislative oversight of theses groups and then the DCNR was even excluded from it in matters related to seasons and bag and creel limits. That resulted in a clear violation of our state's constitution.

The only place the DCNR is authorized to implement wildlife management rules is found in Section 9-11-300 of the Code of Alabama that applies to wildlife management areas controlled by the state. If you don't think I have been in contact with our legislators, ask you representative if they have heard from me on this matter.

Here's you a link to an opinion I submitted to the Tuscaloosa News to read as well:
Opinion in Tuscaloosa News

Bucktrot,

I believe that you are a responsible, and well-meaning person.

But, your statement:



Is WAAYYYY off base!!!!!

The 'Limited Resource' that YOU are talking about is trophy bucks.....not deer.

The concept of QDM REDUCES the deer herd, i.e. 'consumes' it, so that the animals left become 'larger'. The more you kill, the more limited the resources.

You, along with many other well-meaning people, are spending way too much time worrying about the BUCK segment only of the population. And I honestly don't even think you realize it!!!

Thanks Danny.

You put it in terms that are simple, truthful and to the point.

Good post.

you nailed it, however the debate many have is carrying capacity and what that exactly entails , that too is a variable

hunters seem to think as everything being finite, it's not, nature is very fluid

Years of a plentiful deer food sources, the year following will produce more deer then predators the following year, nature cycles.

In WI the Grouse cycle on a 8 yr population boom, birds tend to be in the 8 year range, not sure about deer but I'd guess very similar cycles for whatever reason.

Waterloo's deer population is on the lower side of things right now, EHD breakouts have come more frequent of recent plus fetal census combined with poor crop production over the last few years has knocked them back.

No sweat though, deer rebound rather quickly and that process also for some reason produces bigger bucks, another bonus. Healthy deer and bigger bucks.

Thanks Hogwild, I am a responsible and well-meaning person.

If someone were to go back over the last 10 years or so of my postings here on aldeer, they would see that I am more interested in "mature" bucks and have explained the difference b/w QDM and TDM (trophy deer mgmt).

When a non-restrictive or non-selective hunter wants to discredit another hunter for his support of QDM and responsible deer harvest, the QDM hunter gets labeled as only interested in "Trophy" bucks.

I am just interested in "responsible" harvest of all wildlife.

This means killing does "if you need to" based on responsible data collection and the same goes for bucks.

Yes, I am well aware of yotes and predation and hunter observation and data collection could play a role in deer harvest and I realize locations differ.

If you would like to shoot some immature bucks off your property, by all means, do it. However, these immature bucks, if they exists, are easy to kill and you risk having an unbalanced sex ratio if you kill too many immature bucks and don't kill any does.

I support a balanced sex ratio with a balanced age structure and a "to capacity" deer herd.

I have the desire to be the best game mgr I can be, and I have the desire to seek out the best available information and that is what I practice in deer mgt AND I HAVE NEVER claimed to practiced TDM. I would jump up and down with joy with a 5.5 yr old 5 pt or a mature doe.

That's what I practice and I guess the bottom line which some hunters don't like is the restrictive "quantity" killing of bucks.

I am proud to say that if you want unrestricted deer harvest, you will need to convince thousands of hunters and many states.

I support QDM, and I am not alone.

I, as well, believe in the principles of QDM.

BUT, I also have common sense and realize that a 10 to 1 ratio of does to bucks coming in at the Processors for years now has had a detrimental effect on the reproductive capacity of the deer herd in MY area. When you further complicate that with the effects of coyote predation.....you are setting yourself up for failure.

And, in all honesty, if you are simply ONLY interested in mature animals, and feel compelled to drop the term immature often when discussing harvests, why does it matter how MANY there are in the population.....only the age, right??

I don't want to get into an argument with someone whose opinion and intelligence I respect. But, I think you are missing the BIG picture here in YOUR quest for 'mature' deer!

Hogwild, why do you think I disagree with you? I have never advocated the blind, mass killing of does!!! Based on the best available measurable data, and sometimes that isn't much, manage your deer herd with the deer herd in mind.

I can't understand how an educated hunter can support the unlimited, unrestrictive killing of immature bucks w/o consideration of what effects it has on the herd.

Do I object to a hunter shooting a young buck? ABSOLUTELY not! Do I object to that same hunter killing several young bucks per year and on top of that, bragging ab it? Yes. But only bc of what I know (based on the best available data, which is public knowledge) happens to a deer herd when there is an unbalanced sex ratio.

I understand that there severall scenarios and geographical differences.

Responsible game mgmt...that's what I support. I am open to listen to anyone. I just know that if you want to know ab a topic, go to the leaders in that particular topic and the QDMA is that. I also listen to Chris Cook w the state of Al. I am not saying that I blindly follow the QDMA. I have seeked out whitetail biologists and read and listened to what they say.

If you don't think that you need to kill does on your property, who am I to argue with you?

Thanks for listening. Gotta go.

That I think is where we differ. Don't listen to what a biologist says...ask him to show you the data.

If they do not have data and peer reviewed scientific references, it is just another opinion. An educated opinion maybe, but opinion none-the-less.

What effect is the lack of mature does having on the herd's balance?

Have any of the hard-core QDm'ers considered the consequences of having the vast majority of the DOE segment of the herd made up of immature females. From widely varying estrous cycles due to birth date, to lower conception rates, to lack of experience rearing fawns and dealing with predators, to ill-established pecking orders.....ALL which cause LOWER FAWN RECRUITMENT!!!!

If you have never considered these factors while considering harvest strategy....BUT, you do promote trying to harvest mature bucks......you need to wonder if 'Herd Health' is really your primary concern!!!

BTW, not directed at ANY one individual.......but, instead, a large collective group!

I wonder if fawns from younger does have lower birthweights?

most people I know that shoot does don't discriminate. I/ they kill does regardless of age as long as there is a need to kill does. I would agree that killing only mature does or only yearling does is a bad idea for the reasons you suggested. We killed 11 does this year. 2 were yearlings, 5 were 2.5-3.5 and 4 were mature.

I am in PA right now so I don't hv much time. My claim that I get excited ab shooting a 5.5 yr old 5 pt or a "mature" doe was basically saying that killing a "mature" buck OR a "mature" doe is not that easy (I bow hunt). I am excited when I can run a broad head through a mature doe... But any doe will do if I am after does.

"If" I need to kill does, I do not discriminate on age. And if a population is WAY overpopulated with does, I don't care what age the doe is.

I should have clarified that.

If a man were so inclined, and could afford it......he should visit the sites where the founders, biologists and administrators of QDMA hunt and check the deer density compared to the area they hunt. Also, check and see if the property is leased, or privately owned.....and how much pressure exists......and how much leverage they have in manipulating the habitat compared to the average leaseholder in AL.

Apples to Apples!!!

I can say this: if you're willing to discredit a whitetail biologist's or biologists' views, then you yourself have to discredit you own views. You would have to agree that the views of biologists would "and should" hold more credibility than your own. I am assuming Hogwild, jlccoffee 49er do not hold whitetail biology degrees.

I do not hold a degree in whitetail biology but I do not need to... Biologists are willing to share their views with me via print media, web, in-person talks, etc... and so why would I not listen?

I don't have a degree in biology, but I chose biology courses to satisfy my natural science requirements in both high school and college because of my interest in it. Fifty years of hunting experience in the same area may not impress you, but I think I've learned a thing or two along the way about the deer here that you and a lot of those biologists you read about have not learned about them.

You know as little about me as you know about the deer I hunt. I've gained a lot of respect for jlcoffee's opinions and even some of Danny's by comparing them to what I've learned thru the years thru application of the biological principles I've been taught and observation of the results. Application and observation is a large part of the scientific method of learning. Until you've had the experience that some of us older hunters have, you may think those biologists you are listening to are not letting their personal biases influence what they are teaching you. It might not be good on your part to exclude differing opinions without examining them more carefully.

I don't think you will find any learned biologists who honestly believe it is feasible to properly manage any species of free-ranging wildlife with uniform statewide rules. Probably not even those who supported the buck limit/antler restriction we have in place if the whole truth were known. There are too many non-scientific factors and variables in the mix. You will learn a lot more about politics and it's effects on all phases of your life as you grow older.

I also doubt if you've ever hunted anywhere near the area of west Jefferson and northeast Tuscaloosa County that is my lifelong stomping grounds. I've spent the better part of the last two days analyzing twelve years of data that has been collected from our hunting lease in preparation for a consultation with one of those biologists with a degree that you have a lot of respect for. So why not leave me and those biologists that I consult with to take care of my business here and I'll do the same for you.

I don't think you will find any learned biologists who honestly believe it is feasible to properly manage any species of free-ranging wildlife with uniform statewide rules. Probably not even those who supported the buck limit/antler restriction we have in place if the whole truth were known. There are too many non-scientific factors and variables in the mix. You will learn a lot more about politics and it's effects on all phases of your life as you grow older.

[/quote]

I completely agree. Basic regulations so that each property's individual management plan can be fine tuned by the landowner or manager based on the specifics of that property. Which can be determined by a biologist or the land owner or manager, not the state.

Is there any peer reviewed proof of lower birth rates of younger does?


Habitat quality will probably have more of a bearing on that than age of the doe.

Consider this quote from one of the sources below:




There's plenty of info about female social groups in whitetail deer if you look for it. Here are a few sources I found in just a few minutes to use as examples.


FINE-SCALE GENETIC STRUCTURE AND SOCIAL ORGANIZATION
IN FEMALE WHITE-TAILED DEER
CHRISTOPHER E. COMER,1 D. B.Warnell School of Forest Resources, University of Georgia, Athens, GA 30602, USA
JOHN C. KILGO, USDA Forest Service, Southern Research Station, P.O. Box 700, New Ellenton, SC 29809, USA
GINO J. D’ANGELO, D. B.Warnell School of Forest Resources, University of Georgia, Athens, GA 30602, USA
TRAVIS C. GLENN, Savannah River Ecology Laboratory, Drawer E, Aiken, SC 29802, USA, and Department of Biological Sciences,
University of South Carolina, Columbia, SC 29208, USA
KARL V. MILLER,2 D. B.Warnell School of Forest Resources, University of Georgia, Athens, GA 30602, USA
Abstract: Social behavior of white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) can have important management implications.
The formation of matrilineal social groups among female deer has been documented and management strategies
have been proposed based on this well-developed social structure. Using radiocollared (n = 17) and hunter or vehicle-
killed (n = 21) does, we examined spatial and genetic structure in white-tailed deer on a 7,000-ha portion of the
Savannah River Site in the upper Coastal Plain of South Carolina, USA. We used 14 microsatellite DNA loci to calculate
pairwise relatedness among individual deer and to assign doe pairs to putative relationship categories. Linear
distance and genetic relatedness were weakly correlated (r = –0.08, P = 0.058). Relationship categories differed
in mean spatial distance, but only 60% of first-degree-related doe pairs (full sibling or mother–offspring pairs) and
38% of second-degree-related doe pairs (half sibling, grandmother–granddaughter pairs) were members of the
same social group based on spatial association. Heavy hunting pressure in this population has created a young age
structure among does, where the average age is <2.5 years, and <4% of does are >4.5 years old. This—combined
with potentially elevated dispersal among young does—could limit the formation of persistent, cohesive social
groups. Our results question the universal applicability of recently proposed models of spatial and genetic structuring
in white-tailed deer, particularly in areas with differing harvest histories.

http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/38535/1/IND44328217.pdf




SOCIOSPATIAL CHARACTERISTICS AND GENETIC STRUCTURE OF WHITE-TAILED
DEER IN THE CENTRAL APPALACHIANS OF WEST VIRGINIA
by
BENJAMIN ROBERT LASETER
(Under the Direction of Karl V. Miller)
ABSTRACT
Despite numerous investigations of deer sociobiology and genetic attributes, the effects
of social organization on the genetic structure of white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus)
populations are not well understood. Furthermore, previous investigations of deer sociobiology
have typically focused on low-density and/or migratory populations. Given the considerable
behavioral plasticity documented in white-tailed deer in different demographic contexts,
sociobiological attributes among populations will vary accordingly. I compared sociospatial
characteristics and genetic structure of female white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus)
inhabiting a forested environment in the central Appalachian Mountains. I utilized an extensive
telemetry dataset for 127 female white-tailed deer captured during the winters of 1999-2002 on
the MeadWestvaco Wildlife and Ecosystem Research Forest (MWWERF) in West Virginia. I
delineated spatial groups of female white-tailed deer and used genetic measures to evaluate
spatial and genetic relationships. I also evaluated a genetic marker panel in the context of a
group of closely related individuals, and used this genetic information to retrospectively assess
the relatedness of both the deer included in an experimental removal and those remaining. My
results demonstrate that female white-tailed deer do not distribute themselves randomly across
the landscape of my study area, but are clumped into groups of spatially tolerant individuals. My
data also suggest that while the patterns of inter-relatedness observed in our study are consistent
with matriarchal social structure reported in previous studies, higher population density may
affect the composition of deer groups removed in spatially-based localized management efforts.
Overall, the rose-petal model of white-tailed deer population expansion applies to my study
population, but high population density forces overlap among matriarchal groups and may limit
the effectiveness of localized management efforts.

http://athenaeum.libs.uga.edu/bitstream/....pdf?sequence=1



Social organization in deer: Implications for localized management
William F. Porter, Nancy E. Mathews, H. Brian Underwood, Richard W. Sage and Donald F. Behrend
Abstract
Populations of white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) inhabiting many state and national parks and suburban areas have grown to the point that they conflict with human activities. Conflicts range from destruction of vegetation through browsing to public perception that diseases carried by deer pose threats to human health. Traditional modes of hunting to control populations are inappropriate in many of these areas because of intense human development and activity. This article explores an alternative approach for population reduction based on deer social organization. Female white-tailed deer are highly philopatric and female offspring remain near their dams for life. This suggests that a population expands slowly as a series of overlapping home ranges in a form analogous to the petals on a rose. Incorporating the rose petal concept into a model of population growth shows that removal of deer by family unit can potentially alleviate conflicts in localized areas for as many as 10–15 yr.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/v423w653463mp670/



Not a study, but good info to help you do further research:

Information bulletin
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR 1992
FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE No. 59
The Rose Petal Theory: Implications for Localized Deer Management

http://www.global-scientific-inc.com/tcru/kc/pubs/mathews/m54rose/54rose.htm
[Caveat: Research Information Bulletins (RIBs) are internal Fish and Wildlife Service documents whose purpose is to provide information on research activities. Because RIBs are not subject to peer review, they may not be cited. Use of trade names does not imply U.S. Government endorsement of commercial products.]

no conclusions yet, general hypothesis, whitetail deer research is in it's infancy and social studies are very new to deer management

most of that research is done in pens your rose petal theory was in free ranging deer

I've known of the social studies for some time, mentioned it here a few years ago, it's one of the newer applications in a sound deer herd. It started out as how to increase antler size and the effects socialization had on the development of antlers.

Nothing new, the quest for bigger antlers have always brought on the research of whitetail deer. Just like smiling Bob sold millions of vitamins to men.

I'll use your argument against buck limits, are we now justifying PETA and other anti hunting groups?

What you posted seems too indicate we need to quit hunting deer and reintroduce the Red Wolf. Let them do the killing and keep the deer population in check.

I was addressing Danny's question:


If you haven't read enough to cause you to take notice of probable unwanted effects of killing does indiscriminately as many qdm advocates do, then I won't argue with you. We don't think alike, and arguing with you is not worth the effort.

I think Danny shares my concern that removing too many of the mature does in a given area may seriously disrupt natural social groups that benefit the entire deer population, both male and female. I also believe that targeting only the best of the bucks has detrimental effects.

If you take time to think about it, those younger bucks that are left to fill the places of the mature bucks targeted in qdm this season become the main targets at the beginning of the next season. If they are killed before or during the mating period, the result is younger bucks being left with the task of mating. That would occur year after year if only mature bucks are targeted for killing. Natural predation does not target only the fittest members of a species, male or female.

I've never read anything published by QDMA that promoted indiscriminately killing does. Everything I have read published by QDMA regarding killing does has addressed the importance of site specific rules as well as the down side of killing only mature does or only fawns. In fact pick up the Oct. issue and it specifically addresses this. I don't have a dog in the fight, but I read their magazines and what they say and what you say the say seem to usually be two different things.

You are probably correct about there being a down side to only targeting the best bucks/ high grading, but what are the down sides of targeting only mature bucks? Lord knows no one is going to kill a high percentage of them anyway so if you allow your bucks to get older you are also allowing most of them to escape being killed by a hunter and so there will always be a good percentage of 4+ year old deer on the property. You are implying that if you target mature deer in year 1 then in year 2 there will be minimal mature bucks left to breed, so in year 3 most does are bred by yearling bucks. That isn't the way it really works.

td,


I haven't read QDMA literature much since I pulled out back in '04 when they changed from their philosophy of voluntary restraint in the killing of bucks to pushing for statewide regulations. In the meetings I attended back then, Brian Murphy regularly stated that the best does to kill were the first ones to present a shot. That's the defintion of indiscriminate killing of does as I see it. If that has changed, it was a needed change IMO.



Your QDMA literature should help you understand the benefits of having mature bucks before and during the breeding season. The down side of targeting only those mature bucks is that you are removing them and upsetting their social hieracrchies at exactly the time they are said to be the most beneficial. That may help explain the more defined rutting activity that qdm claims it creates. But does that activity indicate that more stress has been created by the voids that are created in the social orders, thereby leading to higher rates of post-rut mortality in the mature bucks that are left to sort out the disorder that has been created by the hunters before and during the breeding period?

If a hunter chooses to shoot a "cull" buck, chances are less that such a buck held a very high position in the established male hierarchy. Less disorder is created than if a higher quality buck was chosen and the genes of the "cull" buck are going into the freezer instead of into the new fawn that is fathered by the higher quality buck.



All property regardless of hunting pressure and population density?

You know it's not wise to make such an assumption. Without carefully considering the specific conditions on the property, you may be leaving a void at the top of the male hierarchy that is needed for your goals to be reached.



Let's see how it works:

5000 acres (approx. 8 sq. miles)

Population density is 20 deer per sq. mile. (20x8 = 160 deer)

Sex ratio is 3:1 (40 bucks, 120 does)

Percent of mature bucks 3+ = .45 (18 bucks)

Let's call it like this on the bucks we have to start with:

2 bucks 6.5 yrs. old
6 bucks 5.5 yrs. old
5 bucks 4.5 yrs. old
5 bucks 3.5 yrs. old

Goal is 4+ yr. old or better.
Hunting pressure is 40 members plus family and guests.

We have 13 bucks that we call "mature bucks" for all the hunters to kill. That's every buck we have that is 4.5+.

If only 6 "mature bucks" are killed, that leaves us needing all of our 3.5 yr. old bucks to replace them next year, and we are still one short of what we had.

When next year arrives, we have this:

Last year:

Started: / Finished:
2 bucks 6.5 yrs. old / 1 bucks 6.5 (1 post-rut mortality)
6 bucks 5.5 yrs. old / 2 bucks 5.5 (2 killed, 2 post-rut mort.)
5 bucks 4.5 yrs. old / 1 bucks 4.5 (4 killed)
5 bucks 3.5 yrs. old / 5 bucks 3.5 (no mistakes or letting kids kill < 4.5+) Sure!!

Start this year:
1 buck 7.5 yrs. old
2 bucks 6.5 yrs. old
1 buck 5.5 yrs. old
5 bucks 4.5 yrs. old
? bucks 3.5 yrs. old (predators, recruitment, disprersal, disease, etc. etc.)

We now have 9 bucks that we call "mature bucks" for 40 members, family members and guests to hunt beginning well before and then during the breeding season.

If we kill all the bucks from those 9 "mature bucks", where will we be next year, and how will the buck hierarchy look at that point?

Change the variables around any way you want them and see how it fits.

there is no such thing as a club with 40 members, family, and guests that kill only 4.5 and older deer. Ever. Ain't happening. There aren't 40 hunters in Jefferson Co that can live age a 4.5 year old buck.

Yer flawed from the start.....

Did you read the last line?

I didn't read any of it, I don't read threads with multiple quote posts, they give me a headache......

Here's you an emoticon for future use :




Waiting on an appointment and got time to kill.

thanks Eddie...

troy

First off, there have been studies that have shown that antler size has little to do with breeding. Some bucks are more aggressive than others and according to this study antler size seemed to be irrelevant. I know that's what you would think by watching Bambi, but that's not the way it really works in nature Your logic would also negate the reason to shoot culls anyway. Cause if they are a cull their probably not breeding, right? Not that I believe in culling, but just saying.

Second, your numbers just aren't realistic. Too many hunters and too many mature bucks killed. You also assume no new bucks move on to the property which is a false assumption. I would take the "9 mature" bucks left from year 1 and add a couple of mature bucks that moved their home range to your property. That's as fair of an assumption as saying that 3 mature bucks died of post rut mortality. You can make up the numbers to prove your point on paper, but this is nature we are talking about and the numbers will never work out that way. What if in year 2 their was a bumper acorn crop and only 3 mature bucks were killed, then where would you be year 3? Fact is all you can do, outside a pen, is look at real life situations and ALL of the properties I know of that only target mature bucks seem to have plenty of mature bucks year after year. Sure everyone will have a down year from time to time but so does the stock market...

Ya'll makin' my head hurt!

If a few bucks moved in from neighboring properties, don't forget that a few more might have moved off.

Don't know if fawns from younger does have lower birthweights. That's why I asked the question.

I would guess that they might be.

Habitat quality might improve the birthweight of the fawns born to all does, but I would still guess the fawns born to first time does on that habitat would be smaller compared to those born to thier older cohorts, especially if you compare singles to singles and twins to twins.

X2!

I haven't read this whole thread. I'm likely not smart enough to read it all. I did read the last couple of comments, one about fawn size.

I can't prove that deer have smaller fawns when they are young and larger as they age, but it stands to reason. Cows do that. Cows have their lightest birth weight calf for the first one, then they get larger until the cow gets about 8 years old, then birth weight starts decreasing again. That's not a particular cow, but rather cows in general. It would seem to me that would be pretty common with all species, but it may not be.

The reason that a cow gives birth to larger calves as she ages is because a heifer is still growing when she has her first calf, so she has to maintatin, grow and grow a fetus by eating. Each year her growth slows until around the age of five. Once she gets that age she only has maintenance and fetal growth to eat for. Seems logical to me that would carry over to a growing doe too, but that's not peer reviewed, double blind tested data, just a little farm boy logic.

49er

I agree to a large portion, I always argued at the club that we should let some of all age class bucks be killed each year. That set off a firestorm of exactly which 2.5 yr old buck to kill, trying to appease some in the club with protect all young bucks rationale. If you recall I had some major discussions with BSK at that time. Trying to find the BEST possible CULL Buck to put on the hit list.

We finally did away with fines on Button Bucks, guess what happened, we killed absolutely Zero BB's the next year.

Does are almost impossible to age in the field, some very experienced people might get it right most of the time in a good year. Always heard the grey on the nose deal, we aged many with gray at 2.5 yr old, not hard to age that class. Some young ones weighed more than average while some old does weighed less than average while being in really good condition considering.

About the does without fawns, I've seen 4 does come in like clockwork for 2 weeks without fawns. It was apparent they were of age to have fawns. Well finally the 7 fawns showed up with their moms.
I was just as upset during the 2 weeks cause at the time I was arguing pretty hard with my friend, a biologist that yote's take their toll on fawns.
at the time it was not accepted as factual.

I will agree that too many have become ravenous about how far to go with QDM, not fully understanding all aspects of it. Never forget an older fellow downing a kid that killed a 2.5 yr old 8 point with about a 15" spread, the kid was damn happy and his father was even more excited. This fellow kept talking about how that one should have been let go to grow.

The 3 buck limit is the answer to anyones goals as to managing their property. If you need to kill more bucks, take a kid or 2, there's the answer.

td,


Who said anything about antlers?



The better mature bucks are more likely to keep the less fit from breeding. Remove those better bucks and it's every man for himself again. Just saying.



I invited everybody to use their own figures. Have you done any of that before running your mouth?



How did you determine what I assumed about more mature bucks moving in or out of the property? I didn't say anything about it.

Like jlcoffee pointed out, I figure it's probably about even one way or the other, so I didn't consider that to be a significant factor.



So then, how did you get to the point of having everything figured out so perfectly in your own mind that you want others to be made to conform to your ideas? Numbers don't lie.

Play around with your own numbers that you believe to be realistic like I said. That's better than just cutting other people's ideas down so quickly before you do a little homework to back up what you're saying. Those numbers might reveal a little truth to you if you give them half a chance.

Suggestions:

Ask members of this forum at random how much property they have to hunt or manage, how many people hunt on it due to the costs and then look at the only deer density maps of Alabama that are available to us. Put together differenct scenarios and swap variables to see what changes and what is constant. Then do the math as best you can. You can refer to percentage by age class estimates of Alabama's buck age structure that you can find if you try hard enough. If someone you consider to be as ignorant as me can find it, then you shouldn't have any problems at all.

I dont' expect to see you on the forum for a while. You are a serious deer manager like you claim, so I know you will be doing your homework to get the bottom of this like a responsible manager that's sincere about supporting his opinions with good evidence and data to back them up. You don't take someone else's word without putting it to the test like a good scientists does.

I know it will take you a little time. I've tried it. So we'll see you back here when you've done your homework.

The problem with QDM is that people use that for an excuse to kill does. QDM clearly states that you need to kill does if your buck to doe ratio is out of kilter but you can also accomplish this by killing fewer bucks. The only other reason is if you deer density is at or above the carrying capacity of the land. That is it no other reason. If you believe in or practice QDM and you are killing does for any other reasons you are not practicing QDM you are using it as a ploy to satisfy your needs/wants to kill does. So if you are just please don't say you are doing it for the sake of QDM because you are corrupting the minds of young hunters and causing them to kill deer for the wrong reason. Just be honest with them and tell them we are killing all theses does because we can and that is what we like to do.

This was taken directly from the QDMA web site.

Myth 2: QDM Requires Killing Numerous Does

Many QDM pioneers have been quoted as saying, “Shoot every doe you can, and then shoot three more.” Such statements were generally true when spoken, but times and situations change, and as managers we need to adapt to current conditions. In the past, many programs benefitted from aggressive antlerless deer harvests, hence the recommendation to shoot all available does. However, as deer herds are reduced, similarly aggressive harvests are less necessary or advised. In addition, predator populations are increasing in many areas of the U.S. and Canada. Expanding coyote, black bear, bobcat and wolf populations are important mortality sources, and in some cases new mortality sources, for deer herds.

The take-home message is the appropriate antlerless harvest for a property should be determined locally. The local deer density, habitat quality, mortality factors (predators, winter severity, vehicle kills, etc.) and landowner goals all impact the number of antlerless deer that can or should be harvested. These factors vary annually and thus antlerless harvest goals should also be determined on an annual basis. Based on the above factors, some QDM programs will require large antlerless harvests, some will require moderate antlerless harvests, and some will require minimal or even no antlerless harvests. It’s as incorrect to state that all QDM programs require large antlerless harvests as it is to state that all hunters hunt from a vehicle, or over a food plot, or in a swamp.

mike,


Why do people feel like they need the QDMA to tell them what the right thing to do is?

I knew their teaching was screwed up when they were telling everybody to “Shoot every doe you can, and then shoot three more” at the same time the state was having to restock deer on 44,000 acres in the area where I had hunted all my life after it was leased from US Steel for a public hunting area. They hadn't hunted there. I had.

Now they want to try to change what they taught people to do? How do you know that what they are teaching you now will still be called the "right" way to do it within the next few years?

If they don't know what your current conditions are, how can they teach you the "right" way to mange your property?

They can't without doing it in very general terms that are as flexible as your "current conditions" are.

The trend has 'caught on' and will continue until FORCED to stop!

Hunters have been told for so long to shoot does aggressively and they will have big bucks, that it will take Regulations to reduce it.

Like it or not, that is the simple Truth. As I have already pointed out, if there was no need for the DCNR, we would not have it. And, like it or not, their role is NOT to be a personal guardian for YOUR property. Fieldwork involving the enforcement of Regulations and Laws should/is only a SMALL part of their actual role in Conserving our Wildlife!

13 mature bucks on 5,000 acres
Goal is 4+ yr old bucks for harvest
40 members plus family and guests.

Judging by the last sentence, none of your mature bucks will be killed unless one just slips up. Due to the excessive pressure created by putting 80 plus guns on the property (assuming that just 2 people per family membership hunt and not even counting guests)they will all go nocturnal. With a typical AL membership, you'll end up with maybe one mature buck killed by accident that chased a doe into a plot, probably a few 3 yr olds that people assumed were 4 based purely on antler size and a bunch of 2 yr olds once again based on antler size. Sad fact is, most hunters in AL don't know how to age a deer on the hoof and there is no way that you can find 40 members plus family and guests that even have a clue. You'll turnover a large number of your 2 yr olds each year, just a few of your 3's and maybe a mature buck or two every couple years. With 40 members, the mature buck population is not going to get hurt much at all.

You are right.

But, that is the reason why TDM is not feasible for MOST people/Clubs. Once you get the herd down to where TDM requires it; the opportunities actually go WAAYYYY down.

Not sure where all the well-meaning QDM'ers crossed the line to TDM; but it dang sure happened!!!

True and most clubs that claim to be TDM are really more QDM cause they are killing more 3 year olds than mature bucks. I know quite a few landowners and know of only 2 that practice and have been successful with TDM. Their goal is to kill mature bucks only (and some does) but they still make mistakes and kill a few really good 3 year olds every now and then. Both properties are several thousand acres and on a really good year they kill 5-7 bucks. Probably only 3-4 people hunt on an average weekend (landowner and friends). They have been doing this since the early 80's and continue to kill 140" plus, mature, 200 lb. plus bucks every season. I don't see a flaw in their system but I'm no expert or biologist. TDM is very very hard to achieve even with private land and just a few hunters. The hardest part is dealing with the time required to get to where you can consistently see mature bucks every season. You can't decide to be a TDM club and after 2 years of not killing a buck decide to quit. My guess is it would take 3-4 years of letting 3 year olds walk before you started getting numerous opportunities at multiple mature bucks. I would personally like to move toward this where I hunt but if everyone isn't on board 100% it doesn't work. My guess is on our place we will continue to kill a decent number of 3 year old bucks and a few mature bucks b/c right now the unwritten rule is if you kill it you have to mount it, so pretty much any mid 120's or better buck is going to get whacked. Hopefully down the road we'll agree to start killing based on age not horns, but either way we've come a long way and things are pretty good.

I agree a lot people say QDM but harvest the does like TDM and the and the bucks like QDM and then wonder why we don't see a lot of deer and don't kill bucks like we use to

2 really well put comments

I read some of these comments about QDM/QDMA and I am still shaking my head... The QDMA does NOT support and never has the over-harvest of does!! QDMA clearly states: "Determining the appropriate number of deer to harvest by sex and age is essential." What it does support is making deer harvest decisions based on recorded data and observations and not what Uncle Joe says should be done b/c he's sat in a shooting house every weekend for 30 years.

If your recorded data, hunter observations amongst other collected data demonstrates that you need to NOT shoot any does, DON'T Shoot'em!!!!!

Also, NEVER does the QDMA mention in its mission statement, "Trophy" bucks.

QDM means responsibly managing your deer herd as well as your habitat. Now, sometimes that means "restraint, discipline, hard work, pulling the trigger and NOT pulling the trigger, collecting data, etc..." and basically doing what's right for the deer herd and habitat and not necessarily doing what a particular hunter would want to do. However, the rewards are worth it.

And do not label the guy that criticized that young hunter for killing that 2.5 year old buck as the flag barer of the QDM/QDMA movement! He's not! Brian Murphy, the Director of the QDMA very much supports young hunters and he supports responsible harvest. Brian as well as me, would be jumping for joy at a young hunter's killing of a young 4 pt!!!!

There's not a better opportunity for teaching your children ethics and responsibility than "hunting", and doing the right thing and abiding by the laws and not being greedy when no one's watching! Such observations by kids looking at their father's ability to put down the gun and let ducks land all around when a limit has been reached. My dad is unfortunately dead, but I can damn well say that he was as honest and responsible as anyone could be as he demonstrated it in the woods and on the water in front of me and I hope my children can say the same about me.

Hunting should be fun and enjoyable but I'm happy and satisfied watching a young buck walk and don't have to kill it and cut the antlers off and throw in the back of my truck to check the hunt off as a successful hunt.

The QDMA has no problem with people killing immature bucks as long as "responsible" deer harvest is practiced. One hunter killing a bunch of immature bucks is not responsible deer harvest.

If any of you criticizing QDM/QDMA can go to the www.qdma.com website and find something you disagree with, post it. It would help me and other supporters of the QDMA understand where you're coming from.

I'm done with this thread as I can't continue correcting what has been the unfair labeling of QDM/QDMA, its supporters, it philosophy for the purpose of stacking the deck. Some of you throw unfair rhetoric around like liberal democrats.

I support the QDMA, its research, it mission, its members... There's no doubt that if you get a bunch of whitetail biologists in a room, they'll fight about all kinds of things regarding how to, what, when and where but there's one thing they all agree on and that's the betterment of hunting, our nation's deer herd and habitat. Oh, let's not forget education.

You're right Bucktrot, many confuse the actual guidelines that QDMA promotes. Some are believers in the ideals and some are not, some really get TDM mixed up for QDM.

EXACTLY!!!

And, many are confused about the difference.

I believe in the principles of QDM. Heck, most people would if the actually read it and understood it! But, for MOST of the people I know, they just use the acronym as a reason to shoot does!

Dang it Hogwild!!! I bet you and I would agree on many things. (I know, I said I was going to not post on this topic again but I can't help myself!

If they're shooting a bunch of does without good reason, then they're not practicing QDM!!!

That's my point!!! I 100% agree with you Hogwild that there are places where too many does have been killed and yotes are eating A LOT of fawns in many places around AL!!

I love seeing deer. I want as many deer on my property as my habitat will allow.

A common and shared philosophy Hogwild!

My point on the doe thing is very simple, not always are the signs being read correctly and this is not directed at you Hogwild.

We had some very experienced hunters on the lease that were worried once about deer sightings. Said they weren't even coming to the fields. They said there was not much if any deer droppings on the field so the deer were not using the fields. The club paid $500-600 for exclusion cages to be put on the fields as many as 3 per field depending on size. Within 2 weeks it was proven that there were deer and they were using the fields rather heavily.

This past deer season, 2 guy were not seeing any deer period. These guys seen plenty of deer 2 years ago, killed several good bucks, seemed to see bucks and does on every trip. They were biatching this season about not seeing any. Well the guy that wasn't seeing anything 2 years ago seen plenty of deer this season on the same tract.

Kinda weird I guess.

Only by keeping records every year especially daily hunter observations, things might make sense of what's going on. Going off memory is not a good way to figure out what is going on. We kept records for over 10 years while I was in the club, not sure what they are doing now.

Back to the culls, really no such thing unless in a true TDM program.
Arguments for High grading a herd re on both sides or least last time I looked at it.

You know, Carter......

You are right about many people just not knowing how to tell if there are deer there or not; and how to hunt them.

JUST LIKE I am right that there are numerous properties in our area not worth hunting due to the severe shortage of deer!

Funny thing is, even on the areas of extremely low densities, I can't tell a difference in the SIZE of the deer; just the numbers!!!

Anybody ever heard of the Point of Diminishing Returns????
Or, as my Dad always said, "Too much is just like not enough"!

There was a time, not long ago, that I heard several biologists say that we could not shoot too many does by legal hunting means. That seems to be changing. I don't fault a biologist or any other expert for their opinion or for stating their opinion but I do think they should always qualify that by letting people know it is only an opinion.

At the same time hunters thru legal means can not completely kill off a deer herd, it has been tried several times and hasn't happened. I even know of a small fenced in place that couldn't kill all the local deer, they tried every legal means.

Not sure if the Sandhills Project had wolves at the time they tried to legally kill off the deer up there.

The coyote's role has changed and maybe the biologist will include that into the equation now.

(emphasis added)

Read the whole study report here:
Survival Estimates of White-tailed Deer Fawns at Fort Rucker, Alabama by Angela Marie Jackson

The Fort Rucker study did show that the yote situation can present a real problem. So I'm guessing that while be instituted in the future.


Deer were killed off from unregulated hunting and during the Great Depression, kill them year around you will have a problem.

Deer reproduce rather quickly, the Northern and Midwestern strains that were introduced never did well, Ron Eakes did a long study on the situation at Bankhead. He never reached a definite conclusion but a well thought out opinion with several things being a factor at least the last time I talked with him.
Gonna miss seeing him now that he has retired.

Ruh..Roh....Raggy.....

Maybe, just maybe.......

Naahhhhh; nevermind.

It WILL take Regulations to slow the doe harvest. Maybe, after a while, it can be relaxed. But, people have continually proven their lack of self-control for centuries!!!

49er, I don't understand. What's your point? Again, within any discipline of study, varying factors are always present and are, for the most part, known about. Do you think the QDMA is oblivious to coyote predation? The QDMA suggests tools within data collection and observation that help uncover such variables as coyote predation.

If a piece of property doesn't need doe removal, QDM/QDMA would dictate that you don't remove any does.

I hope you're not insisting on painting the QDMA and QDM into a corner that INCORRECTLY labels QDM as a "doe killing" philosophy?

Bucktrot,

The people with QDMA were generally advocating heavy doe killing when I was there. If they are now advocating restraint in killing does, that is a new approach for them.

The Ft. Rucker study may have changed some minds.

Statements like these were not uncommon:

CAB Meeting, May, 2007 page 60


Similar statements were being made in the QDMA meetings that I attended.

why don't you pick up a couple of issues and actually read what QDMA is now saying in stead of telling us what you think they are saying? I know it wouldn't change your mind about QDMA but at least it would give you something else/ some other organization to go after.

they were saying assess the situation way back when I was a hardcore member and I was a member almost when they just started

The only reason I'm commenting on this thread, I really don't want some thinking they have a problem when they don't, this past year, bountiful acorn crop with warm weather is usually a season with low deer sightings.

Deer hunting 101

49er, what the QDMA was saying way "back then" was applicable. The State of Alabama went through an era where it was thought that you could not have too many deer! Through education and research, we now know differently! There was a time that we needed to whack some does! Lots of'em!

You didn't see that many yotes either (back then).

Adapt!!!!! Adaptation is ALWAYS in play. Things change. Manage the deer herd based on observation and harvest data along with habitat variations. Based on these things, shoot does if you need to or don't shoot'em! But make an "educated decision" and not some off the cuff decision.

Damn, I don't see how you can argue with that!

Thank You Bucktrot!!

I'm so sick of people complaining about this. Look I hunt in Kentucky and Missouri as well as Alabama. Kentucky's rifle season is just a few weekends a year. If the weather isn't right or any of the other factors that influence rutting activity, then your SOL, but you don't hear them complaining nearly as much as Alabama hunters who have one of the longest and most liberal deer seasons in the country!! If you cant kill a buck during the 3 1/2 month deer season then your probably not going to kill him if the season is extended a couple of more weeks anyway!

tiger87,


I see you still need to go to several other states to do it in addition to hunting during our liberal season.



I intend to help them keep it too. Qdm whiners need to get a life and learn to hunt and be happy.

Only commenting on the OP.

There *is* such a thing as "cull bucks" imo:

1. an obviously diseased or seriously injured buck.

2. an older than the hills buck already in decline.

3. a SOOS buck.

4. any racked buck that you see trying to hump another
racked buck.:)-

#5 ^^^ a 3.5 or older with 7 or less mainframe points.
I know, I know.